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The best thing I can say about a lifting body spacecraft is that it can bring its crew back home with minimal reentry forces. That being said, you pay a huge weight penalty for that luxury. It's also possible to do a semi-lifting re-entry with a capsule, mitigating the lifting body's benefits.
An HL-20 type design will be needed for orbital space tourism, but a capsule will be fine for professional astronauts who are in peak physical condition and are able to handle reentry stresses. It's also the most efficient vehicle for travel beyond low earth orbit.
The biggest obstacle towards fielding a lifting body is the low-speed handling problem. To my knowledge, ths has never been solved. Even the X-38 parafoil landing would have been tricky at best. I've given thought to simple swing wings, or perhaps fins that would fold out to become wings at low speed. Both of these options add dead weight, and the folding fins create another challenge for the TPS.
Perhaps John Becker was right when when he said that the benefits of lifting bodies are exaggerated, and winged vehicles are superior.
I think it is also rumored that Kistler is run by ex-NASA people... who generally stick together.
I believe that one of Kistler's old managers was the late George Mueller, who was an associate administrator for Apollo. So there are clearly NASA ties to Kistler. But there also exists a point where NASA will pull the plug on pie-in-the-sky projects. After all, NASA aborted the X-33 and X-34, especially after it became clear that X-33 would never lead to realistic shuttle replacement.
NASA really does want to use Kistler for Alternative Access to Station (if that term is still in use.) But it does have other options if only it is ready to allow for competition. I'm sure Elon Musk would offer his Falcon V as a contender. Gary Hudson of HMX (an RLV advocate whose ideas sometimes bordered on fantasy) proposed a reusable vehicle (not unlike Kistler stage 2) launched by a surplus Titan II. A solution to the ISS downmass problem is in sight; it's just up to NASA to stop mismanaging this effort.
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/rocketsc … tml]Falcon I structural testing
Now the inaugural launch is scheduled for late summer.
Those turnaround requirements sound mighty challenging. My guess is that they'll never have to face that challenge; nobody will be willing to pump $500 million into these guys.
The smaller the RLV payload, the more economic sense it makes. That's why the RLV startups got so excited about Iridium, because it would put up a constellation of many small satellites. The launch frequency determines whether a launch vehicle should be expendable, partially-reusable, or fully reusable.
The original DC-X business model was a work of genius. SDIO needed to put thousands of tiny "Brilliant Pebbles" interceptors in space, so they wanted McDonnell Douglas to build them a vehicle that would launch an interceptor, return to earth, and be ready to fly again within days instead of months.
If our industry is bold enough, they will catch on. They will build a 25 MT RLV, make it able to turn around in two weeks or less, and make the moon cheap and accessable.
Do we want lunar exploration to be sustainable? If so, the elements of the moon ship should be sized for flight on an RLV. This scenario actually favors the four-launch method of going to the moon and back.
It will be a while before an RLV is developed, unless private industry tosses a lot of funding and effort at the problem. But judging by past studies, an RLV will carry a payload in the 20-25 MT range. According to David Urie in "The Space Review," the original purpose of VentureStar was to replace the Titan IV (not the shuttle.)
Even Robert Zubrin examined the possibility of doing a Mars mission using RLV's. It envisioned 40 or more launches to loft the spacecraft elements and the fuel. Yes, it's impractical. Yet at this stage in our technolgical development, it's not possible to build a heavy-lift RLV. Maybe we could have reusable boosters on an ELV, but not a true heavy-lift RLV.
Roll back the clock to 1996 and see that Zubrin also proposed a six-launch mission called Athena that would fly by Mars and allow humans to operate Mars rovers in real time. There was a time in the past when Zubrin was a realist.
My point is that, while HLLV is the quickest and easiest way of getting back to the moon, an EELV-based mission has more potental to be sustained over the long term. If an RLV comes along, it could launch the CEV and EDS in two launches. Lunar oxygen would enable a reusable lander, although another two RLV launches would be needed for periodic deliveries of hydrogen to the moon.
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/rocketsc … .html]Pres. Bush cancels Shuttle
I almost got excited until I got to the second paragraph and realized it was a joke. SpaceDaily almost got my hopes up.
Does anybody out here agree with me that serious news services should refrain from these kinds of April Fools' jokes?
Frankly--we haven't seen that Delta IV can put 20 tons in LEO yet.
Nonsense. The dummy payload did achieve orbit, just that it was highly elliptical (about 10,000 mi too low at perigee.) I admit that this argument is open to nit-picking (the dummy sat wasn't 20 MT, the orbit wasn't a "low" earth orbit, etc.) The point is that Delta IV Heavy is a capable replacement for the Titan IV, and a fix for the cavitation problem will probably be minor.
When the next DSP is launched, Delta IV Heavy will be vindicated. We can only hope that an Atlas V Heavy is in the works.
One obstacle to making an HLLV with one engine per stage is the difficulty of making a single engine that's big enough to lift the weight of the rocket. Imagine building an engine that can putout six million pounds of thrust for an HLLV.
There seems to be an optimal number of engines for any given vehicle. Most aircraft are designed to survive a single engine failure; that's why almost all passenger planes (with the exception of the massive A380, which falls under the same category as my first paragraph) have only two engines. That's also why the single-engine F-16 is nicknamed "the lawn dart."
The exorbitant number of engines on the N1 obviously argues against engine-out. I tend to think that 5 engines per stage is an optimal number. If each engine has a statistical failure risk of 2% or so, we have to weigh the benefits of single engine-out capabilities versus the added risk of failure.
That remains to be seen. I still need less engines, and wheteher you like engine-out or not, SDV will have it.
No it won't. If you lose one of the SRBs during acent, then the mission is a failure. If the crew is riding on the side of the SDV, then they are probobly going to all die too.
It would be a repeat of Challenger.
Neither SDV nor a heavy EELV are truly capable of engine-out flight. You could lose an SDV main engine in certain flight regimes and survive, but an SRB problem is fatal, the odds of escape are zilch (unless the vehicle is rebuilt as an in-line launcher,) and some engine failures would also be fatal.
Now the Saturn V was a real engine-out vehicle. Stage 1 and Stage 2 were both capable of losing an engine and continuing on. This came in handy during Apollo 13 when Stage 2 lost an engine.
If money was no object, a Saturn V-inspired clean-sheet rocket would be ideal. The J-2 and J-2S engines could even be put back into production. The F-1 should probably be replaced by a modern, clean-sheet engine that has a higher chamber pressure, better Isp, and doesn't use asbestos.
At this point, even Homer Hickam (of "Rocket Boys" / "October Sky" fame) is advocating a quick end to the shuttle program and a new emphasis on going back to the moon. Presumably this means he opposes a Hubble servicing mission too.
The irony is that in the immediate aftermath of Columbia's loss, Hickam believed the shuttle should be flown until ISS was completed, then replaced with OSP.
Michael Griffin will undoubtedly feel a lot of pressure from various sectors to restore Hubble SM4. He's new to the job and Hubble's supporters think they can mold him like a lump of clay. At the same time, the White House budget office can overrule an SM4 restoration by denying NASA the funds for the mission. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, but unless Griffin restores a robotic servicing mission, Hubble is toast.
(Personally, I'd like to see a robot fix Hubble's gyros and batteries, if only to push the state-of-the-art in robotics. Any new Hubble instruments should have to wait for the Hubble Origins Probe.)
That was the case for the original Atlas I/II/III, and still applies to the Centaur 2nd stage. It does not apply to the Atlas V.
Modifying the EELV launch facilities for crews shouldn't be a huge expense, since the escape tower would provide the emergency egress function just like Soyuz.
I was referring to the launch tower, not the escape tower on the top of the capsule. The launh tower will need to be redone for astronauts, so they can ride the elevator up to their capsule, get strapped inside, and quickly zip-line away if the mission is aborted on the pad.
Cull "The Army," don't kill it.
People who worked on the orbiter could easily be reassigned to either the CEV or the new elements that would be going into SDV. People who worked with systems like ailerons and landing gear will probably be cut, while propulsion and life support would largely stay.
The problem is one of automation. The shuttle facilities are very man-intensive; EELV operations are more streamlined because robots are doing many of the functions that are done with people on the shuttle. Starting with 60's era Apollo-shuttle facilities is a disadvantage in this important aspect.
If any of the prime contractors really wants to do an SDV, they should have to put forward some revolutionary ideas for streamlining the manufacturing and processing of the vehicle.
When looking at SDV and EELV cost, it's important to note the following:
Right now, NASA is paying over $3 bil per year for the shuttle program. NASA has only paid for a few EELV launches because they fly so infrequently, and usually with commercial or military payloads.
NASA has three options for VSE: all-SDV, SDV + EELV, and all-EELV. The first scenario would force NASA to add to its operations cost for CEV capsule operations. SDV + EELV forces NASA to add this CEV operations cost AND increase its EELV buys substantially. The third scenario adds CEV costs and makes NASA buy more EELV's, but shuttle costs vanish.
Under this logic, all-SDV makes the most sense in my mind. But there's a catch: Most engineers (myself included) would not trust the manned CEV on a traditional SDV design. You would want to instead build an in-line SDV with the CEV on top. This becomes prohibitively expensive as commonality with the old ET is lost.
If all-SDV is off the table, we are left with the choice of SDV + EELV or EELV-only. We've acknowledged the difficulties of EELV-only already. For SDV + EELV to work, however, NASA MUST find a way to cut the shuttle fixed launch costs so it can afford the extra EELV launch that is required for each manned CEV.
Another thing worth considering is the pad and tower modifications needed to put a manned CEV on an EELV. They will need crew access gantries, elevators, escape baskets, and the other niceties that go into crew egress.
Those who favor EELV only, are you calling Michael Griffin out?
Forget Robert Zubrin (who is easy enough to attack personally)
Ad Astra, GCNRevenger, is Michael Griffin wrong?
Michael Griffin, in his previous position, was perfectly in his capacity to call for an HLLV. Now that he's going to be running NASA, he has a budget to worry about and a Congress that he must continually appease.
I acknowledge that the QQ method would be far more difficult than direct landings and surface rendezvous. But if congressional bean counters take the HLLV option off the table, I would rather have QQ than no moon mission at all. And Congress isn't the only bad guy here. If NASA and Boeing and LockMart want to build an SDV, they must learn to control costs so the US taxpayer can afford it.
My big beef with Robert Zubrin is the intellectual dishonesty he's using to advocate his big-booster position. He doesn't need to resort to trickery to lure me into the big-booster camp; why is he trying to pull the wool over the eyes of people who can't cut through his flimsy polemic? Either he's being dishonest with us or he's not a particularly good engineer, and I happen to believe the former.
I just listened to a presentation from a Scaled Compostes employee; he says that while Burt Rutan is dreaming about orbital spaceflight, he has no solution to the problem, and he is not in the running for the Bigelow prize.
I'm not ADVOCATING an all-EELV approach, I'm just saying that it's doable. I would like us to get an HLLV, and if the budget can support an SDV, EELV's, and flights to the moon, I'm all for the SDV. If the budget won't allow it, all-EELV is the way it has to be.
I don't expect lunar flights by 2015 IF the manned CEV does not fly until 2014. That being said, the Spiral 1 CEV timetable could be sped up, dependent on funding. Realistically, I think 2018 is a reasonable date for human lunar return.
My vision of the moon does include use of lunar oxygen, but it is a capability that is built upon with successive missions rather than something we rely on for the initial missions. I also think lunar oxygen is irrelevant to Mars exploration because of the delta-V required to transport it.
My motivations for exploring the moon (in order of importance,) are:
1) Lunar solar power
2) Rare element / mineral mining
3) Science (radio telescope, early solar system remnants, etc)
4) Space tourism
I briefly read Zubrin's trio and I've found many problems. His analysis is very simplistic and he prematurely rules out the possibility that "QQ" would reliably work.
It would be silly to assume you could launch four heavy EELV's in a month. The way to get around this is an Apollo-like solution: put storable propellants in the lander. Apollo used N2O4 and MMH; I prefer H2O2 and kerosene because it's less nasty to work with. You could keep the LSAM in lunar orbit (which according to Zubrin is unstable) for another month while waiting for the CEV to come.
QQ will avoid an Apollo 13 style accident. I've heard that NASA is going solar instead of fuel cells for the spaceship's power system for this very reason. Further, you can avoid docking the LSAM "lifeboat" with the CEV for the same reason that Mars Direct doesn't have a separate mothership and lander: just build redundant systems into the ship. The lifeboat was a redundant system. You don't need a lifeboat to duplicate all of the CEV's functions as long as you have redundant systems that are spaced far enough apart, so a common problem doesn't disable the backups.
Even if one in four missions fails, it doesn't mean loss of crew. There are more failure scenarios where the crew is saved than scenarios where the crew is killed. The mission could be scrubbed before EDS 1 pushes the LSAM to the moon. The LSAM or either EDS could blow up on the pad. Even if the CEV booster blew up, an escape system could save the crew.
I found it interesting that Zubrin's CEV would be so light (12 MT) and his LSAM so heavy. The Grumman engineers of the 60's did a marvelous job making the LEM as flimsy as possible to save weight in the near-weightless environment. This time around, NASA is looking at designs that are even more austere, like open cockpits.
There isn't enough space here to totally deconstruct Zubrin, but the point is that we can do the moon without an HLLV or direct landing. Perhaps the plan should be to get to the moon initially by QQ in the 2015-2020 time frame, then develop a new HLLV in time for Mars by 2030.
I am unclear why a vehicle that can lift 45 metric tons would be sufficient for the moon and insufficient for mars. It takes more delta V to for from earth to the moon, then it does from earth to Mars.
The reason for this is because you can potentially aerocapture into Mars orbit, saving yourself the propulsive delta-V it would otherwise take for Mars orbit capture.
The total delta-V is higher for a trip to Mars, it's just that you don't need to burn fuel to make up the entire delta-V budget. At this point I'm reluctant to trust aerocapture, as it's never been tried before. If unmanned probes can successfully demonstrate it, I'd be more than happy to consider it for a manned Mars flight.
I'm in total agreement with BWhite. We may be able to avoid an HLLV for the lunar return but it's a must for Mars. Because we're delaying Mars beyond 2030, maybe we'll find the money to develop and build a clean-sheet HLLV.
The other obstacle I forsee in getting to Mars is what Robert Zubrin calls "the lunar siren." Unlike Zubrin, I believe there is much to be gained from going to the moon. But Mars is also a priority once the technology is mature enough for humans to go safely.
The key will be a smooth transition from our lunar exporation program to Mars exploration. The easiest way to do this, in my view, is to involve private enterprise in the lunar retrn from the start. The moon base operation will be gradually privatized as NASA gears up for Mars. If this doesn't happen, we will have to either abandon the moon, or stick with the moon and forget about Mars.
If we can't use the EELV's, what can we we use to launch the CEV?
At this point we have no realistic alternatives. Developing a new booster with man-rating in mind from the getgo will take more years and more billions. An SRB-based rocket would be even more unsafe than the EELV's, lacking first-stage thrust termination and having even higher accelerations than the EELV's.
If the NASA astronaut office wants a safer vehicle, they should learn to accept EELV + CEV for what it is, as it will certainly be safer than the shuttle monstrosity.
I have been hearing many complaints (especially on NASAwatch.com) about the de-funding of aeronautics research at NASA. Granted,most of the negative comments come from NASA's aeronautics-related employees who stand to lose big from the downsizing. I happen to have mixed feelings about it.
On one hand, it's sad to see historic facilities like Ames and Langley being put on the chopping block, with the possibility that they could totally disappear in the near future. There is plenty of room for aeronautics research and America's leadership in this field is being challenged. NASA needs to take the lead.
At the same time, the US has a robust aviation industry that is capable of conducting its own research. Must taxpayer dollars be used for research that will directly benefit the "three stooges" of the aerospace industry?
I believe the solution is for NASA to reduce its aeronautics workforce but pursue more cooperative research with the industry that relies on private funding. There is a need for a National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics again, to symbolically emphasize our commitment to aeronautics even as we pursue the Vision for Space Exploration. NACA and the industry should cooperate on the aeronautical advances that will bring about scramjets and more efficient airliners.
I don't expect any retribution for the sins of the past in Michael Griffin's NASA. The problems had much to do with the abrasive management style of Dan Goldin.
Although Goldin got results, he was widely despised by his agency. Say what you will about Sean O'Keefe, he certainly changed the tone and improved morale in the agency. Most of the Goldin people who wronged Michael Griffin and his teammates probably followed Goldin out the door in late 2001.
I got a native Russian speaker to translate the Kliper schematics.