Scouting Mars for Landing Sites

kbd512 · 2021-09-06 18:48:43

No idea if anyone has read this already or not, but:

CONCEPT EVALUATION OF MARS DRILLING AND SAMPLING INSTRUMENT by Matti Anttila

SpaceNut · 2021-09-06 20:03:49

A history of all drilling past to present with a ton of research materials for reference with many simular concepts to work from.

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-06 20:43:11

For kbd512 re #76 .... Many Thanks!

Helsinki University of Technology Laboratory of Space Technology
Espoo, 2004

Update quite a bit later:

3.4.3 Sub-surface Sample Acquisition and Handling System
The ‘Sub-surface Sample Acquisition and Handling System’ (SAHS) is a robotic system which
includes a drill capable of drilling up to 10-metre under the Mars surface as well as sample handling
equipment for extraction, preliminary screening, and distribution of the Mars samples [52]. The
64Planetary sampling
Northern Centre for Advanced Technology (NORCAT) has developed this drill, also called
‘CanaDrill’ [137] that could be used in some future Mars mission to collect samples from below the
Martian surface. The SAHS was especially identified one possible drill for the NASA’s Mars Science
Laboratory (MSL) 2009 mission [134]. To prepare soil and regolith samples for scientific analysis,
this drilling and sampling system would classify them by composition, then polish and even grind

Representatives from NORCAT are listed as advisors for the paper.

I would also like to thank Mr. Dale Boucher (NORCAT) and Mr. Erick Dupuis (Canadian Space
Agency), who kindly introduced me their drilling tests and gave me material to support this thesis.
<snip>
Espoo, March 2005
Matti Anttila

(th)

kbd512 · 2021-09-06 21:23:03

If this is one-shot throw-away stuff, then let's use Aluminum or 304L, because it's cheaper and long term corrosion resistance is irrelevant. If we want multiple drill operations to collect multiple samples over months to years, then 1" OD 0.12" wall thickness, 1.282lbs per foot, seamless 316L stainless steel tubing is our baseline drill pipe. That weighs about 85 pounds for 66 feet of tubing, excluding the couplings, so figure on around 100 pounds or so for ready-to-run drill pipe. There may be some slick way of connecting pipe to exclude couplings, but normal drill operations use tapered threaded couplings, so we should stick with what works. That's about $1,650 worth of tubing at ~$25/foot. 1.25" dry diamond coring bits will cost around $100 each, and we'll need to machine them or have them custom made so they work with our drill string setup. The bits will be very light, perhaps a half pound each at most. We'll need the services of a good machine shop and welder for this. We can practice using our miniature rig in various places in Texas, then send it to Robert in Canada for some cold weather drill ops for good measure. My former employer from Canada works with Raspberry Pi sensors and whatnot in his free time, so I want to ask him if he's willing to help, but he's very busy. We can use Teflon tools to clear cores / clean drill pipe sections. I have some ideas I wanted to try for the drive mechanism (namely, magnetic gearing), but GW can be the judge of that. NASA has some research projects dedicated to magnetic gearing, so it might be good to showcase the technology for the Mars Drill. Beyond that, for approximately the same material cost as 304, I would really like to use Gamma Alloys nano-reinforced Aluminum alloy, which is much harder / more abrasion resistant compared to ordinary Aluminum and would save a lot of weight, in trade for increased machining costs. Rather than completely reinventing the wheel, I also wanted to copy some of the design features I liked from previous Mars Drill attempts, simplifying wherever possible.

If possible, I would really like to deploy the first all-plastic spacecraft chassis, rather than the blocks of Aluminum we've been using for so long:

DESIGN CONSIDERATIONS FOR THE USE OF PLASTIC MATERIALS IN CRYOGENIC ENVIRONMENTS

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-07 07:24:34

For kbd512 re #79

There's a lot packed into that post! Two details may provide a way for someone to find it again quickly:

SearchTerm:Raspberry pi computer skill
SearchTerm:Plastic body for spacecraft proposed

My understanding is that GW Johnson is proposing the drill be stationary, and thus a ** one time ** item.

He is recommending an instrument that can test the soil at the proposed landing site. That instrument should be mobile and separate from the drill.

The two objects can ride to the site in the same lander, but they should be physically separate and independently controlled.

We have seen in recent days a suggestion that one year is not enough time to put all this together.

I am not willing to give up on a launch in 2022 so easily. There appears to be some (human) energy potentially available to catch the 2022 launch, and it we can harness that energy effectively 2022 is achievable.

It seems to me that the ideas of kbd512 can be likened to a Venn Diagram, such that the ideas of GW Johnson are a small bubble inside the larger one of kbd512. The larger bubble would seem (to me at least) a good fit for the 2025 launch window.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-07 07:32:27

Update on Correspondence ....

A resume was received from kbd512 and forwarded to all members of the team.

Please let me know if you do not receive your copy.

***
Just FYI ... I've emailed a couple of folks who live in Texas who have connections which might be helpful.

Both are extremely busy and may not have time even if they want to help. However, I am intent upon meeting the launch date of September 2022 for the small proposal of GW Johnson, and am happy to consider 2024-2025 for the much more ambitious full up drill operation suggested by kbd512.

As a reminder, the proposal of GW Johnson is to put a fixed position drill onto a proposed landing site to look for water, and to put a ground test instrument on the same site to record the characteristics of the soil in order to plan landing pad size for arriving vessels.

I am recommending the two functions be physically separated. One is necessarily NOT mobile, and the other needs to maneuver over the entire landing field to record characteristics of the soil at all the points within the chosen area.

I believe there is NO reason we (humans) cannot achieve the smaller goal by September of 2022, but we will need to put a lot of ourselves into productive motion in order to reach it.

(th)

GW Johnson · 2021-09-07 08:05:33

That's some good feedback. Many thanks.

Told y'all I was too close to the problem. The ball drop backup test: I was thinking I had to measure both the depth and diameter of the impression. It's a sphere. If I measure the depth of the impression, its diameter is calculable from that and the radius of the sphere. Stupid of me. Easier than I thought.

I will start incorporating changes as I get them into draft #5.

GW

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-07 08:45:16

For JW Johnson re #82

This may be getting too far into the weeds, but your post about the ball drop inspired this question ...

I'm assuming your ball drop experiment is to use a magnetic sphere (ie, ball bearing with magnetic properties)

The ball bearings I have on hand (left over from a project) are nicely magnetic.

You could lift the test object over the terrain, drop it, measure it's location after stop, retrieve it and repeat as needed.

If the ball ** is ** magnetic it will (probably) attract magnetic particles that may be present in the regolith, so a cleaning procedure might seem advisable.

***
If you make the surface test instrument separate and mobile, then you can add tracks and maneuver over the entire landing "field" in meter sized steps.

If the surface test instrument is battery powered then it can refresh from solar panels on the drill component.

(th)

GW Johnson · 2021-09-07 11:22:29

Magnetic ball pickup and release is an interesting notion. Might work as long as the ball does not get magnetized itself. Otherwise hematite pebbles are likely to stick to it.

There has to be a work-around.

GW

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-07 13:59:18

For GW Johnson re #84

Thank you for the encouragement! For all/anyone .... please investigate the properties of ball bearings, to see if residual magnetism occurs.

In my (admittedly limited) experiments a short while ago, the ball bearings I have lifted nicely when I hovered a (strong) magnet over them, but I did not check for residual magnetism after the experiment.

However, that said ... is there someone in the group with posting privileges who can comment upon the question of how to clean a ball bearing after it has been dropped into the regolith on Mars? A flow of air might be sufficient, but we (humans) need to have near certainty that whatever method we decide upon will work on Mars. The intention of this undertaking is to show how to do the job right. That will be challenging because the experiments actually performed on Mars (mostly by NASA) may not show/reveal everything needed to increase prospects of success to the 90% range.

If there is a reader not already a member who would like to assist, read Post #2 of Recruiting.

(th)

kbd512 · 2021-09-07 17:43:33

I talked to my friend who teaches mud school and he's interested, but needs more information from us regarding what we're trying to do. He knows people who take core samples and people in wireline. He's a fairly busy man these days, so we need to be respectful of his time. I tried to directly contact someone who takes core samples or did recent development work on the robotic drilling rigs, but didn't get anywhere today. I have a contact I can ask for more names tomorrow, if I remember, but I have UAT to conduct on a piece of software I developed, so I may not have time. I tracked down some books in our online library related to taking core samples, but those are company resources that can't be shared outside the company.

He pretty much skewered my idea of using a high salinity water-based mud, on account of volume control. Even if it never freezes, it'll pose other problems for the equipment. He also intimated that regular oil-base probably wouldn't work, either, and we'd have to use synthetic. He also brought up the fact that a good number of the formulas used in drilling will have to be re-worked to account for the lower gravity on Mars.

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-07 18:35:52

For SpaceNut ... this post is reserved for follow up on the names of two gents who were mentioned in the Dissertation found by kbd512 and reported a few posts back in this topic.

I would also like to thank Mr. Dale Boucher (NORCAT) and Mr. Erick Dupuis (Canadian Space
Agency), who kindly introduced me their drilling tests and gave me material to support this thesis.
<snip>
Espoo, March 2005
Matti Anttila

I started by searching the NewMars Archive for Boucher and Dupuis.

Dupuis did not come up at all. Boucher came up, but it was for Marc Boucher.

Now I'll cast a wider net ...

Google found many citations for Mr. Boucher ... here is a partial list:

About 1,530 results (0.53 seconds)
Dale Boucher - CEO - Deltion Innovations Ltd | LinkedInhttps://ca.linkedin.com › dale-boucher-5429b78b
Sudbury, Ontario, Canada · CEO · Deltion Innovations Ltd
View Dale Boucher's profile on LinkedIn, the world's largest professional community. ... NORCAT. Apr 1995 - Aug 2013 18 years 5 months. Sudbury, Ontario.
Dale Boucher's email & phone | Deltion Innovations's Chief ...https://rocketreach.co › dale-boucher-email_16322206
Dale Boucher's email address d******@norcat.org | Show email & phone number >>>
Dale Boucher of Norcat at the 2013 Canadian Space Commerce ...https://www.youtube.com › watch
Dale Boucher was the director of product design, prototyping and testing at the Northern Centre for Advanced Technology (NORCAT) at the time this video was ...
Deltion aims for the moon - Sudbury Mining Solutions Journalhttps://www.sudburyminingsolutions.com › news › delti...
Nov 25, 2013 — Deltion Innovations Ltd. CEO Dale Boucher wants people to pay close attention ... of the Northern Centre for Advanced Technology (NORCAT).
Dale Boucher - IMDbhttps://www.imdb.com › name
Filmography · Known For. Nova Self - Deltion Innovations Ltd. (2013) · Known For. Science Club Self - NORCAT (2013) ...
NORCAT explains space mining at Science North - Sudburyhttps://www.sudbury.com › local-news › norcat-explain...
Oct 21, 2010 — The rovers used to simulate space missions will be in the Vale Cavern at Science North Oct. 23. Dale Boucher from the Northern Centre for ...
Mining technology has applications for life in outer spacehttps://www.sudbury.com › local-news › mining-technolo...
Jun 13, 2007 — BY HEIDI ULRICHSEN Dale Boucher hopes to see the day when humans ... at Northern Centre for Advanced Technology Inc. (NORCAT), Boucher is ...
NORCAT على تويتر: "Dale Boucher shows Justin ... - Twitterhttps://twitter.com › norcat › status· Translate this page
Dec 24, 2012 — @NORCAT. Empowering our clients, our staff, and our community to drive a culture of productivity, innovation, and life-long learning.
Drilling in Extreme Environments: Penetration and Sampling ...https://books.google.com › books
Yoseph Bar-Cohen, Kris Zacny · 2009 · Science
Dale Boucher NORCAT 1400 Barrydowne Road Sudbury, Ontario, P3A 3V8 Canada Pierre Coste European Space Agency (ESA) European Space Research and Technology ...
Dale Boucher - AI Profile - AMinerhttps://www.aminer.cn › profile › dale-boucher
Dale Boucher, NORCAT Inc, undefined... ... Ronny Theiss , R D Armstrong , Tom Atwell ,Dale Boucher, Sam Benigni. (2012). Bibtex.

The most recent listing seems to be for 2012 ... it is now 2021 ... 9 years have elapsed...

Now I'll look for Mr. Dupuis ...

Per Google ...

Erick Dupuis - Canadian Space Agency - LinkedInhttps://ca.linkedin.com › erick-dupuis-2846b57
Longueuil, Quebec, Canada · Director, Space Exploration Development · Canadian Space Agency | Agence spatiale canadienne
Erick Dupuis · Director, Space Exploration Development at Canadian Space Agency | Agence spatiale canadienne · Experience · Education · Licenses & Certifications.

and ...

Erick Dupuis | IEEE Xplore Author Detailshttps://ieeexplore.ieee.org › author
He is currently the Head of the robotics group within the Space Exploration branch of the Canadian Space Agency, Saint-Hubert, QC. His group is responsible for ...

and ...

Erick Dupuis's research works | Canadian Space Agency ...https://www.researchgate.net › Erick-Dupuis-7995848
Erick Dupuis's 38 research works with 440 citations and 3553 reads, including: Comparative study of aerial platforms for mars exploration.

And finally, again from 2012 ...

2012
[j5] Chi Hay Tong, Timothy D. Barfoot, Erick Dupuis:
Three-dimensional SLAM for mapping planetary work site environments. J. Field Robotics 29(3): 381-412 (2012)
[j4] Joseph Nsasi Bakambu, Chris Langley, Giri Pushpanathan, W. James MacLean, Raja Mukherji, Erick Dupuis:
Field trial results of planetary rover visual motion estimation in Mars analogue terrain. J. Field Robotics 29(3): 413-425 (2012)

It would be helpful if anyone currently able to post on the forum, who knows either of these gents, were to contact either or both of them to see if they are interested in helping. They both may have retired.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-08 06:15:49

For GW Johnson and all ....

A key near term accomplishment would be to secure a Falcon Heavy for launch next September.

The slot could be reserved this far out and assigned to Mars Society for Landing Site probes, with the caveat that another bidder can acquire the slot if Mars Society cannot raise the needed funds and build the lander in time.

Starships might be flying by then, but they are not flying now, so Falcon Heavy seems (to me at least) like a better bet.

(th)

GW Johnson · 2021-09-08 08:20:58

That's why I suggested the path that I did, Zubrin to Musk to JPL. If Elon really wants to do this, a Falcon-Heavy will be made available. It's his outfit. The rocket is listed as being able to send 5-6 tons to Mars. That's several of these probes, complete with fine-adjustment stages that target their specific landing points.

GW

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-08 09:25:06

For GW Johnson re #89

Please keep polishing your document! I think we've identified the "ask" ....

A phone call to reserve a Heavy is a burden but it might be combined with other purposes.

Let's try to have everything ready to go by the latter part of the month.

There are a near-infinite number of ways this initiative can fail.

We ** have ** to assume we (team) have what it takes to negotiate the gauntlet and get to Yes.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-08 09:30:33

If someone has some time and energy to follow up on the lead to personnel who were involved with CanaDrill, please do so!

The two gents identified a post or two ago may both be retired, but (hopefully) still young enough to want to see their vision landed on Mars.

RobertDyck is off on adventures in the Wilds of the Frozen North, or at least North.

(th)

GW Johnson · 2021-09-08 15:19:17

Tom:

You may be right about going to Musk first. The stuff I sent you may help enable that. Should I rewrite the shepherding path to reflect that change?

I've been looking on-line for technical info about Canadrill. It's quite scarce. I did find one blogsite that indicated the prototype RobertDyck saw weighed about 45 kg. That would be well within any limits we might have for a half-ton probe. I have found no dimensions. I did see where the power draw was around 100 W.

I don't know why this thing wouldn't fit a quarter ton probe. Makes sending a slew of them on Falcon-Heavy rather easy, actually.

As for the drop ball test, we just use an alloy that doesn't magnetize for the ball, but with a slick surface. 300-series stainless? It has a little cable up to a reel on the end of the arm. Let it freewheel-fall, then use a motor to wind it back up for the next drop. Smaller and lighter than hydraulics, just a bit cruder test.

This thing gets small enough, one might ride a Falcon-9 to Mars. But I like sending a whole fleet in one launch better.

GW

SpaceNut · 2021-09-08 17:10:17

We do have another reason for ground truth as we will need to build up regolith around a permanent habitat as well as to look at being able to live and grow food underground as well. So the characterizing of the landing site will allow for knowing if underground streams of water are present for an open chamber that is not sealed up until further down the road of insitu use.
We would also want to know that we do not have any voids in a target zone.

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-08 18:24:49

For SpaceNut re #93

Thanks for your continuing support of this topic!

The underground cavity is new (to me at least) but it seems well worth considering. Florida and many other locations in the US (and no doubt elsewhere) are subject to sinkholes caused by movement of water in porous rock. We know very little about the interior of Mars.

I expect that 10 meter drills will be quite popular as exploration extends beyond the first landing site.

The kilometer deep drills envisioned by kbd512 will probably not be "popular" due to their expense, but the ** results ** of their work will surely be appreciated by scientists, engineers and entrepreneurs alike.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-08 19:29:44

The artesian wells are below the bed rock usually with we will in time need to find under ground water with and even here in NH they can be just under 100 ft to get to some value of water flow but when its low flow rates you drill deeper to give a reservoir to draw from.
My own well got water at 60 ft but it was only at a flow rate of 2 gallons a minute so they continued all the way down to 280 ft before stopping.

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-08 21:17:23

For GW Johnson re #92

Today was fully booked here, but I noted Post #92 and have scheduled review of Draft 4 for the alternative path tomorrow.

There may not be a lot of adjustment needed.... perhaps a cover letter would be sufficient ...

Plus! Keep in mind that if you follow the alternative path, you may well discover additional support just waiting to be asked to help.

***
Question ... did you read the PhD thesis by the gent from Helsinki that kbd512 found? It is a significant piece of work, and more importantly, the gent has had 15 years to develop as a graduate ... he may be perfectly matched to the challenge of launch next September.

For SpaceNut ... first ... I admire your optimism, that there might be water below the surface on Mars... most people would predict not, but (to the best of my knowledge) your vision is as good as anyone else's at this point ....

Second ... for your sleuthing skills ....

1) Any chance you can find the author of the PhD thesis that kbd512 found?
2) Any chance you can find connections to the two gents mentioned in the thesis who worked on CanaDrill?

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-08 22:30:22

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/d … 1&type=pdf
Concept study for the Subsurface Sampling System for the Pasteur payload of the ExoMars mission

http://robotics.estec.esa.int/ASTRA/Ast … 2.3a-2.pdf
THE MICRO ROSA2 ACTIVITY – CONCLUSION AND FUTURE PLANS

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/sixth … f/3020.pdf
DEFINING THE TECHNICAL REQUIREMENTS FOR SUBSURFACE MARS DRILLER.

E-mail: matti.anttila@ssf.fi
http://www.space.hut.fi
Business Area Manager – Space & Defence
+358500621791
https://mobile.twitter.com/matti_anttil … 3836531712

https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Sp … otics/MIRO

https://masa.net/space/

SpaceNut · 2021-09-08 23:03:04

https://robotics.estec.esa.int/i-SAIRAS … Dupuis.pdf
CANADIAN SPACE ROBOTICS IN 2016: AN OVERVIEW OF RECENT AND ON-GOING ACTIVITIES
https://spaceq.ca/canada-in-negotiation … -the-moon/

https://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/Default.asp
Head, Robotics, Space Exploration Development for Canadian Space Agency
Erick Dupuis (Canadian Space Agency)
https://ca.linkedin.com/in/erick-dupuis-2846b57
Dr. Erick Dupuis
Canadian Space Agency, Canada, Erick.Dupuis@canada.ca
https://canadianspacesummit2020.sched.c … s.21sf7nld

Erick Dupuis's team
http://www.goc411.ca/en/39969/Erick-Dupuis
Telephone Number 450-926-4782

https://casi.ca/podcasts/9000708
https://casi.ca/event-3841222

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific … is-7995848

https://twitter.com/csa_asc/status/1026830445621792769

https://spacenews.com/canada-developing … -payloads/

SpaceNut · 2021-09-08 23:39:25

Dale Boucher of Norcat at the 2013 Canadian Space Commerce ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdJunw7I_s0

https://deltion.ca/
dboucher@deltion.ca
705-824-1500 x21

dboucher@norcat.org
Phone: (705) 521-8324 x202

https://www.sudburyminingsolutions.com/ … on-1605453

https://ca.linkedin.com/in/dale-boucher-5429b78b

https://www.sudbury.com/local-news/norc … rth-231190

https://books.google.com/books?id=j9guF … T)&f=false
Drilling in Extreme Environments: Penetration and Sampling on Earth and

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/leag2 … oucher.pdf
Prospecting Rovers

https://www.northernontariobusiness.com … ure-369967

https://mineconnect.com/innovation-centre/

https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/6.2012-518
Development of an Intelligent Measure While Drilling System for Planetary Drills

https://www.facebook.com/NORCAT

http://acuriousguy.blogspot.com/2013/09 … -spun.html

http://robotics.estec.esa.int/i-SAIRAS/ … _AM030.pdf

tahanson43206 · 2021-09-09 06:37:38

For SpaceNut re Posts 97, 98 and 99

Thank you ** very ** much for the work you put into compiling the links in these three posts!

I will try to make this collection easy for team members (and others) to find.

Additional suggestions for tags are welcome:

SearchTerm:Human resources for landing Site Lander project
SearchTerm:Resources human
SearchTerm:Lander to drill into Mars
SearchTerm:Lander to test proposed landing site properties
SearchTerm:Drill links to pdf files by Finnish researcher

(th)

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