New Mars Forums

"My theory is that the dust lofted high into the atmosphere is what causes the sky to have its "traditional" salmon color, but sometimes the atmosphere becomes devoid of suspended dust particles, which would give the sky an Earth-like hue on occasion.  *Or*...these images have been digitally processed to the extent we don't have a clue to what the Martian sky really looks like...lol.."

Hello Byron,
You aren't too far off from the simple fact, we don't know the true colors.
Well from what I've learned over the past couple of years looking at photos and panoramics of Mars, that you really can't be sure of anything about the color of the planet, sky or ground...
From what I can gather, all, and I do mean all photos of Mars taken by spacecraft are taken in monochromatic, just black and white.  Then back at home, using techniques I'm not familliar with, processes the photos due to predetermined color keys. (I think they sent with the Viking Landers a panel that faced the cameras that had a simple pattern of colors, in the photos I've seen they are red, blue, and yellow)  Not even the hubble takes color images. (this explains why Mars looks waaaaay redder in Hubble's eye than it did through the Viking orbiter)
I'm not sure what the reasons for this are, but we're stuck with it.
As for the color of Mars's sky, I've heard that computer models suggest it would have that pinkish hue from the horizon to about halfway up towards the zenith, from which point it would suddenly deepen to a dark blue (or blend into it with that greenish hue) where the closer to the zenith you look the darker it gets, and at the zenith itself  and a ways around it the bighter stars and planets can be seen, unless the sun is there at the time in which case beyond its glareit would still be the deep blue. (although blue is earthlike, i think its the elements in the sky here that make the color, however on Mars the color change is due to the lack of air)
Of course on days where the dust is not in the sky the blue may go right to the horizon, or that green hue may perisist in place of the dust...

Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt

Well thanks to odyssey's findings we can now say with some degree of certainty where the first settlements will be located.  Either low on the Amazonis plains or along the inside of the southern rim of the Hellas Basin.
Reasons for which are that they are indeed low lying areas with more atmosphere above them to help absorb or reflect harmful particles and radiation from space and sun, and the fact that right underneath Amazonis is a great concentration of water.  As for Hellas, the basin itself is very dry, however it is also near great underground resevoirs of water 'round and 'neath the South pole.
Hellas will have to have some sort of road or transponder network between the settlement and the pole for water gathering purposes. (Although I'm sure a trek through the wild and unpredictable terrain of the southern highlands will be in order for the settlers considering the monotony of the basin floor)
Amazonis settlements however need only drill straight down.
As for containment, I feel, especially in the early years, that our settlements be as closed as possible.  I think the only "waste" we should produce should be heat (if there's any to spare) 
A nuclear reactor ought to produce more than we need.
Other contaminants should be recycled to the best of our abilities, I'm sure by the time we get there someone will figure out what to do with those darn radioactive spent uranium rods...

Your friendly neighborhood Martian
-Marr

Well, I've reviewed this draft Constitution and have come up with these points of controversy: (This is a long post so please bear with me)

Points of Controversy in Martian Provisional Constitution as brought forth by Scott G. Beach

#1
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Section 1. This Constitution shall become effective when it has been adopted by the Mars Society and when the United Nations declares that Mars shall be governed and settled in accordance with this Constitution

My problem with this is that it implies that only the Mars Society will be deciding the details of every Martian Settlement mission...I suggest that this be amended to include any group that has any actual claim to be staked on Mars in the form of settlements...Of course any mention of the Mars Society within this entire Constitution should be amended to include various groups

#2
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Section 3. Any person

Does this include people who are not members of any groups interested in settling Mars, if not we must remember, it is in ambiguaty that Constitutions experience problems, the 2nd amend. and Impeachment sections of the US const. being good examples...Anywho, if this does mean ANY person then it is important to remember that Terrestrial organizations, especially the govt's or corporations funding the missions will desire a great many things from a provisional Martian Govt.  and this section may give them the power to do anything the want in regards to the way the Provisional constitution is amended over time...

#3
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Section 6.  Twenty or more people may jointly apply for a Settlement Charter. Such application shall be submitted in writing to the Terrestrial Embassy of this Government or to any terrestrial Consulate. Such application shall be accompanied by the payment of an application processing fee of one ounce of gold.

Firstly, the point of a provisional Govt. is to exclude terrestrial influences from determining what is done with the resources there...Any Land Charters should be given out by the provisional govt. itself without having to consult terran forces...Secondly, how valuable will gold be on Mars, I mean its true value in respect to its industrial and commercial uses beyond jewlery here is grossly overrated, a different standard must be used on Mars, perhaps the Nitrogen standard discussed in KSR's trilogy will suffice, after all it will probably end up being one of the most valuable substances out there as it is needed in agriculture...And as for the number of people required to request a land charter, this should be reduced if not eliminated as a factor, after all, we don't want to eliminate the possibility of homesteading, as for the land givin in charters, that should be discussed on a case by case basis, as not everyone is going to need an area 20 klicks in diameter...

#4
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Section 7. The Government may establish and maintain a Terrestrial Embassy and one or more terrestrial Consulates.

Only if the populace of said settlement chooses through a vote or perhaps 2/3 majority...

#5
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Section 8. The Government may establish and maintain a Mars Development Bank. The Bank may lease portions of Mars to people, companies, and states for periods of up to 50 martian years.

I think that this Mars Development Bank should be a branch of the Provisional Martian Govt, subject to cheques and balances...As for 50 M-years, thats a Terran century, if the land was stewarded properly within their land area than it should be considered that the land title be changed from lease to actual full ownership of the land and everything in it.  This will allow independant semi-autonomous city-states (even though I hate that term, though semi-autonomy alieviates some of the inherent danger of that)  This will give the people a better sense of freedom, as well as being a part of the great human endeavor, as it were...

#6
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Section 9. The Government may construct a Center Monument on the continent of Antarctica and exercise sovereignty over an area ten kilometers in radius,

I like this, its a great lithmus test for the efficiency and effectiveness of this type of Govt.  As well as keeping the Martians in touch with Earth without being ruled by them when people make that voyage, A Martian embassy settlement on Earth in terrain familiar to Martians, as it were...

#7
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Section 10. The flag of this Government shall consist of three vertical stripes. The stripe at the hoist end of the flag shall be red, the central stripe shall be green, and the final stripe shall be blue. The hoist or flag width shall be two-thirds of the fly or flag length and the width of each stripe shall be one-third of the flag length.

I think a Martian Flag should be left out of the constitution, and any settlement should be allowed to fly its own flag, and not be forced to lower its flag below the flag of the Provisional govt...Gives people more sense of freedom from controlling forces...

#8
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Section 11. Weapons shall not be transported to Mars. Parliament may adopt statutes that regulate the manufacture and possession of weapons

This is the biggest point of controversy in this document...Ok people, especially Americans, will want their guns, however, even when used in self defense a leathal weapon may miss or penetrate straight through a target and compromise a structure, in effect one bullet can kill a settlement of 100,000 people...Weapons produced on Mars should perhaps be limited to short range stun guns, although no pepper spray or mace, as that, over time, will begin to contaminate air filtration systems...If weapons must be there let them be handheld melee or stun type weapons...

#9
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BIG POINT...There is no section regarding the environmental impact of settlements, many settlers and scientists are going to want to keep the world as pristine as possible to reduce the effect of contamination in the search for past or current indiginous life on Mars, as well as those who want the world to stay like it is right now...An environmental court independant of terran influence must also be established and incorporated as a branch of the provisional Govt.

#10
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Draft Ordinances for the Voters of Port Zubrin

The Ambassador of the Terrestrial Embassy of the Provisional Government of Mars issued a Settlement Charter to John Doe, Jane Roe, and others on [insert date];

Once again I think it imperative that it not be the Terran embassies in control of Land charters, It should be the Provincial govt. itself or the "Mars Development Bank" hypothetical branch of Govt

I look forward to some feedback on this, I know I have left out some important things like the implications of the rich buying up the richest land and the like, however I think its a good start....

Your friendly neighborhood martian
-Matt

Well, I really don't think Areoforming has been nailed down into a hard concept, however here is my take on the concept

Lets say that 10 or so settlements have been established, each consisting of ~100,000 people.  Of course large scale manufacturing of all sorts of things has been well underway.
These processes do, through industrialization, produce heat and waste gasses that will inevitably be released into the atmosphere, thereby thickening it and causing warming.
Perhaps I should have been more careful in choosing the term "industrial methods."  I should have said something to the effect "highly energetic and potentially destructive methods of forcing global warming"
I suppose Areoforming could be (and I stress "could") nailed down to this, allowing the planet to react to the presence of life and allowing ourselves to react to being present on Mars.
I'm not necessarily against engineering organisms that can live on Mars as-is today, in fact I'm for it, I just don't want to see permafrost resevoirs melted by themonuclear charges and great KSR "moholes" being dug into the surface.
The only thing we have to do as planetary engineers is warm up the planet.  Maybe this can be done by blatently designing our industrial processes to release super-greenhouse gasses, or maybe black dust on the poles to absorb heat.
I suppose orbiting mirrors could work, but the orbital mechanics make that sort of thing extremely difficult (has anyone tried to figure that out using hypothetical values?)
All in all, I'm for a Mars that is habitable, however, unniquely Mars, including the biomes and lifeforms that will populate it.
I hope that 10 million years after terran life is introduced there, it will be so different from their ancestors that it could be said that Mars has a self sustaining evolving ecology, that is not analogous to Terra's...

FOR MARS
-Matt

O'Neile colonies are inherently dangerous and will require materials technology that are probably a century or more away from realization.
You got your huge structure spinning around up there, and that means you got a lot of stresses in the superstructure.
It is far simpler, as well as taking far less resources to live on planets.
All that material for O'neil colonies needs to come from somwhere.  And if asteroids are to be used, you either need people who are willing to take the harsh radiation of space for the years it would take to tear apart an asteroid and rebuild it into a colony.  Or you need autonomous robot factories, which are, sad to say, probably veerrrryyy far away from reality. (not to mention that the lifting technology for putting things into orbit needs to begreatly improved before being able to launch factories into orbit, no matter where they are launched from, Earth, Luna, or Mars.
Now to address the point of maintaining ecologies inside these structures.  This will probably prove to be one of the last great skills humankind masters, the factors are simple to great, and for the most part, unknown.
Now what happens to a colony of 100,000 people 50,000 pets, and about an equal amount of livestock and the immense greenhouse farms, when you start losing efficiency in your recycling systems.  You rapidly find your population starving, or worse, running out of water and air.
The planets and moons of this system are there, let us put them to good use.  Maybe we'll change over time, and learn to do all these things that will make your space colonies possible, but for now, Mars beckons.
Besides, why deny ourselves the privalidge of seeing how life can develop by limiting it only to our needs and aethetics in the necessarily strict ecologies of O'Neile space colonies.
The only real reasons I can see for not terraforming Mars is to preserve the landscape to learn the history of our solar system and to keep contamination from ruining the possible finds of indiginous life or fossil life...

FOR MARS...
-Matt