Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms...

Grypd · 2005-07-08 15:04:20

Well your idea was implemented by the Nazi and is genocide. Which was completely diffrent from what i said. I said that unless we want to strip the freedom women have we shouldn't be complain about the low birth rate in Europe.

Actually it was not the Nazis who invented the idea of racial seperation this is a very victorian idea.

And incidentally well into the 1960s Sweden used to sterilise women who gave birth out of childhood and the children of those women. It also used to sterilise the mentally ill too. I really wish I was joking.

It seems to me everyone complains about "Americanisation", even some people in America
Really? Never heard anyone complain.

Well the French object to it as they prefer there culture and Americanisation is refered to as Globalisation. There is one benefit though to there determination to keep there way of life. In modern Europe they have the highest Birthrate of any country. Actually there population will grow by 50% in 25 years at the rate things go there. Makes you wonder sometimes about the UKs lifestyle and Frances determination to keep its 35 hour week and very strong family policies.

Of course any european country could simply enact policies to increase its native population its just easier to get workers fully grown from abroad.

Stormrage · 2005-07-08 17:39:05

Well your idea was implemented by the Nazi and is genocide. Which was completely diffrent from what i said. I said that unless we want to strip the freedom women have we shouldn't be complain about the low birth rate in Europe.
Actually it was not the Nazis who invented the idea of racial seperation this is a very victorian idea.
And incidentally well into the 1960s Sweden used to sterilise women who gave birth out of childhood and the children of those women. It also used to sterilise the mentally ill too. I really wish I was joking.

I never said that the Nazi's inventied it. I said that they implemented the idea. The idea it's self is old and predates the Nazis.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2005-07-08 18:42:45

Someone please define Islamo-fascism?

Swedish ?

That's nothing comprae to what Chinese were up to, you went to a prision camp, you could be shot or to be worked to death and China's Mao killed eveyone, he didn't care what race you were the sentence is death.

The USA had lots of Eugenics and sterilise of mental-people, sterilisation of convicts, African-American drug addicts,there was a law in Virginia, Indiana was the first state to bring in Sterilisation laws . Forced sterilisation before asylum in the USA The USA that stated that certain people could
be forcibly sterilised, poverty stricken people, interracial marriages were not accepted in 30 states. This was not revoked until the late 1960s. Oregon Board of Eugenics was doing a lot of work in the 80s and there was forced castration in Oklahoma, the drug users and Latinos a lot happening in 1930 until 1990, faced the danger of forced sterilisation of people happens in East Europe - Romani women are subject to forced sterilization in slovakia and there is said to be sterilisation of women in the Czech Republic in a UN report

DonPanic · 2005-07-08 19:10:31

LO
some precisions.

The concept of "Nation" is quite recent, let's say 18th Century, and unification of the nations' cultures came with national education programs, end of XIXth Century.
Before that, instead of external immigration, in a country such as France, there were internal immigration motions with people speaking local patois or another language and seen as strangers by local populations.

After WWII, France lived with the traumatism of defeat by a Germany twice more populated than France by 1940.
Yet, during WWI, France had to mobilize almost every men from 18 years old to 45 years old to face up German armies.
That explains why France has a politic supporting immigration and high natality rate, and helping families, with lots of public free nurseries allowing women to work while babies are cared of by professionally diplomed staff, and very young children educated very early, from 3 to 6 years old, in public "maternal schools" described by foreign visitors as the best in the world.

Trebuchet · 2005-07-08 19:13:44

I'll weigh in with my opinion: I agree with Cobra and the others on this, mass immigration without assimilation is the geopolitical equivalent of pumping more and more gas into a tank with no working safety valve. Eventually things will explode, probably in Europe somewhere (although there is significant friction in other nations and areas of the world, too).

As for why natives get touchy about nonassimilation: Pretend, Stormrage, that the Phillipinos and westerners and whatnot who do most of the actual work in Saudi Arabia never left, and formed an increasingly large portion of the population there. They don't assimilate, don't give a fig for Islam, their women don't wear the veil in public, and barbecue pork ribs on the back porch, and otherwise offend the hell out of the locals. Do you think the Saudis would:

1) Quietly accept and joyfully open their arms in the spirit of multicultural understanding, and let lots of random Christians and Hindus wander through Mecca taking photos

or

2) Stop immigration and deport people en masse and generally throw a fit

or

3) Go crazy and blow stuff up and get people killed.

If you think anything other than 2 or 3 or both in some combination would be the outcome, think again. The situation is the same in Europe: they see great numbers of people offending cultural norms and tearing up their culture.

DonPanic · 2005-07-08 19:34:26

I'll weigh in with my opinion: I agree with Cobra and the others on this, mass immigration without assimilation is the geopolitical equivalent of pumping more and more gas into a tank with no working safety valve.

LO
In France, we agree with this, therefore, politic is to avoid communitarism and ethnic concentration places and schools.
Unhappily, the Jews are at the lead for sending their children to specific Jew schools, thus, unmixing with other children, and the opening of Muslim Schools make people fear the rising of communities closed to meltingpoting.
Up to the seventies, the were not people all dressed black and black hatted, immediatly recognizable as "jews", or people dressed up as "arabs" in the streets, or ostensibly veiled women.
I'm shocked when asking a Jew for which party he votes, is answer is the name of a israeli party, not a french one.
Nevertheless, France remains the country where the interethnic marriage rate is the highest in Europe.
I hope that children will revolt one day against the tough and straight religious education the parents give them.
Yet, proclaiming religious belonging is somehow a weakening fashion among teens since one year or two.

Palomar · 2005-07-09 11:33:09

*Now, now Treb...you really don't think it'd be #1? :;):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050709/ap_ … ly_4]Italy arrests 142 in anti-terror sweep

Of those arrested, 84 were immigrants and authorities issued 52 expulsion orders

This prompted by the London bombings.

--Cindy

Stormrage · 2005-07-09 13:07:27

I'll weigh in with my opinion: I agree with Cobra and the others on this, mass immigration without assimilation is the geopolitical equivalent of pumping more and more gas into a tank with no working safety valve. Eventually things will explode, probably in Europe somewhere (although there is significant friction in other nations and areas of the world, too).
As for why natives get touchy about nonassimilation: Pretend, Stormrage, that the Phillipinos and westerners and whatnot who do most of the actual work in Saudi Arabia never left, and formed an increasingly large portion of the population there. They don't assimilate, don't give a fig for Islam, their women don't wear the veil in public, and barbecue pork ribs on the back porch, and otherwise offend the hell out of the locals. Do you think the Saudis would:
1) Quietly accept and joyfully open their arms in the spirit of multicultural understanding, and let lots of random Christians and Hindus wander through Mecca taking photos
or
2) Stop immigration and deport people en masse and generally throw a fit
or
3) Go crazy and blow stuff up and get people killed.
If you think anything other than 2 or 3 or both in some combination would be the outcome, think again. The situation is the same in Europe: they see great numbers of people offending cultural norms and tearing up their culture.

The oil workers live in there own area. Away from the populated Musim cities.

Also they would never let anyone get in Mecca has that would break the law.

Trebuchet · 2005-07-09 16:43:17

The oil workers live in there own area. Away from the populated Musim cities.
Also they would never let anyone get in Mecca has that would break the law.

Yes, Stormrage, I'm aware that the Saudis keep the foreigners away, and don't let them in Mecca. That's why I said "Pretend". Saudi Arabia is NOT open and free like a western country; I merely wanted you to imagine it were, and think about what the Saudi reaction would be to a nonassimilating horde of foreigners living there.

BWhite · 2005-07-09 17:07:41

*Now, now Treb...you really don't think it'd be #1? :;):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050709/ap_ … ly_4]Italy arrests 142 in anti-terror sweep
Of those arrested, 84 were immigrants and authorities issued 52 expulsion orders
This prompted by the London bombings.
--Cindy

Italy is also withdrawing its soldiers from Iraq come September, 2005. France, who never sent soldiers to Iraq has recently given the US excellent cooperation with some police work to nab top terror suspects.

So, Cindy can we now agree that those who oppose the Iraq war can simultanesously be very anti-terror?

Yes, Stormrage, I'm aware that the Saudis keep the foreigners away, and don't let them in Mecca. That's why I said "Pretend". Saudi Arabia is NOT open and free like a western country; I merely wanted you to imagine it were, and think about what the Saudi reaction would be to a nonassimilating horde of foreigners living there.

I believe the true locus of Islamic terror (the nest of the queen & the primary funding source) will be found in Saudi Arabia. Until we eliminate the radical Sunni clerics who teach freely in Saudi Arabia, the "War on Terror" shall continue.

Stormrage · 2005-07-09 17:29:00

The oil workers live in there own area. Away from the populated Musim cities.
Also they would never let anyone get in Mecca has that would break the law.
Yes, Stormrage, I'm aware that the Saudis keep the foreigners away, and don't let them in Mecca. That's why I said "Pretend". Saudi Arabia is NOT open and free like a western country; I merely wanted you to imagine it were, and think about what the Saudi reaction would be to a nonassimilating horde of foreigners living there.

No you don't get it do you? The oil fields are far away from the cities that the workers and there families get there own enclosures.

Btw free and open? A minute ago you and Cobra were talking about stopping immigrantion and forcing people to either assimilate or get deported. Weird contradiction :hm:

Palomar · 2005-07-09 20:36:43

*Now, now Treb...you really don't think it'd be #1? :;):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050709/ap_ … ly_4]Italy arrests 142 in anti-terror sweep
Of those arrested, 84 were immigrants and authorities issued 52 expulsion orders
This prompted by the London bombings.
--Cindy
Italy is also withdrawing its soldiers from Iraq come September, 2005. France, who never sent soldiers to Iraq has recently given the US excellent cooperation with some police work to nab top terror suspects.
So, Cindy can we now agree that those who oppose the Iraq war can simultanesously be very anti-terror?

*Yes, Bill.

Yes...I'm aware that the Saudis keep the foreigners away, and don't let them in Mecca. That's why I said "Pretend". Saudi Arabia is NOT open and free like a western country; I merely wanted you to imagine it were, and think about what the Saudi reaction would be to a nonassimilating horde of foreigners living there.

Barbecued pork chop dinners for everyone?

--Cindy

Trebuchet · 2005-07-09 21:20:25

No you don't get it do you? The oil fields are far away from the cities that the workers and there families get there own enclosures.
Btw free and open? A minute ago you and Cobra were talking about stopping immigrantion and forcing people to either assimilate or get deported. Weird contradiction

The situation in Europe is analogous to the 'make believe' situation I was talking about. Make believe, as in, it does not accurately reflect what is happening in Saudi Arabia right now. I was asking you to pretend that WAS the situation, and consider what the reaction of the average Saudi in the street would be. I believe it's you who "isn't getting it". I understand perfectly well that the Saudis keep everyone seperated. I wanted you to consider what the reactions of the population there would be if that were not the case.

Btw free and open? A minute ago you and Cobra were talking about stopping immigrantion and forcing people to either assimilate or get deported. Weird contradiction

I believe I was making a somewhat sarcastic comment - which apparently sailed over your head - which demonstrated why Cobra and I thought that it was a good idea.

Grypd · 2005-07-10 04:19:22

There are a lot of foreign workers in Saudi Arabia and this does indicate a couple of things.

1) The Saudi populace does not have the skill base to be able to function properly and to do the jobs that are required.

2) The Saudi goverment does not trust its own people

DonPanic · 2005-07-10 07:29:19

France, who never sent soldiers to Iraq has recently given the US excellent cooperation with some police work to nab top terror suspects.

LO
France opposed to war at Iraq because, among the reasons, after the terrorists attacks on french soil in 1995 and after the Air France Algier Paris hijacking, palestinian and iraqi intelligence services fully cooperated with french secret services in tracking and deleting algerian GIA terrorists who committed these attacks.

Whatever were the USA-France disagreements on Iraq, antiterrorist cooperation never released. The french point of view that war at Iraq would spread terrorism instead of shrinking it was unhappily quite right.

dicktice · 2005-07-10 11:02:23

Oui, oui ... but what do we do, now that the U.S. has committed the error, which cannot be retraced without even more chaos resulting? A gathering together somehow, is the only way if the World is to be safe for peaceful reconstruction. Some constructive ideas starting from where we are NOW, please. Set aside blame and recrimination for later, when the innocent victims of indiscriminent terror attacks can afford to take off time for "I told you so's."

DonPanic · 2005-07-10 15:55:10

You're right,

Oui, oui ... but what do we do, now that the U.S. has committed the error,

I'm more balanced, toppling Saddam was not a mistake, I just think that could have done with threats, (as a chessplayer, I think that threat is often more efficient that direct action). Error was to destroy Iraqi administration infrastructure and to turn the Sunnis into direct foes and insurgents.
At first, more troops and more economic help are to be sent to Afghanistan where Talibans are increasily active.
For Iraq, "We shall stay as long as necessary" without giving a withdrawal calendar seems to me as a very doubtful rethoric, it might sound for the Sunnis as a pretext for a neverending occupation. Argument that the terrorists will just have to wait the troops return and then start again terrorism seems to me as wrong, if assured that the occupation will end, Sunnis have no more reasons to act as terrorists, if they share power with the Shias andthe Kurds.
By the way, iraqi Kurdistan must not become a rearbase for anti turk terrorism tourists are victims of.
Sunnis must be sure that war is not aimed at them as the crushing of Fallujah did. If so, if they don't need the terrorists' help anymore, they will get rid of the Al Qaeda murderers. With no more local support, Al Qaeda could be deleted in Iraq.
Maybe that's where the French can help, mending trust between US and the Sunnis, but I'm not quite sure that the french networks in Iraq kept some influence among the Sunni leaders.
In a conflict, if the aim is to gain peace, the looser must be abble to claim for victory. If the US say they will withdraw and when, the iraqi insurgents will claim this is a victory, maybe they will lower the number of attacks or stop attacks, and then there will be less casualties among the iraqi civilians and the coalition troops.
This is just an opinion, I can't say that I'm right or wrong.

Palomar · 2005-07-12 08:26:08

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050712/wl_ … lasts_dc]4 explosions on Spanish power station

*Rescind comments. Need to Google...

--Cindy

P.S.: ETA have anything to do with Al-Qaeda and similar ilk?

Palomar · 2005-07-12 09:52:40

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050712/ap_ … an_gogh]To murder victim's mother: "I don't feel your pain."

*And he admits he'd do it again, if given the chance.

"I can't feel for you because I think you're a nonbeliever," he said.

He preaches that anyone who thinks differently can be killed ...

Some persons in the courtroom stood up, stunned by his statements. Why the surprise? That he openly admitted it or that he feels that way to begin with?

--Cindy

Grypd · 2005-07-12 10:35:22

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050712/wl_ … lasts_dc]4 explosions on Spanish power station
*Rescind comments. Need to Google...
--Cindy
P.S.: ETA have anything to do with Al-Qaeda and similar ilk?

For a quick guide to ETA

ETA is the prime terrorist organisation of the Basque people. The Basques live in the region named after them in spain and just across the frontier into France. They are a celtic race and have a culture more similar to Irelands than mainland spain. Actually the IRA and ETA have very close links.

ETA has trained a lot of its people in Libya and used to recieve a lot of money and equipment from the same source. There does not appear to be any real links with Al-Qhaeda but in that murky world......

Palomar · 2005-07-12 14:10:34

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050712/wl_ … lasts_dc]4 explosions on Spanish power station
*Rescind comments. Need to Google...
--Cindy
P.S.: ETA have anything to do with Al-Qaeda and similar ilk?
For a quick guide to ETA
ETA is the prime terrorist organisation of the Basque people. The Basques live in the region named after them in spain and just across the frontier into France. They are a celtic race and have a culture more similar to Irelands than mainland spain. Actually the IRA and ETA have very close links.
ETA has trained a lot of its people in Libya and used to recieve a lot of money and equipment from the same source. There does not appear to be any real links with Al-Qhaeda but in that murky world......

*Okay, thanks Grypd. Initially I thought this might be related directly to Spain's previous involvement in the Iraq war (no gratitude from terrorists for that withdrawal).

Trying to keep all this stuff straight... {mind whirls a bit}

--Cindy

Stormrage · 2005-07-17 19:41:00

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050712/ap_ … an_gogh]To murder victim's mother: "I don't feel your pain."
*And he admits he'd do it again, if given the chance.
"I can't feel for you because I think you're a nonbeliever," he said.
He preaches that anyone who thinks differently can be killed ...
Some persons in the courtroom stood up, stunned by his statements. Why the surprise? That he openly admitted it or that he feels that way to begin with?
--Cindy

But the dude who got killed was a bit of an idiot. He was very Anti-Religon. Having naked women wear sentences from the Quran? I'm suprised that he didn't die earlier for that stupid and foolish act. He was asking for trouble and he got it.

Hogwarts motto

Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Never tickle a sleeping dragon

Cobra Commander · 2005-07-18 07:19:26

Alright, two brief comments.

Btw free and open? A minute ago you and Cobra were talking about stopping immigrantion and forcing people to either assimilate or get deported. Weird contradiction

See Treb's reply. I was not suggesting we stop immigration. I am suggesting that countries should control immigration to prevent their own demise and I maintain that no country has an obligation to let anyone in. If a representative sovereign state chooses to not admit anyone else, their call.

But the dude who got killed was a bit of an idiot. He was very Anti-Religon. Having naked women wear sentences from the Quran? I'm suprised that he didn't die earlier for that stupid and foolish act. He was asking for trouble and he got it.

Dude, that's akin to saying to a rape victim "you were asking for it, dressing like that."

Think about your statement and how screwy it really is. You may have inadvertantly illustrated part of the point of this thread.

BWhite · 2005-07-18 07:34:42

Now, you are correct:

Oui, oui ... but what do we do, now that the U.S. has committed the error,
I'm more balanced, toppling Saddam was not a mistake, I just think that could have done with threats, (as a chessplayer, I think that threat is often more efficient that direct action). Error was to destroy Iraqi administration infrastructure and to turn the Sunnis into direct foes and insurgents.
At first, more troops and more economic help are to be sent to Afghanistan where Talibans are increasily active.
For Iraq, "We shall stay as long as necessary" without giving a withdrawal calendar seems to me as a very doubtful rethoric, it might sound for the Sunnis as a pretext for a neverending occupation. Argument that the terrorists will just have to wait the troops return and then start again terrorism seems to me as wrong, if assured that the occupation will end, Sunnis have no more reasons to act as terrorists, if they share power with the Shias andthe Kurds.
By the way, iraqi Kurdistan must not become a rearbase for anti turk terrorism tourists are victims of.
Sunnis must be sure that war is not aimed at them as the crushing of Fallujah did. If so, if they don't need the terrorists' help anymore, they will get rid of the Al Qaeda murderers. With no more local support, Al Qaeda could be deleted in Iraq.
Maybe that's where the French can help, mending trust between US and the Sunnis, but I'm not quite sure that the french networks in Iraq kept some influence among the Sunni leaders.
In a conflict, if the aim is to gain peace, the looser must be abble to claim for victory. If the US say they will withdraw and when, the iraqi insurgents will claim this is a victory, maybe they will lower the number of attacks or stop attacks, and then there will be less casualties among the iraqi civilians and the coalition troops.
This is just an opinion, I can't say that I'm right or wrong.

:up:

Stormrage · 2005-07-18 08:16:42

Alright, two brief comments.
Btw free and open? A minute ago you and Cobra were talking about stopping immigrantion and forcing people to either assimilate or get deported. Weird contradiction
See Treb's reply. I was not suggesting we stop immigration. I am suggesting that countries should control immigration to prevent their own demise and I maintain that no country has an obligation to let anyone in. If a representative sovereign state chooses to not admit anyone else, their call.
But the dude who got killed was a bit of an idiot. He was very Anti-Religon. Having naked women wear sentences from the Quran? I'm suprised that he didn't die earlier for that stupid and foolish act. He was asking for trouble and he got it.
Dude, that's akin to saying to a rape victim "you were asking for it, dressing like that."
Think about your statement and how screwy it really is. You may have inadvertantly illustrated part of the point of this thread.

I always say if you ask for something and get it then don't complain. If i went into a pen with hungry lions while carriing red meat. I wouldn't be suprised to find them Lions jumping on me and killing me.

The man hates Religon in ever way and form. He even talked bullshit about jews and the Holocaust. When he jumped into the Islamophobia bandwagon no one cared anymore. The fact is he offended alot of people and angerd them. He shouldn't have expected nothing worse then getting murderd for spreading lies about things he doesn't know about. The only reason people let him get away with what he has done is beacuse Islamophobia is rife in the Core Europe. Thank god i live in the UK.

Edit: A raper usually has mental problem beacuse he/she finds it hard to fantisies and get pleasure from simple sex. Thats why they go has far has raping. In other words they were predestined to do something like thing. The man who killed him didn't he just acted on impulse.

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