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#126 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-16 11:26:30
Here's a quick sketch of one possible Mars political structure for the early days. Use as a starting point? Fill in details?
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-saq_zaVi06A/ … sGovt1.jpg
John: I proposed that chapters of the Mars Society would be eligible to obtain Mars Settlement Permits from the Mars Secretariat. I am trying to encourage would-be Martians to form face-to-face “moral communities”; i.e., groups of Mars Society members who get together occasionally or regularly to discuss “right” and “wrong” and who thereby develop a consensus about which direction constitutes “a way forward”.
I therefore propose that “Nomads” be changed to “Mars Society Chapters” and that “Mars Consortium” be changed to “Mars Society Chapters Consortium”. The Consortium could be a business entity that raises settlement construction moneys on behalf of Chapters that have obtained Mars Settlement Permits.
Let’s put a solid business foundation under the Mars migration movement. First: Persuade a sovereign to appoint an officer who has the authority to issue settlement permits. Second: Use those permits to raise settlement funding in capital markets (e.g., the New York Stock Exchange). Third: Build a prototype settlement somewhere on Earth so that proto-Martian settlers will be prepared to succeed once they arrive on Mars.
#127 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-16 10:58:34
Tom Kalbfus wrote:No they would just take it without consulting us.
Nobody's disputing that the US is the leader in space exploration and could do what it wanted. But I don't think even your own government would agree with snatching Mars, claiming sovereignty over it, without consulting rest-of-world.
The US stands to gain hugely anyway from its investments in space, just by going and building. You're welcome to plan your USA-Mars concepts but don't expect the rest of us to join in. Global cooperation looks like a saner option.
Tom: You can push and push and push for a United States of America-style government on Mars but that kind of proposal is premature by at least 100 years. Let the Martians decide what kind of global/national government they want to have. We should concentrate our efforts on "Mapping a way forward" (the name of this thread) that will help the would-be Martians of today to start building settlements soon.
Trying to plan a United States of Mars at this point is just a waste of our time.
#128 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-16 10:28:18
I can't imagine giving Mars to Andorra or Luxemburg, tiny specs of nations that they are. I don't think the governments of tiny little countries are the best examples of how to govern an entire planet.
In my proposal that the Principality of Andorra issue Mars Settlement Permits I did not include the requirement that such permits prescribe that each settlement shall have a democratic or a totalitarian or a republican form of government, or that settlements organize states or nations. These matters are appropriately left to the discretion of the Martians.
#129 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-16 09:50:35
So you agree that China should be given Mars, if they become the leaders in space?
Numerous nations have made overlapping claims of territorial sovereignty to portions of Antarctica. I therefore believe that a nation that is not a party to the Outer Space Treaty could claim a portion of Mars and could then issue Mars settlement permits.
Would the permit holders be able to raise money in international capital markets in order to pay for the construction of Mars settlements? For example, could they qualify to sell shares on the New York Stock Exchange?
#130 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-15 13:08:17
You want to model the Mars government after the ineffective UN with its ineffective Secretary-General, wo unlike the secretary in the picture, can't even take dictation or fetch some coffee.
No. "Secretariat" is a standard term for an administrative office. Please see
#131 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-15 11:23:46
[Draft] Claim of Territorial Sovereignty and Establishment of the Government of Mars
The Mars Society is an association of persons who advocate the exploration and settlement of the planet Mars. Members of the Mars Society have requested that the Principality of Andorra (1) claim sovereignty over a portion of Mars and (2) adopt a legal system that facilitates the establishment of permanent settlements on Mars. In response to these requests, the Principality of Andorra does hereby claim sovereignty over the portion of Mars that is bounded on its western side by the line of longitude at -135 degrees west longitude, and on its eastern side by the line of longitude at -45 degrees west longitude, and on its northern side by the line of latitude at 45 degrees north latitude, and on its southern side by the line of latitude at -45 degrees south latitude.
The Principality of Andorra does hereby establish a subdivision named Government of Mars. The Government of Mars shall have an office known as the Mars Secretariat. The chief administrative officer of the Mars Secretariat shall be known as the Secretary of State of the Government of Mars. The Mars Society may nominate 3 to 5 people who are willing and able to serve as the Secretary. The Secretary shall be appointed by the Principality of Andorra.
The Secretary may issue “Mars Settlement Permits”. Each chapter of the Mars Society is eligible to apply for one Mars Settlement Permit.
After 10 settlements have been established in the portion of Mars claimed by the Principality of Andorra, 10 or more settlements may jointly declare that they are an independent nation. They may claim sovereignty over the portion of Mars described above and over other portions of Mars if the inhabitants, if any, of those other portions agree to be included in the new nation.
#132 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-14 23:14:12
This is a quick schematic I came up with... Apologies if this plan seems a bit baroque.
You obviously put a lot of effort into your “schematic”. Your schematic is “a bit baroque” if by baroque you mean “characterized by grotesqueness, extravagance, complexity, or flamboyance”.
What you are proposing goes very far beyond what is required to support the establishment of the first dozen settlements on Mars. Those settlers are not going to want to pay 50 percent of their income to support hundreds of government officials, who spend their days in lavish offices in a Capital District that is thousands of miles away, and who write millions of tons of regulations and more regulations and more regulations, etc., etc., etc. If that is the way Mars will be governed then I will not want to emigrate to Mars.
A settlement might be governed by a Town Council composed of 5 or 7 or 9 members. The Council might elect a Chair, a chief executive officer, a records clerk, and a chief financial officer. The town’s laws might provide for the public election of a sheriff, a few judges, an attorney, and a grand jury. At the point when Mars becomes capable of governing itself, the town could elect a Member of Parliament (MP), who would represent the people of the town in the Parliament of Mars. Each settlement might be responsible for paying the expenses of its MP. The Parliament might be given the power to levy import taxes and to spend such taxes to pay for the operation of the national government.
I am not proposing that these matters be prescribed by a Charter of the Government of Mars. The structure of a settlement’s government should be decided by the settlers. And the structure of the national government should be decided by the Martians.
#133 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-14 21:20:52
Better yet, maybe we can come up with a draft outline for a Martian government in this very thread, pulling together the most workable ideas - looks like we won't agree on everything easily. Then work out what to do with that draft.
APM (Association Planète Mars) is the French branch of the Mars Society.
http://planete-mars.com/english-content/
I previously suggested that we side-step the Outer Space Treaty by asking the Republic of Malta to establish a Mars Secretariat that could then issue “Mars Settlement Permits”. Since Malta is in the Mediterranean Sea it’s a difficult place to get to and from. An alternative is Andorra, a small country between France and Spain. The French “branch” of the Mars Society could contact and negotiate with Andorra.
The Mars Society might offer to pay the Principality of Andorra to issue a “Charter of the Government of Mars” (including a provision for a “Mars Secretariat”) and to appoint the chief administrative officer of the Secretariat. That officer might be given the title “Secretary of State of the Government of Mars”. The Secretary could issue Mars Settlement Permits in accordance with the terms of the Charter. The Secretary might also be given the power to proclaim the boundaries of national parks on Mars. Nearby settlements might be granted permission to operate concessions and tours in the parks.
#134 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-14 19:57:24
I would think when the population of Mars is less than a million, or there are less than a few hundred settlements, that the Mars Secretariat could still be a small, weak body and each individual will have opportunity to contribute to decision making. By that time they will be able to decide what to do - another layer of government, or something else, like direct democracy or whatever.
My vision of Mars is of a planet covered with towns like “Mayberry”.
“Mayberry is a fictitious community that was the setting for two popular American television sitcoms, The Andy Griffith Show and Mayberry R.F.D. Mayberry was also the setting for a 1986 reunion television movie titled Return to Mayberry. Mayberry was set in North Carolina and is said to be based on Andy Griffith's hometown of Mount Airy, North Carolina. Mount Airy is also known as Mayberry and this town is known by both names to the people who reside there.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayberry
Mayberry was a small town surrounded by people who were intimately connected to the ecosystem that supported their existence. Crime and corruption were comparatively low.
I hope that there will not be more than a few large cities on Mars. And I hope that the capital city of Mars will be a sleepy, quite little town that hosts sessions of the Parliament of Mars once a year, and that those sessions only last two or three months.
Many years ago, I was the Secretary-Treasurer of a nonprofit corporation. I lived in Sacramento County, California. I wrote and lobbied three bills through the California Legislature. I eventually resigned because of the extremely toxic social atmosphere that prevailed in the State Capitol. Corruption from wall to wall! So please do not think that state government is something that will protect people from corruption and government abuse.
I am highly opposed to dividing Mars into states. Discussions about creating such divisions should be left to the Martians of the next century.
#135 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-14 15:22:54
I wouldn't necessarily grant a township (6 mile x 6 mile square). Most cities in Canada and the US have irregular boundaries.
I am conceiving of a settlement as a small town that covers about 4 sections (4 square miles) and, in the surrounding 140 sections, dozens of family farms and ranches that produce food for the farmers and ranchers and for the people who live in the town. So, in terms of land use, a settlement would be predominantly rural.
Where the four “town” sections share a corner, that is where the “Initial Point” of the settlement’s Base and Meridian would be located.
#136 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-14 11:45:33
Perhaps, I still think there should be some Federal overarching surveying plan to prevent conflicts between different municipalities if/when they expand and meet each other, especially if for example one municipality uses metric and another uses imperial for land measurement.
The "Settlement Permit" issued by the Mars Secretariat should specify the maximum size of the settlement. For example, the settlement boundary could include four townships (36 square miles in each township; 144 sq. miles in total). The Secretariat should not allow settlements to expand if the expansion would bring the settlement's boundary into contact with another settlement. There should be a buffer zone (an ecological preserve) between settlements.
#137 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-14 10:40:28
7. Settlement Policy? What's that? Governing who gets to settle where? Good point. So a new embryonic colony is planned on Earth, and early on it applies for a plot of land with the Mars gov, who process the application and say 'yes you can land there and this is your colony area' with coordinates, or 'no, sorry, that's too close to Pavonis Mons' or something, or even 'your equipment and safety standards don't reach our minimum standards - you have to redesign and reapply'.
The chief administrative officer of the "Mars Secretariat" might make it known that he or she will not issue settlement permits for locations that are likely to be below sea level (when terraforming processes start the formation of seas). After the Parliament of Mars becomes operational, the Parliament could enact laws that regulate the location of new settlements, based of the planned location of seas.
#138 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-14 10:10:03
Scott Beach wrote:An important part of establishing good title is a viable land survey system. Each municipal government on Mars should be authorized to establish its own Base and Meridian, marked by a modest monument inscribed, for example, “Sagan City Meridian, Initial Point”.
I'm going to have to partially agree/disagree with you there. I believe there should be a uniform planet-wide survey system, to prevent clashes of different municipal systems in rural areas if/when they eventually get populated,especially if different unit systems are involved. That being said, I do respect the right of municipalities to set aside their own base-line and meridians, and to employ their own surveyors, within that system.
Terrans established a “prime meridian” of Mars in about 1830.
https://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/mgs/msss/came … ses/airy0/
However, Martians should have the opportunity to establish the prime meridian of their planet. I believe that the Martian parliament should establish a “Royal Observatory” in the capital city of Mars and vest in the Observatory the power to establish the precise location of the official “Prime Meridian of Mars”.
If a global positioning system comes into operation for Mars then the local Base and Meridian established by each settlement could be precisely located in relation to the official Prime Meridian of Mars. But parcel maps and land titles should still be drafted with reference to the local Base and Meridian, as established by municipal law. The central (planetary) government does not need to meddle in the local business of licensing land surveyors and establishing parcel boundaries.
#139 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-13 13:54:57
To be independent economically and politically surely includes not building your colony on some other nation's land but being sovereign. Only way to do that on Earth might be ... maybe ... an ocean-going city.
How about on a currently uninhabited island?
The Republic of Malta is not a party to the Outer Space Treaty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Oute … arties.svg
So we might be able to side-step the Outer Space Treaty by persuading the Republic of Malta to claim its "fair share" of Mars and to issue “Mars Settlement Permits”. Some number of ProtoMartians might then undertake to build a prototype Martian settlement in Malta, perhaps on the island of Comino (Kemmuna) or Cominotto (Kemmunett). The “Blue Lagoon” between those two islands is a popular tourist destination and there would probably be lots of tourists who would pay a fee to visit a prototype Martian settlement.
#140 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » A Constitution of Mars; Scientocracy » 2017-03-13 08:32:21
I included in my “Charter of the Government of Mars” the idea of a “Mars Secretariat” (per Bruhns and Haqq-Misra). However, I did not specify how the “chief administrative officer” of the Mars Secretariat would be chosen. In that regard, I propose the following:
The first chief administrative officer of the Mars Secretariat (the “Secretary of State of the Government of Mars”) might be elected by the United Nations General Assembly immediately after the General Assembly adopts the Charter of the Government of Mars.
Three to six months prior to the scheduled date of that vote, the General Assembly might invite the Mars Society to nominate three to five persons who are qualified and willing to serve as the Secretary. The General Assembly might elect one of those persons.
After the Parliament of Mars becomes functional (i.e., after the establishment of 10 permanent settlements on Mars), the Secretary would be elected by the Parliament. The Secretary would continue to issue permits to establish new settlements but would be doing so in accordance with laws enacted by the Parliament.
Eventually, the General Assembly would repeal the Charter of the Government of Mars and invite that Government to become a full, voting member of the United Nations.
Mars would, in essence, become a Trust Territory of the United Nations with the expectation that Mars would eventually become a mature, self-governing nation and a member of the U.N.
Please feel free to propose alternative processes.
#141 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » A Constitution of Mars; Scientocracy » 2017-03-13 07:13:36
Scientocracy sounds too much like Scientology! The Soviet Union was originally supposed to be a Scientocracy, the problem is, they supposed scientists that would be running the place would not be objective in their conclusions about what works, because the power we would give them would corrupt them, and they would always bias towards conclusions that keep themselves in power.
Scientology is a religion and a scam. Yes, Soviet "scientists" perverted their science to acquire money and power. Fortunately, their silly lies have self-destructed.
I regard Comunidad de los Horcones (Community of the Bifurcated Wooden Pillars) as a scientocracy. They tell their children that the behavior of an organism is a function of its physiology, its history of reinforcement and punishment, and its current environment. Then children can go into the "Behaviorology Laboratory" and put a small critter into an Operant Conditioning Chamber (a "Skinner box"). They apply behavior shaping procedures to the critter and see that the procedures work. They learn to apply similar procedures to themselves (behavioral engineering) and they participate in politically coordinated efforts to maintain or modify the culture of their community (cultural engineering). They are not asked to believe the theory and practices of behaviorology. They learn for themselves that the theory is true and that the practices work.
Behaviorology is a science, not a religion. No one is asked to believe in behaviorology on the faith that it is true. They believe in behaviorology because they have proven it to be true in their Behaviorology Laboratory and in their Cultural Laboratory (i.e., their community).
#142 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-12 21:13:19
“…should we try bold new experiments in civilization to find better ideas?”
Jacob Haqq-Misra, “The Transformative Value of Liberating Mars”. New Space, May 2016, 4(2): 64-67. https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1404/1404.2315.pdf
I am in favor of building “experimental communities” but I think that such experiments should be conducted on Earth, with successful communities being transplanted to Mars, together with all of the equipment and supplies that the new Martians will need to succeed.
#143 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-12 18:29:35
Thanks. Yes, so the Bruhns and Haqq-Misra paper could serve as a structure for reconciling disputes and setting limits on one colony's land-grabbing.
When people apply to the “Mars Secretariat” for a permit to establish a municipal government their application should specify (1) the approximate location of the “Initial Point” of the Base and Meridian that the applicants plan to establish and (2) the proposed boundary of the municipality, based on the planned Base and Meridian. With these application requirements, the Secretary of State of the Government of Mars could prevent efforts to engage in “land-grabbing”.
#144 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-12 18:07:04
I wanted to welcome both JohnX and Scott Beach to NewMars... This is definitely a topic for the far off future whether its just a decade away or a century, we all know that we will need rules of law in place that those on mars will need to follow as what they do may impact others as well.
Thanks for the “welcome” SpaceNut.
I believe that it is very important to establish some sort of governance system for Mars and to do so in the near future. Entrepreneurs and others have to know that they can obtain good title to land and resources on Mars.
An important part of establishing good title is a viable land survey system. Each municipal government on Mars should be authorized to establish its own Base and Meridian, marked by a modest monument inscribed, for example, “Sagan City Meridian, Initial Point”. Coordinates based on a Base and Meridian survey system make it possible to write deeds that precisely describe a parcel of land. For example, long ago I owned a farm described as the northern half of Section 18, Township 10 North, Range 12 East, Mount Diablo Base and Meridian.
The boundary of a municipal government could also be precisely described by a Base and Meridian survey system.
#145 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-12 17:01:47
Terraformer wrote:louis,
Exile to Earth might work for a bit, until Terrans realise they can exile people to Mars in response. Turnabout is fair play. Why should Terra have to deal with Martian criminals?
Good point. Exiled criminals from Earth would mess things up on Mars for sure.
A municipal government authorized in accordance with the "Charter of the Government of Mars" (see above) might give each person in the municipality a "Resident Permit" that allows the person to continue to reside within the municipal boundary. The permit could be renewed each year. However, if a person is convicted of a serious felony then that person might be required to return to his home country on Earth. A different system would probably prevail for people born on Mars.
#146 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Mapping a way forward » 2017-03-12 11:58:06
Sara Bruhns and Jacob Haqq-Misra at the Blue Marble Space Institute wrote a paper as a framework for Mars colonies to share the planet and settle disputes. This is a good place to start in my humble opinion.
Title: A Pragmatic Approach to Sovereignty on Mars
Get the pdf at: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1511/1511.05615.pdf
Bruhns and Haqq-Misra proposed “the formation of a Mars Secretariat as an administrative body with limited power to facilitate communication among parties”. A “Mars Secretariat” might be established as a branch of the Government of Mars, as provided in a “Charter of the Government of Mars”.
Charter of the Government of Mars
Chapter I: This Charter shall become effective when it has been adopted by a vote of two thirds of the members of the United Nations General Assembly.
Chapter II: Mars Secretariat.
The Government of Mars shall have a branch named the “Mars Secretariat”.
The Government of Mars shall have an officer known as the “Secretary of State of the Government of Mars”. The Secretary shall be the chief administrative officer of the Government and shall supervise the operation of the Mars Secretariat. The Secretary shall bring to the attention of the United Nations Security Council any matter which in his or her opinion may threaten the maintenance of international peace and security.
The Secretary may authorize the establishment of municipal governments on Mars. The laws enacted by a municipal government are subordinate to this Charter and to laws enacted by the Government of Mars. A municipal law that conflicts with this Charter or with laws enacted by the Government of Mars is void to the extent of the conflict.
Chapter III: When 10 or more municipal governments have been established, the Secretary may call a meeting of a Parliament of Mars. The Parliament may, in the name of the Government of Mars, enact laws that are consistent with and subordinate to this Charter.
#147 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » A Constitution of Mars; Scientocracy » 2017-03-10 20:19:01
The Outer Space Treaty is a quaint idea that space faring countries pay lip service to.
You have asserted that “The Outer Space Treaty a quaint idea” as though that treaty is totally ignored. However, you should recognize that there are not thousands of nuclear warheads in Earth orbit just 100 miles above your head. Such warheads, if they existed, could strike any target under their orbital path within 2 minutes.
The Outer Space Treaty is being honored now. Look up toward the zenith and think about that.
The Outer Space Treaty has played an important role in preventing the incineration of terrestrial civilizations.
#148 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Countries Without Armed Forces » 2017-03-08 18:56:37
Scott Beach wrote:I want the Martian regime to be very accommodating to Hutterites.
Robert: The Hutterites are farmers. I believe that Hutterites could be very important to efforts to turn Mars into a green, beautiful world. A Martian city of 10,000 people might be surrounded by up to 100 Hutterite colonies that produce food for themselves and for the city dwellers.
The high reproduction rate of the Hutterites, and corresponding increases in their ability to produce food, would allow city populations to grow rapidly by a combination of immigration from Earth and natural increases.
#149 Martian Politics and Economy » Bonobos and the Empress of Mars » 2017-03-08 14:11:42
- Scott Beach
- Replies: 13
I recently downloaded a document titled Transform Your Life and Save the World Through Living In Support of the Biological Truth About the Human Condition (First Edition), authored by Jeremy Griffith and published in 2016 by the World Transformation Movement.
I wondered whether that document might contain something relevant to transforming Mars. It does. It contains the following paragraphs:
Researchers have also reported that ‘bonobos historically have existed in a stable environment rich in sources of food...and unlike chimpanzees have developed a more cohesive social structure’. For example, ‘up to 100 bonobos at a time from several groups spend their night together. That would not be possible with chimpanzees because there would be brutal fighting between rival groups.’
Note that what’s being said about bonobos is amazingly similar—well, it’s almost identical—to how Plato described our distant ancestors long before bonobos were even known of, which was that they ‘dwelt naked, and mostly in the open air...and they had no beds, but lay on soft couches of grass’. And, in Hesiod’s words, ‘They with abundant goods ’midst quiet lands / All willing shared the gathering of their hands.’
Bonobos’ unlimited capacity for love is also apparent in this truly amazing first-hand account from researcher Vanessa Woods: ‘Bonobo love is like a laser beam. They stop. They stare at you as though they have been waiting their whole lives for you to walk into their jungle. And then they love you with such helpless abandon that you love them back. You have to love them back’.
And significantly, unlike other primate societies, bonobo society is matriarchal and focused on the nurturing of their infants, as this quote evidences: ‘Bonobo life is centered around the offspring. Unlike what happens among chimpanzees, all members of the bonobo social group help with infant care and share food with infants. If you are a bonobo infant, you can do no wrong...Bonobo females and their infants form the core of the group’.
All these descriptions (and you can read many more in chapter 5 of FREEDOM) provide powerful insights into how amazingly cooperative and loving bonobos, our closest living relative, are.
In a previous post I pondered the possibility that Mars might have an “Emperor” who performs specified ceremonial duties. And I suggested that the government of Mars might be described as an “imperial republic”.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 88#p135088
The foregoing information about bonobos makes me think that the “Imperial Republic of Mars” should have an “Empress”, who appoints a “President” who presides over meetings of the “Parliament of Mars”. The President would open each session of the Parliament by reminding its members that their first duty is to make Mars into the best place in the Solar System for children to grow up.
#150 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The Moon Treaty of 1979 - Turning Curse into a Blessing » 2017-03-08 10:44:41
...sooner than later, we'll need to get over the treaty prohibiting the introduction of fissionable materials in space.
Martin Fleischmann and Andrea Rossi have both reported that their "cold fusion" processes can produce up to 200 times as much energy as is used to drive the processes. Stated another way, the "coefficient of performance" (COP) is as high as 200.
We do not need uranium-based nuclear fission processes to develop outer space. However, I would probably not oppose the use of thorium-based fission reactors in space.