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The first choice for Russia and the ESA is to finish ISS. But if we Americans are too petulant about it, they do have other options.
*Why -not- offer ISS up to the highest bidder? Are we being petulant about it?
Are we being petulant?
Depends on why we are finishing ISS and how much gratitude we expect for doing it.
My biggest point is that to remain a grudging ISS partner is worse than "cutting bait" right now.
If ISS needs shuttle as much as GCNRevenger says, then to finish it and then promptly retire orbiter will create more bad blood with the ESA & Japan (IMHO) than just stopping now and making amends.
Look, this is all just talk:
from the original article that started this:
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/08/04/ … /iss.shtml
Russia will resume construction of a new section of the International Space Station (ISS) and will cease being a free “space carrier” for NASA, Aleksandr Aleksandrov, head of the test-flight service of Russia’s Rocket and Space Corporation (RKK) Energiya told ITAR-TASS.
This isn't RSA. This isn't Putin. This is a company guy in one department of RKK. He dosen't make policy.
Energiya mulls the plans of building a new module on the basis of FGB-2, which could be used not only for storing cargos and equipment but also as a place where the crew could work and rest, Aleksandrov noted.
Work and rest? They already have enough room for that for two people. This is for tourists.
FGB-2 was developed as a standby module for the Zarya bloc, the first Russian-built component of the ISS. Aleksandrov would not elaborate on the possible timing of the launch of the module, saying only that “everything will depend on financing”.
Everything depends on getting someone else to pay for the development, and deployment of this new module. They don't have the money for it.
Yup. Its all about money, and Iran. Throw them some dollars and the controversy goes away.
Only to come back when its time to retire orbiter for good.
Why? All they need is a payload stabilization module to attach to the existing ISS module.
Ahhh but stabilization module + payload faring cradle + new docking allignment hardware + ISS module will be pretty heavy... and I think too heavy for Ariane or Proton.
And you must launch the stabilizer with the module, or its too risky to dock with it.
Again, if true, even more reason the ESA will be angry if they do not believe the Americans are being reasonable with the Russians.
And if we Americans will not support ISS long term (in spirit as well as letter) those ESA modules are pretty much worthless already.
Low inclination precludes Russian Soyuz launches, which means Russian space program can't launch tourists and can't stay afloat. They would be slitting their own throat for what?
Who is going to build the stabilization module? ESA? Where will they get the money for that given all their other priorities?
Russia isn't going to cough it up. Plus, Arianne may be capable of launching the modules (technically) but that dosen't change the fact that those modules were designed for Shuttle launch.
Kouru.
France supplies the pad and Russia supplies the R-7s either for Soyuz or Clipper. The Ukranians have no problem partnering up with Boeing to launch Zenit at the equator.
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The first choice for Russia and the ESA is to finish ISS. But if we Americans are too petulant about it, they do have other options.
The remaining ISS lab modules are too heavy to launch on anything but Shuttle or SDV, since they have no guidence at all... Plus, they're all designed to fit American node hatches and use American electric voltages and American coolant lines etc.
If this is true, the ESA will be especially angry if Russian - US diplomacy breaks down.
Unlaunched international modules still need to be launched by the Shuttle. Pretty big friggin hand if you ask me.
Why? All they need is a payload stabilization module to attach to the existing ISS module.
Go to a low inclination orbit and Ariane is plenty big enough to launch an ISS module PLUS another stage for stabilization.
New hardware? Yup, but not a big deal.
Why would Russia start work on their FGB-2? They say its for an additional ISS module. What purpose would that serve?
I might imagine that they could sell it. China comes to mind... Bigelow comes to mind...
They could attach it to ISS and use it as a "commerical" add on for paying tourists- NASA can't complain since it would ostenibly be Russian territory.
Ditching ISS as is means the ESA, Canada and Japan lose a lot of investment, time, and general cooperation in space.
Unlaunched international modules modules can be attached to the new no-NASA ISS.
The game is how much can Moscow demand from Washington for ISS support. And we do not have ALL the cards.
clark you say we have all the cards.
Why would Russia start work on their FGB-2? They say its for an additional ISS module. What purpose would that serve?
A refurbished FGB-2 could be the base module for a new space station built by the ISS partners plus China minus NASA. Who has the cards then?
ISS de-orbits. The shuttle is now entirely worthless as its "fundamentally unsafe" to fly anywhere except ISS and the new station is launched to 22 degrees inclination from Kouru.
Do we really want to go it alone?
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Give me another reason to begin work on FGB-2.
A legalistic & petulant fulfillment of our ISS obligations is worse than just cutting bait today. And opens us up to diplomatic payback.
Ah, but we are open to payback only when we have no cards to play...
After ISS completition, and no Shuttle, we have no cards. We have to ammend the treaty by then in order to ensure we have a ride up there (unless of course we can get a ride on an ESA Soyuz, but who knows).
As long as we are needed to finish the ISS, and as long as we have the SHuttle flying, we have the ability to do what we want, or get up there.
clark, remember yesterday and your link about dropping the requirement that an orbiter always be on deck to "back stop" any orbiter actually flying?
The Russian hardball is already forcing a possible relaxation of CAIB compliance in preference to paying the Russians cash for Soyuz and Proton.
Again, had we been working on SDV full speed these last 18 months, we might not have been open to this leverage.
The diplomatic poke in the eye would be to deny Astronaut transportation. in other words, US astronauts disallowed on Soyuz flights- including return.
Europeans will get caught in the middle of all of this, as this spat is really between Congress and RSA. It's the same chicken dance.
I like this nuance even better than cancelling Progress and Soyuz to ISS.
What? Uncle Sam no pay for ticket? Then no ride.
ESA astronauts can still fly, of course.
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Fulfilling the spirit as well as the letter of our ISS obligations is partly why I have been such an avid supporter of SDV.
A legalistic & petulant fulfillment of our ISS obligations is worse than just cutting bait today. And opens us up to diplomatic payback.
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There are no plans to invade Iraq on my desk (I put them in the credenza this morning).
Bush versus Putin at poker?
Bush has a fist full of American aces yet he is still the guy who traded Sammy Sosa.
Putin is ex-KGB.
Who would you bet on?
Unless we start paying the Russians in 2005 or 2006, ISS is a goner. . .
I don't quite follow. How is ISS a goner if we don't pay the Russians? ESA and Russia both have a vested interest in keeping her afloat. Russia needs the ISS just so it can keep selling Soyuz to rich people. ESA needs it to have a few astronauts to parade around for national spirit and their budget.
ISS can't be completed without the Shuttle, and in a game of chicken, we will win. We won't be working with anyone for the next 10 years on CEV- we only work with them on the ISS- and we have to keep the Shuttle going to finish the ISS. Push to hard, and we have an exscuse to walk from the ISS, retire the Shuttle immedietly, and develop CEV now.
Yes and if Putin wants Bush to lose votes in Florida and Louisiana, he pulls the plug on ISS but only if he can blame Bush. If no more Progress/Soyuz to ISS then all of the return to flight money we have just spent is down the drain.
Why not cancel STS/ISS today? Because the GOP doesn't want to lose Florida electoral votes.
If the Europeans believe its only fair that Russia get cash for pulling America's weight during shuttle down-time then a Russian pull-out for our refusal to resume funding over Iran will cause the same diplomatuc damage as if we just cancelled ISS outright.
Its a big time hardball political move.
Unless we start paying the Russians in 2005 or 2006, ISS is a goner. . .
Unless we just give ISS to the ESA & RSA now rather than later which is the point of the editorial Rxke linked to.
I dunno, but what's the big issue here?
Iran; and
And the role of international cooperation in future US space policy.
Sorry if this kinda hijacks the topic, the FGB-2 isn't part of the current ISS plans right now.
Quick reply - - several months ago I rambled on at length about using FGB-2 (I called it the ISS-Zarya) mated to 1 or 2 Transhabs to build a space hotel to be served by Soyuz and Progress.
I also predicted that a major hotel chain might well pay a few hundred milion dollars for name rights.
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Back on thead. I predict ISS politics will be getting very interesting.
Russia, the ESA and China do not appear willing to let the Americans run the whole show concerning humanity's future in space.
To quote from SpaceNut's link:
Last year, Russian space officials said that a Progress supply ship flight cost about $22 million and a Soyuz crew capsule was slightly more expensive. At least two Soyuz ships and three Progress ships are needed each year to maintain the station and rotate its crews.
$22 million for a Progress launch and $25-$30 million for a Soyuz launch. I'd say that is cheaper than we have been discussing here.
One Proton could boost a lunar injection stage, no?
http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/08/04/ … l]Russians seek cash for ISS delivery and apparently propose a new module not part of original plans.
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/iss_fgb2.html]FGB-2 link - - this thing is not part of current approved ISS plans as far as I can tell.
So we spend a generation killing them, and two generations rebuilding and teaching-
We can finish up the "killing" phase much faster than that.
Problem is the folks we need to kill are in Saudi Arabia and the wealthy suburbs of Egypt.
That's why we need energy independence and that's why GWB wanted to give the American people Saddam's head and make us think 9/11 was thereby revenged.
Saddam was a secularist!! A diabolical evil secularist but a secularist.
The Bush strategery is the exact opposite of what you propose.
Don't forget that non western families tend to have more children. However this can due to wealth or the lack of it.
And if they get out there before us in large numbers we're in trouble, from a West-centered demographic and social standpoint. It's ours to lose for the moment.
Well yes it could be a problem but still doesn't mean that those cultures will dominate.
Lets say the Chinese will engage in a Sjovet, Maoist style of five year plan. Which goals is to send 10.000 Chinese to Mars to start a colony.
They will use forced labour to realize this plan and millions of Chinese will die due to this and also due to fact that all resources of the nations are diverted to this ambitious project.
Have a lottery. Winners get to go to Mars and escape the "one child" policy.
Only workers who exceed production quotas can enter the lottery. IMHO plenty of people will work unpaid overtime without being forced to do so.
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5380736/?GT1=4244]Relevant link?
ISS/STS allows America to defer thinking about such issues and so long as we spend all our space budget on ISS/STS and robots, the Russians, French and Chinese can defer their anxiety about our lead in space.
I guess with the French you mean the ESA??
Well I hate to break it to you then but the Canadians (your close neighbours) are closely working together with the ESA on future projects.
For the record, I am a Kerry supporter and an internationalist. Thus, I am unconcerned about this.
We can use the Napoleon selling the Lousiana territory as an example of what seems to be happening now.
Napoleon sold lousiana as he was concentrating on France and Europe and did not have the vision to see what is possible and he needed the money.It was too far away and he had no use for it now. This sort of is like what is happening now the moon and mars are there but no one has the vision or the willingness to spend the required cash.
As soon as one nation begins to create bases and colonies it will result in a race by other nations and groups to join in.
IMHO this is why the Beltway Boys are not so eager to leave LEO. Starting this race opens Pandora's Box.
ISS/STS allows America to defer thinking about such issues and so long as we spend all our space budget on ISS/STS and robots, the Russians, French and Chinese can defer their anxiety about our lead in space.
If we win the cultural war here on Earth, and make the Chinese into good little Americans, wouldn't we still win?
If you can't win the race, change the rules of the game.
A quote from a spacepolitics comment thread:
My friend Doug's older brother Rob, an Air Force retiree, thinks national security, missile defense, surveillance, and national pride from showing our strength thru force projection and taking space for America is the only worthy thing to be done in space anytime soon, if ever. When we’ve secured space for US dominance, then we can explore, let entrepreneurs take us wherever they can, and worry about getting to Mars. But not before then.
http://www.spacepolitics.com/archives/000263.html]Link - - Since I think Iraq might be "a bridge too far" Heh!
I am not so sure we can accomplish this when the Chinese have nukes and even the dastardly French have 400 H-bombs with MIRV warheads. Those Jerry-Lewis lovers might still nuke us in their rage over Le Big Mac.
"US Confederate" General eh? :;):
Heck, the US Army named a http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-arm … t.htm]tank after him, didn't they?
The French lost in 1763 at the Battle of Quebec and Napoleon sold Jefferson the Lousiana territory which was much bigger than Louisiana.
The Dutch? When did New York (New Amsterdam) switch to the English?
The native Amricans? Smallpox and muskets took care of them, whether justly or not.
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Okay, fair enough. The first colony is not assured of success (Jamestown comes to mind) but you cannot win if you do not play.
And whoever gets a foothold first will disproportionately influence that expansion. Whoever colonizes Mars first sets the mold for spacefaring humanity. That alone should be enough reason not to delay.
I disagree as how many french speakers are in the french region of the the US? How many dutch speakers are a great influence to the US?
Even now spanish is getting more and more popular.
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Being first means nothing as you can also see from the space race, first sattelite (how many actually are russian?), first in space, first on the moon.
First colony, meaning babies.
The wabbit theory of evolutionary conflict.
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To quote US Confederate general Nathan Bedford Forestt (not J.E.B Stuart, my bad):
Git 'dere fust-est wid da' must-est