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The developing of a rotating space station and lunar manufacturing and mining facilities work together. It depends on the long term approach that is needed to manage the expansion goals for humanity in space.
The moon could be the most important space asset and investment for humanity in the future from building spacecraft components providing raw materials and provide off-earth training for space crews. With low gravitywe could move larger objects with the same energy output and with no atomsphere the components can be designed and launched with no drag or have structural issues with atomsphere developed designs. Final assembly could be in Lunar orbit or ferried back to earth and assemblied here before crewing the vessels.
I think that a well designed plan will include both the rotating space station, zero gravity space platforms and lunar manufacturing and mining facilities.
Over the next 30 years we will need accommodation space for LEO about 100-150 people , servicing several zero-gravity space platforms in earth orbit and the moonbase will accommodate 50-125 people. We are working towards one or more space vessels enroute to Mars with a crew of 5-20 people.
We are not talking about large numbers but we need to rotate the crews ( like in the Military Operations ) from the several space platforms and also the lunar surface. For the health of the crews we need the spinning space station. It will take about 4-8 years to design , map the schedule for construction and create a scale model of the rotating space station, then building a full scale mock version of the station for training and internal design mechanisms.
The Next 4-8 years are about the methodology on the construction of the space station and the manufacturing of the necessary components for the space station to function. Then we move into the assembly phase that might take another 4-8 years, So this means a minimum of 12 years (2019) to a max. of 24 years (2031) would be required to design, test, create, assembly and bring into operation for this rotating space station.
TwinBeam,
People can't stay in space for long periods of time because it effects the body chemistry with long term problems for the crews. We need a stable and gravity assisted space station for people to live, and rest from the extended missions onboard the zero gravity platforms. Currently the private sector are looking into placing their own space platforms in orbit to do research and develop in products / services to their marketplace / industry and client base.
To improve the general industrial use of space the crews need to be posted in space for years not days / weeks/ or months, that is why the rotating space station would provide the benefit and also could lease the accommodation space to these platform users.
This station would provide the permanent gateway for private and governmental interests to the lunar surface open to all, It could also be used to help establish other platforms and spacecraft facilities and also lunar transfer systems to move into development of lunar bases and mining facilities for the surface.
Inclusion - We need this type of space station for the long term development of space for human society and eventually understand gravity thus reduce the need for spinning stations but until then we need these stations for near future in our space expansion.
Martian Republic,
I understand what you are saying, yes it is a large undertaking, but we need to look at large scale developments in a different light to the existing small scall developments we have built before. We need to work on the new principles around the development of these projects :
1. Everything must be recyclable launched from earth into space.
2. Cost Reduction Management MUST be used in every process.
3. High Quality and Reliablility Standards MUST ensure crew safety and security in the space environment.
4. All projects must be multiple mission approached ( including multiple single route missions like earth to moon and back or earth to outer planets and back dropping droids / satellites / probes in different locations.)
We don't use these principles right now, and that is why we use prototypes in 80% of the work in space and that is why the budgets for these projects are high and costly. We are going into space for the future and we need to start creating equipment, robotic systems, and spacecrafts that are developed on assembly type facilities and are the same designs for large series of missions ( 20+ years ) or can be upgraded with limited costs ( modular spacecraft designs )
These are some of the issues that face the issues in building a rotating space station because we don't follow a methodology for large scale space developments and creation of a human society in space across planetary bodies and orbiting space settlements, because we are many different peoples in one world not one human race on one world we haven't got the drive to go into space as one race only a few people across the world want to go into space and fewer want to stay there permanently.
I think NASA as a Holding Agency would be great , but the structure underneath should be grouped into three main categories :
1. Earth-centric : Space Activities and Aeronautics
2. Lunar-centric :Space Activities
3. Outer Space - centric : Space Activities starting with Mars.
4. General Administration of the Agency.
Thsi would streamline the agency and then focus of the functions at in-hand and lines of control to group heads then to the NASA Administrator with a simple executive committee. Each Group would have an Executive committee consisting of the Project heads for their activities under the group activities. and they would function as the group management structure. When you look over the world the US Agencies and Corporations are heavy in the middle and senior executive levels per lower management and operational staff that work at the development end, We need to provide more developers and project resources and less middle management positions.
Martian Republic ,
Yes many issues are involved to create a large scale rotating space station and a stablizing central section that will act as the zero gravity manufacturing facility. and can also provide additional solar panel support structures increasing the power output. We need to provide docking facilities for incoming spacecrafts and also a space hub for transfer vehciles to take personnel to their individual platforms in orbit ( such as Space Island Group).
Information systems that control the environment, rotating , orbital position, and still have all other information, entertainment and communication facilities on an individual basis to every part of the living space and work space.
But the long term approach for space and the expansion of space requires a facility for humans to live and work in space, the first possible micro-colony in orbit. Working towards a Large colony at the L points ( between earth - moon ), To help expand the Earth and Lunar development facilities and the Lunar Bases. Again these expansion are required for the human race to expand out from this planet and continue the advancement of our knowledge and could the expand our horizons.
Martian Republic,
I think we are talking about two different things, I am talking about the development of a earth - resourced rotating space station with components build on earth and launched into orbit.
I am talking about a rotating space station with a diameter of 120+ meters ( over 375 feet ) with storage facilities for excess spacecraft components, fuel and water for upwards of 100+ personnel.
But to build that station we need to develop the ground infrastructure for training personnel, (including the telerobotic teams for construction) to manage all the necessary resources in space and on earth.
We need new technology for building complete spacecraft automation systems and a complete flight simulation software that you can train and develop flight response management. New metal process and alloys will come through the next few years and increase the strength and light weight superstructure of the vehicles under development. The goal is to place humans in space permanently with a larger number of humans going into space month by month and year by year and working towards permanent settlements in orbit and on other planetary bodies.
Yang Liwei Rocket
Want to joyride to Mars and not for a long term approach to humanity in space, get a grip and think that we want to go and stay and rotate crews , not go and leave!!!!!!!
We need to work on an enterprise model for space to start recouping expenditure and increase the uses in space. We are using a scientist model that doesn't care about recouping funds expended but governments and corporates want returns and for corporates they can write-off losses against other profits for private corporations.
In the Mid-1980's they started to develop the ISS Program but it was in the Late 1990's before any components went into space for the commencement of the ISS and it wasn't until early 2000's the first crews moved into the space station.
We need the rotating space station to improve the long term nature of humanity in space. We need to start the modelling and designing of the space station now, to have a complete construction schedule and project roadmap for the complete space station and associated facilities.
Fledi, you can transfer people and supplies via an orbit transfer vehicle from the rotating station to the ISS. Martian Republic, you can reduce the construction costs by using one-way cargo transporters from earth, then disassemble them into components for the space station, it comes down to design for the vehicles and space station.]
We shouldn't see a large rotating space station until 2015-2020 at the same time the opening of the first lunar base but it will add the movement of people into space for commercial, and / or scientific activities. When completed more platforms will be created to increase the activities in low earth orbit including the facilities for the mars exploration vessels.
A rotating Space Station will provide new opportunities for business to expand into space. The people onboard the space stations, construction of the station, movement to the space station and from it, and cargo movement into space and returning from space.
It will be the first steps for permanent human habitation of space in earth space and beyond. The creation of this space station would also allow more people to stay in orbit for extended periods reduce budget costs for personnel in space.
Next, the site of a permanent human settlement in orbit will provide focus for society to strive towards human expansion into space in a more permanent basis. The International Space Station (ISS) could be serviced from the rotating space station and could increase the frequency of use and valued return from the space platform.
Dook
The first use for a rotating space station would be for crew rotation for ISS and other space platforms that other governments and private enterprises could build and deploy.
All maintenance and construction should be done in low to zero gravity because of the added advantages for lifting objects including large components for these vessels. Additional facilities should be deployed around the rotating station providing the industrial sector in orbit thus creating a space town in orbit. With leasing space to other space enterprises and governments the offset costs for the space station and running costs are recouped over a number of years and reducing overall costs to the space community.
Example of Costs
Build cost $ 5000 Million for station, Running costs at $200 Million per year for 200 people ( leased spaces ) + 20% profit margin = $360 Million then over twenty years the cost per person per year would be Build Cost $2 million add the Running costs $ 2 million = total of $ 4 Million per person per year to make profits for space station.
There the Build value returned : $2 Million x 200 x 20 years = $ 8000 Million and Running Costs value per year = $ 2 million x 200 = $ 400 Million. These costs any scientific business could afford it, and also leasing transfer vehicles and other facilities could add value the space station even more. Even if the costs where as high as $ 40 Million per year per person the business community would work with these costs compared with missions of 7 days costing $40 million per person.
Also crew rotation can be more effective from the rotating space station for two or three year missions and thus reducing the need for more and more launches, reducing the risks to crews on the orbiting platforms. Additionally we could develop new technologies in space that could advance our society.
First I like Dook's idea about a spinning space station, but this rotating space station is there for personnel needs and not scientific. With an artifiical gravity based environment the humans could stay in orbit for months or years for terms of duty. Secondly, People could live aboard and travel to low / zero gravity platforms for scientific research or engineering.
Accommodation Space, Governmental Space and Business Space would be required for the various organizations that would work in space on a permanent basis. So you need to develop the structure for human habitation only.
I think that you all have lost the overall reason why we should go into space , go to the moon, go to mars and beyond. I think that Mars direct and the research they are doing are valuable but needs more in terms that the public and entrenpreurs can grab hold, and could use for technology investment as well as a short-term tax write-off. We need to determine new business markets for resources, technology , society or transport that would bring increased value back to business sponsors in a near term or medium term ( 5-25 years ) , this will grow the private sector space industry and bring space into the public sector in everyday terms.
I see the Mars Society similar in thoughts of NASA for Research only and many of your members are pushing that line. What about the Business People for Space, I have been thinking they need this access to information, projects and more.
What about a News Journalist or Historian that could write weekly articles of life out into space ??
We need to have the public involved with the journey of humanity as well as the scientists, engineers, doctors, and other professionals other than general public.
I enjoyed most of the comments I read from my last comment, except Austin Stanley. We need to work towards the long term approach and not keep doing the short unconnected missions like in the past.
The road for progress in this field will be generational and require long term strategies that the western culture hasn't been acustomed too before. For the Private Sector to move into space, we need to develop training centers and new methodologies to help current business adapt like they have started to adapt to the internet but taken 12 years to get there. The same will happen to the space industry as well, it will take longer to training and qualify personnel for space business affairs.
We need to develop large training centers to slimulate all forms of space operations / activities in variety environments this could be done through adding the facilities as part of Universities, associates with various scientific groups and government support. Once you have the business training and knowledge infrastrcuture in place then you move to off-world activities and streamline the risks for various tasks associated to various space based activities. ( where telerobotics can do it , it should be done ) Limits the risk to human lives and decreases the budgetary costs, Also it boosts the development of robotic assistance systems.
These are just two methods that we can get ready for space and not go into space by humans but it changes the fabric of the space industry bringing new participants and 100% private funding on projects that could develop massive benefits.
The cost of the scramjet technologies from NASA is about US$300 Million in funding the Australian Team Highshot funded their scramjet by US$20 million and had success before NASA. We can go into space but we need a larger volume of business entrepreneurs getting into space research and technology activities and find better ways at a lower cost to get into space safely and with a low risk to our lives.
Dook,
Get your eyes checked !!!!!!!!
I didn't say that humans live on Asteroids, I said that we need to advance our computer and information systems to automate these functions to extract the mineral resources required.
I also said that humans should live in human centric environments and we could establish training facilities on earth for this process and permanent facilities that would function as mock outer space bases, conduct research and provide data on material and supply requirements for these bases, while we test the building of a larger base infrastructure for humans in space.
I didn't say that the complex issues for moving humans into space are not risky or dangerous but the explorers have courage to go into space. You try to eliminate the major of risks and dangers but also a chance to have an injury or death but we must learn and move forward for those that gave their lives.
Dook,
I think you live in a little world of your own. I don't I have seen work being down on various technologies that will create this world I have been explaining to you over the next century. Not all of it will be there but the start will be. With larger power systems for space vessels large information systems can be added to these vessels. Again our current computer technologies needs to change for space. we need TB Size computer cores that function as virtual memory stores based on EPROM technologies and not current magnetic drive systems. These need computer systems would add the control of automated systems for construction in earth orbit or on surface or mining facilities attached to asteroids.
You have a limited view on the capacity of the human forsight to but unique solutions for these complex issues in space.
Note on Science Fiction
Science Fiction has been some of the driving force behind the creation of Real Space Science for the 100 years. Alot of the ideas first started as SF comics or stories and eventually became reality. Don't putdown people that watch the Sci-Fi programs because they have a wider understanding of possibilities then you do and the ability to open their minds to new ideas. You are the stupid one that doesn't open his mind to new ideas and thoughts.
Dook,
Its interesting that your comments directed to me, revolved around asteroids. I said that humanity going permanently into space means a move to Moon then Mars then other moons of Jupiter, and Saturn and beyond. The only thing I see the asteroids for are raw materials for our expansion into space and a space station and repair facilities for spacecrafts.
We are currently hear on earth, So the bulk of our technological advancements will be on earth, but when we go into space we will find a new environment with new and complex issues for humanity. Our Residence environments need to be similar to the current earth environment ( even artifical gravity, artiifical sky, real tall trees, animals pets and wild, fields of food, wind machines that circulate airflow to feel at home ) - Colony Size Habitat holding up to 10,000 humans positioned at an Earth L Point.
The second place for creating a human centric environment would be on the planets and Moons. Mars can be terraformed and the Moon could have artifical underground environment created for the lunar personnel.
Our working environments may vary from space stations, space platforms / factories to bases on moon, mars or beyond.
Development of Space means a total rethink of the way we do space activities and the reasons behind our space activities. We still have earth as our centric model for space. When we start to move away from theat centric type model to a open model that pushes us to develop human centric environments
Currently Dook, you have an arguementative attitude against new ideas and thoughts on what we are doing in space and where this will lead the future of humanity. I feel that the fame grabbers that land on a planet are not the real heroes for space, but the real heroes are the one's that will live and colonize them places for humanity.
The Main point is that we must move into Space permanently, to gather more resources and develop new ideas and technology. The Moon is the best place to start developing humanity into space. It gets the public aware of the frequent movement between earth - orbit - and moon showing the permanent human presence in space.
The complex issues around getting their in the shortest time from now ( 2005) to fully operational moon base and resource extraction facility ( 2018-2025 ?). In the mid-21st Century development of fusion power this will give raise to Ion drive and more frequent flights at a low cost base to the moon and L Points around our space.
Yes, this is a huge cost in development and progression of the human race into space but it is required to elevate the human race to the next step on our road of evolution.
I love it when you talk about the what is required to build a viable Mars Colony and Colonization of Mars. It comes down to infrastructure from all L Points, Earth Orbit and the Moon. To expand the human race into permanent living in space we need a permanent home that provides earth gravity or close to earth type gravity to make sure our bodies are not effected much. Second, the volume of resource movement must increase to match the movement of humans to mars and other space platforms, stations, and bases throughout our solar system.
Its not the fact of builidng space stations, space habitats, space transports both cargo or human or provide the necessary resources for these colonies but the development of a complete infrastructure from physical, governmental, economic and social structures that would properly prespare humanity into space.
You will require a new approach in creating a stable interplanetary economy to build a successful Mars Colony. When developing the moon or near-earth asteroids or the Asteroid belt past Mars or the outer planets and moons you will need an overall strategy and technology to meet these challenges.
By using all L Points for the interplanetary developments they can increase the movement of personnel, equipment, vessels and material resources into space and from space. Also by using the L Points we can increase the volume of people living and working in space and increasing the economies of scale to a sustainable level. That will push our technology forward.
What is CEV ---->
1. Crew Emergency Vehicle
2. Crew Evaulation Vehicle
3. Crew Explorer Vehicle
4. Crew Exploration Vehicle
5. Crew Exploitation Vehicle
6. Crew Elevation Vehicle
and more and more
All are different meanings and different uses.
We are talking about two different segments of space flight. One section is Earth to Orbit and the other section is Orbit and beyond. I was talking about the later ( Orbit and beyond).
Spacenut,
That's what computers / information systems are for !!!! and provide updating information throughout the mission. Secondly, by having a pre-determined components the missions can be assigned quickly and efficiently, by reducing the cost in manpower on earth, and in space.
Robs,
Yes 50 years because even with advances in systems they are modular and backwards compatible to integrate across the timeframe and provide a stable space platform for exploration and settlement across our star system.
Michael,
Its refreshing to see a person that finally come around to the thinking that the CEV vehicle must be designed on a multi-platform based craft. The craft must be developed through a central module and specific components for different mission profiles. For example different engine assemblies for short or long duration missions including roundtrip or one-way missions.
The Main issue is the overall strategy of NASA must be to have a long term generational strategy for 50+ year evolution of space vehicle design and development. Then revaluate the designs and development around the 2055 year mark for the next 50 years. The first fifty years are based on one modular designed platform to expand the understanding of space and the settlement of our "local street" of space bodies - Moon, Mars, Asteroids, Jupiter's Moons and Saturn's Moons.
The second 50 years will have different specifications for the space vehicle to meet including speed, endurance, crew and passenger size and technology improvements just to name a few changes. We need to make sure that the CEV reflects the needs of all space uses in the near term out to 2055.
Before you decide 'where" to land we need a realistic model of the planetary surface and climate conditions of the land and they inputed into a navigation system for the flight to mars and surface resources for sustainability.
Then we can discuss the best location to land.