Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

SpaceNut · 2022-01-20 18:04:39

One issue like all of the measurement units we make use of water is with content that is of mixed unit types. So we need to make the units all be the same so as to make calculations easier.

I am thinking that we would want to have the pipeline underground as its going to be made up of multiple lines and many pumping units to keep it flowing.

We would want to since the distance is more than 60 miles to the Arizona border consider making use of small lakes to make use of the means to have gravity powered systems in play as well as for solar to move the water down the pipelines towards the desalination plant or plants since we will have the nuclear reactor close to that operation and not really being used to move the water from the source.

Phoenix is several hundred more miles to where the water is needed.

The inlet side of the pipeline will need to extend well into the ocean at depth to keep people and garbage out of the system possibly a couple hundred feet out and down by at least by a hundred.

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-20 18:17:26

For SpaceNut re #76

This post is to provide support for your recommendation that a pipeline from the Sea of Cortez should be underground.

The topic contains posts which contain links to reports of studies carried out by citizens of Arizona to consider the question at hand.

I can report that at least one of the studies explicitly called for pipes to be underground Another detail that I found (a bit) surprising was the recommendation that two parallel pipes should be strung up the elevation between the Sea of Cortez and the destination at a point in Arizona, and one pipe for the down slope run. The explanation given in the report of the study was that engineering analysis showed that the two up / one down design was more energy efficient.

Another detail that I (seem to) recall from that study was that the distance was 100 miles rather than 60. My guess (without going back to the source) is that the route chosen for the pipe originated at a location on the Sea of Cortez coast that was South of the optimum location. The people of Mexico have a strong interest in controlling this proposed activity. In another study, carried out by folks from the US and Mexico, working together to consider the question, identified a number of possible sites on the coast of the Sea of Cortez that might be acceptable to the Mexicans. I would imagine the 100 mile run was from one of those approved siters.

Regarding the inlet configuration .... the Mexicans have constructed a (small scale) desalination plant (also reported earlier in this topic). Your recommendations for inlet location would be interesting to compare to the actual physical plant design that is in operation today.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-01-20 18:42:58

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_California

https://wrrc.arizona.edu/sites/wrrc.ari … 4-8-21.pdf
YOUR WATER. YOUR FUTURE.

https://fronterasdesk.org/content/16516 … 0-complete
desalination plant in neighboring Sonora, Mexico

https://watereuse.org/wp-content/upload … _Paper.pdf
Overview of Desalination Plant Intake Alternatives

https://watereuse.org/wp-content/upload … _Paper.pdf
Desalination Plant Intakes Impingement and Entrainment Impacts and Solutions

https://texaswater.tamu.edu/readings/de … rdesal.pdf
An Overview of Seawater Intake Facilities for Seawater Desalination

https://idadesal.org/wp-content/uploads … -10-13.pdf
SUSTAINABLE MANAGEMENT OF DESALINATION PLANT CONCENTRATE - DESALINATION INDUSTRY POSITION PAPER – ENERGY AND ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE OF THE INTERNATIONAL DESALINATION ASSOCIATION (IDA)

https://serc.carleton.edu/integrate/tea … erials/709

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-20 19:39:18

For SpaceNut re #78

Thank you for a terrific looking search and discovery session!

SearchTerm:Intake for desalination plant multiple citations with specific examples
SearchTerm:Desalination plants multiple citations - includes Sonora working plant

I was struck by the detail of a flow of water down from the intake to a facility under the sea bed!

It will be fun to learn why that was done!

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-21 11:59:22

For SpaceNut ...

Thanks again for all the work you put into Post #78

In beginning to follow links, I started with the one above the image, and found this in the web site:

Currently, costs for the most efficient plants are well below $1/m3, or between ~$1000-2000 per acre-foot (Figures 3 and 4). This is still more expensive than imported surface water or groundwater in most areas (these costs range from $400-1000/acre-foot, depending on location), but in the realm of viability for areas without those sources, or to augment limited supply.

The cost figures I found of interest are the traditional supply estimates. Those are the targets that a nuclear energy powered water supply service would need to meet, in order for Capitalism to win the day.

An enterprise that seeks to sell fresh water at those prices is going to need to make enough from the extracted materials in sea water to cover the subsidy that would be in play to compete with traditional water sourcing.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-01-22 21:19:20

Well the quote is exactly what I am talking about as we measure in gallons.. so what was the real cost...

a couple more ideas
Nevada geothermal power lawsuit bound for US appeals court

I am thinking that the state of Arizona might be able to make use of the same geo thermal source.

then again the waste stream can be processed as well
This California Dairy Farm’s Secret Ingredient for Clean Electricity: Cow Poop

Manure and waste water from the farm’s nearly 7,000 cows are transported and sifted into a 25-million-gallon rectangular pit in the ground called a digester. The liquid sits for about 30 days while methane gas rises to the top of the closed digester.
Bloom Energy's fuel cell system at Bar 20 Dairy. Along with the farm's solar arrays, the one-megawatt system provides enough electricity to power all of the dairy farm's needs.
The fuel cell system, which started operating in October, is expected to produce about 8.5 million kilowatt-hours of power per year, which is equivalent to powering over 750 homes, according to Bloom.

SpaceNut · 2022-01-23 14:48:27

lots of fresh water with An iceberg once bigger than Delaware dumped nearly 1 trillion tons of water in the ocean

cost to desalinate water
https://smipp.wordpress.com/2017/02/13/ … lant-cost/

The installed cost of desalination plants is approximately $1m for every 1,000 cubic meters per day of installed capacity. Therefore, a large-scale desalination plant serving 300,000 people typically costs in the region of $100 million. The costs of infrastructure to distribute water must be added to this.
The cost of desalinated water, the majority of which is accounted for by plant capital costs and energy costs, is typically in the range of $0.5 to $3 per cubic meter of water (0.05-0.3 dollar cents per liter of water)

https://www.advisian.com/en/global-pers … salination

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 04WR003749
Evaluating the costs of desalination and water transport

so its more than what is quoted...

https://www.asknumbers.com/cubic-meters-to-gallons.aspx
264.172052 us gallons

something to keep in mind is the water from teh ocean is getting fresh water that can be contaiminated going into it from our rivers

How a toxic chemical ended up in the drinking water supply for 13 million people

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-27 11:59:12

For SpaceNut re Post #82

Thanks again for your several helpful links in this post. In particular, thanks for noting the contamination of ocean water by land activities.

A desalination plant on Earth needs to be able to remove ** that ** contamination, and the plan I am proposing for Arizona would certainly accomplish that, because the plan I have proposed would collect ** all ** atoms from the intake steam, and purify them to element form, for sale on the open market.

***
The text below was included in a Contact Form submitted to TerraPower's web site. No response is expected.

January 27, 2022
Congratulations on continued progress toward your goal of building and operating a Sodium cooled fission reactor in Wyoming, USA, by 2028.
It is good to see your negotiations with Mitsubishi Corporation have resulted in a favorable agreement for cooperation.
***
If your representative decides to engage with this inquiry, your correspondence is to be published in an online forum.
The forum is an activity of the Mars Society, and the connection to TerraPower is the need for nuclear fission power to support any practical settlement attempt on Mars.
In thinking about applications for nuclear fission power that would be equally useful on Earth as well as on Mars, members of the NewMars forum are comparing the needs of the citizens of Phoenix, Arizona, for fresh water from the Sea of Cortez, with the needs of future citizens of settlements on Mars, where water will be found heavily encumbered with a variety of materials.
A successful implementation of a nuclear powered desalination facility to serve the citizens of Phoenix would seem likely to be a model for a similar facility on Mars, except that the input on Mars will be even more encumbered with non-water materials than is the case at the Sea of Cortez.
***
The design of TerraPower is of interest because it uses Sodium as a coolant.
A proposed desalination solution for Arizona would collect every atom that arrives by pipeline from the Sea of Cortez, and would return NONE of that material to the Sea of Cortez.
Production of brine and contamination of the Sea of Cortez is already in progress in Mexico, where a traditional desalination facility is in operation.
***
The business case for a nuclear fission powered desalination facility for citizens of Arizona depends upon a successful discovery of marketing opportunities:
1) Water for agriculture would be in competition with increasingly scarce supplies from naturally delivered fresh water via rivers
2) Chlorine has value on the open market
3) Sodium has value on the open market, and the potential use of Sodium in Natrium reactors may be an opportunity
4) Water for public use (ie, potable water) would be in competition with several existing sources, including surface water and underground aquifers
5) All minerals/substances not described above are available from Sea of Cortez intake, and all are of value in the open market when brought to competitive purity.
***
The proposition to be tested is that a nuclear fission reactor can pay for itself using available market returns.
It will take a work force of folks with sharp pencils (or the digital equivalent) to determine if this proposition succeeds or fails.
***
Thank you for considering this inquiry.
A reply is not expected, but one would be most welcome!
Moderator tahanson43206
NewMars forum
Mars Society

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-27 14:34:26

The article at the link below seems (to me at least) to do a pretty good job of showing how the people of New Mexico have been avoiding the looming problem of water scarcity.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/tr … 14123.html

But while water reform often faces challenges in the legislature, there have already been some recent changes in the Governor’s Office. Though she hasn’t yet appointed a new state engineer, Lujan Grisham created a new position in January — a state water advisor. She hired Mike Hamman, a former water manager in the middle Rio Grande, who will help build water policy with a greater focus on resilience and flexibility.
“Whether we can meet every severe drought year or not is yet to be determined, but we’re going to take a really good run,” says Hamman. “The biggest concern as a water professional and a longtime water manager is, `Do we have the capability and the resources to rapidly adapt to the changing conditions?’ Those are the things that are keeping us up at night.”
Searchlight New Mexico is a non-partisan, nonprofit news organization dedicated to investigative reporting in New Mexico.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-01-28 12:28:18

I am inspired by the article at the link below, because it seems (to me at least) to show understanding of what settlers are Mars will be thinking and doing from day one. The natural abundance on Earth is not present on Mars.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/water-drying … 00934.html

We need to look at how we spend our money on items that have large water consequences, too. A hamburger on a roll with lettuce and tomato requires 660 gallons of water, according to the Water Footprint Calculator. A salad takes 21. If we required that information on packaging, people might find it easier to make choices to benefit the planet.
We also need to redirect farm subsidies to encourage water conservation. In 2020, $20 billion was paid out to farmers in subsidies that sometimes encourage water waste, and the word subsidies was linked to this as supporting evidence:
Farmers are encouraged to grow crops without any attention paid to the water costs of what is being subsidized. Rather than incentivizing wasteful water use, the farm bill could reward water conservation.
<snip>
Reducing food miles counts toward helping solve other problems. This won’t be our last pandemic. We need a local supply chain, so we don’t have to count on getting food across borders. These indoor farmers could rise on land currently occupied by empty malls near dense cities, in huge offices that are likely to go dark and stay that way with the shift toward working from home.
Creating more farmland is not the solution, because that releases carbon and often encourages other unsustainable practices. We must make current farmland as productive as possible and use our water efficiently. At a certain point that will be an imperative, not a desire.
My year as a subsistence farmer: The supply chain crisis reached even me
Before I got into farming, I worked on solar projects for the government. We talked often about energy security, but I kept reading that food security was a greater danger, that civilizations could collapse without easy access to water and food. I became inspired with the model of the Netherlands, of developing agriculture under glass that uses far fewer harsh chemicals and up to 90% less water than is typical. The Netherlands was forced to be creative after World War II, when tens of thousands of people died and millions more suffered from malnutrition because parts of the country relied on imported food.
Climate change (and the water shortages that plague agriculture) pose a more imminent threat to civilization than war. We are too blasé about coming climate shocks, and too happy to continue living off of a long and illogical supply chain that, like coal, can’t sustain us indefinitely.
Jonathan Webb is founder of AppHarvest, a Kentucky-based operator of one of the largest high-tech indoor farms in the world. He has a bachelor’s degree in business from the University of Kentucky.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-01-29 13:43:39

Why don't Arizona cities require residents to conserve water? It's simple, really

Water is drying up. We need to change the way we eat so we can change the way we farm.

when you farm, look for the best systems for water reuse so you don’t suddenly find yourself shut off from the one resource you can’t do without.
Because if you don’t change the way you use water, you too could become a ghost town.
Food supply chain
California produces two-thirds of the country’s fruits and nuts and more than a third of the vegetables we eat. Within 30 years, the San Joaquin Valley, which accounts for more than half of the state’s agricultural output, could have as many as 85 days that are hotter than 95 degrees, compared with the 44 days that have been typical. About 90% of our leafy greens are grown in Arizona and California. Greens can’t grow in those conditions.

e63cdd3838dc92b84d1b312dbbebb2be

We can’t keep outsourcing agricultural production to different parts of the world. During the pandemic, long supply chain problems left grocery shelves empty of the food consumers need. At some point, they could be empty of food people need to live.
A hamburger on a roll with lettuce and tomato requires 660 gallons of water, according to the Water Footprint Calculator. A salad takes 21.

That is going to impact what we do on mars and not just here

Another place to get water from The Great Lakes are Higher Than They’ve Ever Been, and We’re Not Sure What Will Happen Next

Across the 5,241 miles of Great Lakes shoreline, tribes, cities, vacationers, and wildlife managers are grappling with devastating flooding and erosion. It’s a different story from the nation’s coasts, where rising seas are creeping inland at a steady pace. Instead, the five Great Lakes fluctuate naturally by season—though over the past four decades, they’ve bounced both above and below historic records. Experts suspect that climate change is partially driving these shifts, but because of the complex nature of the water, it’s hard to isolate human factors from the rest of the turbulence. That leaves states like Michigan with little room to prepare for the lakes’ next turn.

Looks to me that a pipeline that brings fresh water to the desert area would be less costly.

Water concerns in New Mexico cross party lines

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-02 18:08:52

https://www.yahoo.com/news/water-offici … 00959.html

The Santa Fe New Mexican
Water official tells Senate panel drought leaving mark on N.M.
Robert Nott, The Santa Fe New Mexican
Wed, February 2, 2022, 11:01 AM
Feb. 2—Rolf Schmidt-Petersen said the trees tell the story.
Drought, climate change and low precipitation, he noted, are leaving their mark on New Mexico's vegetation and fragile ecosystems.
"Dying trees in the watersheds and habitats," the director of the Interstate Stream Commission told members of the Senate Conservation Committee on Tuesday. "That's the first place we see it."
Though Schmidt-Petersen said a first draft of a 50-year water plan won't be made public until early summer, he told lawmakers the document will focus on recommendations for improving watershed systems — highlighting where water resiliency programs work and don't work. It also will include suggestions on how individual communities can develop best water-use practices.
"We need to assess and plan for resilience," he said.
The report will include input from a number of public webinars the Interstate Stream Commission conducted in the fall regarding water use and preservation methods in public water systems, watersheds, agriculture and industry.
Meanwhile, he said his agency's research shows 77 percent of the state's water use goes to irrigation for agriculture. Another 10 percent goes toward public use. Perhaps surprisingly, just 6 percent goes to industry, including mining, oil and gas. The remaining 7 percent is evaporation, he said.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-05 21:03:33

The Water Tap on the Utah Legislature: Bills, bills everywhere and not a drop to drink

Addressing water resources in the wild, House Bill 118 calls for increased collection and publication of survey data on important wetland habitats, such as those that surround and sustain the shrinking Great Salt Lake ecosystem. House Bill 131 seeks to establish and fund a state Watershed Restoration Initiative that would "manage, restore, and improve" watershed ecosystems for health, biological diversity, water quality and yield

SpaceNut · 2022-02-09 19:46:27

Another state trying to get there share of the south Platte river Nebraska water groups endorse proposed $500M Colorado canal

SpaceNut · 2022-02-13 14:48:01

Water shortages and climate change: a conversation with the New Mexico governor

In 2019, a bill to fund the governor's promised 50-year water plan was rejected in the legislature and today, the state's budget remains strongly dependent on tax and royalties from oil and gas.

What should Arizona governor and legislative candidates be saying about water?

tahanson43206 · 2022-02-16 13:08:13

For SpaceNut .... I'm wondering if this solar powered water filter might work with your contaminated well water? It is claimed to be 80% efficient in separating water molecules from the underlying supply.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/device-deliv … 50693.html

This New Device Can Deliver Clean Drinking Water for Just $4
Miriam Fauzia
Tue, February 15, 2022, 3:31 PM
Freshwater is essential to all life on Earth, but water shortages brought on by climate change, pollution, and increased human demand make that resource harder and harder to come by. Water scarcity impacts over two billion people around the world. According to UNICEF, that number could balloon to half of the world’s population by 2025. Nearly half of the United States' 204 freshwater basins are projected to have monthly shortages by 2071, according to one 2019 study.
Of course, there is one insanely vast source of water that covers 70 percent of the planet: the ocean. Through a filtration process called desalination, unusable seawater is converted into freshwater. It’s a method that has been employed mainly in the Middle East, but also increasingly in water-stressed parts of the U.S., particularly California.
One major problem desalination systems face is the fouling of equipment caused by salt buildup, which requires a device’s parts to be cleaned regularly or replaced entirely if damaged. In pursuit of a solution, researchers at MIT and Shanghai Jiao Tong University in China have developed a solar-powered desalination device that avoids salt buildup and could provide a family with continuous drinking water for only $4.
In a new paper published in Nature Communications on Monday, the researchers describe their new invention: a floating, inexpensive, solar-powered desalination device that harnesses a natural phenomenon called convection, which is the tendency of fluids (and gasses) to rise to the top when heated and sink when cooled.
While most desalination systems rely on a wick to draw out the salt and other impurities from water through a device, the researchers instead developed a wickless system that’s layered. The bottom-most layer is perforated with tiny holes and draws up water toward the top-most layer, which is made of a dark material that absorbs sunlight. Water at the surface is warmed by the sun’s rays, evaporates, and collects on a condensed surface as drinkable water. The salt that’s left behind after the water evaporates flows down to the bottom layer through the tiny perforations.
An animation of the perforated filtration system run through natural convection.
Courtesy MIT
Evelyn Wang, a mechanical engineer at MIT and co-author of the new study, said in a statement that this perforated layer makes convection possible, by allowing “for a natural convective circulation between the warmer upper layer of water and the colder reservoir below.”
The researcher’s test apparatus operated for a week with no signs of salt accumulation. The device also held up well and was stable when the researchers ran it through conditions simulating waves on an ocean or a lake.
So far this is just a bench-top proof of concept, but the researchers hope to develop their device into something that can be mass produced and used by individuals and families, especially for those living in remote communities. These devices could also provide clean water during natural disaster relief efforts.
The research team also thinks the device’s solar power—which was shown to be 80 percent efficient in converting solar energy into water vapor—has the potential to provide concentrated steam that can be used to help sterilize medical tools in rural areas.
<div class="inline-image__caption"><p>A prototype of the solar-powered desalination system. </p></div> <div class="inline-image__credit">Courtesy of Lenan Zhang, Xiangyu Li, Evelyn Wang, et al.</div>
A prototype of the solar-powered desalination system.
Courtesy of Lenan Zhang, Xiangyu Li, Evelyn Wang, et al.
“I think a real opportunity is the developing world,” Wang said. “I think that is where there's the most probable impact near-term, because of the simplicity of the design. [But] if we really want to get it out there, we also need to work with the end users, to really be able to adopt the way we design it so that they’re willing to use it.”
Read more at The Daily Beast.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-02-17 19:59:58

Need to do more googling as the article does not give enough data to determine the company which is making it or what it entails with its filtering processes.

https://news.mit.edu/2020/passive-solar … ation-0207

https://news.mit.edu/2022/solar-desalin … nsive-0214

SpaceNut · 2022-03-01 20:30:38

Solar Power and water seems to be capable with these New Solar Panel Design Uses Wasted Energy to Make Water From Air

tahanson43206 · 2022-03-01 21:43:42

For SpaceNut re #93 ... your link to the Saudi Arabia research led to related articles, and this showed up:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … ar-AAUtr5T

This is early going, but I ** think ** I see hints of potential for Mars!

The Daily Beast
These Tiny Robots Could Usher in the Future of Clean Water
Miriam Fauzia - 11h ago
© Provided by The Daily Beast
All living organisms need heavy metals like zinc and iron to survive and properly function. But increasingly, metals from industrial waste, mining, landfills, and even overcrowded cemeteries are leaching into the environment and contaminating it. Exposure to heavy metals like arsenic, cadmium, and lead—even at low concentrations—can seriously threaten human health and the planet’s biodiversity.
One solution to this type of contamination may be tiny robots. In a study published Tuesday in the journal Nature Communications, researchers at the University of Chemistry and Technology in Prague have created magnetic, temperature-sensitive “nanorobots” that can pick up and dispose of pollutants in water.
In recent years, scientists have been greatly interested in harnessing nanotechnology to address water pollution and wastewater treatment. Conventional water treatment systems often require multiple, complicated steps to clear contaminants out of water. And many of these steps leave behind many pollutants like metals. Some novel nanomaterials get around this problem by utilizing a high surface-to-volume ratio and by targeting specific toxins.

Using nanorobots to clean up the sludge isn’t exactly a cakewalk. One problem with using these tiny, synthetic janitors is that the motors that propel them—which often rely on non-toxic metal catalysts—degrade easily, giving the nanorobots a short lifespan.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-09 18:29:47

It's been a while since this topic saw the light of day ... here is an article by a retired professor ... it covers all the bases already offered by NewMars members, and perhaps one or two new ones.

It even mentions the Elephant in the Tent, but gives it short shrift.

What seems clear to me is that in the absence of bold leadership, Arizona is well on it's way to becoming a true desert region, once again.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/proposed-ari … 00303.html

AZCentral | The Arizona Republic
A proposed Arizona Water Authority is not enough to save us
Karl Flessa
Fri, April 8, 2022, 9:01 AM
By itself, the proposed Arizona Water Authority is not enough to help us prepare for drier future.
Will Gov. Doug Ducey’s proposed Arizona Water Authority (AWA) save our water future? Can it compensate for the past lack of leadership?
No and no.
The AWA alone can’t face up to our drier future, can’t protect our groundwater, can’t do enough to promote agricultural and urban efficiency, and relies too much on the dream of augmentation.
We need both short-term and long-term solutions for Arizona’s people, farms and nature.
We can't rely on the Colorado or groundwater
We have already seen a significant and unprecedented drop in the Colorado River’s flow in the last 20 years. The Drought Contingency Plan and the 500-plus Plan are short-term fixes. The river’s agreed-upon allocations to the seven Basin states and Mexico may drop by one-third.
What does that mean for Arizona? Trouble.
Our other surface waters cannot make up the difference. Many of Arizona’s rivers and stream have already suffered from overuse and climate change.
Groundwater can’t rescue us: Our current use in not sustainable. We must enforce regulations in our existing Active Management Areas (AMAs) and establish even more. Outside AMAs, groundwater use is poorly monitored and largely unregulated.
Excess groundwater pumping harms streams and springs and causes subsidence cracks. Many rural residents, towns, small ranches and farms can’t afford the expense of ever-deeper wells.
Farms, cities can find innovative ways to save water
Because farms still use about 74% of Arizona’s water, reducing agricultural demand will have the greatest benefit.
Farms and cities can support each other. Ag-urban partnerships can fund innovations to improve agricultural efficiency while transferring some of the water-saving back to the cities. Let’s think beyond the “buy and dry” that happens in other states. Prohibiting water transfers from farms adjacent to the Colorado River will stifle the innovation we need.
Cities and suburbs can save water, too. Up to 70% of Arizona’s residential use happens outdoors for landscaping, parks and pools. We need more incentives for xeriscaping, removing turf grass and for rainwater and stormwater harvesting. Limits on outdoor watering and pool size will save water without harming our quality of life.
Reuse, augmentation aren't silver bullets
Efficiency, reuse and augmentation are all part of how the governor’s proposed Arizona Water Authority would boost the amount of available water.
Innovation for efficiency and reuse costs money. Growth brings new money. To support research and implementation of water-savings practices in both cities and farms, we need an impact fee for new water users.
Increases in efficiency and reuse create a paradox for environmental protection.
For example, current efforts at restoring the Santa Cruz and Salt rivers depend on the release of treated effluent. Yet increased efficiency and reuse could decrease such deliveries.
Nature delivers significant value to Arizona’s residents, visitors and businesses. Therefore, we should set aside a fair share of water to protect our streams and maintain Arizona’s amazing natural environment.
Augmenting our supply with desalinated water from Mexico’s Sea of Cortez is worth a look. However, projected construction costs are too low, costs of future electric power are unknown, Mexico has not agreed to the project, sharing costs with U.S. and Mexican partners means sharing the water, and the projected amounts of water for Arizona are small.
That very first drop of desal water is 10 years – or more – away. And importing water from another basin in the U.S. faces even more difficulties.
Arizona must do more to counter a dry future
Although there may be a few wet years ahead, Arizona’s long-term future is dry. The warming climate is decreasing supply. Scientists have estimated that about 20% of the recent decrease in Colorado River flow is the result of human-caused climate change.
The current megadrought is just the first phase of aridification – the long-term shift to more arid conditions. Only a decrease in greenhouse gas emissions can slow or stop this trend.
No, Arizona can’t solve this problem by itself. But we can do a better job at getting to the solution. The Arizona Corporation Commission should revisit its vote against 100% carbon-free energy by 2050.
Climate change is water change. That’s just one reason why Arizona voters are extremely concerned about climate change.
The governor’s proposed Arizona Water Authority does not do enough to secure our water future.
Karl Flessa, an Arizona resident since 1977, is emeritus professor of geosciences at the University of Arizona. He has been studying the Colorado River since 1992. Reach him at karlflessa@gmail.com.
This article originally appeared on Arizona Republic: Arizona Water Authority alone cannot save us from shortage

(th)

SpaceNut · 2022-04-09 18:48:40

https://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/

Its a team effort and part of that team are the people that are living in Arizona that will not change to making use of less water but continue to be wasteful.
We have had some rain storms in many areas of the US that have caused quite a bit of damage and that water just went into rivers and out to sea when it could have been redirected to places that have less each year.
So how do we make that a reality?

https://water.weather.gov/precip/

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-09 19:32:15

For SpaceNut re #96

Thanks for the links you provided to help with this topic!

Here is a similar report from kansas ... the text goes into some detail explaining how farmers (in particular) are faced with difficult choices.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ogallala-aqu … 31757.html

The Topeka Capital-Journal
Ogallala Aquifer dropped 12+ inches in 2021. Land value could lose billions as water source runs dry.
David Condos
Sat, April 9, 2022, 8:00 AM
An old water well stands next to a center pivot irrigation system in a Morton County field. This southwest corner of Kansas has been experiencing extreme drought since last fall.
HAYS — In increasingly dry western Kansas, underground water makes everything possible. Irrigation for crops. Stock water for cattle. Drinking water for towns.
In all, the Ogallala Aquifer provides 70-80% of water used by Kansans each day.
So how much is all that water worth?
A recent study from Kansas State University says the aquifer under western Kansas increases land values by nearly $4 billion.
But those billions are drying up at an accelerating rate.
Aquifer water levels across western and central Kansas dropped by more than a foot on average this past year. That’s the biggest single-year decrease since 2015, according to the Kansas Geological Survey’s annual report.
And while the aquifer is losing that foot of water, it’s barely being refilled. In most of western Kansas, less than one inch of water seeps underground to recharge the aquifer each year.
The declines were especially dire in southwest Kansas, where average water levels fell by 2.17 feet last year. That’s the region’s biggest drop since 2013, up from a 1.25-foot decline in 2020 and a 0.8-foot decline in 2019.
Parts of western Kansas haven't seen rain since May
Center pivot irrigation systems like this one in Finney County pump water up from the Ogallala aquifer to spray on crops. This part of southwest Kansas experienced some of the state's worst aquifer declines last year as drought pushed farmers to pump more water from underground.
But those accelerating depletion rates didn’t come as a surprise to Brownie Wilson, the survey’s water data manager. Western Kansas is a water-challenged place that gets about half as much precipitation as eastern Kansas in an average year.
Then the drought hit.
“For some of those folks, it hasn’t rained since May,” Wilson said. “That makes it really challenging.”
Even the snowfall from recent blizzards couldn’t make up the precipitation deficit. Most of western and central Kansas remains in severe, extreme or exceptional drought.
That puts the people trying to raise a crop there in a tough spot. So farmers turn to pumping more water from below to irrigate their fields and make up for how dry it is on the surface.
Wilson said 80-90% of the water used in the Ogallala aquifer region goes to irrigation. That averages out to about 2.5 billion gallons a day, pumped up and sprayed on crops.
It can’t go on like that forever.
Estimates show that if pumping trends continue, more than two-thirds of the water under Kansas will be gone within 40 years. In some parts of western Kansas, the aquifer has already depleted so much that it’s basically unusable for irrigation.
Water conservation in Kansas is a complicated issue
This map shows the drought conditions covering Kansas as of March 31, 2022.
So what does all that disappearing water mean in dollars and cents?
K-State agricultural economics professor Nathan Hendricks studied data from actual property sale and rental prices — comparing the prices of irrigated and nonirrigated land — to calculate the aquifer’s worth to western Kansas at $3.8 billion.
And if the decline of the aquifer isn’t drastically slowed, Hendricks said, western Kansas land will collectively lose $34 million in value each year by 2050.
That means property values will drop as acres that once had irrigation lose access to water.
Hendricks said the study isn’t intended to tell landowners what to do. But he hopes it can help them make decisions about their water use for the long term.
“For them to be able to say, ‘OK, what would be the costs of reducing water use today? And what would be the cost of not reducing water use in the future?’” Hendricks said. “There’s a trade-off there.”
For both individual farmers and the region as a whole, it’s a complicated question.
He said sometimes it’s easy to forget that shutting down irrigation from the aquifer would gut land values just like depletion would.
“We can stop irrigating and stop depleting the aquifer, but then you've lost all the value of the aquifer also,” Hendricks said. “The whole value of the aquifer is in using it.”
Hendricks said he’s already seeing some farmers voluntarily reduce the number of acres they’re irrigating in an effort to prolong their section of the aquifer’s life and expects that trend to continue.
‘Devil’s in the details’ for Kansas farmers
Wilson with the groundwater survey said he’s seeing farmers’ mindsets start to slowly shift, too.
He points to successful voluntary water conservation efforts led by farmers, such as the state’s first Local Enhanced Management Area, or LEMA, in northwest Kansas and a similar program recently approved in west-central Kansas.
“In the next 10, 20, 30 years of our lifetime, the biggest impact we can have is to use less water out of that aquifer,” Wilson said. “People are realizing they can still be economically viable and use less water.”
But understanding the problem, he said, isn’t the hard part.
“The solution to the aquifer is simple: you put more water into it or you quit taking so much out,” Wilson said. “But the solutions to get there, that's the challenging part. That's where the devil’s in the details.”
And thus far, finding consensus on broader statewide solutions has been difficult.
Recent legislation proposed in the Kansas House would have created a new cabinet-level department overseeing the state’s water issues and forced aquifer management districts in western and central Kansas to place stricter limits on water usage to curb the depletion rate.
But those sections of the bill were removed during committee discussions, leaving some legislators frustrated with how the agriculture industry’s influence continues to thwart water conservation measures. It appears unlikely that even a slimmed down version of that bill will be passed this year.
But figuring out some way to slow the aquifer’s depletion, Wilson said, isn’t just a critical issue for western Kansas.
While the aquifer drying up might impact western Kansas farmers most directly, the prosperity or decline of the multibillion-dollar agricultural economy that depends on that water will have ripple effects across the state.
“The declines in the western side of the state aren’t going to suddenly affect water flow in the Kansas River for people in Kansas City,” Wilson said. “But the viability of western Kansas is going to have an impact on the economy of Kansas, and that’s gonna affect everybody.”
David Condos covers western Kansas for High Plains Public Radio and the Kansas News Service. You can follow him on Twitter @davidcondos.
This article originally appeared on Topeka Capital-Journal: Western Kansas land value could lose billions as water levels decrease

(th)

Calliban · 2022-04-10 03:52:56

I don't think there are any easy solutions to this problem. Whilst there are numerous technical options for desalination, none of them will produce water very cheaply. And they would all require that water be transported thousands of km in pipelines. Before any such schemes are pursued, the state needs to look carefully at how it can use the resource more efficiently.

tahanson43206 · 2022-04-10 07:56:55

For Calliban re #98

Of all members of the forum who have commented on this topic so far, you are far and away the best qualified to do something about it.

However, it is easy (and perfectly normal) to take the easy way out, as the professor did in the article cited in a recent post. That person is (said to be) a geophysicist, so his expertise necessarily omits any hope whatsoever of adding to the energy capability of the human race. Such a person is doomed to hand wringing because such a person cannot imagine a better outcome.

However, you are in a different league altogether, so it is disappointing to see your pessimism that humans can bring about the kind of environment they might wish to have on Earth.

I opened this topic because I thought there is a parallel between the needs of Earth residents for clean water, and the needs of future Mars residents for the same.

In the case of Mars residents, it is obvious from the outset that energy must be expended to provide enough fresh water for humans to live comfortably, so there is no occasion for anyone to suggest using what little water there is more wisely.

In watching the unfolding of this topic, I note with patience how normal it is for everyone who engages with this topic to start by thinking about how to conserve water, as though there were NO alternative, so we must just adapt to a fate of water poverty.

Of all of us, ** you ** are well aware of the potential of atomic power, and quite often you give us hints of the capability that lurks just over the horizon.

However, your comfort zone appears to be poverty ... poverty of energy, poverty of water, poverty of food, poverty of skills ...

I opened this topic with the expectation atomic power would be able to supply all the clean, fresh water that might be needed by the residents of Phoenix, and by extension, ALL the residents of the American West where water is not provided by nature.

The person I was working with in Phoenix carried the ball quite a way down the field, and much of that work is documented in this topic.

In the end, I suspect the sheer magnitude of the human obstinate nature of the people involved overwhelmed him, and he gave up.

I have not given up, but I ** do ** acknowledge that the inertia of human nature is very nearly beyond solution.

Your recent inquiry into a form of hybrid fusion has reawakened my hope that the human race might (somehow) achieve mastery of atomic power, and slowly lever itself out of the quagmire if chemical energy it has created for itself.

This topic has established that duplicating the existing nuclear reactor in Arizona would provide more than enough power to provide fresh water for the needs of the citizens of Phoenix, while at the same time providing the people of Mexico a fair return (in kind) for their grant of access to see water they control.

I certainly hope your inquiry bears fruit! The low hanging chemical energy fruit is long gone, and the future is bleak if the transition to atomic power is long delayed.

(th)

Calliban · 2022-04-10 09:04:12

TH, I am not saying that desalination cannot be achieved. But it will never be as cheap, by a long shot, as sourcing water from the Colorado river. That water is effectively free, all you pay for is the cost of pipework. When you look at it like that, it is impossible for desalination to compete with natural fresh water sources. Because those sources are free, aside from the infrastructure needed to tap it.

Before investing in pipelines from the Gulf of California and nuclear powered desalination facilities, it really would be wise to look at ways of using water more efficiently, reducing usage and recycling it where possible. If you really cannot, and you need more water, then desalination it must be. But it would be naive to believe that water produced in this way will be as cheap as river water.

Mars is a different situation. There are no rivers there. The only water is dirty ice in permafrost. We are going to pay a lot more there and there is no other way, other than defrosting and desalination.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#76 2022-01-20 18:04:39

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#77 2022-01-20 18:17:26

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#78 2022-01-20 18:42:58

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#79 2022-01-20 19:39:18

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#80 2022-01-21 11:59:22

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#81 2022-01-22 21:19:20

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#82 2022-01-23 14:48:27

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#83 2022-01-27 11:59:12

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#84 2022-01-27 14:34:26

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#85 2022-01-28 12:28:18

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#86 2022-01-29 13:43:39

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#87 2022-02-02 18:08:52

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#88 2022-02-05 21:03:33

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#89 2022-02-09 19:46:27

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#90 2022-02-13 14:48:01

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#91 2022-02-16 13:08:13

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#92 2022-02-17 19:59:58

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#93 2022-03-01 20:30:38

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#94 2022-03-01 21:43:42

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#95 2022-04-09 18:29:47

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#96 2022-04-09 18:48:40

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#97 2022-04-09 19:32:15

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#98 2022-04-10 03:52:56

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#99 2022-04-10 07:56:55

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

#100 2022-04-10 09:04:12

Re: Phoenix Arizona Fresh Water Supply vs Mars City Fresh Water Supply

Board footer