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#1826 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-17 21:05:07

Thanks, Cindy, for registering your opinion in favour of the substance of my post.  smile

    Bill, this is bigger than Bush v. Kerry.
    Bill, I'm not a Bush fan.
    Bill, if you want to WIN the war against terrorism, you have to control media who deliberately and malevolently present the Coalition efforts in Iraq in the worst possible light. Even through your Democratic Party 'Blue Haze', even through your undisguised and blinding hatred for President Bush, I'm confident your innate intelligence must surely enable you to see and understand this point.
    Again I say it; we're in Iraq now. You and I are both  ostensibly in agreement that the job needs to be finished and finished well. All I did was to point out something in the behaviour of the press which should concern you as much as it does me.
    Your somewhat emotional attack on me for it leads me to think your stated position and your actual position may in fact be two different things.

    I could be quite wrong but I don't know what else to think, old pal.   ???

Actually Shaun, I see it the other way around.  ???

I feel that I cannot question our strategy without you atacking me as being unpatriotic, or an appeaser of terrorists and that unless I blindly support Bush policy I share responsibility for Hassan's murder.

Its bigger than Bush v Kerry, its also about how Israel gets itself out of its own West Bank nightmare and how we all can extricate ourselves from a cycle of violence before it becomes the USA versus all Islam requiring that we level the entire midle east.

Some on the Right would be quite content to nuke 500 million Muslims and be done with it. Before you question my true motives, state your position on that option.

Ramping up our rage over Maraget Hassan brings us one step closely to saying F' it! Just nuke the lot of them. Is that your secret objective?

= = =

Yes the Arab press is going ballistic over the Marine killing the prisoner. Yes, that is outrageous.

That death is not comparable to Hassan's murder. At worst, the Marine made a mistake. A terrible foolish mistake perhaps, but not murder. Yet are we to be held to the same standard as murderers?

But leave that be. The Arab media is outraged about the Marine shooting the prisoner. Rightly or wringly, they are.

That outrage proves to me we are LOSING the psy-ops battle. We can win every combat operation and lose the war IF we alienate all Muslims. Is that unfair? Yup. Sure is. Buts its the reality and fairness is irrelevant.

I am outraged that no one pays attention to our LOSING the psy-ops battle and instead the Right seeks to ramp up anger at nameless "terrorists" as a reason to bulldoze more of Iraq.

Terror takes two to tango. If we overreact (or if the average Iraqi believes we are overreacting whether we are or not) the terrorist wins.

My solution? More troops and more rebuildig money. Go back in the posts. I called for a trillion dollar budget to rebuild Iraq and 500,000 troops to create stability. Anger won;t stop the next Hassan murder.

Stability will and we haven't the resources on the ground to do that.

The Mosul police defected in masse earlier this week. THAT story is far more important that Hassan's murder or the Marine shooting the prisoner.

Lets talk about WHY the Mosul police defected. That would be a wortywhile conversation.

#1827 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-17 20:09:12

As for Margaret Hassan:  Sure, she'd probably still be alive if we hadn't invaded Iraq.  But does that excuse her slayers?  She did a lot of humanitarian and charity work over there.  She married an Iraqi.  She wasn't an American. 

No gratitude from her murderers.  How sad, in more ways than one. 

--Cindy

I believe she would be alive if we had sent 250,000 - 300,000 soldiers like General Shineski called for; and if Paul Bremer had not FUBAR-ed the first 12 months of the occupation playing economics professor.

But no, Rumsfeld had an ideological point to win.

Her murderers are NOT Iraqis, they are foreigners who very much desire to see Iraq remain in chaos. And we went in too weakly to stop them. Therefore they are very grateful for the opportunity to slaughter this woman.

= = =

Go back and read MY posts from before the invasion. Right here at NewMars. I said whacking Saddam's army would be easy.

Building a safe stable Iraq would be hard. Round #2 would require far more investment of troops and money than GWB and his Administration believed.

Hate to say it, but go into the archives. Folks, I told you so.

= = =

Shaun and Cindy - - I am tired of calls to FIGHT the war on terror. I want to WIN the war on terror.

#1828 Re: Not So Free Chat » Define "freedom" - Words and their meanings matter » 2004-11-17 20:00:46

*After trying to find the best way to phrase this seemingly delicate question, here goes:

How do we maintain sociability/socialism towards other nations while heeding the wisdom of the U.S. Founding Fathers to stay home and mind our own business?  ???

--Cindy

Maybe by truly staying home and actually minding our own business?

*Then won't we be accused of being anti-social and isolationist?  ???

--Cindy

[Recall the South Koreans:  They scream epithets at us, burn our flag, etc...UNTIL North Korea threatens them (again) and then we're the wonderful rich Uncle Sam who should help them.  Everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too...it's not just us].

Actually Korea is forging new stronger ties with Moscow. And a unified democratic Korea almost certainly will be a nuclear power.

And if China and Russia intervene to protect South Korea from North Korean nukes, they will have two new best friends and we will not be one of them.

#1829 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-17 19:53:41

Shaun, who killed Maraget Hassan? Which group? Which sub-group? Is every group that opposes the US presence in Iraq responsible for her death?

Is John Kerry responsible for her death?

A great many Iraqis share a common outrage at her murder yet also strongly desire that American troops leave sooner rather than later.

Outrage at Hassan's murder therefore "stay the Bush course" is a NOT logically mandated conclusion.

Please build bridges rather than seeking to batter your political opponents into singing "Hail, Bush" at risk of being tarred (by you) as a lover of terror.

= = =

And who is sweeping Sudan under the rug? The current US administration.

= = =

Bottom line, al Qaeda wants the US in Iraq and it wants the war to be US vs Islam.

My outrage is at Rumsfeld for not sending enough soldiers to establish security and protect the Margaret Hassans of Iraq.

#1830 Re: Not So Free Chat » Define "freedom" - Words and their meanings matter » 2004-11-17 17:43:51

LO

Read the official US defense policy documents. We seek to be so very powerful that no other nation can influence us. On anything.

Be serious ???
Translated in good current english, that simply means :
"We seek to be so very powerful that we can fold any other nation to our will, any of our wills"  big_smile

See page 14 (of the pdf file):

"We will build a world of justice. . .''

To escape the world of coercion. No more balance of power in world affairs. Perfect justice shall prevail.

Yet who defines "justice" and chooses the guardians?

= = =

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2000 … .html]Full spectrum dominance

google this phrase to verify other elements.

http://www.dtic.mil/jointvision/]JointVisoin 2020

#1831 Re: Not So Free Chat » Define "freedom" - Words and their meanings matter » 2004-11-17 17:34:27

Here is the official document.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.pdf]h … sc/nss.pdf

Please google for yourself to be certain I have not been "trolled" - - I will look for quotes

= = =

Read the opening letter from President Bush in the above document. How we define the word "freedom" becomes rather important.  The meaning of the letter can change 180 degrees depending on how we choose to understand "what freedom is"

#1832 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-17 17:25:22

Wasn't demonstrated in ballots, unless you never read news

That's because American Conservatism has been infiltrated and taken over by a body that is not Conservative at all, but rather has its background in Liberalism and Trotskyism and the American public haven't noticed.

You should look here:
http://www.amconmag.com/]http://www.amconmag.com/

Some of us Yanks have been suspecting as much. . .

#1833 Re: Not So Free Chat » Define "freedom" - Words and their meanings matter » 2004-11-17 17:23:56

*After trying to find the best way to phrase this seemingly delicate question, here goes:

How do we maintain sociability/socialism towards other nations while heeding the wisdom of the U.S. Founding Fathers to stay home and mind our own business?  ???

--Cindy

Maybe by truly staying home and actually minding our own business?

#1834 Re: Not So Free Chat » Define "freedom" - Words and their meanings matter » 2004-11-17 16:25:24

However -- the desire to be an autonomous individual is what fueled my seeking out others (increased sociability), experiences, etc.

A noble motivation, yet ultimately Quixotic as it can never be fully achieved. We are simultaneously "one and many" and a  balance is all that can ever be achieved.

And you cannot prevent others from  "controlling" you unless you acquire the means to control them. Which they will resist.

Read the official US defense policy documents. We seek to be so very powerful that no other nation can influence us. On anything.

#1835 Re: Not So Free Chat » Define "freedom" - Words and their meanings matter » 2004-11-17 16:17:35

Remember this: the Swiss have won the America's Cup and the world's best golfer is black, etc. . .

George W. Bush is not "Right" to anyone who has read history.

He is following a voice from God. In America, followers of Milton Friedman are considered right or conservative.

State supported monopoly is "free enterprise"

= = =

One commentator has described Bush and the neo-cons as "Mao-ist" meaning theory overrules experience and common sense. The dismantling of Iraq's civil service is an example. The textbooks say a small bureaucracy is better so we fire all the Iraqi bureaucrats.

I read a very funny article (sad funny) about how automobile traffic laws in Baghdad are completely screwed up. The civil service has been terminated meaning no automobile registations. Therefore stolen Mercedes and BMWs from all over Europe are sold in Iraq for big profits.

Like I said, American policy in Iraq is "Mao-ist" - - follow the theory not the facts.

= = =

Labels are dangerous in America as my people read far too little history. I read history, enough to know that you and DomPanic (and others) have read far more history than me.

:;):

#1836 Re: Not So Free Chat » Define "freedom" - Words and their meanings matter » 2004-11-17 15:34:05

Maybe we value the pretensions of the individual less and the needs of the community more.

IMHO this is exactly what he is saying.

My more extreme rightist Americans (devotees of Ayn Rand?) will deny that the community deserves any consideration whatsoever.

A position which is so wrong headed as to be laughable, yet is commonplace in my country.

#1837 Re: Not So Free Chat » The New Europe - European Dream » 2004-11-17 15:31:23

Gennaro, surely you must realize that the world revolves around the US of A.  big_smile

We are the center of everything!

= = =

More seriously, I find little to argue with in your coments.

I agree that Europe will not coalesce into a powerful unified entity unless you perceive a threat to your cultural uniqueness coming from the United States.

Therefore, for the US to offer that threat is profoundly foolish, from a selfish US-ian point of view.

#1838 Re: Not So Free Chat » Define "freedom" - Words and their meanings matter » 2004-11-17 15:18:21

Maybe its all an illusion, but lets set that aside for now.

The boundaries of "my self" are marked by the signs that proclaim that the territory beyond belongs to "your self"

Therefore, your boundaries define my boundaries and vice versa.

#1839 Re: Not So Free Chat » Define "freedom" - Words and their meanings matter » 2004-11-17 15:13:36

P.S.:  Whoops...to answer the question:  I define freedom as the ability to live one's life however one chooses, with as little direct and deliberate interference as possible from others.

Yet can " I " even exist without " others " to define who I am?

Describe what or who "Cindy" is without making comparisons to "others" - - IMHO this cannot be done. My very existence depends upon relationships to define who I am.

We seek to be "free" from others yet we cannot exist without others.

#1840 Re: Not So Free Chat » Define "freedom" - Words and their meanings matter » 2004-11-17 15:11:32

Rivkin says Americans cannot conceive of freedom without a strong component of autonomy. The ability to be alone, independent of others.

He also says Europeans are more likely to conceive of freedom as arising from a web of social relationships that allow us to accomplish things we cannot do alone.

*But keep in mind that the European nations are geographically much smaller than the U.S. and they're each others' next-door neighbors.  As we all know, some of them are bordered entirely by other European nations.  To an extent they're "required" to get a long and are more dependent on one another. 

Can't help this analogy and I'm sorry if it offends some, but it reminds me of the Brady Bunch episode where Greg got to have his own private room upstairs and the rest of the siblings had to continue sharing a room (Marcia had to wait another year...)

We're Greg, I guess.  We've got "our own room," and plenty of it.

Geographical circumstances are different, and societal values reflect that IMO.

--Cindy

P.S.:  Whoops...to answer the question:  I define freedom as the ability to live one's life however one chooses, with as little direct and deliberate interference as possible from others.

Cindy, that is pretty much what Rivkin says.

European cities are far more dense than American cities yet the inhabitants seem to get along just fine. Centuries ago, living outside the city walls was just daft.

Great way to get eaten by bears or bandits.

Huddle together for safety like the fish that tries to be in the exact middle of the school.

= = =

Now, might it be possible that GWB's way of talking at 'Yurp simply goes in one ear and out the other because our way of using words and their way of using words is simply different?

#1841 Re: Not So Free Chat » Any poets? - Comments, CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, ideas. » 2004-11-17 14:48:26

That which captivates us sets us free?

If we create the other to create ourselves, isn't that like a tautology?

Dude.

Hey Cobra, your buddy have extra, ahem, plant material?

#1843 Re: Not So Free Chat » Define "freedom" - Words and their meanings matter » 2004-11-17 14:02:13

In "European Dream" one of the stronger points (in an uneven and not always cogent book) is a section on how US-ians and EU-ians might define the word "freedom" in very different ways.

Rivkin says Americans cannot conceive of freedom without a strong component of autonomy. The ability to be alone, independent of others.

He also says Europeans are more likely to conceive of freedom as arising from a web of social relationships that allow us to accomplish things we cannot do alone.

Thoughts?

How would you define freedom?

Emerson, Whitman and to a lesser extent Thoreau may be relevant here.

#1844 Re: Not So Free Chat » Any poets? - Comments, CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, ideas. » 2004-11-17 13:57:20

Words, cruel mistress
This page a cage,
My pen, a chain
That shows no age.

The metal which fashions our cage also fashions the key.

#1845 Re: Not So Free Chat » The New Europe - European Dream » 2004-11-17 13:44:58

hehe...

Indeed

So, to continue to ramble, we will not only have to fight this on our own, we will also provide the neccessarfy bond by which an opposition (the greatest glue ever) is used to consolidate an actual EU identity.

America became America with an enemy. We the other. It's how yopu form an identity.

So in that vein, se le ve. (shrug)

And of course, we cannot change political leadership until this nebulous war is won, in say 80 years. . . ???

#1846 Re: Not So Free Chat » The New Europe - European Dream » 2004-11-17 13:15:20

I would kill for some good mexican food right about now. I-talians don't know squat about it.

I think all sides have it wrong- but then, that's just me.

Let the Euro's think whatever they want. Arrogant-self delusion is a staple of American belief (not to mention French), so what's the big deal?

Again, true.

But be sanguine, clark, in the end the poets always win. They always do.

Mexican? Uh oh, its lunch time!  big_smile

#1847 Re: Not So Free Chat » The New Europe - European Dream » 2004-11-17 13:12:46

Folks, we are fighting a cultural civil war and a civilizational war against Islamo-fascism at the same time. Two front wars are usually a bad idea.

We've been fighting a cultural civil war for decades, one could argue we've been fighting one since the Revolution. We're not a homogenized mass, neither is Europe. There is a cultural war in progress, but isn't confined to America and it isn't US vs. Europe. Americans and Europeans are finding themselves in the same fight, and there are no borders.

True.

Yet for the leaders of the American nation-state to choose sides in that larger cultural war will harm the interest of that nation-state. The American government needs to keep a foot in every camp and not chose sides.

Or better still find ways for the western cultural warriors (gay rights, abortion, women's rights, prayer in school) to co-exist and cooperate on issues like fighting Islamo-fascism.

#1848 Re: Not So Free Chat » The New Europe - European Dream » 2004-11-17 13:09:15

we're closely tied in culture and history, we're in many respects the same people.

*I disagree with this point.  Most of our immigrants are not giving us the same sorts of problems certain European nations in particular are facing, but the fact is many current U.S. immigrants don't come from Europe and so don't look back to Europe as a distant homeland of sorts.  Latinos are the fastest-growing group and they of course look to Mexico, Puerto Rico and Cuba primarily.  Nothing wrong with that, of course; just natural.

But there are changes coming to play in U.S. cultural dynamics.  The gulf between Europe and the U.S. will continue to widen. 

I've lived in an area with a large Latino population for nearly 13 years and they -don't- swoon over the latest import from France or "oohh and aaahh" over English rose patterned tea sets (unlike folks back home).

Again, this is just natural for them; understandable.

--Cindy

::EDIT:: 

READ MY POST AGAIN.

= = =

I didn't say they are winning, I said many in the EU think they are winning. That is why they won't follow our lead.

*Minor communication gap.  I didn't mean to imply YOU said Europe is winning; I was simply referring to the quote you put in the quote box of your 1st post.  Perhaps my response implied I thought it was YOU...sorry.

Cindy, I agree with this.

This is precisely why a Crusade (word choice deliberate) to reform Islam spearheaded by America is so very risky.

We go charging forward, and no one else follows, except Israel, Australia and a very shaken Britain.

= = =

USA and EU are on divergent paths, in no small part based on how our two cultures view God and how humans interact with God.

#1849 Re: Not So Free Chat » The New Europe - European Dream » 2004-11-17 13:00:28

1/6 of America believes Jesus will return in our lifetime.

How many of those people voted for Kerry? Maybe 2 or 3. Not percent, 2 or 3 people.  :;):

That means between 25% and 30% of the Bush electoral base believes in Left Behind.

= = =

Is Europe always right? Of course not.

Is America right on 85% of the issues and the EU on 15%?

Or is it USA 90% and EU 10%?  or

How about 60% and 40%

What do you guys think?

#1850 Re: Not So Free Chat » The New Europe - European Dream » 2004-11-17 12:57:19

More heads in the sand. . .

???

= = =

READ MY POST AGAIN.

= = =

I didn't say they are winning, I said many in the EU think they are winning. That is why they won't follow our lead.

Folks, we are fighting a cultural civil war and a civilizational war against Islamo-fascism at the same time. Two front wars are usually a bad idea.

Maybe the USA and the EU need to be partners with equal respect given to each on calling the shots on how to fight the War on Terror. Or, we can fight more two front wars, and carry the majority of the burden and expense ourselves.

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