Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Terraformer · 2023-02-11 12:22:08

Oh I sent an email, no response yet. I may not get a response -- this is British local government, a four year publicly subsidised ego trip as Jim Hacker puts it in Yes Minister. I'll try a different one next; we have three for our ward, but I figured the Labour councillor would be the best shot since Labour are in the governing coalition. Always confusing about who to email. Worse with the parish council, with an eight member ward... Might be best in that case to just direct everything to the Mayor.

If I don't get a response, I think I'll do more digging and get some actual figures for expected costs to present to the parish council. As I said, the only body who's support is *necessary* to get this thing started is the school who's playing field it would be using, and perhaps the hotel which will no doubt be very interested in cheap hot water. The school wouldn't be using the system most of the time; even if it was undersized (because we have shortsighted people in this country who would cut costs like that) and so couldn't be used at the same time by both of them, hot water is trivially easy to store for a few hours to loadshift.

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-11 17:43:18

Test post ... getting Server Error

For Terraformer re #151

Thanks for your follow up!

Please consider developing a plan/proposal with solid figures.

(th)

Terraformer · 2023-02-12 15:25:30

A problem with with hot water storage is legionella. The sort of temperatures needed to prevent bacterial growth, 60+ Celsius, are above what is needed or desirable in a hot water system -- we don't want people being scalded because they didn't use the mixer tap correctly.

Aside from high temperature, the other options we have are to treat the water through means such as ultrafiltration and UV light, or to store the heat in a separate system and heat water on demand. We could use a phase change material for this, I think that would be the simplest way. Though storing hot water and using a heat exchanger would also be an option. Considering all costs prefiltration and a UV lamp in the tank, if it is effective enough, would probably be the best choice.

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-12 16:08:17

For Terraformer re #153

Thanks for pointing out the risk of biological contamination of water used for energy storage.

If I am reading between the lines correctly (and recognize that may not be the case) it would seen (to me at least) you are suggesting keeping the heating system separate from the drinking supply.

Is there more to your caution than that? I don't know enough about Legionella at this point, to understand the risks.

My understanding (limited at this point) is that open air water mist cooling systems may have harbored the agent?

Is Legionella a parasite or bacteria?
Legionella can survive and grow as parasites within free-living protozoa and within biofilms which develop in water systems. They can cause infections by infecting human cells using a similar mechanism to that used to infect protozoa.Sep 6, 2022

Thanks again for alerting your readers to this issue.

(th)

Terraformer · 2023-02-12 16:23:17

I'm suggesting it as one option. Tbqh though I suspect UV light + filtration will be able to handle the issue, UV seems pretty good at killing stuff, so if the water tank is kept lit up with it it's unlikely to get a purchase. Would need testing of course before anyone relies on it.

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-12 17:41:23

For Terraformer re #155

Following up ....

Could you (?would you) clarify, if you are wanting to keep biological agents out of the heating system?

I would expect you'd want to keep biological agents out of the cooking/bathing/drinking supply.

There is probably more than one good reason to keep biological agents out of the heating system, but at this point, I can't see why the presence of biological agents in a sealed heating system is a problem?

***
Related .... I'm curious to know if you would support a proposal to keep carbon out of all water systems, whether used for drinking or not.

There are numerous other elements that should be kept out of water supply systems, but carbon is the one I think of as most likely to be associated with living creatures.

I'm not aware of a filtration system that is designed to identify Carbon containing molecules, so for me this is more of a theoretical discussion.

If nanotechnology evolves as I'm hoping it will, there ** should ** come a time when individual atoms can be identified and selected or promoted.

To the best of my knowledge, we (humans) are not ** there ** yet.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-13 12:03:44

For Terraformer ... NewMars (FluxBB to be specific) is refusing to send a post I created for this topic. I sent if from the Knowledge Forum via email.
(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-02-13 19:38:01

Drinking water that is used for hot water at the tap does come with issues in the form of legionnaire if temperatures are too low. It is why a combination heating and boiler sets the overall temperature for heating. Systems that use heat exchangers are required to use food glycol for the heating loop. Another method is to boost it with a hot water tankless system to kill anything that might be ingested or bathed in.

Here is a possible baseboard heating unit that contains a blower for a room use Hydrotherm 1.16-ft 4200 Hydronic Baseboard Heater 00646151.jpg?size=pdhism

Terraformer · 2023-02-15 05:18:01

The enormous heat pumps warming cities -- BBC

Article on the use of heat pumps in district heating systems. There appears to be an efficiency advantage to having a large central heat pump? A system could start off as a standard goethermal loop system, delivering heat at say 40c -- if the source temperature is at 10c, the achievable CoP is about 7 (afaict heat pumps are 50-70% efficient relative to their theoretical maximum). Over time we can add heat to the system as solar thermal is built out, lowering the electricity use and possibly eliminating the heat pump altogether (though there are big advantages to delivering a consistent temperature to customers, so we'd need to ensure the ground is >40c by the time winter ends to do this...).

40c would be enough for space heating with suitable insulation and radiators. Enough also for doing laundry. Slightly above bathing temperature, but again, legionella makes storing water like that tricky (OTOH that's warm enough to melt paraffin wax, so latent heaters could work). If hotter temperatures are needed, people already have boilers or immersion heaters installed (see Heat Pumps In District Heating -- UK Government Report for possible architectures).

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-15 07:56:07

For Terraformer .... The projects you've described in #159 would have started with one person thinking they were a "good idea".

There is no one else in your town who is going to provide that leadership. You are ** it **.

The folks who inspired the projects might be willing to help you develop a campaign to build consensus in your town.

The article mentions Kensa Utilities as "in charge" of installation. It appears they provide funding in return for rent.

The article reports that the "UK government" is "committed to designating heat network zones"

You might be able to tip the scales to put your town on the list of such zones.

The author, Evie Townend, might be willing to give you leads for contacts.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-15 10:55:07

For Terraformer re Geothermal Heating and Cooling Regional system for your town...

If a geothermal system is going to come into existence in your town, it will happen ONLY if you decide it should happen. I am betting that you are the only person in many British miles who has a clue what this project would be, let alone how to make it happen.

If you decide to take this on, it will be by taking a role similar to a server in a volley ball game ...

There are people ready and willing to help you put the ball over the net, and there are opponents on the other side of the net who will do absolutely everything in their power to defeat your initiative. What is needed is a strong, confident serve, and then close attention to each player who assumes responsibility for whatever action is needed at a given moment, with words of praise where appropriate, or suggestions for alternative procedures when that seems needed.

Your opening serve to the council person may have gone astray. I'd say gutter but that would be bowling.

An alternative that comes to mind is a letter to the editor of the local paper, if one still exists in your town or region.

If you take this on, you are going to be assuming a role of civic leadership. Politics is NOT the same thing as civic leadership, but sometimes civic leaders become politicians, and ever-so-rarely, politicians may take a brief turn at civic leadership.

If you were to organize a group around the theme of bringing a geothermal project into existence in your town, this forum is a potential site for discussion. The forum has a number of attributes that have evolved under the steady leadership of SpaceNut.

The forum now has a reliable data storage partner, as GW Johnson Postings topic shows.

The index for a discussion can be maintained by you, if you create a topic for this purpose, and set up the first two or three posts for Index, Table of Contents, List of Participants, etc.

The FluxBB software is not designed for organized discussion, but I believe it can be adapted for the purpose.

I can't speak for any other Admins (of course) but my guess is you will find them ALL willing to support your initiative, with well placed bounces where they would be helpful.

(th)

Void · 2023-02-15 13:30:30

I am curious if you have factored in one of the UK's good cards. Wind energy surges, and load peaks and valleys?

The conversation I have seen does not so much seem to think of factoring in off peak power to a system.

You could for instance heat water with off peak power.

Just curious.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-15 13:31:49)

SpaceNut · 2023-02-15 19:22:43

In days gone by there were at a time that a separate electric meter was wired just for that purpose of off hour hot water from the electrical grid.

I also agree that when we need to make a dummy load for a windmill that we can put that electrical heating as part of that thermal storage for later in the sand battery or large volumes of water.

If Terraformer, would like to list the posts to remove to create the new topic please give that post.
Or Terraformer, can copy each of the posts that are desired as well.

I was thinking about creating a wiki topic for the home heating from solar tower concentrating by combining my own posts for that or I might just create a white paper from them if I have the time.

In a previous post I noted that some thermal sites were not just plumes of magma but were cause from radio isotopic decay. Study shows hot spots for radon, uranium in New Hampshire

AA17x8cp.img?w=534&h=646&m=6

Radon map shows where some danger areas are for heat pumps that make use of water wells.

Terraformer · 2023-02-16 12:25:26

Very interesting graph in the UK government report (hopefully the image will load)....

They based their modelling on assumptions about gas costs that turned out to be very, badly, horribly wrong. Gas won over heat pumps on cost (about 20-40% cheaper) but on the assumption of gas being ~3p a kWh. The current domestic tariffs are (capped by government) ~11p a kWh, which is what the most expensive heat pump systems were expected to cost. Of course, electricity has also gone up in price. Capex and Opex for both systems were roughly similar, so the main difference comes from the price ratio of gas to electricity and the CoP of the pumps.

They predicted large savings from providing heat at 45c rather than 70c as a result, though I'm quite confused by their predicted CoPs. They were claiming it would be about 4 for a 15c difference? The theoretical maximum for that would be over 20, so that's a really really bad heat pump they're using there. And of course solar thermal storage was outside the scope of the paper.

SpaceNut · 2023-02-16 20:42:52

It's from this paper.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u … report.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati … umps-study

Void · 2023-02-18 11:43:49

I am going to beg forgiveness in advance for this one.

I first considered this for an individual home owner, and maybe for some situations it might work.

My question was "Temperature of sewage at sewage treatment plants?"

As it happens someone is already on it:
Got an interesting answer: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/scie … d%20season.

Quote:

Waste Wattage: Cities Aim to Flush Heat Energy Out of Sewers

Quote:

About 60°F
Wastewater, which consists of what gets flushed down toilets but is mixed with millions of gallons of hot water from showers, dishwashers, washing machines, and more, maintains a fairly constant temperature as it travels through sewers to the treatment plant—typically about 60°F (15.6° C), though this varies by geography and season.

So, a giant stinky thermal storage.

This also: https://www.thewastewaterblog.com/singl … emperature

So, maybe your heat pumps could work with the discharge for a source of heat for some buildings.

But I also wonder if two different methods could be used to sink heat into the sewer system.

1) Pipe somewhat clean water and push heat into it, particularly in the summer. You would have to have a way to keep the solids away from this process.

2) Run electric currents though the pipes, presuming that they have some conductivity. Possible danger of explosions though.
This might be good for peak energy existence when the load need leveling.

Anyway, maybe something could be done with it.

I suppose if you were in Texas or you might try to use the system for building cooling, but I think that would be harder.

For storing heat, it might not be too bad. Too bad toilets do not have their own sewer system. Then you could work mainly with grey water.

That is of interest. If you could hear your grey water when windmills or solar create excess output, you could store heat local. Then a local heat pump might drain heat out of the adjacent ground. Problems though could include freezing your sewer pipes, but then with care it might be OK.

So, segregate the water which may carry solids, and then heat your grey water just prior to it going down the drain.

Hard to say how you say who is in who's debt. If you heat more than you need, and pay for the electricity, then you are donating to communal thermal storage, How then would you be compensated?

Also, it is unknown what the maintenance consequences would be for pouring water down the drain at 90 degrees C?

Anybody have thoughts?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-18 12:01:22)

Void · 2023-02-18 13:24:48

In bonding sewer water systems to energy storage compromises might be needed.

Generally clean water is rather valuable.

But I wonder if for some waterfront locations, it might pay to suck up marginal water, heat it and discharge id down a sewage system, so long as you did not overload the system.

In the case where your sewer water is treated and discharged into seacoasts, perhaps sea water could be used, but it might screw up the treatment process.

In the case where the treated output is to a river, then it might be OK to use that river water. Of course, the objective would be to not heat the river too much. In the winter, you would want to pull the heat out to heat large buildings, I would suppose.

But it might be important to not only look at the downsides, but to look at the energy recovered, which might lead to less Carbon burned.

After all, supposed global warming is from CO2, not from warmed rivers. Warmed water would also lead to more evaporation, it is true, but that might induce more rain.

So, I am thinking that some type of dry storage could be linked to storage in a sewer system. Water clean or not flowing in a sewer system is likely to be variable in flow in response to a day night cycle.

So, if a house had a dry brick thermal storage of excess solar or wind or for that matter nuclear electricity, then first the bricks would be heated, and then as grey water was generated it would be heated after its formation but before being sewered.

I am not saying that this would work everywhere, but maybe some places. So, if you lived in a place where solar is more available in the summer, you might live in a place which has stretches of 3 days of sunshine, and the maybe 3 days of cloudy skies. So, by storing heat in hot bricks, even in the summer, as households generated grey water than heat could be transferred into a sewer system.

While an individual home might recover heat to heat water for a shower or to wash dishes, it may also be possible that warm water flows could go to a special utility for storage somehow, maybe even again a heat pump method?

Well structures cost money as well. So, maybe not a good option.

Anyway, as I have said, it is possible that there may be certain places where this might make sense, and where the power structures would allow an experiment.

This could be assistive to make solar and wind profitable in places where it is not now profitable.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-18 13:38:59)

Void · 2023-02-18 16:44:10

Well, here is an interesting video on geothermal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6UGpaKnkS0

So, it does not always work out as gain. Apparently, it is needed to have a skill level to avoid pitfalls.

I suspect that Eavor avoids a lot of the problems that were mentioned in the video.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-18 16:45:00)

SpaceNut · 2023-02-18 17:04:42

post 166 by void reminds me of the poop power topic but this seems at first glance being caused by biological breakdown of the sewage.

Void · 2023-02-18 17:13:26

There could be a contribution from biology, but primarily the sewer system is a heat sink. If you could tap into it with a heat pump just maybe it would be worthwhile. I don't think it would be easy to retrofit an existing plumbing, but maybe a new installation.

They say that the temperatures can be: Quote:

About 60°F
Wastewater, which consists of what gets flushed down toilets but is mixed with millions of gallons of hot water from showers, dishwashers, washing machines, and more, maintains a fairly constant temperature as it travels through sewers to the treatment plant—typically about 60°F (15.6° C), though this varies by geography and season.

But a question exists as could you heat up dry bricks with off peak power and then further heat your grey water as you discharge it down the sewer, bringing the sewer temperatures up even more.

It seems a bit difficult to harvest that energy in single family homes, but it might be done.

Let me dream of a silly dream. Some entity might install a dry off-peak power storage device. In the winter, perhaps you would use that heat for your house. But in the summer when you did not need heat as much, it might be used to heat the discharged grey water from your house. This then would heat the sewer system. The sewer system then storing heat long term would have that energy removed to heat buildings at some point.

Complicated, but to me, of interest. You take a shower. The device might heat your shower water, and then the water that went down the drain would be heated even more and sent down the drain.

So, then to turn a sewer system into a thermal storage device. It might also be a transmission device to transmit heat though the sewage itself.

You might also have solar panels which might also heat the off-peak power device, provided you had a long string of sunny days. Could be soler electric panels or maybe thermal solar.

So, maybe in some cities or communities this would work.

I don't know if you could pull it off with a septic system though, as it might disturb the organisms that are needed to process the organic waste. Still, it would be interesting to put heat pump coils into such a system.

So, maybe yesterday's shower helps to heat todays shower.

Practical? Maybe somewhere.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-18 17:26:40)

SpaceNut · 2023-02-18 17:44:35

I think that a tank such as made with concrete and then insulated on the outside before placing it into a sand filled hole would make the poop stay warmer longer. The tank could be retrofitted with bricks that have holes with in them using pex tubing running through them. The bricks then would make contact to the poop in the tank to provide a 2-way path of heating and heat source from the storage.

Something like this with probably less holes in a column inside the tank

Void · 2023-02-18 18:57:55

Well, I was thinking that the poo gets a free pass along with the tp which might clog things. But grey water maybe. But it is an invitation to trouble. But the point is it may be that the sewer system could store more thermal energy than it does now.

I won't try to sell it too hard though.

Done.

SpaceNut · 2023-02-18 19:13:00

Most states will not allow grey water to be separated from all waste that goes to a septic tank and as the water level rises the water would enter a leach field from that sewerage tank. Homes that are connected to a central sewer system would not be able to make use of this system in many of a town or city.
Getting ordinance change for such a new design to make use of the grey wastewater within the tank but would that also mean an additional leach field?

Void · 2023-02-18 19:25:44

Everything would go down the sewer, but the grey water might be additionally heated.

It is rather the opposite of electrical power. Electrical power distributes out of a source.

Drain water distributes like a river water shed from multiple sources to a common output.

Part of the problem for so called "Green Energy" is that to some extent energy needs to redistribute to not be wasted.

In a time period where your electric system is underused, and extra electric power is available from a source, then it may be possible to send that power to a reservoir, like a dry heat sink. Then the heat is available to either heat your shower or heat the grey water. Or to do both.

The drain water then being warmer than normal, a heat pump might pull the heat back out.

If you have 3 sunny days in a row, you might heat up the sewer system as excess electric power was available. Now the sewer is hotter than it would have been and 3 cloudy or cold days happen, and at some point, the heat can be taken out of the sewer system.

So, then the energy flows to your house in the electric system, but from your house into the sewer from your house.

But it is only an item to think about at this time. When I get to something like this, I put it in a cubby hole for future review, if some other factor shows up that might relate to it.

I don't call it a stupid idea, (Not yet anyway), but it is an unreviewed item and may have some potential somehow.

I also allow that it might be possible to dump heat into a sewer system with solar thermal. Not easy, but possible.

And of course, wind peaks might also be dumped into the sewer system. But deviating too far from the normal sewer system may lead to some kind of bad effects, so I anticipate limits to the utility of it.

Large buildings adjacent to the sewer system might draw heat from it with a heat pump system.

Who should get a reward for participation and who may owe money is a thing that would have to be worked out.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-02-18 19:48:06)

tahanson43206 · 2023-02-18 21:09:19

For Void ... this topic of yours has certainly taken a surprising turn!

The treatment of human (and other) waste ** is ** important, both for Earth and for Mars, and for everywhere in between.

Combining ** that ** important need with heat storage is an interesting development, for sure!

(th)

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#151 2023-02-11 12:22:08

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

#152 2023-02-11 17:43:18

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#153 2023-02-12 15:25:30

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#154 2023-02-12 16:08:17

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#155 2023-02-12 16:23:17

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#156 2023-02-12 17:41:23

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#157 2023-02-13 12:03:44

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#158 2023-02-13 19:38:01

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#159 2023-02-15 05:18:01

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#160 2023-02-15 07:56:07

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#161 2023-02-15 10:55:07

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#162 2023-02-15 13:30:30

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#163 2023-02-15 19:22:43

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#164 2023-02-16 12:25:26

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#165 2023-02-16 20:42:52

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#166 2023-02-18 11:43:49

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#167 2023-02-18 13:24:48

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#168 2023-02-18 16:44:10

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#169 2023-02-18 17:04:42

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#170 2023-02-18 17:13:26

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#172 2023-02-18 18:57:55

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