New Mars Forums

Just looking at the process system through the jaundiced eye of an industrial process chemist, that unit probably weighs in at something around 3 to 5 tons? The size and mass of such a unit is far beyond the early settlement's importation capacity to afford. Any guesses how much it would cost to transport to Mars? The volume is significant as well, since much of it is empty tankage. Just what the early colonists need to import! Not! Whatever system can be fit into the volume of 2 large refrigerators and weighs less than 350 kg is about the limit for an early colony water processing system.

Robert-

Your idea definitely has merit, but a better person to contact would be my old Postdoctoral mentor now at Montana State University, in Bozeman , Montana. He did his Ph.D. under Mel Calvin at University of California, Berkeley, CA., and was a topnotch photosynthesis guy.
He's now a Distinguished Professor of Chemistry and Biochemistry, himself. Send me a personal e-mail message through the forum and I'll give you his name. The guy whose papers you should be reading about incorporation of proteins or cellular organelles into membranes is Wayne L. Hubbel; I had a chance to collaborate with him whilst he too was at UCB. Last I heard, he may have gone on to Rockefeller University in N.Y.C.

Lake Matthew Team-Cole;

You're thinking about technology far beyond what the FirstMars pioneers will be using. The processing equipment you have envisioned will all come from Earth, or by Mars manufacture after the basics are covered. Unfortunately I don't have an autoCAD  program available to me now. I'm trying to come up with a simple solution to a complex problem of running the supply streams and waste streams of the colony. I'm not wishing to get out my drafting stuff and do this all by hand, but if that's what it takes--so be it. I'm still in the conceptualization stage, but what you are thinking is years ahead of where the first few ships filled with long term residents need to be.

After skimming thorough this thread, it seems as though the SAFE-400 reactor is a possible candidate for an early SpaceX Red Dragon mission to Mars?
In my analysis of any construction of a Mars base/colony, one of the first requirements for any progress at all will be availability of ample electric power. The mobility option described above in post #128 seems to be a way of moving this to an operating location. This would not be used in an early Methylox generation protocol, but a pre-positioned power source for the first base.

There are many quotable posts above, but instead of filling up pages with previous comments, I'm simply going to make reference in passing. I've commented several times that a real "chemical engineering" type process flow sheet needs to be developed for all the planning. I'll get started on that sometime this week. We may want to begin a new thread which consolidates much of what is contained in the "Hydroponics" thread, "Materials" thread, "chickens," "swine," etc. since these are not stand alone topics, but interact within the broad spectrum of ideas which have been presented. In reality, there will be process flow charts in different eras of the settlement/colonization time lines. What I believe we should do is start at...The Beginning!

But as Robert has pointed out in his above post, the construction of greenhouses will have a top priority for the initial mostly vegan diet, followed by more substantial structures for handling varieties of husbandry (poultry, livestock, aquaculture, etc.).

I'll begin by filling in my background so everyone understands my "take" on things.
I began my university career at the University of Colorado, Boulder and majoring in Aeronautical Engineering; after about 2 years I began having some family and financial issues which started impacting my academics, and I left school. In that time frame, it meant no Draft deferments, so I spent 3 years in the U.S. Army as a Medic. After discharge, I was fortunate the U.S. Government had just started the Vietnam Era GI bill, which enabled me to return to school. It's difficult to pick up in engineering after a 3+ year layoff, so completed my degree in Chemistry. After a year in the Chemical Industry, I returned to school and completed a Ph.D. in Physical Chemistry at the University of Wyoming, Laramie. My specialty was Photochemistry, and specifically the interaction of light with living systems: Chemistry of Vision and Photosynthesis. I did a 2 year PostDoc at the University of California, Santa Cruz on an NIH Postdoctoral Fellowship through the National Eye Institute. I subsequently spent a year at Stanford as a Research Associate, non teaching faculty standing. I had made a few connections with some other entrepreneurial motivated guys and began a business doing custom organic synthesis of various biochemical compounds, which morphed into a concentration in the field of endocrinology and peptides. A divorce put an end to that venture, but a new girlfriend, also a chemist, and I began a new business which was quite successful in the field of polymer supported organic synthesis and manufacture of the beaded polystyrene supports (Merrifield Resins, and related). My new gal and I married and moved to Wyoming because industrial property was cheap. No state income tax, either. We bought a ranch in 1996 for our planned retirement, and I entered another "educational experience," learning how to irrigate hay meadows, operate the necessary machinery to harvest and bale hay for the herd of cattle we started, rising to ~ 100 cows by 2002. By 2005, the impact of China on U.S. manufacturing caused me to sell our business and become a consultant to the company which purchased it, and devote more time to ranching. By 2007, illness reached out it's ugly hand to my wife, and finally took her in 2010.

I'm fully appreciative of this opportunity to utilize my 55+ years of experience in a combination of chemical manufacturing and agriculture to colonizing Mars. I read Dr. Zubrin's book, The case for Mars, in 2009. I am very motivated to do whatever I can to further what I view as the greatest adventure and undertaking of mankind in the history of the world.

GW-

If you recall, the original Ares I in the defunct Constellation program was relying on a solid propellant first stage? I actually thought it was a good concept, since SRBs are considerably less expensive than a LOX-RP-1 propellant booster; no enormous plumbing systems and turbo-pumps, not to mention the rocket motor itself. I had an online discussion with a friend who recently retired from NASA at the Ames Laboratory in California, and he commented that the cancellation would probably come later in the program anyway, since the manned vehicle had "gained weight" during the design process and the Ares I booster as designed would have been inadequate to place the overweight vehicle in LEO, even with some upgrades to the second stage.

My REAL objection to hydroponics is very pragmatic; it's one thing to GROW the crops. but harvesting takes considerable effort. If one is talking about grains, it takes different pathways for them. Some, such as oats, are first mowed and cured in the sunlight before threshing. Wheat is simply cured on the stalk before threshing. Doing this over hydroponic beds is pretty impractical, regardless of the theoretical yields. Going the hydroponic highway violates my basic principle of KISS!

I don't know how many here have actually worked in agriculture--in the real world. My involvement was strictly as an avocation, since I'm actually an Industrial and Manufacturing Chemist (now retired) professional. When my late wife and I bought a ranch in 1996, it was strictly meant to be fulfillment of a retirement dream, and neither of us realized just what we'd gotten into! Everything I know about agriculture and crop production, livestock management, raising poultry, etc., came from a fortuitous happenstance of having an excellent neighbor. It was  Dr. Cross, DVM, from whom I gained an education. He was a lifetime rancher and a brilliant veterinarian, a member of the State Board of Pharmacy, and on the State Livestock Board. If it involved animal diseases and husbandry, and I had a question--he had the answers. As a result of our friendship and his disability, I wound up attending veterinary conferences at Colorado State University, School of Veterinary Medicine.

Many of Louis' concerns are unfounded, regards chickens and pathogens. If the chickens are hatched from eggs on the trip to Mars, and from eggshells externally treated to remove all traces of Earthly diseases, the only bacterial contamination they would be exposed to would be from the animal feed provided, and exposure to humans. Veterinary medicine has come a loooong way! Trichinosis in swine has been virtually eliminated--even in Iowa "Pig Factories." This has been accomplished through widespread utilization of embryo transplants under extremely selective conditions and to sows certified disease free. I'm proposing we bring only pathogen-free livestock to Mars. The concern of airborne pathogens is based on the presence of pathogens in the first place. Each animal species would have it's own environmental enclosure, and since air recirculation is important--adequate filtration on a micron scale.

Another reason I mention the chickens is the benefit of chickensh*t, which is mostly composed of Uric Acid. Birds do not urinate, and no urea is produced. Their excretion product, Uric Acid, would be very beneficial to gardening and destruction of perchlorates in Martian soils. so--"Mary, Mary, how does your garden grow?" One heckuva lot better with Uric Acid fertilizer on Mars. This would enable even bush crops such as Blueberries, Raspberries, etc. to be grown in Mars soil.

As I mentioned earlier in this discussion, a master flow chart is needed in order to maximize utilization of EVERYTHING!

One of the questions that keeps nagging me: if we are going to Mars "to stay," then should the second Hohmann transfer window expedition  be sending a lot more than a single replacement crew and return ship? The scale of the endeavor needs to expand rapidly such as bringing an entire ship (or ships!) loaded with agricultural essentials; Ammonium Nitrate based fertilizers, especially enriched with Potassium. Also, the basics for constructing the enlarged greenhouse. It's going to take manpower and supplies to get a true base up and running. This could be accomplished with the cargo vessels by using an lower energy flight path of 8 months as opposed to the 6 month "free return" model. Send 3 or 4 cargo ships and start accumulating the supplies. Elon Musk's dreams are marvelous, but a bit fanciful in areas.

Buckwheat is a useful short growing season crop, as is grain sorghum. Many of these crops we've been discussing have more than one part of the plant providing usable product.

Doing the analyses as many here have done, resulted in some screwy models based on isolation from other uses of what would be "waste, or by-products." It makes very little sense to me to model in this manner; a massive flow chart of all agricultural undertakings would serve to illustrate. For example; a set of figures for chicken production was presented, but that's for a "chicken factory," or massive operation. The feed was all listed out as quantities needed for XYZ number of chickens. Grain sorghum was included in that list, as were Corn and Barley. Chicken production on Mars will NOT proceed that way, since the necessary products will be unavailable or in short supply. A lot of "human food" has concomitant "human inedibles." That can go a very long way towards cutting into the list of feeds required for chickens, cows, and swine. Looking at the big picture--flow chart and spreadsheet--will serve to get things a lot more realistically organized.
The chickens are a great species to begin with, since they are capable of two forms of food production: eggs and meat. Building some horticulture around chickens would make a good starting point. I'll spend some time building a flow chart system on a smaller initial scale and post here at a later date.

In order to accomplish a true Mars colony, there will initially need to be an emphasis on bringing in agricultural supplies, embryonic livestock or immature animals in order to save space and weight. One supply ship with skeleton crew to care for baby chicks, piglets, and calves could work, especially if crewed with the colony's agricultural team.

My proposed greenhouse system will undoubtedly be only temporary; I would prefer the construction to be more resistant to the postulated micrometeorite hits, tears, and more suitable for enclosing livestock (?).Long term solution? Build of regolith bricks and polycarbonate windows. That, or glass , locally produced. RobertDyck has proposed a much smaller greenhouse in the Materials thread. I'm approaching this problem as one who has actually produced crops and livestock; anything as small as proposed elsewhere will ultimately fail in the purpose of feeding the anticipated numbers. The smaller versions will undoubtedly be useful in augmentation of the food supplies brought from Earth, but nowhere close to generating sustainability.

Lake Matthew Team-Cole;

That seems to be massive overkill, and designed for deep space use. I would expect that the polymer films would be considerably lighter and thinner. The greenhouses would not need to be at 1 atm. pressure, either. We need a transparent southern exposure, if the greenhouses are optimally situated. I've calculated the area of both the hemi-cylinder and 2 hemispherical walled ends at 4907meters^2., and a heavy polymer construction at 5 kg/ meter^2. Yes, this is pretty heavy: 24,539 kg. I've estimated on the high side for the weight of the structure, and depends on the wall thickness and any Kevlar reinforcements for strips at edges of the joints.

I checked and rechecked the calculation, and have made the appropriate corrections.