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#1876 Re: Human missions » The Case Against Mars - Why Mars is not a good target! » 2004-06-18 07:02:46

Frankly the cost of terraforming venus or mars and the time it will take will make it the work of generations.

The problem with making O'neill colonies are that they are tremendous structural, engineering and physical tasks.

We will need a large well trained space construction crew and a way to protect them from radiation and low g hazards. These people need food and a place to stay and the materials to make these colonies.
These items cannot come from Earth

If these items cannot come from earth they must be made elsewhere. The moon using O'neills plan to use mass drivers will provide the materials and the tools.

But food will be a problem and mars is the only place that will allow the agriculture (even if under domes) that can provide.
The averadge rem count on mars is high. But materials can be made that will reduce to a fraction this problem. Or if we find this too much of a problem well we redirect light, mirrors are very easy to make (this will work on the moon too). In fact O'neill was going to use THIS same method to get around some of the problems on his colonies.

O'neills colonies will come but they will be after we have functioning LARGE colonies on the moon and mars. The making of these colonies will give us the trained personel to build in space, the tools to operate in space, and what we lack most of all the experience to operate in space.

#1877 Re: Human missions » The Case Against Mars - Why Mars is not a good target! » 2004-06-17 17:02:26

If you want a good resource that mars could provide here is one, its food.
Mars with its almost terrestial day and atmosphere will be an easier place to use domes than say the moon, and a lot cheaper to operate than say the use of spinning colonies. The materials that plants need are readily available on mars

The markets
1) Earth orbit, It will i think be cheaper to deliver to the higher earth orbits than for it to be launched up thye heavier gravity well of the earth.
2) Asteroid miners, it is true that it will be cheaper and more profitable to mine the asteroids than to get materials from mars. But it is the exact opposite if you need food/medical supplies delivery from mars would be cheaper and easier to facilitate no large O'Neill type colonies solely devoted to growing food, just for providing people with a decent gravity enviroment
3) Luna, there will be food grown on the moon even if under artificial light(but more likely simply using mirrors to focus the light from somewhere else). but it will be hard to do and mars will grow the luxury items that people will want.

Im sorry to say when fusion does come pure deutrium reactors will hopefully be outmoded by ones that use helium3 as there is a lot less waste to deal with and there is a power gain. Initially the main source will be the moon but as soon as is possible the better sources of the gas giants will be used. there delivery by mass driver from mars may be a godsend

#1878 Re: Human missions » Send inmates to mars - like in australia » 2004-06-17 06:38:21

Well to protect the people and fledgling institutions on mars it will be necessity to have created some form of police force.

why
1) As the population increases there will be crime, no state has managed to get rid of it.

2) The Domes may well become the equivalent of the gold rushes ie a bit lawless and rough places and it was to be noted the establishment of Law that civilized the frontiers

3) As stated this police will protect the citizen his rights reduce "Claim" jumping and allow an accused a fair trial. If not there will be a tendency to have the accused take a walk outside without his spacesuit "modern" lynch mob mentality.

4) These police could also act as the equivalent of the coastquard ie a rescue capable authority that would in the case of disaster have the power and resources to act to save life.

Saying that establishing a police force will entail some serious political consideration and treaties. Legal systems are different from country to country and for this police to be effective they must have laws that all must obey or be party too. They must also have there mandate Clearly stated this will reduce some future dictators power grab by trying to turn them into his own army. So this police force will act as an agency to decrease crime and to persue arrest wrongdoers in a wild and dangerous enviroment. An example of a similar type police force is Canadian police of the 19th century the mounties.

#1879 Re: Human missions » Send inmates to mars - like in australia » 2004-06-15 17:23:44

It has to be noted that between the 17th and 19th centuries the cost of prisons was paid by the local authority(read town), And the crime rate was high and the cleanup rate low, Even then the prisons filled up quite quickly.
The legal code at the time used Draconian measures to reduce crime ie hanging a child for stealing a loaf of bread.
Incarceration resulted in overfilled prisons that simply could not cope
One way to solve the problem was to use hulks, these ex royal navy warships where filled with prisoners and became cheap to run reasonably escape proof prisons.

Why is this relevant
1) The prisoner in those times is NOT the type of prisoner we would keep in prison today, murders and serious theft etc resulted in immediate hanging. The prisoners in the hulks where petty criminals people we tend to use probation, small fines for nowadays.
2) The infrastructure to transport the prisoners was allready in place these hulks could simply have a few extra crew added to make themselves ready for sailing.
3) There was no public condemnation of transporting criminals it was considered the soft option.
4) Finally we have had proof in modern days that this way DOES not work. See the french bayeaux experiment ie devils rock,The film papillion. This way does not rehabillitate prisoners we are not the savages of the past we are a modern democratic society we do not dump our problems elsewhere.In the end who decides who gets dumped.

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