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#101 Re: Meta New Mars » Steve Stewart Postings » 2023-05-06 23:15:37
Here is a link to my proposal Storing Energy, Introducing a "Cell", and a Soil Factory on Mars
Below is the index for that proposal.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Storing Energy, Introducing a "Cell", and a Soil Factory on Mars
Copyright 2023 by Steve Stewart
INDEX
The importance of Storing Energy on Mars . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
Introduction to the ClearEdge5(c) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Figure 3.1 Image from a sales brochure of the Clear Edge 5(c)
Figure 3.2 Diagram of internal workings of a CE5
The "Methane-Oxygen Cycle" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Figure 4.1 The Methane-Oxygen Cycle
Opening the Loop . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Figure 5.1 Open loop version of the Methane-Oxygen Cycle
Open loop Methane-Oxygen Cycle
Review
My Proposal of a "Cell" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
Figure 6.1 Functional view of a Cell
Figure 6.2 Example of a composter
The Air in a Cell . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Figure 7.1 Example of how breathing apparatus might look
Removing Oxygen from the Air
Figure 7.2 Methane-Oxygen Cycle open loop oxygen and water
Different view of the same process
Figure 7.3 Different version of a Cell's functional diagram
Harvesting Carbon and a Martian Soil Factory . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
(Part 1 of 2)
Harvesting carbon from the Martian atmosphere
Figure 8.1 Example of natures "capture and hold" system
The importance of carbon
Building a soil factory on Mars
Harvesting Carbon and a Martian Soil Factory . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
(Part 2 of 2)
Hydroponics vs Soil
Figure 9.1 List of recommended books
How the Martian Atmosphere is Brought into a Cell . . . . . . . . . . . 10
The Martian
How vacuum pumps work
Figure 10.1 Principle of operation for a vacuum pump
Figure 10.2 Large vacuum pump
Burning methane cleans the air in a Cell
Other ways of cleaning the air
Figure 10.3 Advertisement for an HVAC ultra-violet light
Figure 10.4 Example of an ultra-violet light in HVAC systems
Cleaning the air with plants
How to build a Dehumidifier that Doesn't have any Moving Parts. . . . 11
Figure 11.1 Functional diagram of a dehumidifier
Figure 11.2 Personal photos taken at Pioneer Village
Figure 11.3 Image of Icy-Ball refrigerator
Figure 11.4 List of RV refrigerators
Figure 11.5 List of absorption refrigerators for the home
Figure 11.6 Wikipedia image of the nitrogen cycle
Figure 11.7 Diagram of absorption refrigerator cooling cycle
Figure 11.8 YouTube Video: IcyBall & Parabolic Mirror
The Air Pressure Control System. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
Figure 12.1 Tank that separates CO2 from the other gases
Figure 12.2 Refrigerant tank with two valves.
Monitoring the level of liquid CO2
Figure 12.3 Example of refrigerant scales.
Normal operation of the Air Pressure Control System
Martian Resources Out of Thin Air . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
Harvesting nitrogen from the air
Uses for other gases
Figure 13.1 Example of a fractional distillation machine
Uses for CO2
How Much Oxygen Does a Cell Produce? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
Figure 14.1 Floor plan of a Cell
Figure 14.2 Floor plan of a Cell with dimensions (English units)
Figure 14.3 Floor plan of a Cell with dimensions (Metric units)
Figure 14.4 3D cutaway view of the Cell described
Figure 14.5 Amount of oxygen produced by a Cell
How much methane does a Cell require?
Figure 14.6 Cubic meter of methane and oxygen
Figure 14.7 One cubic meter of methane reacts with oxygen
If the methane were burned, how much heat would be produced?
Figure 14.8 Diagram of a burner in a Cell
If all the methane were used in a CE5, how much electricity/heat?
Figure 14.9 Diagram of a CE5 in a Cell
Amount of oxygen stored is always equal to the amount produced by a Cell
Figure 14.10 A Cell with 13,000 liters of oxygen to be removed
Metrics in a Cell . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15
Metric #1: Oxygen created per unit of volume
Metric #2: Ratio of area of plants to area of building
Figure 15.1 Cell with 12 trays of plants
Figure 15.2 Cell with 6 trays of plants
Metric #3: Percentage of soil per unit of volume
Figure 15.3 Cell with 6 trays of plants
Metric #4: Amount of food produced per unit of volume
Metric #5: ACH - Air Changes per Hour
Conclusion
Summary . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .16
Review of energy storage
Other ways of storing energy
Types of plants
Composting on Mars
Figure 16.1 Example of a composter
Composting enables recycling human waste
Figure 16.2 Screen capture of Gabe Browns video
Closing the loop
Harvest rotation
Figure 16.3 Cell with 6 trays of plants
Figure 16.4 Example of a "Dual-Cell"
Growing grain crops on Mars
Figure 16.5 Screen capture of Gabe Browns video
Features of a Cell
Figure 16.6 Cell with Discretionary Space
A Cell is compatible with other proposals, including the Moon
Figure 16.7 Another view of proposed "Ice House"
Figure 16.8 Proposal displayed in London Nov 2016
Edited 9/24/2023 Added links to index
#102 Life support systems » Proposal: Storing Energy, Introducing a "Cell", a Soil Factory on Mars » 2023-05-06 23:13:47
- Steve Stewart
- Replies: 29
Storing Energy, Introducing a "Cell", and a Soil Factory on Mars
Copyright 2023, 2024, 2025 by Steve Stewart
Link to this proposal:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10501
INDEX
Proposal For a Base, Not Colony, on Mars . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
The importance of Storing Energy on Mars . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
Figure 3.1 Image from a sales brochure of the Clear Edge 5(c)
Figure 3.2 Diagram of internal workings of a CE5
The "Methane-Oxygen Cycle" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
Figure 4.1 The Methane-Oxygen Cycle
Opening the Loop . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
Figure 5.1 Open loop version of the Methane-Oxygen Cycle
Open loop Methane-Oxygen Cycle
Review
My Proposal of a "Cell" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
Figure 6.1 Functional view of a Cell
Figure 6.2 Example of a composter
The Air in a Cell . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
Figure 7.1 Example of how breathing apparatus might look
Figure 7.2 Image from Dr. Chris McKay - Terraforming Mars
Removing Oxygen from the Air
Figure 7.3 Methane-Oxygen Cycle open loop oxygen and water
Different view of the same process
Figure 7.4 Different version of a Cell's functional diagram
Burning methane in a Cell
1) Carbon monoxide (CO)
2) Nitrogen dioxide (NO2)
3) Impurities in natural gas
Harvesting Carbon and a Martian Soil Factory . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
(Part 1 of 2)
Harvesting carbon from the Martian atmosphere
Figure 8.1 Example of natures "capture and hold" system
The importance of carbon
Note: Cells produce soil
Harvesting Carbon and a Martian Soil Factory . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
(Part 2 of 2)
Hydroponics vs Soil
Figure 9.1 List of recommended books
Why "Turning Mars Green" will not work
How the Martian Atmosphere is Brought into a Cell . . . . . . . . . . . 10
How much nitrogen comes in with Cheat?
Figure 10.1 Example of a fractional distillation machine
Figure 10.2 Image from Marspedia
The Martian
How vacuum pumps work
Figure 10.3 Principle of operation for a vacuum pump
Figure 10.4 Large vacuum pump
Burning methane cleans the air in a Cell
Other ways of cleaning the air
Figure 10.5 Advertisement for an HVAC ultra-violet light
Figure 10.6 Example of an ultra-violet light in HVAC systems
Cleaning the air with plants
How to build a Dehumidifier that Doesn't have any Moving Parts. . . . 11
Figure 11.1 Functional diagram of a dehumidifier
Figure 11.2 Personal photos taken at Pioneer Village
Figure 11.3 Image of Icy-Ball refrigerator
Figure 11.4 List of RV refrigerators
Figure 11.5 List of absorption refrigerators for the home
Figure 11.6 Wikipedia image of the nitrogen cycle
Figure 11.7 Diagram of absorption refrigerator cooling cycle
Figure 11.8 YouTube Video: IcyBall & Parabolic Mirror
The Air Pressure Control System. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
Figure 12.1 Tank that separates CO2 from the other gases
Figure 12.2 Refrigerant tank with two valves.
Monitoring the level of liquid CO2
Figure 12.3 Example of refrigerant scales.
The carbon cycle problem
Figure 12.4 Image from presentation by Bryce Myer
Normal operation of the Air Pressure Control System
Graphical description
Figure 12.5 Percentage of gases in a Cell
Figure 12.6 When level of filler gas goes up CO2 goes down
Figure 12.7 When level of CO2 goes up O2 goes down
Figure 12.8 Net result of increasing filler gas
Summary
Less common operation of the Air Pressure Control System
Martian Resources Out of Thin Air . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
Harvesting nitrogen from the air
Uses for other gases
Figure 13.1 Example of a fractional distillation machine
Uses for CO2
How Much Oxygen Does a Cell Produce? . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
Figure 14.1 Floor plan of a Cell
Figure 14.2 Floor plan of a Cell with dimensions (English units)
Figure 14.3 Floor plan of a Cell with dimensions (Metric units)
Figure 14.4 3D cutaway view of the Cell described
How much methane does a Cell require?
Figure 14.6 Cubic meter of methane and oxygen
Figure 14.7 One cubic meter of methane reacts with oxygen
If the methane were burned, how much heat would be produced?
Figure 14.8 Diagram of a burner in a Cell
If all the methane were used in a CE5, how much electricity/heat?
Figure 14.9 Diagram of a CE5 in a Cell
Note: the amount of oxygen stored is always equal to the amount produced by a Cell
Figure 14.10 A Cell with 13,000 liters of oxygen to be removed
Another thing to note
Metrics in a Cell . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .15
Metric #1: Oxygen created per unit of volume
Metric #2: Ratio of area of plants to area of building
Figure 15.1 Cell with 12 trays of plants
Figure 15.2 Cell with 6 trays of plants
Metric #3: Percentage of soil per unit of volume
Figure 15.3 Cell with 6 trays of plants
Metric #4: Amount of food produced per unit of volume
Metric #5: ACH - Air Changes per Hour
Conclusion to metrics
Summary . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .16
Review of energy storage
Other ways of storing energy
Types of plants
Composting on Mars
Figure 16.1 Example of a composter
Composting enables recycling human waste
Figure 16.2 Screen capture of Gabe Browns video
Closing the loop
Harvest rotation
Figure 16.3 Cell with 6 trays of plants
Figure 16.4 Example of a "Dual-Cell"
Grain crops on Mars
Figure 16.5 Screen capture of Gabe Browns video
Features of a Cell
Figure 16.6 Cell with Discretionary Space
A Cell is compatible with other proposals, including the Moon
Figure 16.7 Another view of proposed "Ice House"
Figure 16.8 Proposal displayed in London Nov 2016
Link to this proposal:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=10501
tags
#spacesettlement #SpaceX #marsexploration #MarsSociety #Mars
#103 Re: Life support systems » Caves as Initial Footholds on Mars » 2023-04-30 05:13:30
Tahanson #65
Thanks for the search terms. I never think to use them.
SpaceNut #64
I think IR (infrared) barriers do work. The first time I bought a house it had infrared barriers and my utility bills were always low, and I don't think my furnace was all that efficient.
The link I mentioned (Radiant Barriers - US Department of Energy) in post#63 pointed out that a radiant barrier in the attic would make the attic cooler in both the summer and winter. In the summer that is desirable, but in the winter it would be a bit of a disadvantage because it would reflect heat (infrared rays) from the sun and would keep the attic cooler. I don't think that's much of a disadvantage as long as the attic is well insulated.
Heat flow is always proportional to temperature difference. That is, the greater the temperature difference between two objects, the greater the heat flow from the warmer object to the cooler object. This is true regardless of the type of heat flow (conduction, convection, or infrared) and regardless of the amount of insulation between the two objects. In the winter, more heat will be transferred from the living area to the attic when there is a larger temperature difference between the two (A cooler attic will receive more heat from the living area than a warm attic). Good insulation will reduce the amount of heat loss, but it still will be more with a larger temperature difference than with a smaller temperature difference. Again, I think the loss is minimal as long as the attic is well insulated.
#104 Re: Life support systems » Caves as Initial Footholds on Mars » 2023-04-29 10:37:49
When building an underground habitat on Mars it would be helpful to use a reflective barrier on the interior that reflects both light and heat. Below is an example of a radiant heat barrier that can be used in an attic, walls, or crawl space of a home. The foil liner reflects infrared rays (heat). When used on a home on Earth, it reflects heat back inside the house in the winter.
There are 3 ways in which heat can be transferred: Conduction, convection, and radiation. Conduction is when a substance conducts heat. Convection is heat transfer via the movement of air. The third method is by radiance.
When the interior of a house is warm in the winter, all of the contents in the house radiate heat in the form of infrared rays. Unless the house has a radiant barrier, the heat will go through the insulated walls/ceiling in the form of infrared rays. In the summer, when the house needs to be cooled, heat from the outside will come inside via infrared rays, increasing cooling costs. Hence the need for a radiant barrier like the one shown above. On Mars, habitats will need to be heated year round. Unless they have a radiant barrier in addition to insulation, they will lose radiant heat.
Radiant Barriers - US Department of Energy
Radiant Barriers by LP TechShield
On Earth, houses are often insulated with fiberglass. The insulation slows down the conduction of heat. Glass by itself is not a good insulator. However a fine glass fiber, with air between the fibers slows down the conduction of heat. This is because heat has a difficult time transferring across boundaries. When fiberglass insulation is used in a building, a single fiber of glass will conduct heat rather well. Heat is then transferred to the air surrounding the fiber. This creates a "glass-to-air" boundary. Boundaries like this create resistance to the flow of heat.
After a sliver of air between fibers transfers heat from one fiber to another, the heat must cross another (glass-to-air) boundary. Then from air-to-glass again, then glass-to-air, then air-to-glass, and so on. Each transfer of heat from one substance to another is a boundary. The more strands of glass fiber that are separated by air, the more boundaries. More boundaries means more resistance to the conduction of heat.
I remember about 15-20 years ago when fiberglass insulation for a 4" wall was always R11. About 12 years ago I noticed it was R13. The higher R number (better insulation) was achieved by insulation manufacturers making insulation with smaller glass fibers, which creates more boundaries.
In order to get the most from fiberglass insulation, it's important that the insulation remain loose and "fluffed up". If the insulation is compressed, it destroys the boundaries which diminish its insulation properties.
I've known people who thought they could put 6" insulation into a 4" wall (wall built from 2x4's). They saw the higher R rating for 6" insulation and thought they could cram it into their 4" wall. I explained to them that if they squeezed 6" of insulation into a 4" wall it would squeeze out much of the air, eliminating many of the boundaries, which is how insulation works. If they shoved 6" of insulation into a 4" wall they would end up with very little resistance to the conduction of heat.
Fiberglass insulation not only reduces the conduction of heat, it also limits the movement of air (convection). However it does not reduce heat transfer from radiation. This is why there are products on the market like the one shown above, to reduce radiant heat loss. On Mars, coating the inside of a habitat with some type of foil, like the one shown above, would reduce radiant heat loss. The foil would also reflect light, which would make more efficient use of light, particularly in growing areas for plants.
Efficient use of light in a Martian habitat
Farmers are well aware that one form of waste is the waste of light. When growing crops, the idea is for as much sunlight as possible to shine on plants to produce crops. Any sunlight reaching the ground it is waste. In a Martian habitat, any light reaching a wall, ceiling, or floor, and is absorbed is waste.
This is why crop spacing is so important. If crops are spaced too far apart (too few seeds planted per acre), sunlight goes between the plants, reaches the ground, is absorbed and wasted. If crops are planted closer together (more seeds per acre), less, or no light is wasted. It only makes sense that if a farmer plants 5% more seeds he'll end up with 5% more plants, resulting in 5% more crops, and 5% more profit. This is only true to a point, until all the sunlight is used.
Most field corn has 1 or 2 ears of corn per stalk. When corn is spaced farther apart, more stalks will have 2 ears. Even though each stalk has more ears, the farmer will end up with less corn due to having fewer plants.
If corn is spaced too close together, many stalks will end up with 1 small ear, due to not enough light. Even though they have more plants, they'll end up with less corn because the stalks only have 1 ear and they are smaller. In this case farmers are buying more seed and are ending up with less corn. Here in Kansas, most farmers I know plant about 28,000 seeds per acre for corn. Planters have adjustments on them to adjust the number of seeds planted per acre.
Of course there are many other variables in addition to crop spacing, such as weather (temperature), soil condition, amount of rainfall, etc. More plants require more water and consume more nutrients from the soil.
On Earth and on Mars, seed spacing is important for all plants, not just corn. On Mars, plants will need to be spaced properly for maximum production. Seed spacing on Mars will be dependent on the amount of light available, along with the other factors just mentioned.
Farmers use seed flow monitors on their tractors to count the number of seeds being planted per acre in real time. Below are a couple of seed flow monitors manufactured by Sensor-1, a former employer of mine.
Below is a seed flow monitor by DICKEY-John. This type of seed flow monitor was first produced in the 1960's. Below that is a John Deere monitor, also manufactured by DICKEY-John. Each light represents one tube (one row) on the planter. The DICKEY-John monitor shown has 12 lights. It is made for a 12-row planter. The John Deere monitor shown has 8 lights and is for an 8-row planter.
When seeds fall through a tube on the planter it makes the corresponding light flash. A light that is not flashing means that a row is not planting (a tube on the planter is clogged, or something else is wrong). Without a seed flow monitor a farmer could end up planting a field of crops with one row missing.
All of the monitors shown have an alarm that sounds whenever a light isn't flashing (a row isn't planting). It's much like a smoke detector alarm. The DICKY-John monitor shown has an alarm in the bottom left corner. The John Deere monitor shown also has an alarm near the bottom left, and also has a red light (below the John Deere logo) that comes on when a row isn't planting.
How Far Apart Should You Plant Your Vegetables?
5 Reasons Why Proper Plant Spacing Is the Best Thing You Can Do for Your Garden
Proper Plant Spacing and Why it Matters
Why You’re Missing Out When You Don’t Monitor Every Run on the Drill!
If habitats on Mars were to use a radiant barrier like the one that was shown above, it would not only help insulate the habitat, it would also reduce the amount of light wasted. This is true in both living areas and areas used for growing plants, and is true in habitats above and below the surface. If a radiant barrier were not used, an underground habitat that was light in color (such as the one shown above in post#60) would help reflect more light, which would waste less light than an underground habitat that was dark in color.
#105 Re: Home improvements » Home Solar System to Achieve Energy Usage Offset » 2023-04-24 06:57:46
SpaceNut, I'm not sure what it is you're needing to calculate. If you're looking for BTU's needed per square foot of house, here is a climate map for the USA. This is just an estimate, it's dependent on how well a house is insulated.
Furnace Size Calculator: What Size Furnace Do I Need? (BTU Calculator)
https://learnmetrics.com/furnace-sizing-calculator/
#106 Re: Interplanetary transportation » SuperHeavy+Starship have the thermal energy of the Hiroshima bomb. » 2023-04-23 06:15:48
Here's some of the latest news on Starship. (Sunday AM 4.23.2023)
Here's what caused the SpaceX Starship explosion and how it's different for Florida
The article states:
"SpaceX did later confirm the rocket's breakup was triggered by FTS."
(Flight Termination System)
Elon Musk Sends Important Message About SpaceX
#107 Re: Unmanned probes » Ingenuity, Scouting Mars by Helicopter » 2023-04-23 04:49:19
Ingenuity just completed its 50th flight.
NASA Was Hoping for 5 Helicopter Flights on Mars. Ingenuity Just Completed its 50th!
From NASA.gov (with video)
NASA’s Ingenuity Mars Helicopter Completes 50th Flight
#108 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Technology Updates » 2023-04-23 04:35:47
Airbus has unveiled a space habitat called LOOP.
An article on Yahoo News states:
"At 26 feet wide (8 meters), LOOP is designed to fit into the fairing of the upcoming generation of superheavy launchers, such as SpaceX's Starship, and could thus be deployed with one launch and be habitable immediately after reaching orbit, Airbus said."
Airbus unveils futuristic space station concept (photos)
https://news.yahoo.com/airbus-unveils-f … 00488.html
Video by Airbus (40 sec)
https://www.airbus.com/en/airbus-loop
Habitat concept LOOP
"It builds on everything that has been learnt over the decades and fully exploits the potential of tomorrow’s technologies in order to best support humanity’s future in space: in low-Earth or lunar orbit, or on long-term missions to Mars."
Inside view of LOOP
"The Airbus LOOP is designed to make long-term stays in space comfortable and enjoyable for its inhabitants, while supporting efficient and sustainable operations at the same time,"
Centrifuge deck
"In its basic configuration, LOOP features a habitation deck, a science deck and a centrifuge deck producing artificial gravity, where inhabitants could receive temporary relief from zero-gravity conditions."
#109 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Technology Updates » 2023-04-12 09:48:35
This morning NASA unveiled a 1,700 square foot (160 square meters) Mars simulation habitat that will be used for "year-long experiments on Earth". The habitat is 3D printed and is located at NASA's research base in Houston Texas. The team of four volunteers, which have not yet been selected, will begin trails this summer.
News from phy.org
NASA unveils 'Mars' habitat for year-long experiments on Earth
YouTube Video
Nasa unveils ‘Mars’ habitat for year-long experiments on Earth
( 1 min 39 sec)
YouTube Video
NASA unveils 'Mars' habitat for year-long experiments on Earth
( 3 min 39 sec)
#110 Re: Unmanned probes » Ingenuity, Scouting Mars by Helicopter » 2023-04-07 12:14:47
This is a recent YouTube video about Ingenuity and Perseverance.
15 Months On Mars: Ingenuity Finds Eerie Spacecraft Wreckage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TGH3--21_g
#111 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Technology Updates » 2023-04-07 11:35:03
I saw on BGR News that there is a new interactive Martian mosaic.
Here is a link and an excerpt from the article:
BGR News
This interactive Martian mosaic from NASA is the coolest thing I’ve seen this year
BGR News
It’s really hard not to get excited about all the exploration humanity has conducted on Mars. Not only has NASA set up the Mars sample return, which promises to teach us more about the Martian surface itself, but now an interactive Martian mosaic lets us happily explore Mars in great detail.
The mosaic was created using images and data from NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. Caltech’s Bruce Murray Laboratory for Planetary Visualization created the mosaic. The mosaic comprises over 110,000 images of the Martian surface and can be accessed on the Murray Lab’s website.
...
By clicking buttons situated at the bottom of the tool, you can zip around the surface to the locations of iconic exploratory missions, like Perseverance’s trip through the Jezero Crater. You can even see the path the rover has followed as it explored the surface of the Red Planet.
When I went to the website I did the following screen capture of the interactive mosaic of Mars.
You can go to the mosaic at the link below:
Murray Lab's website
https://murray-lab.caltech.edu/CTX/V01/ … osaic.html
#112 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Electrolysis » 2023-02-17 19:55:41
This is an interesting article from BBC Top Gear about electrolysis.
Hydrogen fuels might have just got a huge leg-up
With current tech, electrolysis generally produces hydrogen at about 75 per cent efficiency. So to create a kilo of pure hydrogen fuel, which holds about 39.4kWh of energy, it takes 52.5kWh. By improving electrolysis efficiency to 95 per cent, that means it’ll only take 41.5kWh to generate a kilo of fuel. That’s a huge improvement over the old method of electrolysis, but also over the fossil-fuel-based hydrogen production methods, which are about 75 per cent efficient at best. And use fossil fuels, which we’re kind of trying to get away from these days.
If this tech works like its creators say it does, that means green hydrogen will be the cheapest and most efficient to produce. And because wind and solar power are now cheaper than fossil fuels (and only extending their lead), that means green hydrogen could soon be better economically as well as environmentally. Not to over-egg things, but this is huge news for billions of people. And yes, we’ll back that statement up before the article’s over.
...
So, petrol is ruinously expensive and not long for this world. Fossil-fuel hydrogen is as awful for the environment as you’d imagine from something that starts off as gas, oil or coal – and it’s getting costlier by the minute. Green hydrogen is environmentally friendly, will only get cheaper as green power costs continue to decrease and doesn’t require any extra expense for carbon capture or similar band-aids for bullet wounds. Hydrogen could finally be having its moment.
#113 Re: Not So Free Chat » China weather balloon or spy craft » 2023-02-17 19:42:35
This is an interesting article that was in Scientific America. I think it validates what Dr. GW Johnson said in post #31.
Why We’re Suddenly Spotting Spy Balloons
Just how many balloons are usually floating over the U.S., and who is keeping track of them?
At any given time, there could be hundreds or thousands of floating objects overhead—but the vast majority are innocuous. For instance, nearly 100 National Weather Service (NWS) sites release balloons twice a day to measure things like temperature and humidity.
...
“There’s probably at least 100 [large balloons] in the air, on any given day,” says Mick West, a writer and investigator of unidentified aerial phenomena, or UAPs.
Radar can detect all of these objects, in addition to the occasional bird, some clouds and the many mylar party balloons that go whizzing into the sky each year. But monitoring every little airborne speck would create too much instrument noise, making it difficult to pick out actual threats. Because of this, the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), a combined U.S.-Canada defense organization, uses algorithms to filter smaller objects out of radar readings.
If China has been sending balloons our way for so long, why are we only detecting them now?
It’s pretty simple: “Now that the U.S. military and the U.S. government are looking for them, we’re probably more likely to see them,” Machain points out.
...
Remember how NORAD’s radar detection system filters out smaller objects? Since the detection of the large surveillance balloon, the organization has been widening that filter to pick up signals such as those from the three balloons shot down this weekend. “Previously, they had things set up to filter out what they would describe as clutter on the radar,” West explains. “These newer ones are the result of a heightened sense of caution. (They) modified the algorithm that they use to determine whether something is of interest or not, and so things that have been there all along are now popping up for the first time.”
Here's another interesting article
Why the U.S. used missiles, not cheap bullets, to shoot down Chinese balloon, 3 unidentified objects
The unidentified floating octagon shot down over Lake Huron in upper Michigan required two Sidewinders, because the first one failed to detect the object, "did not fuse," and crashed "harmlessly" into Lake Huron, U.S. officials said Tuesday.
...
But "the military's ability to respond to balloons and similar craft is constrained by physics and the capabilities of current weapons," The Washington Post reports, and you can't really pop a giant balloon with gunfire at 40,000 feet.
"You can fill a balloon full of bullet holes, and it's going to stay at altitude," David Deptula, a retired Air Force lieutenant general and fighter pilot, tells the Post. The air pressure that high up doesn't allow helium to freely escape through small holes, even if fighter jets flying by at hundreds of miles per hour can riddle the near-stationary balloon with bullets. Canada figured that out the hard way in 1998, when it tried to bring down a giant runaway weather balloon launched from Saskatchewan to measure ozone levels, CBC News recalled right after the Chinese spy balloon incident. "Canadian CF-18 fighter jet pilots caught up with the balloon off the coast of Newfoundland and took aim, firing more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition at it. But the balloon survived the assault, soldiering on over the North Atlantic," floating above British, Norwegian, and Russian airspace before finally crashing in Finland.
The British press roasted Canada's Air Force pilots for failing to pop the rogue balloon, but then British and U.S. pilots also tried to shoot it down and failed.
#114 Re: Meta New Mars » GW Johnson Postings and @Exrocketman1 YouTube videos » 2023-01-22 18:09:42
GW Johnson,
Sorry to hear about your fall. Hope you get better soon.
#115 Re: Life support systems » Space Plant Pathology » 2023-01-22 08:16:22
Hello jfenciso and welcome back to the forum. I had a room-mate at Kansas State that received a degree in agronomy. Are you still in school? I see your background as being of great value on Mars. Nice to have you back.
-Steve
#116 Re: Terraformation » Deep Asteroid Crater Habitat Proposal for Mars » 2023-01-15 09:50:24
PhotonBytes welcome to the forum. I checked out your web-site as well as the posts here, your ideas look interesting. I look forward to visiting with you in the future.
#117 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Frozen Food Preservation at 50 Kelvin » 2023-01-08 10:08:00
Caliban #4
One way of avoiding famine caused by system failure, is to have several years worth of staple food stored. The cold and dry environment of Mars should make that relatively easy to achieve.
Agreed. It would seem if food were frozen using "Isochoric freezing" at describe by Science Friday in comment #3, it would last indefinitely per Science Friday comment #7. It would seem before the first humans ever set food on Mars, they could have a supply of frozen food already stored on Mars, prior to the astronauts leaving Earth.
kbd512 #5
I agree that stockpiling food is the best way to assure long-term survival. However, I think that food waste is likely to be the greatest problem for the colonists. A lot of food is wasted on Earth, even in places where people still starve to death.
This is true. In Science Friday comment #7 host Ira Flatow states:
Studies show that more than 80% of Americans misinterpret date labels and throw food away prematurely in order to protect their family’s health. That adds up to $218 billion worth of wasted food each year. And, yes, it also contributes greatly to greenhouse gas emissions.
If a greenhouse/growing area on Mars included a rotating composter, wasted food or vegetable scraps could be composted and turned into fertile soil. Aerobic composting does use oxygen, but not near as much as a greenhouse full of plants would produce. One of the advantages of soil over hydroponics, is that it enables this type of recycling.
Tahanson #6 and #9
Yes, air pressure is only needed during freezing and is not needed after the food is frozen.
#118 Re: Other space advocacy organizations » Science Friday Radio Broadcast » 2023-01-07 20:38:16
Tahanson #4
I found this link about vacuum packed food:
Why Vacuum-Sealed is the Method to Preserve Food
At the end of the article (under conclusion) it states:
Traditional packaging allows oxygen to permeate the package, creating an environment for bacteria. In contrast, vacuum-sealed packaging is designed to seal out oxygen from around the product and tightly seal in flavor and juices, greatly lengthening shelf-life and over-all quality of product.
It's my understanding that most/all forms of life need oxygen.
It sounds like the trick is to keep oxygen out of the container so that bacteria cannot survive.
Maybe a double-walled container works because it's better at keeping oxygen out. (?)
As Caliban mentioned Mars is plenty cold to keep food frozen, and we don't need a fancy building to store food.
On Mars, perhaps a frozen storage area with a high concentration of CO2 in the surrounding air would help keep the oxygen out.
#119 Re: Unmanned probes » Ingenuity, Scouting Mars by Helicopter » 2023-01-07 19:28:46
Linux Unplugged: Mars Goes to Shell
In May of 2021 a podcast from "Linux Unplugged" featured Tim Canham, who is the Mars Helicopter Operations Lead at JPL. Apparently Ingenuity runs on Linux. When asked how Ingenuity communicates with Perseverance Tim replied they use a "Zigbee radio". (A radio commonly used for home networks/automation -- turn lights on/off, security systems, IOT - Internet of Things). He said Ingenuity communicates with a payload on Perseverance called a "Base Station". The base station then communicates with Perseverance using a "UART on steroids". (UART chips were used in early PC's to control serial ports. 2400, 4800, 9600 baud). Perseverance then communicates with a spacecraft overhead that sends data to Earth.
They used the Linux equivalent of "ZIP" and "UNZIP" to compress data sent to Earth, saving 20-45 minutes on each leg of data transfer. He also mentioned they got more power than expected from the solar panel allowing Ingenuity to fly longer than planned. The interview with Tim is about an hour long.
#120 Re: Other space advocacy organizations » Science Friday Radio Broadcast » 2023-01-07 18:54:45
Another article from Science Friday about frozen food.
According to the USDA frozen food will last indefinitely.
I posted a copy of this in the topic:
Science, Technology, and Astronomy -> Frozen Food Preservation at 50 Kelvin
Spoiler Alert! When Does Food Actually Go Bad?
#121 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Frozen Food Preservation at 50 Kelvin » 2023-01-07 18:51:10
Here's another article from Science Friday about frozen food.
According to the USDA frozen food will last indefinitely.
Per the chart below, food (particularly meats) do not taste as fresh after a certain date, but they are still good.
Spoiler Alert! When Does Food Actually Go Bad?
#122 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Frozen Food Preservation at 50 Kelvin » 2023-01-02 07:51:48
This is a Science Friday topic about frozen food.
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/ … transcript
The article states:
Have you ever pulled a long-anticipated pint of ice cream out of the freezer, only to find the strawberries crunchy and the normally creamy substance chalky and caked with ice? Freezer burn, a phenomenon caused by water in food crystallizing into ice inside the ice cream or fruit or meat during freezing, is a menace to taste buds, a driver of food waste, and even damages some of the nutritional benefits of food. And it’s always a risk as long as food preservation relies on very cold temperatures. Even flash-freezing, which works much faster, can still create small ice crystals.
But United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) food scientists, working with a team at the University of California-Berkeley, have a method that could help solve this problem. Normal food freezing, called isobaric, keeps food at whatever pressure the surrounding air is. But what if you change that? Isochoric freezing, the new method, adds pressure to the food while lowering temperature, so the food becomes cold enough to preserve without its moisture turning into ice. No ice means no freezer burn. And, potentially, a much lower energy footprint for the commercial food industry: up to billions fewer kilowatt-hours, according to recent research.
#123 Re: Other space advocacy organizations » Science Friday Radio Broadcast » 2023-01-02 07:49:11
This is a Science Friday topic about frozen food.
I'll post a copy of this in the topic
Index >> Science, Technology, and Astronomy >> Frozen Food Preservation at 50 Kelvin
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/ … transcript
The article states:
Have you ever pulled a long-anticipated pint of ice cream out of the freezer, only to find the strawberries crunchy and the normally creamy substance chalky and caked with ice? Freezer burn, a phenomenon caused by water in food crystallizing into ice inside the ice cream or fruit or meat during freezing, is a menace to taste buds, a driver of food waste, and even damages some of the nutritional benefits of food. And it’s always a risk as long as food preservation relies on very cold temperatures. Even flash-freezing, which works much faster, can still create small ice crystals.
But United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) food scientists, working with a team at the University of California-Berkeley, have a method that could help solve this problem. Normal food freezing, called isobaric, keeps food at whatever pressure the surrounding air is. But what if you change that? Isochoric freezing, the new method, adds pressure to the food while lowering temperature, so the food becomes cold enough to preserve without its moisture turning into ice. No ice means no freezer burn. And, potentially, a much lower energy footprint for the commercial food industry: up to billions fewer kilowatt-hours, according to recent research.
#124 Re: Life support systems » Caves as Initial Footholds on Mars » 2023-01-01 13:59:56
Calliban,
Thanks for your comments. I agree with everything you said. Actually the population of the Kansas City metro area is about 2 million. About two-thirds of Kansas City is in the neighboring State Missouri. As Kansas City grew it merged with many surrounding towns. Kansas City has a few other underground facilities. I'm not sure, but I think SubTroplis is the largest. I'll have to do some checking.
You mentioned using electric power (batteries) for mining equipment and that it would take time for the batteries to recharge. Electric machinery has been used in the Kansas salt mine (Strataca) since the 1920's. I think the equipment on Mars could be made to have batteries replaced whenever they need recharged. A set of batteries could be recharged while another set is being used, so there isn't any down time for the equipment. I agree the equipment should be running as much as possible. The equipment would need to be designed in such a way that the batteries could be easily removed and installed.
In 1948 Preston Tucker built a "car of the future" called the "Tucker". The car was innovative with many new features. One of the ideas that Preston Tucker proposed was to have a rear engine car in which the engine could be removed in a few minutes. The idea was that if someone needed engine work done on their car, they could take it to a local dealer and the dealer would swap out their engine with a loaner engine. The customer could then drive their car with a loaner engine while their engine remains in the shop being repaired.
There's are a lot of interesting stories about the Tucker. A movie was made about Tucker in 1988. For anyone interested in automotive history here's a link to the movie trailer.
Tucker: The Man And His Dream Trailer 1988
I agree Mars could use lime-like substance for road construction, eventually railroad construction and landing pads. My personnel opinion is that there should be several Martian bases spread out, rather than one huge base. All the resources a base needs will not be located in one place.
I think we all agree that a mine should be multipurpose. That is, something valuable could be mined, and the empty space left behind could be used for a habitat. I agree that sections could be sealed off and that mining can continue while more and more sections are built and sealed off. As you mentioned, a large area (2 square miles) could be mined in a relatively short time (30-40 Earth years). According to Wikipedia, Strataca is 980 acres, which is 1.5 square miles. In addition to mining salts and lime-like rock used for construction, there are other things that could be mined on Mars, such as metals like copper.
Here's what Dr. Zubrin has to say:
The Case for Mars
By Robert Zubrin
Chapter 7 Building the Base on Mars
Section: Copper
(Page 221 in my book)Commercially, the most important sources of copper ore on Earth are copper sulfide. As we have seen, sulfur is much more common on Mars than on Earth, and it is probable that copper ore deposits are available on Mars in the form of copper sulfide deposits formed at the base of lava flows. Once found, copper or can easily be reduced by smelting or leaching, as has been practiced on Earth since ancient times.
The example of copper drives home the fact that, in general, the only way of accessing geochemically rare elements is by mining local concentrations of high-grade mineral ore. However, you will find ores only where complex hydrologic and volcanic processes have occurred that can concentrate these elements into local ore deposits, and, within our solar system, only Earth and Mars have experienced such processes. Because these processes have occurred on Mars, we should be able to find concentrated ore of nearly every metal, rare or common, necessary to build a modern civilization.
There are other ways of mining in addition to using tunnel boring machines, or drilling and blasting. Below is a segment from the PBS TV show "This Old House" that shows cutting marble with cables. I think the same technique could be used on Mars if a hard substance needed to be mined.
The Old House
How Marble is Extracted
Here are some screen shots from the video above.
#125 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Home Heating and Power on Earth using Renewable (Solar) Resources » 2022-12-31 18:30:31
SpaceNut,
Are you familiar with outdoor wood furnaces? If you have a supply of wood maybe this would work for you. I know several farmers that use these. The fire is outside, so it lowers the risk of a house fire and saves space in the house. You may need to put up a metal roof over them though.
Farmers I know who use outdoor wood furnaces have no problem finding wood. Just cleaning up dead limbs in an area near and around their house gives them plenty of wood to burn.
Trees grow with energy from the sun. The carbon that is released from burning wood originated from the atmosphere (same as vegetable oil). Unlike fossil fuels wood doesn't add carbon to the atmosphere.
