Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-18 08:27:19

I always say if you ask for something and get it then don't complain. If i went into a pen with hungry lions while carriing red meat. I wouldn't be suprised to find them Lions jumping on me and killing me.

The difference of course being that lions are animals, simple stimulus/response. Human beings are able to reason.

Or did I miss a subtle statement on the group of immigrants in question. :hm: :;):

The man hates Religon in ever way and form. He even talked bullshit about jews and the Holocaust. When he jumped into the Islamophobia bandwagon no one cared anymore. The fact is he offended alot of people and angerd them. He shouldn't have expected nothing worse then getting murderd for spreading lies about things he doesn't know about.

Free speech means sometimes you get offended. Tough shit. If I went off and started killing people everytime they said something disagreeable or produced "art" I thought was in poor taste there'd be bodies all over. But if you're going to have a free society you're going to have people saying things that piss you off from time to time. That's how it works, if a certain small section of the immigrant population can't accept that, they shouldn't be in that country. It's not Soviet Russia, they can leave.

Merely being offended does not justify murder.

clark · 2005-07-18 08:55:19

Merely being offended does not justify murder.

Let's test the theory.

Your mom is a whore.

All apologies, of course.

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-18 09:11:41

In order to be offended I must first perceive the would-be offender as having credibility.

We choose to be offended after all.

clark · 2005-07-18 09:26:32

So you don't buy into the premise of "fighting words"?

Stormrage · 2005-07-18 15:00:48

I always say if you ask for something and get it then don't complain. If i went into a pen with hungry lions while carriing red meat. I wouldn't be suprised to find them Lions jumping on me and killing me.
The difference of course being that lions are animals, simple stimulus/response. Human beings are able to reason.
Or did I miss a subtle statement on the group of immigrants in question. :hm: :;):
The man hates Religon in ever way and form. He even talked bullshit about jews and the Holocaust. When he jumped into the Islamophobia bandwagon no one cared anymore. The fact is he offended alot of people and angerd them. He shouldn't have expected nothing worse then getting murderd for spreading lies about things he doesn't know about.
Free speech means sometimes you get offended. Tough shit. If I went off and started killing people everytime they said something disagreeable or produced "art" I thought was in poor taste there'd be bodies all over. But if you're going to have a free society you're going to have people saying things that piss you off from time to time. That's how it works, if a certain small section of the immigrant population can't accept that, they shouldn't be in that country. It's not Soviet Russia, they can leave.
Merely being offended does not justify murder.

There is also such a thing has respect. I don't know if this exists in Mainland Europe or in USA but here in the UK if someone like him tried something like that here they could face time in prison. The only reason that kinda thing went unanswered is has i said earlier that mainland Europe is rife with Islamophobia. They come up with laws to "help" when all they are doing is opressing the rights of people.

His abuse of freedom of speech just shows that he hates Islam without a good reason. There are laws limiting Freedom of Speech. Eminem got checked by the FBI because one of his songs might have be a threat the president. Why was this man allowed to offend alot of people who done nothing to him? People have a right to live without this kidna bullshit. There is also a difference between parody (The Simpsons & Christianity) and just plain offending (Jerry Springer Opera depicting Jesus has a fat couch potatoa).

The way you talk about immigrants indicates that you view then less then the natives. I'm sorry if you feel that way but you should know it's immigrants that keep our society the way it is. They are the one who are willing to do the jobs no one wants at longer hours with less pay. Everyone knows it. Even businesses know this fact that's why jobs are moving away from some countries into others. So leave them alone. May i kindely remind you that your country was actually BUILT by immigrants.

DonPanic · 2005-07-18 15:59:28

LO

Imperium et libertas.

Wouldn't romans have written : "IMPERIUM LIBERTASQUE" ?

clark · 2005-07-18 18:20:50

Interesting, mindless factoid about the Romans... were they ever dirty. :laugh:

Their erotica is simply... stunning? Disturbing?

Stuff that would make sailors blush. :laugh:

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-19 05:57:20

His abuse of freedom of speech just shows that he hates Islam without a good reason. There are laws limiting Freedom of Speech. Eminem got checked by the FBI because one of his songs might have be a threat the president.

Eminem was "checked" by the FBI. Not imprisoned and no one sane would have considered some lyrics enough to justify murdering him. Even though he regularly offends considerable segments of the population.

Here's someting I think you're missing. The vast majority of people in the US, Europe and the UK do not approve of a religious fanatic killing someone for "offending" them. When the Muslim community doesn't condemn such acts but instead carries on about "deserving it" and being "stupid" as you have been doing it makes the native people of the country much less tolerant of the Muslim immigrants. By your reaction, you are part of the problem.

Why was this man allowed to offend alot of people who done nothing to him? People have a right to live without this kidna bullshit.

No, they don't. Neither you nor I have a "right to not be offended." Suck it up and deal with it. Murdering people and carrying on like there's rampant "Islamophobia" only harms Muslims themselves. If Europe truly was as Islamophobic as you seem to think they'd simply stop letting them in. Which may yet happen, given behaviors discussed here.

The way you talk about immigrants indicates that you view then less then the natives.

Not at all. I merely hold the opinion that any nation can choose whether or not to let others in and those that do enter are obligated to adapt themselves to the native culture rather than expecting it to adapt to them.

May i kindely remind you that your country was actually BUILT by immigrants.

:laugh: Oh, well then nevermind. :;):
See, what you'r missing is this: Both the US and many European countries used to do two very important things regarding immigration that they no longer do. One, they favored immigrants from countries with similar cultures thereby making assimilation easier. Two, they based citizenship on ancestry rather than place of birth. It used to be you were born a US citizen only if your parents were US citizens, now a pregnant illegal need only cross the border in time to deliver, at taxpayer expense, a new little American citizen meal ticket. The same applies to a lesser extent in many European countries.

I'm not against immigration and I'm not anti-Muslim. I am however for responsible immigration and I expect that Muslim immigrants accept that our society is a package deal. If someone wants to move to America or Britain, it behooves them to become American or British. Anything less is destructive to the society hosting them, detrimental to their own prospects and just a little bit silly. Why leave in the first place?

Wouldn't romans have written : "IMPERIUM LIBERTASQUE" ?

Quite possibly. My Latin isn't exactly fluent.

clark · 2005-07-19 06:08:00

I merely hold the opinion that any nation can choose whether or not to let others in and those that do enter are obligated to adapt themselves to the native culture rather than expecting it to adapt to them.

How does this jive with self-determinantion and the right to free expression?

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-19 06:26:58

How does this jive with self-determinantion and the right to free expression?

Self determination is unaffected. You remain free to live anywhere in the world you wish, however reality dictates that one conform to the overwhelming majority of people already there. Generally people emigrate to find a better life, more opportunity, greater safety, clean streets and all that. The culture of the host country is part of that, you can't really pick and choose the pieces you want any more than I can say "I like the leisure time that Saudi oil money provides, but I should be able to drink beer and read porno mags on a Riyahd street." Each nation has a collection of traits, take it or leave it as a whole.

Free expression, sure. Express away. Just don't get all buggered up when someone else doing the same offends you is all I'm saying. When a segment of the population indicates they believe it's okay to kill people that offend them, we have a problem.

Edited By Cobra Commander on 1121793959

Stormrage · 2005-07-19 12:39:52

Here's someting I think you're missing. The vast majority of people in the US, Europe and the UK do not approve of a religious fanatic killing someone for "offending" them. When the Muslim community doesn't condemn such acts but instead carries on about "deserving it" and being "stupid" as you have been doing it makes the native people of the country much less tolerant of the Muslim immigrants. By your reaction, you are part of the problem.

Your saying that the Muslim community in western society should let people make fun of them and condemn any Muslim who takes action against the person who offended them.

WTF are you on about? Why should they take abuse. No one should take abuse they don't deserve. I really don't think this the the tone you would take if it was you who was the victim of the jokes. This is just double standards

No, they don't. Neither you nor I have a "right to not be offended." Suck it up and deal with it. Murdering people and carrying on like there's rampant "Islamophobia" only harms Muslims themselves. If Europe truly was as Islamophobic as you seem to think they'd simply stop letting them in. Which may yet happen, given behaviors discussed here.

Yes people have a right to live and work without idiots making fun of them. Hell i don't go to my college and shout profanity at everyone i see who wasn't a muslim. I'll get in trouble. This is the exact kinda thing that happen to blacks earlier. They kept telling themselves to just take the abuse. Can't anyone but me see the parallel here?

Not at all. I merely hold the opinion that any nation can choose whether or not to let others in and those that do enter are obligated to adapt themselves to the native culture rather than expecting it to adapt to them.

Most immigrants don't expect to have an entire country adapt to there culture. They expect to be able to practice their own culture. What harm can their culture do? Unless it's a weak culture that is under threat like french most culture can survive having other culture merge with them. Look at Britian. The indian culture has merged with the british one.

See, what you'r missing is this: Both the US and many European countries used to do two very important things regarding immigration that they no longer do. One, they favored immigrants from countries with similar cultures thereby making assimilation easier. Two, they based citizenship on ancestry rather than place of birth. It used to be you were born a US citizen only if your parents were US citizens, now a pregnant illegal need only cross the border in time to deliver, at taxpayer expense, a new little American citizen meal ticket. The same applies to a lesser extent in many European countries.
I'm not against immigration and I'm not anti-Muslim. I am however for responsible immigration and I expect that Muslim immigrants accept that our society is a package deal. If someone wants to move to America or Britain, it behooves them to become American or British. Anything less is destructive to the society hosting them, detrimental to their own prospects and just a little bit silly. Why leave in the first place?

How about escaping persecution. Or maybe war? Have you ever heard of those? Unfortunately some people are not lucky to see bad things happen in the news. They see it happen outside.

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-20 11:10:31

Your saying that the Muslim community in western society should let people make fun of them and condemn any Muslim who takes action against the person who offended them.

I'm saying that everyone in Western society gets made fun of and it doesn't justify stabbing people. Muslims aren't getting it that bad except when they carry on like lunatics and make absurd statements.

Don't believe it? Ask a Mexican, or a homosexual, or a Democrat, or a Republican, or a Southerner, or. . .

WTF are you on about? Why should they take abuse. No one should take abuse they don't deserve. I really don't think this the the tone you would take if it was you who was the victim of the jokes. This is just double standards

Just for the record, are we establishing here that it's acceptable to kill people for making fun of you? Is that really a position you want to get behind?

Besides, you want to hear about taking abuse, try wading with nine comrades into a sea of hundreds of angry socialist wackos. :?

Most immigrants don't expect to have an entire country adapt to there culture. They expect to be able to practice their own culture. What harm can their culture do?

Okay, thought experiment. Let's say I move to Iran along with a sizeable group of other Americans. We don't expect the Iranian culture to adapt to us, oh no, wouldn't dream of it. But we expect to be able to practice our own culture. We have barbecues, chug beer by the gallon (which is quite a feat getting it all imported), rock n roll music playing, barely clothed women in the pool or lying out in the sun while we complain about the government.

Sure, it's greatly at odds with the local culture but dammit, we're just being who we are. "Why's everyone so upset?" we wonder.

Then they start making fun of us. Oooh, now we're mad. So we go out and kill a few people. You know, to make up for a few jokes.

Does that make any sense? It's essentially what you've been arguing.

How about escaping persecution. Or maybe war? Have you ever heard of those? Unfortunately some people are not lucky to see bad things happen in the news. They see it happen outside.

It all fits under "find a better life," but the point still stands. No country has an obligation to let anyone in for any reason. They're doing the immigrants a favor. If those immigrants don't become part of the culture and are in fact hostile to it, they are not the victims but the abusers of the hospitality extended to them.

If I let someone into my house and he starts complaining about the decor while helping himself to the food before urinating in the corner my hospitality will rapidly expire. That's what's happening in some Western countries ight now.

I understand your position and your feelings on this matter. But there are other sides to it that can't be ignored or brushed off as "Islamophobia" or some other such dismissive copout. To survive in a Western political landscape you need to see things from several angles.

clark · 2005-07-20 11:21:32

The difference I see is that America is an open society based largely on mutual assimilation- we are a product of the best parts of all societies. Which is why I personally get drunk on Cinco De Mayo AND Saint Patrick's Day.

Iran, per your example, is not an open society. Would you rather be more like Iran?

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-20 11:26:39

we are a product of the best parts of all societies. Which is why I personally get drunk on Cinco De Mayo AND Saint Patrick's Day.
Iran, per your example, is not an open society. Would you rather be more like Iran?

Of course I don't want us to be like Iran, but what's your point? Returning to past immigration policies wouldn't be turning us into a closed fundie state. Acknowledging that immigrants who don't assimilate are a problem would not bring the entire structure of Western society crashing down.

Palomar · 2005-07-20 11:31:51

*I'm able to interact at this male-dominated board because I live in a society which allows for the promotion/advocation of women's rights. So, I'm here.

But what would happen to my rights if a lot of misogynistic males from a hostile society should suddenly move in, not change, and out-number the female-tolerant males?

Guess my rights (including posting at this forum) would be gone.

See?

My paternal grandfather was an immigrant from the former Czechoslovakia. When he moved here, he retained some cultural identity...but he also adapted. His future wife's parents did the same thing. They were living in the U.S. now...not Czechoslovakia. That was understood.

--Cindy

clark · 2005-07-20 11:36:20

True, but I am more inclined to believe in the premise of attraction, not enforcement or requirement for assimilation.

Let the individual decide based on the personal benefit to themselves. I personally believe that America has a lot to offer, a rich culture- one that provides a great deal. I don't think we need a hard sell, or a forced buy on the deal.

The value is self evident, and I believe it will stand. By requiring that they "assimilate" we necessarily must define what assimilation is. At that point we make American culture stagnant, instead of vibrant.

Our culture is one of continual change and improvement, so I feel that heading down such a road where we enforce assimilation would do more harm than good.

Where we see the cultural pockets form, where there is non-assimilation- that is generally among the illegal population that is forced to develop a sub-community. If we work to be more inclusive (and reform our oversight laws of companies that actively pursue illegal labor, instead of punishing the poor SOB who is looking for work) of the fringe population, this will be less of an issue.

Come on, aside from the liberal destruction of "Thanksgiving", a unique American tradition is to unite with strangers and celebrate our bounty. To celebrate each other. This should be no different.

If they don't want to change, more power to them. There are certain traditions my family carries on that I would never change either. If they want us to conform to their values, let them work through the process to enforce that (which is why I also believe that setting up a process in our favor now is ultimately undermining because one day it can be used against us). No one can force you to be like them, so why worry?

Stormrage · 2005-07-20 17:57:38

I'm saying that everyone in Western society gets made fun of and it doesn't justify stabbing people. Muslims aren't getting it that bad except when they carry on like lunatics and make absurd statements.
Don't believe it? Ask a Mexican, or a homosexual, or a Democrat, or a Republican, or a Southerner, or. . .

There is a diffrence between making fun and ripping someone's belief system up and insulting it in the process. That man crossed the line

Just for the record, are we establishing here that it's acceptable to kill people for making fun of you? Is that really a position you want to get behind?

Actually what i am saying is that man should never have been allowed to make that movie. The dutch government should have stopped him.

Okay, thought experiment. Let's say I move to Iran along with a sizeable group of other Americans. We don't expect the Iranian culture to adapt to us, oh no, wouldn't dream of it. But we expect to be able to practice our own culture. We have barbecues, chug beer by the gallon (which is quite a feat getting it all imported), rock n roll music playing, barely clothed women in the pool or lying out in the sun while we complain about the government.
Sure, it's greatly at odds with the local culture but dammit, we're just being who we are. "Why's everyone so upset?" we wonder.
Then they start making fun of us. Oooh, now we're mad. So we go out and kill a few people. You know, to make up for a few jokes.
Does that make any sense? It's essentially what you've been arguing.

So your going with the "I'm going to jump of the bridge beacuse everyone else is doing" routine here.

Have you asked your self why people go to america instead of Iran? Maybe beacuse they like the idea for freedom?

If I let someone into my house and he starts complaining about the decor while helping himself to the food before urinating in the corner my hospitality will rapidly expire. That's what's happening in some Western countries ight now.

Now that is generalisation of a situation you clearly a rumour. Ask your self this. Why would someone take the risk of going to another country, getting asylum and then start to complain while living off the country? It takes alot of motivation to take a journey to a new country where you know no one and are not even sure if they country will accepet you. Are you telling me the motivation that the person has disappears?

This sounds alot like one of those bozos who complain that immigrants are stealing their jobs. Why blame the immigrants? They probably need the job has much or maybe more then you.

Guess my rights (including posting at this forum) would be gone.

Your rights will probably still be there unless a new government came with public support to remove womens rights. Even then the UN and other countries will put on pressure to give women their rights.

clark · 2005-07-20 18:06:47

There is a diffrence between making fun and ripping someone's belief system up and insulting it in the process. That man crossed the line

Some might argue that you are engaging in the very same behavior as you post regarding anothers viewpoint on the matter.

You cannot have freedom of expression unless an individual is free from physical violence. There will always be those who find anothers viewpoint offensive, for whatever reason. If you allow or accept violence as an acceptable response to the expression of ideas, then you stifle thought, and reduce debate.

Without the freedom to express ourselves in the absence of violent reprisal for our views, we cannot communicate or find common ground in a peaceful manner. I suggest you think through your position in a bit more detail, as it is generally held by a radical minority.

srmeaney · 2005-07-21 07:57:17

I dont know what they are whinging about. Europe is doing what Australia did over a hundred years ago...becomming a commonwealth. When the assorted Australian nation states decided to form a single federal government, they moaned about it then too...

That didnt stop us from winding up with a bunch of old guys with beards passing themselves off as founding fathers.

srmeaney · 2005-07-21 08:00:32

Welcome to the Space Commonwealth. Citizenship carries both benifits and responsibilities.

Stormrage · 2005-07-24 17:37:06

There is a diffrence between making fun and ripping someone's belief system up and insulting it in the process. That man crossed the line
Some might argue that you are engaging in the very same behavior as you post regarding anothers viewpoint on the matter.
You cannot have freedom of expression unless an individual is free from physical violence. There will always be those who find anothers viewpoint offensive, for whatever reason. If you allow or accept violence as an acceptable response to the expression of ideas, then you stifle thought, and reduce debate.
Without the freedom to express ourselves in the absence of violent reprisal for our views, we cannot communicate or find common ground in a peaceful manner. I suggest you think through your position in a bit more detail, as it is generally held by a radical minority.

Has i said countless times. There are limits to expressing your self. The UK government have made it illegal to express anything that is deemed pro-terrorism.

Also i didn't think that the man should have been killed. Maybe slapped but not injured in anyway. What i think is that he should have been stopped the same way the government stops people from supporting Terrorists verbally.

clark · 2005-07-25 05:57:31

There are limits to expressing your self.

Very true, there are limits. And generally, those limits, in more open societies, are few and specific.

The reason being that in an open society, if you limit the basic expression of speech and thought, you limit a fundamental requirement for freedom of choice.

How can one choose what is right or wrong unless they can at least talk about it?

Most people accept the limits on free speech such as not saying things that will incite panic, or things that advocate violence against another person or group (yes, there is a certain amount of irony in this when a leader takes a nation to war).

Human history is replete with examples where individuals and groups who did not feel that they could adequately express themselves choosing more aggressive paths to gain that right. It is in our own best interest to provide people with the widest possible latitude in expressing their opinions and beliefs, as long as such opinions and beliefs do not advocate harming others.

Perhaps making fun of another’s beliefs is in poor taste, but it is a small price to pay for the liberty to speak your own mind. Remember, the rules you impose on others are the rules you impose on yourself.

Palomar · 2005-08-11 08:14:16

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u … ings]Hasta la vista, losers

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2005-08-12 02:46:48

Cindy:-

*I'm able to interact at this male-dominated board because I live in a society which allows for the promotion/advocation of women's rights. So, I'm here.
But what would happen to my rights if a lot of misogynistic males from a hostile society should suddenly move in, not change, and out-number the female-tolerant males?
Guess my rights (including posting at this forum) would be gone.
See?

This is an interesting conundrum. We are pro-democracy because we recognize there's no fairer system available. But Muslims, or any other immigrating minority group for that matter, arriving in a Western country, have only to reproduce faster than the indigenes and, given time, the majority of the populace will be Muslim and elect a Muslim controlled government.
-- If that government passes legislation banning women appearing in public without a male escort or without head-to-toe clothing, and banning them from voting or attending tertiary education institutions, and all the various other restrictions associated with strict Islamic governance, what then?

I read somewhere the other day that France will be an Islamic nation in about 20-25 years, judging by the current relative reproduction rates. Can anyone confirm this statistic? :?: And I think Holland will get to this point before France, if I'm not mistaken.
-- Presumably, the election which sees the first Muslim majority in the French parliament will be the last free election in that country. I suppose Sharia law or something similar will become the standard and the only choice left to the all-male electorate will be which cleric to choose as a representative. i.e. No choice at all, in effect (and certainly no choice if you're female! ).

-- A similar situation occurred in Fiji, when the Indian portion of the population (originally brought in to work on the land) took over much of the commerce and then took over the government. The indigenous Fijians, feeling marginalized, abandoned democracy and took back their country by force.

Of course, with Muslims imposing Sharia Law, it's a more serious situation than the one which came to pass in Fiji. At least in Fiji, democratic institutions were intact and personal freedoms were maintained.
-- A Muslim majority in parliament presumably means theocracy rather than democracy, does it not? And the end of civilized rights for the female half of the population, who are then little more than breeding cattle.

How far does one take democracy? Is the democratic process to be defended right up to the point where its very implementation is instrumental in its own destruction?! :? Do you allow an election to proceed, knowing the result will bring about the cessation of democracy in your country and the imposition of a theocracy?
-- I'm glad I don't live in Holland or France - this Islamic thing is becoming a nightmare.

clark · 2005-08-12 05:20:18

Maybe you could ask the aboriginee's for their take of Australian democracy.

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