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#126 Re: Meta New Mars » Housekeeping » 2025-09-24 16:26:52

talking about cargo in a not so cargo topic seems out there.

Perishable food items are foods that will spoil, decay, or become unsafe to eat if not kept refrigerated or frozen, including meats, poultry, seafood, dairy products, eggs, cooked leftovers, and most fresh fruits and vegetables, especially those that are cut, chopped, or lack a hard outer skin.
Meat, Poultry, and Fish
Raw meats: such as ground beef, steaks, lamb, and pork.
Poultry, like fresh chicken, turkey, and duck.
Fish and seafood, including fresh fish, shrimp, lobster, and all types of shellfish.
Deli meats, which are processed and sliced.
Dairy and Eggs
Milk, cream, and yogurt.
Cheese, including soft and hard varieties.
Butter .
Eggs .
Fruits and Vegetables
Most fresh fruits and vegetables are perishable, particularly those without a hard skin like berries, tomatoes, and lettuce.
Cut or chopped produce, as this increases the rate of decay.
Cooked Foods and Leftovers
Any cooked leftovers, such as stews, cooked rice, and prepared meals.
Prepared salads: and other dishes containing perishable ingredients.
Other Perishables
Drinks with live bacteria, like some juices.
Sauces and dips: (like hummus, pesto, and sour cream), once opened.
Some baked goods, especially those with dairy or cream.

most are short life and even when frozen will not meet the needs.

Non-perishable food items are shelf-stable and do not require refrigeration, including canned goods (fruits, vegetables, meats, soups, beans), dried goods (rice, pasta, oats, dried fruit, nuts, seeds, jerky, dried beans), shelf-stable milk and juices, and pantry staples like peanut butter, honey, cooking oil, sugar, and crackers.
Canned & Pouched Foods
Proteins: Tuna, salmon, chicken, and beans.
Vegetables: Corn, green beans, carrots, and other vegetables.
Fruits: Peaches, pineapple, applesauce, and other fruits.
Soups & Stews: Meat-based, vegetable-based, and other ready-to-eat options.
Dried & Grains
Grains: Rice, oats, pasta, and couscous.
Legumes: Dried beans, lentils, and peas.
Snacks: Nuts, seeds, dried fruits (raisins, apricots), trail mix, jerky, and granola bars.
Pantry Staples
Spreads: Peanut butter, jelly, and other nut/seed butters.
Sweeteners & Sauces: Honey, sugar, syrup, and jarred pasta sauces.
Oils: Vegetable oil and other cooking oils.
Baking Ingredients: Pancake mix and powdered milk.
Beverages: Shelf-stable powdered milk, bottled water, and juice boxes.
Other Shelf-Stable Items Crackers and melba toast, Ready-to-eat meals (like MREs), and Hard candies


try to eat while on the journey if you have no supplies after these go bad, or if you need extra oxygen if the equipment fails. You need the safety net with you along the way or it a fail that you do not recover from.

#128 Re: Human missions » International Space Station (ISS / Alpha) » 2025-09-24 14:57:49

NASA will say goodbye to the International Space Station in 2030, and welcome in the age of commercial space stations

In 2030, the International Space Station will be deorbited: driven into a remote area of the Pacific Ocean.

I'm an aerospace engineer who has helped build a range of hardware and experiments for the ISS. As a member of the spaceflight community for over 30 years and a 17-year member of the NASA community, it will be hard for me to see the ISS come to an end.
Astronauts performing research inside the space station and payload experiments attached to the station's exterior have generated many publications in peer-reviewed science journals. Some of them have advanced our understanding of thunderstorms, led to improvements in the crystallization processes of key cancer-fighting drugs, detailed how to grow artificial retinas in space, explored the processing of ultrapure optical fibers and explained how to sequence DNA in orbit.

In total, more than 4,000 experiments have been conducted aboard the ISS, resulting in more than 4,400 research publications dedicated to advancing and improving life on Earth and helping forge a path for future space exploration activities.

The ISS has proven the value of conducting research in the unique environment of spaceflight—which has very low gravity, a vacuum, extreme temperature cycles and radiation—to advance scientists' understanding of a wide range of important physical, chemical and biological processes.

Keeping a presence in orbit
But in the wake of the station's retirement, NASA and its international partners are not abandoning their outpost in low-Earth orbit. Instead, they are looking for alternatives to continue to take advantage of low Earth orbit's promise as a unique research laboratory and to extend the continuous, 25-year human presence some 250 miles (402 kilometers) above Earth's surface.

In December 2021, NASA announced three awards to help develop privately owned, commercially operated space stations in low-Earth orbit.

For years, NASA has successfully sent supplies to the International Space Station using commercial partners, and the agency recently began similar business arrangements with SpaceX and Boeing for transporting crew aboard the Dragon and Starliner spacecraft, respectively.

While these stations are being built, Chinese astronauts will continue to live and work aboard their Tiangong space station, a three-person, permanently crewed facility orbiting approximately 250 miles (402 km) above Earth's surface. Consequently, if the ISS's occupied streak comes to an end, China and Tiangong will take over as the longest continually inhabited space station in operation: It's been occupied for approximately four years and counting.

It will be several years before any of these new commercial space stations circle Earth at around 17,500 miles per hour (28,000 kilometers per hour) and several years before the ISS is deorbited in 2030.

So while you have a chance, take a look up and enjoy the view. On most nights when the ISS flies over, it is simply magnificent: a brilliant blue-white point of light, usually the brightest object in the sky, silently executing a graceful arc across the sky.

Our ancestors could hardly have imagined that one day, one of the brightest objects in the night sky would have been conceived by the human mind and built by human hands.

#129 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Miniature ITV for Mars Flyby and Exploration Missions » 2025-09-24 14:44:18

For a four-person Mars crew, the total water tonnage required would be around 23 tons for a 30-month mission, based on advanced recycling technology with a 98% recovery rate. The actual tonnage could be significantly higher without such systems. 

The total mass for a Mars mission is determined by several factors: 
Mission duration:
A typical round trip to Mars, including time on the surface, is estimated to last 32 to 38 months, or about 1,000 to 1,140 days.

Water recycling efficiency:
Modern systems, like the one on the International Space Station (ISS), can recycle over 98% of the water from astronaut breath, sweat, and urine.

Water requirements per person:
An astronaut needs approximately 1 gallon (3.8 kg) of water per day for drinking, food preparation, and hygiene. Water tonnage calculation Using the approximate 32-month (960-day) mission duration, here is the breakdown of the water tonnage for a four-person crew: 

1. Calculate the gross water requirement Daily consumption per person: 3.8 kg.Total daily consumption (4 crew): 3.8 kg * 4=15.2 kg Gross mission total: 15.2 kg/day * 960 days=14,592 kg. 

2. Factor in water recycling Total water recycled (98%): 14,592 kg * 0.98=14,290.1 kg.
Makeup water needed: 14,592 kg -14,290.1 kg =301.9 kg. 

This figure (301.9 kg) represents only the water needed to replace what is lost from the recycling system, but does not include the initial supply for the journey itself. 

3. Determine the initial water supplyThe total tonnage launched from Earth would need to cover the water lost through recycling, provide a safety reserve for emergencies, and possibly function as a radiation shield during the deep-space transit. A more comprehensive NASA estimate calculates total requirements, including water for food production and other needs. For a four-person, 500-day mission, one estimate puts the total water mass at 3,450 kg (about 3.5 tons) with closed-loop systems. Scaling this figure to a 32-month mission gives us a more realistic total. 

NASA 500-day estimate: 3.5 tons for 4 crew.Annualized NASA estimate: 3.5 tons * (365/500)=2.56 tons/year
32-month mission estimate: 2.56 tons/year * (32/12)=6.83 tons. The critical role of water for a crewed Mars mission The wide range of water tonnage estimates highlights the complexity of mission planning. 
Radiation shielding: Because water is an effective material for blocking space radiation, some mission designs include launching extra water from Earth to serve as radiation shielding during the transit to Mars.

In-Situ Resource Utilization (ISRU):
To significantly reduce launch mass, future missions will rely on ISRU to create water and fuel from Martian resources.Mass trade-offs: A mission might carry more water from Earth as a backup, or rely on ISRU, which requires more complex equipment and energy. Based on these considerations, a modern Mars mission would launch with an initial water tonnage in the single-digit range, supplemented by highly efficient recycling systems. The total mass that must be accounted for over the full mission lifetime, however, would be closer to the 23-ton figure, with most of it being continuously recycled.

#130 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Miniature ITV for Mars Flyby and Exploration Missions » 2025-09-24 14:40:06

40 mt payload content food for a crew of 4 journey.

For a four-person Mars mission, the food tonnage would be between 6.6 and 15 tons, depending on the total mission duration and whether resupply missions or local food production are used. The total mass includes the food itself plus the necessary packaging. Key factors influencing food tonnage Mission duration 

A Mars mission is typically estimated to be a round trip of 2 to 3 years, with a stay on the Martian surface. The total mass of food required is a direct product of the mission length. 

Average daily mass:
A standard estimate for space food is about 1.83 kg (4 lbs) per astronaut per day.Total food mass calculation: Assuming a 2.5-year (912.5-day) mission, the total food tonnage for four astronauts would be calculated as follows:
1.83 kg/person/day * 912.5 days * 4 astronauts =6,680 kg
This equals about 6.7 metric tons.

Mission architecture 
The overall mission plan significantly affects the food tonnage that must be launched from Earth. 

All prepackaged:
If all food is launched from Earth, the tonnage would be at the high end of the estimate, especially if extra supplies are included for safety margins or emergencies. Some proposals suggest sending supply caches to Mars ahead of the crew.

Partial local production:
Integrating local food production, such as growing crops in a Martian habitat, could dramatically reduce the amount of food that needs to be carried. A diet supplemented with fresh vegetables and other produce could significantly lower the initial launch mass. 

Food type 
The composition of the food is a critical variable. Freeze-dried vs. whole food: Freeze-dried or dehydrated food contains much less water, making it far lighter to transport than whole food.Packaging: Packaging, while individually light, adds up over the course of a multi-year mission. Innovations in lighter, more efficient packaging could contribute to reducing overall tonnage. Contingency supplies Mission planners must also account for potential issues and emergencies. 

Buffer stock: A contingency supply of food is often included to cover mission extensions or unforeseen problems, adding significant mass to the total payload. For a 4-person, 900-day mission, a 500-day contingency supply could add over 10 tons of mass. 

Example calculation 
Here is a breakdown of a potential scenario for a four-person, 2.5-year (913-day) Mars mission. Daily food intake per person: 1.83 kg

Total crew-days:4 people * 913 days=3,652 person-days
Total food mass: 3,652 person-days * 1.83 kg/person/day=6,698 kg
Base food tonnage: Approximately 6.7 metric ton

Perishable food items are foods that will spoil, decay, or become unsafe to eat if not kept refrigerated or frozen, including meats, poultry, seafood, dairy products, eggs, cooked leftovers, and most fresh fruits and vegetables, especially those that are cut, chopped, or lack a hard outer skin.
Meat, Poultry, and Fish
Raw meats: such as ground beef, steaks, lamb, and pork.
Poultry, like fresh chicken, turkey, and duck.
Fish and seafood, including fresh fish, shrimp, lobster, and all types of shellfish.
Deli meats, which are processed and sliced.
Dairy and Eggs
Milk, cream, and yogurt.
Cheese, including soft and hard varieties.
Butter .
Eggs .
Fruits and Vegetables
Most fresh fruits and vegetables are perishable, particularly those without a hard skin like berries, tomatoes, and lettuce.
Cut or chopped produce, as this increases the rate of decay.
Cooked Foods and Leftovers
Any cooked leftovers, such as stews, cooked rice, and prepared meals.
Prepared salads: and other dishes containing perishable ingredients.
Other Perishables
Drinks with live bacteria, like some juices.
Sauces and dips: (like hummus, pesto, and sour cream), once opened.
Some baked goods, especially those with dairy or cream.

Non-perishable food items are shelf-stable and do not require refrigeration, including canned goods (fruits, vegetables, meats, soups, beans), dried goods (rice, pasta, oats, dried fruit, nuts, seeds, jerky, dried beans), shelf-stable milk and juices, and pantry staples like peanut butter, honey, cooking oil, sugar, and crackers.
Canned & Pouched Foods
Proteins: Tuna, salmon, chicken, and beans.
Vegetables: Corn, green beans, carrots, and other vegetables.
Fruits: Peaches, pineapple, applesauce, and other fruits.
Soups & Stews: Meat-based, vegetable-based, and other ready-to-eat options.
Dried & Grains
Grains: Rice, oats, pasta, and couscous.
Legumes: Dried beans, lentils, and peas.
Snacks: Nuts, seeds, dried fruits (raisins, apricots), trail mix, jerky, and granola bars.
Pantry Staples
Spreads: Peanut butter, jelly, and other nut/seed butters.
Sweeteners & Sauces: Honey, sugar, syrup, and jarred pasta sauces.
Oils: Vegetable oil and other cooking oils.
Baking Ingredients: Pancake mix and powdered milk.
Beverages: Shelf-stable powdered milk, bottled water, and juice boxes.
Other Shelf-Stable Items Crackers and melba toast, Ready-to-eat meals (like MREs), and Hard candies

#131 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Miniature ITV for Mars Flyby and Exploration Missions » 2025-09-24 14:12:31

A fully fueled Starship carries 1,200 metric tons of propellant (liquid methane and liquid oxygen) in its tanks. Earth departure for the 40 mt cargo needs to get to mars.

For a Mars mission carrying a 40-metric-ton payload, a Starship uses approximately 676 metric tons of fuel for the Earth departure burn after being fully refueled in Earth's orbit. The vehicle is powered by Raptor engines that burn liquid methane and liquid oxygen.

A staship fully loaded at earth orbit with fuel and just a 40mt cargo still requires for a propulsive landing more than I had thought due to the mass of the ship of 85mt for the early versions.

For a propulsive landing on Mars with a 40-ton payload, a SpaceX Starship would need approximately 30 to 40 tons of methalox propellant for the final landing burn. The Raptor engines use sub-cooled liquid methane (CH₄) as fuel and liquid oxygen (LOX) as the oxidizer.

Assuming all goes well with a landing is the question leaves quite a bit of fuel still in the ship once on mars surface.

To return to earth from mars with just 10 mT of cargo needs.

For a Starship with an 85-metric-ton dry mass and a 10-metric-ton payload to return from Mars, it would need approximately 340 metric tons of fuel synthesized on the Martian surface. The overall mission requires significant fuel production and refueling in low Earth orbit (LEO)

total fuel load at earth= 1200 mt
departure       = 676 mt
landing          =    40 mt
return launch =  340 mt
----------------------------

required            1056 mt

#132 Re: Life support systems » Mars Water regolith soils 1 foot depth only » 2025-09-24 14:08:49

cargo requires both on first missions to go with a crew but for preloading one can use the slow barge method it still needs both depending on the item being shipped.
current goods go by Dragon truck which has both for all sorts of items including food.

to which this is not about cargo but building material for insitu refueling.

edit
something to remember is that a space tug goes orbit to orbit but does not land on a planet.

They would require an orbital platform to transfer the cargo to a down freighter to the planets surface.

#134 Re: Human missions » Why Artemis is “better” than Apollo. » 2025-09-23 17:20:44

The Orion capsule's mass varies, with a fully loaded mass of over 20 tonnes (44,000 lbs) for Artemis V, including a 13,500 kg European Service Module (ESM) and 8,600 kg of propellant. After its separation from the SLS rocket, Orion is expected to have a mass of approximately 26,375 kg.

Orion Spacecraft - Key Mass Specifications
Total Orion Launch Mass:
Over 20 tonnes (44,000 lbs)
Mass After SLS Separation (example):
Approximately 26,375 kg (58,147 lbs)
Crew Module Launch Weight (example):
22,900 lbs
Service Module Launch Weight (example):
34,085 lbs
Total Mass on Earth with Fuel (example):
10,000 kg for Lunar View refuelling module
Breakdown by Component (Example - Artemis V):
European Service Module (ESM):
Total launch mass: 13,500 kg
Propellant: 8,600 kg
Potable water: 240 kg
Oxygen: 90 kg
Nitrogen: 30 kg
Factors Influencing Mass
Mission Profile:
Mass specifications change between missions (e.g., Artemis I vs. Artemis II) due to varying propellant loads.
Payload:
Any additional cargo or equipment carried by the capsule will contribute to its overall mass.
Mission Duration:
A longer duration in space requires more supplies, increasing the mass of the service module and, consequently, the overall Orion spacecraft

he Artemis program's Orion capsule has a life support system (ECLSS) that is primarily limited by the amount of onboard consumables it can carry. The maximum endurance for a four-person crew is 21 days in a standalone mission. This limitation is tied to the design of the capsule itself, though its endurance can be significantly extended by docking with other spacecraft.
Standalone mission limitations
Duration: The Orion capsule is designed to support a crew of four for up to 21 days for missions that do not dock with another habitat.
Consumables: The 21-day limit is due to the fixed amount of food, water, oxygen, and nitrogen stored within the capsule.
Carbon dioxide and humidity: The system uses a regenerable carbon dioxide and humidity removal system, which is an advancement over the Apollo-era technology. However, the efficiency of this system is critical, and a design flaw identified in 2023 with the Atmosphere Revitalization System circuitry had to be addressed to prevent potential high levels of carbon dioxide.
Waste management: Storage capacity for human waste is another constraint on the total mission duration.
Docked mission capabilities
While a standalone Orion can only support its crew for a few weeks, its life support capabilities can be extended when it is connected to a larger habitat or module.
Lunar Gateway: When docked to a future habitat like the Lunar Gateway, Orion can support a crew for up to six months while its own systems are in a quiescent, or standby, mode. The Gateway will provide the additional consumables and robust life support needed for longer lunar missions.
Potential for Mars missions: Orion's subsystems were designed with flexibility in mind and could theoretically be integrated into a larger transport system for a future mission to Mars, potentially lasting up to 1,000 days. In such a scenario, the primary life support would be handled by other modules, and Orion would serve as the crew transport and safe-haven.
Emergency and redundancy
The life support system is built with redundancy and backup capabilities to ensure crew safety during a critical event.
Spacesuits: In the event of a cabin depressurization, the crew can survive for several days in their pressurized Crew Survival System (CSS) spacesuits, allowing for a return to Earth.
System redundancy: The ECLSS is designed with redundancy to keep critical systems functioning if a single component fails

#136 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Forty 40 Ton Mars Delivery Mechanism » 2025-09-23 15:47:03

Desired is the ability to land a ship on mars surface in the 40mt neighborhood after using airbreaking and propulsive landing.

Of course there is some wiggle room.

Launch of ship to mars from earth orbit so how to have a starship that is 120 mt dry loss that much mass does no seem possible.

Assuming a launch profile based on SpaceX's Starship system, which uses Raptor engines and a methane CH4 propellant, a 40-tonne payload for a Mars transfer mission requires approximately 676 metric tonnes (mt) of propellant for the transit portion alone. However, the total fuel needed is significantly higher when considering all mission phases. The complex mission requires multiple propulsive burns and in-orbit refueling. A simplified estimate for a mission to transport a 40-tonne payload to Mars would involve the following phases: Launch from Earth to low-Earth orbit (LEO).On-orbit refueling in LEO.Trans-Mars Injection (TMI) burn to escape Earth's orbit.Entry, descent, and landing (EDL) at Mars.

To determine the methane CH4 and liquid oxygen LOX fuel requirement for a 40 metric ton (mt) ship landing on Mars, several factors must be calculated. The key steps are determining the change in velocity (delta-v) needed for the landing, applying the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation, and calculating the specific masses of methane and oxygen based on the Raptor engine's characteristics. 

Assumptions for this calculation Initial ship mass: 40 mt (40,000 kg).
This is the dry mass of the ship plus any payload, but before the addition of landing propellant.Propulsive landing only: The calculation assumes no aerodynamic braking or very minimal atmospheric drag assistance. However, SpaceX's actual Starship landing profile uses substantial aerodynamic braking, which significantly reduces the propellant needed.

Raptor engine specific impulse (Isp):
An average vacuum Isp of 380 seconds is assumed for the Raptor Vacuum engines, which is more representative of a landing scenario than the sea-level variants.

Raptor engine mix ratio:
The Raptor engine uses liquid methane and liquid oxygen, typically at a mass ratio of 1:3.6 (methane to oxygen)

For a fully propulsive landing without using atmospheric drag, a Mars landing requires a delta-v Delta V of approximately 4.5 to 6 km/s. If the ship uses supersonic retro-propulsion with atmospheric braking, the required propulsive delta-v is much lower, possibly as low as 75 m/s, although this is very dependent on the entry velocity. 

The total propellant mass is approximately 5.5 mt. We use the Raptor engine's mix ratio of 1:3.6 for methane CH4 to oxygen LOX by mass. 

Based on the assumptions, the approximate fuel requirements for a 40 mt ship using two Raptor engines for a propulsive Mars landing would be: 
Total propellant: 5.5 mt
Methane CH4: 1.2 mt
Liquid oxygen LOX: 4.3 mt


Same ship returning to earth from mars surface.

For a 40-metric-ton (mt) ship returning to Earth from Mars using two Raptor engines, the estimated propellant requirement is approximately 194.2 mt of methalox (liquid methane and liquid oxygen). This calculation assumes a propellant depot is available in Mars orbit and that the engines are vacuum-optimized Raptor variants.
This is an estimate based on the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation and can be affected by factors such as mission profile and gravity losses.

This estimate relies on three key parameters: 

Mass of the spacecraft: 40 mt.
This is the "dry mass" m_{f} in the rocket equation, representing the ship, cargo, and all components except for the propellant.

Specific impulse Isp of the engines:
The vacuum-optimized Raptor engines (RVac) have a specific impulse of approximately 380 seconds.

Delta-v required for the maneuver:
The delta-v needed to launch from the Martian surface to a trans-Earth injection (TEI) trajectory is approximately 4.27 km/s. 

Adjusting for a 20% methane/80% oxygen mix Raptor engines use a methalox propellant mix, which consists of approximately 20% methane (fuel) and 80% liquid oxygen (oxidizer) by mass. The total propellant mass is the combination of the fuel and oxidizer. 
Total propellant mass m_{p}: 86 mt
Fuel (methane) mass: 0.20 * 86 mt = 17.2 mt
Oxidizer (liquid oxygen) mass: 0.80 * 86 mt = 68.8 mt 
Assumptions and other considerations The calculated fuel requirement is a theoretical minimum based on the ideal rocket equation. Several factors can increase the actual fuel mass needed: 

Atmospheric drag on Mars:
While the Martian atmosphere is thin, it can cause some drag during ascent, requiring a small amount of extra propellant.

Gravity losses:
The effect of gravity pulling against the rocket during its ascent and burn means the rocket must use additional propellant to counteract this force. The 4.27 km/s figure already accounts for typical gravity losses, but actual losses can vary.

Engine inefficiencies:
The Isp value of 380s is an ideal figure, and the engine may not achieve this perfectly throughout the burn.Vehicle mass variations: A fully fueled ship is heavier and less agile than one with less fuel.

So to make this work starship is now a two or three stage rocket that expends takes are we go.
one crew type and a cargo as its not leaving.

#137 Re: Life support systems » Mars Water regolith soils 1 foot depth only » 2025-09-23 15:16:44

Now how to shrink the system so that not as many ships are required?

#138 Re: Meta New Mars » Housekeeping » 2025-09-23 15:07:54

You sent 1 on the 15th and the other 20250921 for the newmarsmember

both were in the spam folder.

#139 Re: Life support systems » Mars Water regolith soils 1 foot depth only » 2025-09-22 17:31:52

https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Gurrea_2021.pdf

Something that I had calculated a long time back was the quantity of ships needed to support 1 crewed for return to earth.

Pioneer Astronautics demonstrated a reactor capable of producing 1 Kg a day of methalox fuel from hydrogen and carbon dioxide while consuming a power of 700W. For 710 tons in 400 days that is 1.89 MW. (Zubrin et al., 2013) Assuming 400 days to produce the 710 tons of fuel needed, 352 tons of water (for electrolysis) and 1.89 MW of power would be needed. Using the methods and assumptions detailed in section 4.3 (including a 20% margin for safety), the solar infrastructure would be:

• 229.2 tons in mass.
• 3437.4 cubic meters in volume.
• 57290.1 square meters in area.

The deployment would require 5 to 6 Starships (volume constrained) and significant deployment operations and maintenance.
Power remains one of the most significant challenges of a Mars mission architecture that accounts for the return of the astronauts. As with issue 1, failure in this area would result in loss of crew.

#140 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Forty 40 Ton Mars Delivery Mechanism » 2025-09-22 17:13:54

Assuming you are referring to a Starship-class vehicle with a mass of 66 metric tons (mt) and three Raptor engines, a propulsive landing on Earth would require approximately 3–6 tons of liquid methane and liquid oxygen propellant. This is based on the following factors: 

Vehicle mass and engine thrust:
The mass of 66 mt is the dry weight of the spacecraft, excluding propellant. The final mass during landing would be higher, including any remaining payload and the three Raptor engines. Each Raptor engine is capable of at least 230 tons of thrust, giving a three-engine cluster significant propulsive capability.

Delta-V for landing:
A propulsive landing on Earth requires a change in velocity (\(\Delta v\)) to transition from atmospheric braking to a final, controlled vertical descent. This terminal velocity is typically around 50–100 m/s.

Rocket equation and exhaust velocity:
You can estimate the required propellant using the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation:\(m_{fuel}=m_{final}\cdot (e^{\Delta v/v_{exhaust}}-1)\)For a Raptor engine, the exhaust velocity (\(v_{exhaust}\)) is about 3,500 m/s (from a specific impulse of 350s). The final mass (\(m_{final}\)) is the spacecraft's mass just before the final landing burn.

Propellant mass estimation:
Assuming a 70 mt final mass (including a small payload) and a 100 m/s burn:\(m_{fuel}=70\cdot (e^{100/3500}-1)\approx 2\ tons\)SpaceX's own internal analysis has produced slightly higher figures, around 6 tons, based on simulations and real-world results. This higher figure accounts for additional fuel reserves, engine gimballing, and safety margins. 

Breakdown of the landing process
A propulsive landing with this type of vehicle and engine setup would include these phases: 

Header tanks:
The fuel for the landing maneuver is drawn from smaller header tanks, which contain a fraction of the total propellant. This is more reliable and prevents the main tanks from sloshing. It also ensures the engines have a steady propellant flow, a key factor in successful propulsive landings.

"Belly-flop" maneuver:
During atmospheric reentry, the spacecraft enters a belly-flop orientation, using its body and control flaps to slow down. This reduces the need for propulsive braking.

"Landing flip" maneuver:
Shortly before touching down, the engines ignite and perform a flip maneuver to orient the spacecraft vertically for landing.

Precision and controls:
The final landing requires precise throttling and gimballing of the engines to counteract gravity and achieve a soft touchdown

#142 Re: Meta New Mars » Housekeeping » 2025-09-22 16:43:18

I replaced it with the update but its still putting extra junk in posts above 3870 link

it does not know how to do subscript
such as methane = CH4 it shows its as CH_{4}
exponents are another

its the text limitations of math

#143 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Forty 40 Ton Mars Delivery Mechanism » 2025-09-22 14:28:37

so the mars ship plus payload would create a propulsive landing

To land a 66 metric ton (mt) craft on Mars using propulsive methods, a significant amount of methane (\(CH_{4}\)) and oxygen (\(O_{2}\)) propellant is needed to perform the required braking maneuvers. A full propulsive landing is not necessary due to the thin Martian atmosphere, which can provide initial braking through aerobraking. A combination of aerobraking and retro-propulsion is the most efficient method for large spacecraft. Here is a breakdown of the fuel estimate and the assumptions in BBCode. [center][size=5]Propellant for a 66 mt Mars Propulsive Landing[/size][/center] SummaryLanding a 66 mt craft on Mars is most efficiently accomplished by using a combination of aerobraking and a final propulsive burn. For a 66 mt craft, estimates suggest around 20-30 mt of methalox propellant would be required for the terminal landing phase. Mission Parameters

  • [] Craft Mass (Dry): 66 mt (Metric Tons)[] Propellant Type: Methane (\(CH_{4}\)) and Liquid Oxygen (\(LOX\) or \(O_{2}\)), commonly known as "methalox".[] Landing Strategy: Aerobraking followed by supersonic retro-propulsion.[] Specific Impulse (\(I_{sp}\)): Approximately 350-370 seconds for a methalox engine in vacuum, but lower during a landing burn in the atmosphere.

  • Delta-V (\(\Delta v\)) Required: Estimated to be in the range of 400-500 m/s for the final, propulsive landing burn, after aerobraking has significantly slowed the craft.

 Propellant Calculation (\(M_{p}\))The mass of propellant required is determined using the Tsiolkovsky Rocket Equation. \(M_{p}=M_{wet}-M_{dry}\) \(M_{wet}=M_{dry}\cdot e^{\frac{\Delta v}{I_{sp}\cdot g_{0}}}\) Where:

  • [] \(M_{wet}\) is the initial wet mass of the craft (including propellant).[] \(M_{dry}\) is the final dry mass of the craft (payload + empty tanks).[] \(\Delta v\) is the change in velocity.[] \(I_{sp}\) is the specific impulse.[] \(g_{0}\) is standard gravity (9.81 \(m/s^{2}\)).[] \(e\) is the mathematical constant (approximately 2.718).

 Assuming a \(\Delta v\) of 480 m/s and an average effective \(I_{sp}\) of 300 seconds for the atmospheric landing burn: \(M_{wet}=66mt\cdot e^{\frac{480}{300\cdot 9.81}}\) \(M_{wet}\approx 66mt\cdot e^{0.163}\) \(M_{wet}\approx 66mt\cdot 1.177\) \(M_{wet}\approx 77.68mt\) \(M_{p}=77.68mt-66mt\) \(M_{p}\approx 11.68mt\) Key Considerations

  • [] Mixture Ratio: Methalox engines use a mixture ratio (oxidizer to fuel) of around 3.5. For 11.68 mt of propellant, this equates to roughly 9.17 mt of \(LOX\) and 2.51 mt of \(CH_{4}\).[] Margin and Boil-off: Space missions require significant margins for unexpected events. Propellant boil-off during the long transit to Mars must also be accounted for by loading extra fuel.

  • Atmospheric Conditions: The actual performance of the engine will vary with atmospheric pressure, which affects the effective \(I_{sp}\) during the landing burn.

 Estimated Propellant Breakdown

  • [] Total Propellant Mass: 11.68 mt (minimum calculated for a 480 m/s \(\Delta v\)).[] Total Methalox Mass (with Margin): An operational mission would carry more, likely in the range of 20-30 mt, to be safe.[] Methane (\(CH_{4}\)) Required: ~ 5-7.5 mt[] Liquid Oxygen (\(LOX\)) Required: ~ 15-22.5 mt

#144 Re: Meta New Mars » Housekeeping » 2025-09-22 14:18:06

I sent to both of yours through the mailer system.

#145 Re: Human missions » Starboat » 2025-09-22 14:15:33

AI Overview     
120 metric tons (mt) of methane and liquid oxygen (LOX) refer to a rocket propellant combination used in advanced launch vehicles, most notably SpaceX's Starship. This type of fuel system has several advantages that make it a compelling choice for future reusable rockets and interplanetary missions. Context: The Starship system For context, the propellant load for the upper stage of SpaceX's Starship spacecraft is 1,500 metric tons, consisting of 330 mt of liquid methane and 1,170 mt of liquid oxygen.

A quantity of 120 mt would be roughly 8% of the total propellant load for the upper stage. Advantages of a methane-LOX propellant system Enables reusability: Unlike kerosene (RP-1), which burns "dirty" and leaves behind soot, methane burns cleanly. This greatly reduces engine wear and turnaround time between flights, which is essential for reusable rockets.

Refuelable on Mars:
Methane can be manufactured on Mars by processing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and water ice from the planet's surface using the Sabatier process. This "in-situ resource utilization" (ISRU) removes the need to bring return fuel from Earth, which significantly lowers the cost and complexity of a Mars mission.High performance: While less efficient than liquid hydrogen by mass, liquid methane provides a higher specific impulse (\(I_{sp}\)) than kerosene. Its high density also allows for smaller and lighter propellant tanks compared to hydrogen, which more than makes up for the difference in specific impulse.

Reduced operational complexity:
The boiling points of methane and LOX are relatively close, so they can be stored in tanks separated by only a common bulkhead. This allows for more compact and structurally efficient vehicle designs compared to rockets using liquid hydrogen, which is much colder and requires heavier, highly insulated tankage. Considerations and challenges Ignition source needed: Methane and oxygen are not hypergolic, meaning they require an ignition source to start the combustion process. This adds complexity compared to hypergolic fuels that ignite on contact.

Explosion risk:
Methane and LOX are miscible, meaning they can mix together. Because there is little data on the explosive potential of this combination, launch agencies like the FAA have funded research to better understand the risks and ensure public safety.

Cryogenic handling:
Both propellants are cryogenic and require specialized handling to keep them in a liquid state. This is especially challenging for long-duration missions where propellant boil-off must be managed. The significance of "120 mt" The phrase "120 mt of methane and lox" does not represent a standard rocket load, but it is a plausible amount for a single tanker run to an orbital depot. During on-orbit refueling, a Starship could top off its tanks with more propellant to reach a higher-energy target like the Moon or Mars. For example: 

Orbital refueling:
A tanker Starship could deliver a portion of its fuel to another spacecraft already in orbit.Mission segment: It could represent the propellant needed for a specific maneuver, such as a Mars ascent stage or a lunar lander's return trip.

#146 Re: Human missions » Mars Direct; Mars Semidirect; Design Reference Mission. Need Updating? » 2025-09-22 14:11:44

The current plan for starboat is to size the ship to just 20% with only 8% for fuel load to a starships.

#147 Re: Meta New Mars » offtherock postings » 2025-09-22 14:01:11

Thermal printers are different from normal ink printers just as a 3d printer is for plastics versus metals. All these printer types only output what has been sent from a computers detail file as they do nothing alone without this input to them.
Self replication is sort of like life in that the genetic coded computer in the cell directs the instructions required to make another and in it contains all of the other instructions to make the cells all diferent.
So that means being able to code with the atom what needs to be given next in the self replication process knowing what atom comes next in the self replication process until finished.

#148 Re: Life on Mars » Curiosity and the life on Mars Question. » 2025-09-22 07:02:14

Robots move slow with limited targetted tools onboard but under the right place and timing they surprise.
Reading the sensed details takes time and determination to follow the clues that they yeiled.
Since Viking we had suggestions of life followed by other machines testing for the same finite detalis.
But each time being dismissed.

NASA Says Mars Rover Discovered Potential Biosignature Last Year

pia26368orig.jpg?resize=768,559

“This finding is the direct result of NASA’s effort to strategically plan, develop, and execute a mission able to deliver exactly this type of science — the identification of a potential biosignature on Mars,”

#149 Re: Unmanned probes » VIPER Lunar Rover to Map Water Ice » 2025-09-22 06:43:18

Being revived NASA resurrects its VIPER moon rover for a 2027 mission with Blue Origin


AA1N0RHf.img?w=768&h=432&m=6

NASA is apparently giving its ice-scouting moon rover mission another try. The space agency has announced that the Volatiles Investigating Polar Exploration Rover (VIPER) project — which was called off last year after a series of delays and mounting costs — could catch a ride to the moon with Blue Origin in 2027 under the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) program. Blue Origin must first plan and demonstrate how the delivery at the lunar surface would work, and if it's all to NASA's liking, VIPER will be ferried by the company's Blue Moon Mark 1 lander.

Blue Origin hasn't yet attempted a moon landing, but the first opportunity for its Blue Moon Mark 1 lander is expected to launch later this year as part of another CLPS delivery. That mission will also help to inform NASA's decision about VIPER's rideshare, which would use a second Mark 1 lander that the agency says is already in production. If VIPER does eventually make it to the moon, it'll be deployed in the extreme environment of the lunar South Pole to search for water ice and other resources that could support future missions.

“This delivery could show us where ice is most likely to be found and easiest to access, as a future resource for humans,” said Joel Kearns, Deputy Associate Administrator for Exploration with NASA's Science Mission Directorate, in a statement. “And by studying these sources of lunar water, we also gain valuable insight into the distribution and origin of volatiles across the solar system, helping us better understand the processes that have shaped our space environment and how our inner solar system has evolved.”

#150 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Forty 40 Ton Mars Delivery Mechanism » 2025-09-22 06:29:03

All start with the assumption that we have limited lift from earths gravity well. Also that we have trouble with landing tonnage as well.

Mars Direct 3 is a Mars mission architecture developed by Miguel Gurre

Mars Direct; Mars Semidirect; Design Reference Mission. Need Updating?

Starboat

AI Overview     

For a 26-metric-ton (mt) spacecraft, the estimated fuel mass required for a propulsive landing on Mars is approximately 40 to 60 mt, bringing the total landing vehicle mass to 66–86 mt. This relies on significant aerodynamic deceleration in the Martian atmosphere before the final propulsive braking maneuver. The final mass varies based on the engine's efficiency and the exact landing trajectory. Fuel requirements for Mars landing Several factors influence the fuel mass needed to land a 26 mt spacecraft on Mars: Deceleration strategy: A Mars landing is a complex process known as Entry, Descent, and Landing (EDL). Due to Mars's thin atmosphere, a propulsive-only landing is inefficient. Instead, spacecraft typically use a combination of methods, including:A protective aeroshell and heat shield to withstand atmospheric entry at high speed.A parachute to provide further slowing.A final rocket-powered braking phase for the precision touchdown.The 26 mt figure would refer to the mass of the final lander after shedding the heat shield and parachute system.Engine specific impulse (\(I_{sp}\)): The efficiency of the rocket engine is a critical factor, described by the specific impulse (\(I_{sp}\)).Higher \(I_{sp}\) engines, like those using liquid hydrogen and oxygen, provide more thrust per unit of fuel, but hydrogen is difficult to store.Methane and oxygen (\(\text{CH}_{4}/\text{O}_{2}\)) offer a lower \(I_{sp}\) but are easier to store and can be manufactured on Mars using in-situ resource utilization (ISRU). This trade-off is central to Mars mission architecture.Delta-V (\(\Delta v\)): The amount of total change in velocity required for the propulsive landing phase is roughly 3.8 km/s from orbit to the surface if parachutes aren't used, but is less when combined with aerodynamic braking. A higher \(I_{sp}\) reduces the propellant mass needed to achieve this \(\Delta v\). Architectural approaches Planetary mission planners have developed different architectures to manage the challenge of large-scale Mars landings: Heavy landers: An analysis of Mars landing vehicles for future human missions found that a total initial mass of 73.0 mt was needed to land a 10 mt payload, while a 25 mt payload (closer to your scenario) required an even larger vehicle. A significant portion of this mass would be propellant for the final descent phase.SpaceX Starship: SpaceX's Starship is designed to land payloads of 100 mt or more using a methane/oxygen engine system. In this architecture, the Starship tanker refuels the Mars-bound ship in Earth orbit, making propellant for landing part of a larger, refueled system.In-situ resource utilization (ISRU): Some mission architectures propose landing an initial vehicle with a fuel-manufacturing plant. This plant would use Martian resources (water ice and atmospheric \(\text{CO}_{2}\)) to produce methane and oxygen propellant for a later landing or for the return trip, significantly reducing the mass that needs to be transported from Earth/

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