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For Calliban re post about the inevitability of war, in the War Topic...
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 47#p214647
kbd512 has been posting thoughtful mini-essays about war which I find persuasive and insightful.
However, your post is as concise and clear an explanation of why war is inevitable as any I can recall.
The originator of the topic will be unable to accept the argument, but I believe it will ring true to most people.
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For Calliban about the scarcity of minerals ....
I am commenting here in order to avoid overwriting your Username in the topic Active list.
If I understand the issue of fewer minerals correctly, it's not so much that elements might be missing, but that on Earth, Nature has conspired to make elements more available for human use, than might be the case on Mars?
I was (and still am) wondering if minerals might have value in and of themselves, aside from concentrating elements.
That said, I think your point about abundant energy needed by humans on Mars is going to apply as well to any place Humans try to set up shop away from Earth. Humans have it (relatively) easy on Earth .... that doesn't mean that a lot of folks don't have to work long hours and take major risks to keep delivering the goods and services the unproductive citizens enjoy. On Mars, absent ** really ** abundant energy, I don't expect there would be a lot of leisure time available to citizens.
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In the post at the link below, Calliban provides a link to a report on development of a biological process to perform photosynthesis at 80% efficiency ...
The resulting bacteria are able to convert sunlight into acetate with 80% efficiency.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 76#p215876
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Test post
Apache Internal Server Error is blocking my message to Calliban
I'm building up the message sentence by sentence, using Preview to confirm it is accepted ...
Calliban, you put an interesting post into the Google Meeting topic ...
I'd be happy to move it to another topic you might prefer....
https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 71#p216071
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TH, yes thats fine. Wherever you think it fits best into the discussion.
Back in the old X-prize days, one of the condenders had proposed replacing a ceramic heat shield with a porous stainless steel plate. Water would sweat out of regularly spaced pores and would both cool the surface and reduce the temperature of the plasma ahead of the shield. I wonder what happened to that idea and if it would still be a practical proposition?
Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-21 05:01:02)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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For Calliban re #30...
Thanks for noting that the post about CO2 has an indirect connection to the Google Meeting topic.
After re-reading the post, I ** think ** you were picking up on GW's post about the design of the Rocket Hopper/Taxi for Mars.
GW made a presentation about his work in the meeting.
Please think about adding a word of reference to the post to which you are replying. When I saw the post for the first time, I did not see a connection to the topic.
You have the ability to edit your posts. Please consider doing something to help a reader of the topic to see what the connection might be.
GW has several topics devoted to rocket design, and specifically to the Rocket Hopper.
Because the post you provided needs a chance to shine in it's own topic, I've created one dedicated to heat shields.
As a reminder ...
You are most welcome to become an active member of the Google Meeting topic, but that ** does ** imply you will be requesting a meeting at a time that is convenient for our European members.
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For Calliban re My Hacienda ...
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 48#p216248
Thanks for bringing this topic back into view. It was based upon an ambitious concept of Louis, to set up a city (Sagan City) near the site of one of the landers in the historical record.
The My Hacienda topic is an attempt to identify all the business specializations that are needed to permit a first tier living experience for a small group of humans in an isolated location such as Mars, but it is not limited to Mars.
There are many small communities on Earth, and together they contribute to the gigantic interwoven economic dance that leads to the level of civilization we see on Earth in a few places.
The civilization on Earth that we see in full expression in a few places is the culmination of the efforts of billions of people, working together in operation of Smith's "Invisible Hand" to deliver a quality of life otherwise impossible to achieve.
The concept of My Hacienda is to see if a similar level of civilization can be achieved with fewer people.
Your vision of a spirits production facility is a good example for study, and it seems to me to be a valuable addition to the topic.
Your vision will depend upon others who specialize in production of other goods and services that you need. My hope is that (at some point) we will find forum members who will help to build out My Hacienda by identifying the specializations that are needed. We are currently thinking in terms of 7800 plots, each of which is a square kilometer in surface area, and not limited below ground, or above ground (within reason). Each plot can support multiple people, and more than one discipline, but the concept is to assemble the right mix of specializations to achieve and maintain a first tier level of civilization.
In this scenario, Earth can (and will) supply vast amounts of information, but there should be very little material product that is needed by the residents of Mars.
The flow of information can be unlimited, or limited only by equipment allocated for the purpose.
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For Calliban re drawings in Architecture topic ....
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 74#p216474
Thank you for these ** very ** helpful drawings.
It crossed my mind to wonder about the cathedral arches in Europe and elsewhere .... I haven't studied architecture, so do not know the answer to this ... is there a functional reason for the cathedral arches, or are they designed primarily for esthetic reasons?
Related question... The interior of the living spaces on Mars will need artificial lighting ... please add a hint as to where you would place LED (or other) lighting fixtures, in your arch design.
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Regarding cathedral arches, I take it you are refering to arched roof structures? In many European churches, the walls are masonry, but the roof is made from timber. Large timber members are angled at about 30° and meet at the crown of the roof, where they are bracketed. The two timber members are braced about halfway down for additional stability.
I cannot say for certain why large cathedrals opt for stone roofs instead. The larger the span, the more challenging it is finding timbers that are large enough. But I would inagine that part of the reason is the aesthetics of an entirely stone structure. Where this is done, cathedrals need very large buttresses to provide the horizontal reaction forces needed to keep the roof stable. Flying buttresses were one solution that allowed very high and wide stone roofs to be supported without lateral buttress walls getting ridulously large. But they look odd and precarious. They are essentially diagonal stone pillars that transfer horizontal forces into the ground.
Domes like the Roman pantheon avoided the need for buttressing, by choosing a parabolic roof shape. This allows the structure to absorb all forces through a combination of compressive and shearing forces within the freestanding stone structure, without the need for external buttresses providing horizontal reaction forces. On Mars, this is probably the best way of building roof structures, if tensile members are unavailable or expensive. Although buried structures could be buttressed by horizontal reaction forces from the regolith around them. So we could in theory build relatively flat masonry roofs, without tensile members. I just don't see the point in building something that difficult and precarious.
Last edited by Calliban (2023-11-27 18:23:37)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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As an aside, it is possible to build freestanding, pressurised, masonry structures on Mars, like castles or cathedrals.
This may seem counterintuitive, given that internal pressure acts horizontally against the internal walls. One would expect this to explode the structure, by pushing the walls outward. But the structure remains stable, so long as there is sufficient downward acting force, to result in the vector product of horizontal and vertical force, continuing to act downward through the wall, without subjecting it to unacceptable shearing stress. But the downward force (i.e. the weight of the overburden) must greatly exceed the horizontal force induced by pressure, or the walls must be very thick and tapered towards the base, or both. Flying buttresses could also absorb some of these stresses, as could perpendicular walls.
But none of these solutions are likely to be as cheap as building the structure underground. When you do that, the soil is effectively providing you with a free buttress against horizontal force. One that you don't have to build or pay for. And that buttress is stabilised by gravity.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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I believe the arch has a religion spiritual element to it but that is up to debate
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is there a functional reason for the cathedral arches, or are they designed primarily for esthetic reasons?
It's a 'Church' or 'Cathedral' so logic would say the teaching of religion texts are playing a role
The Tusk of an Elephant seen in ancient times or Mammoth is shaped like an arch, the path of the Moon and Sun in the sky moves in an arc, near the Equator, the noontime Sun will be straight overhead so a vertical stick will cast no shadow in middle latitudes, the length of daytime, as well as solar altitude would change and ancient people would have notice these changes, in high Arctic or Antarctic this arc is not seen but empty Caves and Lavatubes would have perhaps also provided a Caveman 'inspiration' for arch design, the Sun and Moon they also might emit a Halo optical phenomenon during fog. People have also tracked the circular path of the Sun and Moon and Stars in the sky as a way to from Asia to Egypt to Stonehenge prepare for seasons and survive, people might have also noticed to 'arch shape' was more stable structure that almost supported itself as they would Tunnel and Mine for Jewels and minerals, the miner digging for coal, chalk, clay, or other minerals has been around for thousands of years, people would mine to find mroe flint to start fires, the tunnels supported by underground by shafts. The tunnel with an arch roof might have been seen as more stable and good karma and 'blessed' by God or the Spirits, miners would find hard rocks mined or collected for axes and arrow heads, pigment was mined for painting on walls, bright stones mined for ornamentations in Egypt pottery. One tribe of people might have noticed there were better berries to pick and better animals to hunt in a field across a river, the bridge could have first been stepping stones, others might have just thrown rocks and logs in and blocked a river as a Beaver does but then ruined fishing for other people in the tribe and community. A Boat might have been used for a time but then water in the river might have become more dangerous, simple elevated foothpaths are made for crossing swap or across marshland. Eventually knowledge is passed, the builder, the mason or village elder and designer explains on ideas on how to build a structure built to span a physical water obstacle but unlike a fallen log or basic bridge, this is an arch stone structure like the Mycenaean Greek bridge that will stay standing over a long time.
Humans in space will have far more experience to draw on and far more aesthetic design to chose, they might pick live inside a large building or small but they will live in some pressurized building and because of this Mars will probably have a Dome Architectural or Cylinder element as you see on Aircraft, Boats, Submarines and the Space Station. We might build down not up on Mars, but we do have 'religion' on Mars discussion in threads so maybe if religious people do arrive they would want to build up instead for some religious meaning and not down. I think the arch traditionally in human history was simply a way to stack stone for roof and bridges to cross a small river or 'Brook' and maybe stacking an arch structure has been a normal part of human evolution once civilization is established and maybe later it becomes a symbol and is 'spiritual' or part of belief and ritual. Watching the path of the Moon or Sun across the Sky night have provided 'inspiration' for the arch design. Arches often had religious meaning but I believe were simply a function at first and then a people or culture develop their own style or aesthetic that almost defines their culture. I think in time AI will soon be suggesting types of lighting and design for interior structure on Mars, Artificial Intelligence is getting so good that I believe it is only a matter of time before it can design living spaces as good as humans can. I'm not sure structures as high as we see on Planet Earth would be so common on Mars. There might be limitation such as some type of restriction due to available material or what type of structure the Caves are. Mars for some time might have the 'Deepest Buildings' with Arches on top rather than tallest buildings like we see on Earth.
Once a single arch or corbel curved structure was created you could then bring in some of the most simple of serfs and point to them what needed to be done, they did not need an advanced education only to follow the instructions of an educated builder / stone mason or designer. This still happens across the world today, in the Middle East a lower class caste Indian foreigner of lower education can get a normal employment visa building structures in Arabia, it might not be the slave life of the past but sometimes it is not so different, the Migrant workers do not even need to know anything about building but only follow simple orders given by a more educated man, life might not be good for a builder today the suicides among Indian workers in the Middle East at very high levels and the 'Worker' living blue collar labour abuse might live a life of terrible Human Rights conditions a slight improvement on slave times.
I think a lot of us associate arches with Romans but the arch itself has been around much longer than Rome. Arches I believe were at the start mostly functional to build bridges or provide shelter or move stuff as a Roman aqueduct does but as they were built they become their own Aesthetic. The technique of corbeling might almost be instinctive and in our DNA at this stage an upside down birds nest, you almost see kids doing it as the stack stones at the beach to create a span, its been around since Egypt and longer and is maybe one of the easiest ways to make an Arch, some people however have lived basic and did not even have any written form of language and did not even have a wheel so you can not say every human group did or did not make an arch or had the same experience. Building these big wonders were difficult but the arch itself is common, everyone used this from the Maya to the Hittite Empire so it might be a natural independent evolution of civilization or people might have been in contact with other builders and artists and got 'inspired' by other designs. Even our most primitive hunter gatherer people built arch and domes to survive at the North Pole, Canadian Inuit and the Greenlandic Inuit, Finland Sami people, and the Yupik or Yuit, of eastern Siberia and Alaska creating an igloo also known as a snow house or snow hut, sometimes knowledge was survival and if your people did not know how to make things they died, these Indigenous peoples were nomadic they did not use stone and none of their structures remain, there probably are Native Cultures or Tribes who do not get full credit for some of their Structures there are new found Mounds or Temples which show some of them were able to make curved roof for a type of Lodge in the 'Pre-Columbian' era but the people were mostly nomadic and the structures less advanced than other civilization. Large Animal Tusk and mammoth bones might have provided a natural way of suggesting to the human to build a type of curved dwelling for their shelters. It might have required one group of Caveman to be slightly higher IQ and better forward thinkers, someone might have then started stacking some rocks or flat stones to match the curved shape of a tusk or rib cage and the tribe might have found stone does not blow away and erode so easily like an animal skin shelter or mudhut.
The Middle East, South America, Europe and Asia civilizations advanced, they stayed in one place and farming tech grows while others remained hunter and basic and they used a lot of stone which is still standing today. Once building of the span or bridge shape is culturally established it becomes useful in creating structures to keep the stand storm away or the heavy rains out, it might become a building of prayer or a religious 'tomb' and an arch build thousands of years ago will still remain standing and work today to provide shelter. In Babylonian Art and Architecture you see a lot of Blocks and Towers and Spans, you see lots of animal symbols like 'Lions' which might have been a symbol of strength, twelves and sixes and twenty four repeats a lot in shapes maybe as part of their system of counting but after a while Babylon faces invasion and falls and their spans don't seem to differ from ancient Mesopotamian society and culture more broadly. A designer might leave behind a legacy the doorway / wall with Arc above almost have the very same style in the Rome Basilica, Interior of the Pantheon or the walls of the 'The Colosseum' I do not know if there was an official standard or decree that something must be built to a certain procedure I imagine it did happen. In the sub continent of India the arches seem to be parts of burial chambers in ancient Hindu Empires, in China ancient Dynasty had arch bridges made some of them still in use. Mycenaean Greece building at times almost looks basic and primitive but Temple of Athena looks like a wonder later Greek culture more advanced, the Greeks were polytheist and had elements of humanism they also loved their math, they liked triangles but not as much as Egypt and Pyramids, you see references to Euclid, Pythagorean writing repeating in their structures Phi and the Golden Ratio. In the islamic style they invade and capture pre-existing temples, they take over Christian Churches and Jewish Temples Synagogue, they would take over Arab Pagan or Greek Roman buildings or invade places called "House of Yahweh" and smash anything non-muslim, they would make it an official temple of islam and do some redecoration making it arabesque, they might smash old iconography and ban symbols of anything but then put the pedophile terrorist Moongod symbol over every 'Mosque' they might smash a Buddha because islamic freaking out and jumping up and down with jihad war cries or a lot of pictures and art are almost banned outright the islamic interior stats to have these geometric art designs that look like designs you might see on a rug or carpet. It seems almost counter-intuitive that a culture not expanding and not exploring outward would become more advanced but sometimes with expansion comes new elements of chaos while remaining in one place you begin to see an accumulation of knowledge, library, stability and book keeping and a stronger more stable foundation
The Europeans have an obsession with the arch and Roman Catholics with so many uneducated plebeians and commoners to teach start to fill buildings with people and icons, people from Greek or Roman folklore or 'The Bible' appear in paintings and statue inside buildings, it was a way to teach illiterate people about their own 'King' or culture or 'Gods' or civilization. Tall looking arch structures might have been the skyscrapers of their time, the Pyramids of Egypt were probably the tallest structures until the modern Churches, the Eiffel Tower with its arch at its base was twice as high as the Great Pyramid of Giza, St Paul's Cathedral in London was taller than any other building, the French not wanting to be outdone by the Protestant Church of England and the English Monarch the English designers the French build Beauvais Cathedral with a cross shape and high arc but I think it soon suffered a collapse, it then becomes a contest between Germans and French, the Eiffel Tower with its arch has no religious meaning its own meaning to be one of main attractions at the Paris World's Fair. Europe soon lost the tower contest to the USA and then it becomes a contest of feats the US 'Skyscraper' pops up and dwarfs everything in Europe, new towers in major American cities, Frank Woolworth, Chrysler Corporation, the Rockefeller family name became associated with big works, Sears Tower, in modern days it became a contest Abraj Al-Bait Clock Tower Mecca from the mohammedan royals of Saudi Arabia, a contest between the WTC NYC before the Terrorist attacks of 911, One World Trade Center, Taipei 101 Taiwan, Merdeka 118 Kuala Lumpur Malaysia, Lakhta Center Russia, Shanghai World Financial Center, Lotte World Tower South Korea, Petronas Towers Malaysia, the Skyscaper of Dubai from a Sharia Law Absolute monarchy you might even argue today that these 'icons' are no different to Emperors and Pharaoh of our past and are modern tributes to their own human greed and narcissism and egos. I wonder how many of these structures will be around in many years and will they decay to dust and be outlived by other ancient wonders. 'Landmark 81' from Ho Chi Minh City the Capital of a 'poor' and Communist country of Vietnam towers above any massive wonder and structure from the ancient world. As a civilization grows for any culture they might want their own unique stamp or artistic style that makes their buildings different to the other people, the King or people or 'Emperor' might demand a new architectural style, city states might have competed with other city states do build better wonders, the Arch might be a celebration of a War as Emperor Augustus demanded a Triumphal Arch in celebration of the defeat of some wild Germanic Tribes. In Asian history a lot of the old arch fades and morphs into something else in Chinese in origin, there are influences from Hinduism, Taoism, Zoroastrianism and Indian Jani design. The Buddhists and Taoists would have had their own knowledge for building temples and a building now has a roof with curves the hip-and-gable roof and has spread across much of East and Continental Asia, these roof might have had their own functionality as the shaman or Buddhist of the times demanded a building to collect rainwater during a drought, Shinto shrines change and adapt elements of Buddhist design. As Europe exits the 'Dark Ages' there is a rebirth of things from Greece and Rome, new styles develop that are Romanesque architecture to reflect this dependence on basic Roman forms or another form becomes Renaissance their own interpretation of Greek mixed with Christian art, medieval castle get higher and higher, the raiders the North Africans and Turks and Scandinavia Vikings even leave behind their own cultural influences. Some people believe there were trade routes between islands and contient in the Americas before Columbus arrival in Meso-American although this is controversial but Viking raider Scandinavia culture and other Native Siberia Alaska Hunter Gatherer did arrive in North America before Columbus. The Corbel Arch at Mayan Ruins in Coba perhaps shows that arches have evolved perhaps with no contact with any link to the Middle East or European or Asian culture and it might just be part of the evolution of human civilization.
The Russian Orthodox Church Architecture seems almost like an amalgamation, a fusion of styles from Arabia, to India to Asia to Western Europe, they have muslim style or Arab influence but also Western design from Baroque churches, the arches are next to repeating Russian shapes diminishing octahedrons or octagons inside cubes. The Russian designs were sometimes combinations of onion domes and tent-roofs sometimes layered like dolls within dolls, the Dome becomes fatter and more barrel fat belly onion shaped, the identity of the architect of Saint Basil is unknown Legend held that Tyrant Tsar Ivan blinded the architect so that he could not re-create the masterpiece elsewhere, during the USSR the church was confiscated from the Russian religious community. The arch design eventually changes in Europe it gets taller and much taller than it is wide, it becomes a contest of towers, Western Europe is influenced by the Eastern Roman Empire or Byzantine architecture, the architecture of the church changes almost as a contest between the builders in Spain, Britain, Germany, Italy, the early Gothic arch becomes pointed almost like a bullet or arrow head, the shape of the Pointed arches get longer and go higher and higher —the spire gets higher the acoustic change and the knowledge of building improves, the material design changes and the arch becomes a spike and turret, the major churches in medieval French Gothic architecture are called flèches and some say the Higher the Dome, 'The Closer to God'. Popes became war mongers for a while and structures usually displayed or would exude authority, the church would be the central and highest building in a town or city. On Mars we might have a tower to guide aircraft during a dust storm as a lighthouse guides ships on Earth, maybe we use many new ideas from Earth simple 3-d printing or new manufacturing technology based on new material science or organic polymers on Earth, it is possible our arch might go downward instead of upwards, building deep pits and tunnels into the Martian land offering protection from Solar Radiation.
I cannot say for certain why large cathedrals opt for stone roofs instead. The larger the span, the more challenging it is finding timbers that are large enough. But I would inagine that part of the reason is the aesthetics of an entirely stone structure.
I think it was a contest the Kingdoms and nation states were in a constant battle and contest, sometimes at war with each other. People would keep building larger, more challenging taller structure to show how better they were or pay more tribute to the 'God' or some other Pagan Sky Fairy Deity or maybe Popes or Emperor or Kings did stuff in tribute to their own narcissism and egos. These days the contest at times seems to be war again but also seems to be science feats or economic gains or space feats, largest tunnel, biggest Soccer Stadium, big Mosque to keep the Jihadi Pakistani Mob in control and in Saudi Arabia bigger Mosque, big Hotel Train Station, big government Courthouse, most expensive Entertainment Resorts, longest bridge, maybe Pope's and Tsar and Emperors of the past worshiped themselves, it was a contest as governments and family dynasty do today.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-11-27 21:43:59)
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For Mars_B4_Moon re Post #36
I am back to post again in Calliban's topic, and reread #36 ... Thanks for your detailed and comprehensive review of the subject of arches in religious buildings.
On Mars, at least for now, it would appear they would be purely functional, but it is possible they may be adopted by someone for religious purposes.
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For Calliban ... just a quick note of appreciation for your support of Terraformer's initiative...
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10630
I cannot imagine anything like that catching on in the US ....
Communal living has a long history in Europe and elsewhere in the world.
There are little pockets of communal living experiments in the US, and for all I know, some may be able to survive.
My impression is that folks in the US have become familiar with the benefits of being spread out, and are unlikely to voluntarily give that up.
I'm hoping to encourage you to return to your "First Theme" of nuclear power.
The market for a 1 megawatt reactor that can be swapped out every twenty years ought to be quite large, in the US, and potentially the concept would work around the world.
Such a reactor would serve a community in modern comfort, and folks would not have to return to Roman practices.
Rolls Royce appears to have at least one executive with vision.
All it would take is ** one ** such executive, in the right place at the right time, to spark a revolution in thinking.
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TH, it would be much harder for Americans to adapt, I think. But it is worth remembering that the present trend of living in highly dispersed settlements is a recent development, even in the US. Go back 100 years, and suburbs were much less common. People live that way, because our energy sources and technology allow it. If the energy is no longer there, then the way of life that developed from it no longer works. The way of life develops from available energy rather than the other way around. This is why attempts at integrating renewable energy and developing electric transport are not working. Renewable energy siply cannot suppirt theway of life that people have grown accustomed to in the fossil fuel era. I am all for nuclear power, but the people in charge have put in place regulatory arrangements that are making it impossible. A 1MWe unit will suffer more from the regulatory drag, because it must spread site management costs over a smaller sales volume of power.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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For Calliban re #38
Thank you for considering the small reactor concept.
Your internal thought restrains are commendable and helpful in keeping you grounded.
I don't have that disadvantage, so am able to think about a large scale rollout of small reactors.
Here is an idea for your consideration:
Could a submarine reactor power a city?
A nuclear submarine typically generates power in the range of tens of megawatts, while a city's power demand can reach hundreds or even thousands of megawatts. Scaling up the power output of a submarine reactor to meet these requirements would require extensive modifications and engineering.Oct 23, 2023Can a nuclear submarine power a city? - TS2 Space
ts2.space
https://ts2.space › can-a-nuclear-submarine-power-a-city
Let me ask you a ** really ** nuclear reactor question, that (hopefully) you can answer without having to worry about social considerations.
If you were given a small nuclear powered submarine, and asked to install it to power a small town, how large a lake would you require to handle the heat flows?
That lake is going to warm up so it needs to be large enough to be able to radiate the excess heat to the sky at a rate that matches the reactor output.
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For Calliban re #38
Thank you for considering the small reactor concept.
Your internal thought restrains are commendable and helpful in keeping you grounded.
I don't have that disadvantage, so am able to think about a large scale rollout of small reactors.
Here is an idea for your consideration:
Could a submarine reactor power a city?
A nuclear submarine typically generates power in the range of tens of megawatts, while a city's power demand can reach hundreds or even thousands of megawatts. Scaling up the power output of a submarine reactor to meet these requirements would require extensive modifications and engineering.Oct 23, 2023Can a nuclear submarine power a city? - TS2 Space
ts2.space
https://ts2.space › can-a-nuclear-submarine-power-a-cityLet me ask you a ** really ** nuclear reactor question, that (hopefully) you can answer without having to worry about social considerations.
If you were given a small nuclear powered submarine, and asked to install it to power a small town, how large a lake would you require to handle the heat flows?
That lake is going to warm up so it needs to be large enough to be able to radiate the excess heat to the sky at a rate that matches the reactor output.
(th)
That is actually quite complicated to work out, because a large part of the heat will be lost due to evaporation. But lets ignore evaporation for a conservative estimate. Let us further assume that the reactor generates three units of waste heat for every unit of electric power. Assume also a sky temperature of 290K, a pond temperature of 300K and an emissivity of 1 from the water surface.
Q = 5.67E-8 x (300^4 - 290^4) = 58.24W/m2.
A reactor that generates 3MW of waste heat for MWe, would need a pond of 51,000m2 as a black body emitter. But the reality is that evaporating 1kg of water would remove 2.2MJ of heat from the pond. So evaporation would absolutely dominate the heat loss. Ultimately, evaporation transfers heat to air, which rises above the pond due to bouyancy.
To give an idea of the surface area needed for convective cooling, the Calder Hall nuclear power station was the world's first large nuclear powerplant. It generated 200MWe and produced about 600MWth of waste heat. This was ejected into two cooling towers, which were 88m tall and about 40m in diameter. So that is about 2500m2 surface area to eject some 600MW of heat. Or 240kW/m2. So for each MW of heat you need to dump, about 4m2 of evaporation area is needed.
Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-12 16:47:34)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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For Calliban re #40
Thank you for taking up the submarine question .... I posed the question as I did because submarines are designed to cool themselves with water within which they are immersed. A cooling tower would not interface to the submarine directly, but it occurs to me that a cooling tower might help to keep the pond cool.
A related concern is availability of sufficient water to replenish evaporated water. This would not be a problem for cities located near the ocean, because the supply of replacement water is not limited, as would be the case inland.
A submarine based reactor would not be at risk from earthquakes, tornadoes or hurricanes, as a traditional reactor is.
The technology used for US nuclear submarines is decidedly "old school", but there are active and retired personnel trained in safe operation of the equipment.
It seems to me that any site within piping distance of the ocean might be considered for one of these installations.
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For Calliban re Post in Balloon's topic
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 24#p217324
Thank you for taking a look at GW's paper! I like your suggestion of using such balloons for photography.
Another application might be advertising. That thought flows from your suggestion of printing on the envelope.
Mars_B4_Moon had (?has) a persistent vision of balloons wafting through the atmosphere of Mars, and GW has provided a solid foundation for that vision to become a reality. The practical details of fabrication of very thin, very large balloon envelopes able to hold hydrogen will be challenging, but on Earth some very large balloons have been flown.
Item: NASA ...
This Giant, Ultrathin NASA Balloon Just Broke an Altitude Record
www.space.com › Space Exploration › Tech
Sep 12, 2018 · NASA's gigantic, ultrathin balloon, known as the "Big 60," broke a record for highest balloon altitude maintained during flight when it took ...
https://www.nasa.gov/centers-and-facili … es-flight/
The "big 60" name appears to refer to 60,000,000 cubic feet of volume achieved by this design.
I asked Google for the diameter of a sphere with a volume of 60,000,000 cubic feet, and it came up with 148 meters:
Sphere
Solve for diameter
d≈485.72ft
V Volume 60000000 ft³
Unit Conversion:
V≈1.7×106m³
Using the formulas
V=4
3πr3
d=2r
Solving for d
d=(6V
π)⅓=(6·1.7×106
π)⅓≈148.04685m
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For Calliban re recent addition to RTG topic ...
Thanks for the post #4: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 53#p217453
It would appear (from your report) that quite a bit of work has been done in this field.
The market that may be most enticing is the automotive and trucking one ... Batteries for these applications can be large enough so that ancillary features (such as shielding) can be tolerated, in return for power density and long term delivery.
I'll offer 10 Kw for 5 hours as an interim goal Achievement of a working system at that level would justify branching above and below that mark, to reach the corresponding markets.
10 Kw for a week would make a nice home backup system.
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For Calliban re recent post about the remarkable survivable of a wind mill tower in the UK...
Thanks for this post, and for the detail about how that mill was restored to enthusiasts!
Those enthusiasts might be willing to try one or more of your advanced technology ideas (delivery of power using compressed air or water vs belts).
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I just re-read the "wind" topic, and found a post you contributed ... I'm wondering if your idea about using a chimney on a slope on Mars might allow for capture of some of the waste heat from the KRUSTY design. That design is small for a reactor, so the energy savings with clever design would be modest, but it seems to me you might be able to help NASA improve the performance of the system, and you could thus earn a footnote in history.
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Related ... does your Masters Degree work stand up to the passage of time? Can it be adapted/updated, to compete in the current age?
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For Calliban re support of GW Johnson's efforts at Exrocketman1, and specifically for support of the Mars land train.
The existing trains topic might be a good place to develop those ideas further.
We (NewMars) could go beyond the vision to select/recommend specific hardware that could be transported to Mars.
A wire guide for the vehicles would be a simple means of insuring the train stays on track. On the other hand, since the train is moving so slowly, remote operation (teleoperation) is possibility.
Automation is advancing rapidly on Earth, as shown by aircraft that operate independently of humans, and now sea going craft.
Work on automation of land vehicles on Earth is progressing, but failure modes are severe enough so that restraints have been imposed.
I expect that eventually land vehicles will be capable of safe operation independent of human control.
Mars currently has no GPS system, but when one is launched, land vehicles will be able to keep track of location with accuracy.
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For Calliban re Solar Panal initiative (Panama Canal)
Please evaluate the report of a ? successful ? experiment performed by Duke Energy in Florida.
I am wondering how to interpret their report of 1 MW of output for 2 acres of space.
I assume this ** must ** be the maximum, but perhaps that output can be maintained for 8 hours?
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I'd like to see if your hydraulic energy storage system would work in Panama?
Related... The Gatun Lake is up to 400 feet deep.... Can energy be stored in the form of lead (or other heavy mass) weights and lifted out of a vertical air column to store energy? Is this practical, in any way, shape or form?
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For Calliban re energy storage in a lake....
Post #46 is about raft mounted solar panels....
The claimed performance is 1 MW for 2 acres in Florida, which compares to 80 MW for 500 acres claimed for an agricultural setting in the Northern US. The Florida performance would extend to 250 MW for the same 500 acres, if it is accurate.
In this post I am inviting your evaluation of two energy storage systems that might work for the raft mounted panels.
In both cases I am interested in the possibility of storing energy below the water line, and therefore not visible to the human population near by.
One method would be to mount a weight in an evacuated tube, and draw energy by allowing gravity to pull the weight down while a cable turns a generator shaft.
The other would use compressed air.
I'm not sure if one method is superior to the other, but both would suffer from the buoyancy problem if the chamber below water is evacuated.
The heavy weight solution might be designed to operate without the enclosure, in which case buoyancy would not be a problem, but now the system would have to be designed to survive immersion in water, and the winding mechanism would have to deal with wet cable.
There may be other energy storage systems that would work better in these circumstances.
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For Calliban re Post in Damascus Steel topic...
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 89#p218489
Thank you for this substantial contribution to the topic, and particularly for the distinction between pattern welding and Damascus Steel.
This forum is fortunate to have two members who have attempted forging at all, let alone the sophistication of Damascus Steel.
In connection with Mars, please take up the question of using Hydrogen as a gas for steel forging.
Because Hydrogen is reported to have a higher upper temperature than hydrocarbon fuels, I am hoping it would perform well on Mars, where is it far more readily available than would be any of the hydrocarbons.
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For Calliban re image of Engineering Drawing created by DALL-e via ChatGPT4 via tahanson43206.
It is a wonder that after all those transformations, we got as much of your original concept as we did.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 59#p218759
The objects in the ring look a lot like CRT cathode ray tube assemblies to direct electrons toward the phosphor screen. DALL-E has a huge repository of images to draw upon, and something in my description of your drawing inspired that choice. It ignored the quantity of four that was specifically requested, and the articulated arms ended up as just one.
Thank you for providing the engineering drawing to work from.
Speaking of the drawing ... I noticed that the collection cute and bucket are missing from the bottom of the drawing. Bilateral Symmetry would expect that chute and bucket to be there, so I'll include it in my next attempt to explain the drawing to ChatGPT and DALL-E. I also think the reference to the Canadian Arm would have over-complicated the request, because DALL-E would have gone looking for images relating to the Canadian Arm. The objects in the ring may be rocket bodies.
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For Calliban re Solar Project link
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 39#p218839
SearchTerm:solar power home project 12 volts - panel plus controller plus battery
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