New Mars Forums

Why won't Europe follow us? Because they think they are beating us.

A few weeks ago I read Rivkin's new book, European Dream. Perhaps I even commented on it here. Anyway, while it offers uneven reading, Europe may actually be our biggest rival rather than the Islamicists.

And capital punishment is a symbolic issue that divides us from Europe.

A http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/1 … 1]DailyKos take on the Jeremy Rivkin book.

From Salon:

Its the certainty of punishment not the severity of punishmet that deters crime. Enough police and support amongst the community to assure criminals do not get away.

Solve 50% of the murder cases and execute those convicted criminals means low certainty of punishment and high severity of punishment and that will lead to chaos. Intimidation of witnesses etc. . .

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A disturbing poll I read recently said twice as many Americans now believe violence is an appropriate means to get what you want, compared with the same poll 20 years ago.

In my opinion, routine use of the death penalty encourages the belief that violence solves problems. Especially when political leaders trumpet 'get tough" as the solution to crime.

Get tough? No!

Get efficient and make sure criminals get caught.

However our criminal justice system is so very FUBAR (in part due to staggering numbers of drug prosecutions) that there are no easy solutions while "Get Tough!" is an easy soundbite allowing surburbia to vote and then ignore the problems under the false illusion they have done something.

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PS - - Add the incarcerated in the USA and Europe into the unemployment statistics and our employment rate suddenly stops looking all that much better than EU employment figures.

So much for the American economic model being clearly better than the European model for creating jobs.

You miss the point. I have very few if any medical or health worries.

But what if Monsanto or ConAgra come to own patents on ALL the viable seeds?  Or maybe all the seeds resistant to a particular virus that wipes out the other crops?

Wow! Another sci-fi plot. Invent an evil corporation. None extant today are evil, correct? So we invent one for the movie.

They invent a virus that attacks corn and wheat. Then they create a gen-mod variant thats immune. Then the virus accidentally escapes into the world.

Anyone do that story yet?

While I have little sympathy for the anti-genetic modification crowd concerning crop production, this http://www.isb.vt.edu/articles/jul0404.htm]legal case is giving me second thoughts.

Are gene-modified tomatoes, or asp-1 sweet potatoes, or golden rice a form of poison Frankenfood? Not to me, IF proper scientific and safety research is done. However, once these crops are patented, then it appears the agri-business can file lawsuits if these crops are growing on your land.

The controversial case seems to be if your neighbor's farm uses Round-Up resistant grain seeds and some blow onto your land and cross fertilize your seed. Likewise, if you plant a patented seed and later try to switch away, the farmer needs to make sure NONE of the patented seeds grow in subsequent years.

Otherwise, in future years, you can be sued for patent infringement. Frankly, that bothers me a little bit more than the Frankenfood scenarios and perhaps makes the European no-genetic-modification position a little more sensible.

Perhaps a no "patented life form" ban on imports.

Executioners are not soldiers.

Do many criminals "deserve" to be executed? Sure. But that is not the end of the discussion it is only the beginning.

I hope we all agree that the State should not execute those who do not "deserve" to be executed. Thus, we start with a subset of humanity being those who "deserve" execution.

Should we execute everyone who "deserves" it or only some of those who "deserve" it?

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Remember, every Sunday in Church people pray that God NOT give us what we deserve. The essence of Christianity is that people do not get what they deserve, they get more than they deserve. And how can I refuse to show mercy and then ask for mercy myself?

Therefore, we only execute when it is the ONLY option for self preservation. When it is necessary, not because the criminal deserves it.

As of today, except for tourism, there is no business model that has any hope of returning a profit. And tourism is far from assured of giving profits, even as we keep our fingers crossed.

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/oped-04zh.html]Article here:

( 1 & 2 ) ISS and Shuttle.

No way, no how will the orbiter fly enough to finish ISS by 2010. Even if it did, there are no crew transfer vehicels to get folks up and down.

Again, Bell predicts that within a year or two, ISS will be formally abandoned by the US.

( 3 ) Hubble robotic repair?

Ain't going to happen. Too difficult.

Robotic de-orbit? Not necessary.

Killer quote:

( 4 )  JIMO - this is a big one. Attn Josh Cryer & clark

Bell claims the engineers and the scientists have failed to agree on whether JIMO will fly polar or equatorial orbits. Scientists assumed polar as being needed for genuine mapping. Engineers assumed equatorial as being easier and needing less fuel.

Bottom line? JIMO mission architecture may not work without a bigger booster than we possess.

( 5 ) Mars sample return.

Not needed. There are plenty of Mars bits on Earth and if we spent the sample return money on searching for Mars meteorites, we would get far more material at a far lower cost.

(My attitude towards lunar mining mirrors this thinking. Mining landfills will be easier and more profitbale than mining the moon.)

Discuss and enjoy. I merely post this to facilitate discussion.

Try a carrot rather than a stick and perhaps we will get better Iranian cooperation. NASA buys 4 Klipers for $5 billion IF AND ONLY IF Putin's relationship with Iran heads the way we desire.

Kill two birds with one stone.

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.j … 996669]New Scientist

At the SpaceVision 2004 conference, Tumlinson had this great bit about the

Sagan-auts: Space is BIG, really BIG, Billions and Billions and Billiosn big. Look, everyone look how awesome it is.

Smack! But don't you dare touch anything!

and;

von Braun-ians Ve vill conquer space. Ve vill subdue space and you vill appluad us.

I just came back from SpaceVision 2004 at MIT. Lots and lots of good stuff on this exact subject.

The problem remains, however, that some policy wonks cooked up a plan behind closed doors, GWB ran with it and now they are trying to convince the rest of us this is America's plan therefore no debate or dissent allowed. Sitting on the Mars people now only means they (we?) will scream louder in years to come.

Some still seem to say that lunar fuel can reduce the costs of going to Mars, a proposition Zubrin buried 12 feet deep, at least IMHO. (When cornered the lunar people changed the subject and said, "well going to Mars was not defined by the President as having any definite urgency. Its back to the Moon, and on to Mars, well someday TBA. . .)

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Plenty of independent people seemed to agree that if the big aerospace companies are not held tightly in check on what they spend, the whole thing will collapse in a few years. $25 billion for the CEV capsule? Then we just ain't going anywhere.

We were also told DO NOT underestimate the political clout of the STS business as usual people.

To repeat my IMHO - - to kill the orbiter TODAY and transition to EELV may well be a good option. Allowing orbiter to fly until after GWB leaves office does not assure its certain retirement come 2010 and therefore shuttle derived may well be necessary if we intend to get on with the business of exploration and not retire orbiter NOW.

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People seemed split on whether settlement was part of the exploration vision or not.

More than is needed for containment. Less than is sufficient for strangulation. Whats the difference?