New Mars Forums

Yes he's very bored obviously.
And really wants his clichés and stereotypes, liberally sprinkled with cold war nostalgia.
So here you go, Tom.

Такого как Путин 2014:  Спасибо майдану (и США) за Криму!  Old techno hit "A man like Putin" (2014 version: Thanks Euromaidan and USA for Crimea!)

HD Russian Army Parade Victory Day, 2014 Парад Победы

(instead of bringing its weapons to locations across the world and killing people, like the USA does, Russia displays them in an annual parade instead, for a national holiday of rememberence of 27 million dead in WW2, and party to celebrate victory in the evening.) С днем победы!
-Very evil [white]Russian.

Both videos are totally serious ;-) and so am I of course. But what can you do when people want to believe their old prejudice and lap up their propaganda, ignoring the facts + generally drank the cool-aid...?
I guess, make a joke with it.

No idea about that telephone call at all, whether it's genuine or spoofed. (consider the source) Either way, I personally don't think that it's feasible to have a credible referendum at the moment in that area. But I'm hardly calling the shots though, and those in charge decided they want it.
They are in a desperate situation. I really don't know what the point of having the referendum even is. Putin will annex it if he wants and it doesn't hang on some questionable referendum. Also, the rebels didn't ask anyone before they went ahead and occupied buildings, so I doubt they need anybody's permission to declare an independent state. It would be something similar to Pridnestrovie, probably, but bigger. Economically it's terrible though.

The question is: What is better for the population, in terms of immediate living standard.
Answer is that Russia has a lot more to offer working class people, pensioneers, lower middle class people. Whereas for upper middle class people and upper class people the situation is slightly more favourable in Ukraine, although they'd have to put up with living in a destitute country for a long time to come, with all the negatives associated with that. Practically nobody has any "democracy" related concerns about Russia.
And that's exactly what you can see when you look at who's expressing their support either way in that region. Those who can express themselves in English are inevitably young-ish upper middle class and this should explain the angle you are getting in the English speaking press. Obviously they look like much more attractive poster children on picture as well. Whereas the pro-Russians are workers, some state employees, ex military (Soviet, Ukraine and Russia mixed) and pensioners.

"Independence" will be terrible for everyone unless they can find some top class economists to make the most of the industry and mines they have there, and the port  in Mariupol if they get that.

Well it hurts me to see a gorgeous country going through this, and all because the USA decided to spur on a protest into a coup d'etat in one of it's tried and tested "flower revolution" productions.
The voters could have got rid of Yanukovich in under a year, in legitimate elections, if it was so important, and half the country didn't even support the coup d'etat.

To think that the US and EU sponsor and support an illegal coup d'etat against a democratically elected president, in a European country is beyond words.

My prediction is that Ukraine has doomed itself. It's not traditionally a nation state, it never has been. It's mostly been Russian or belonged to other countries in the region, on and off. 
I predict a part of it will be left and the rest will go it alone or eventually join Russia.
But unless they somehow manage to go straight to Russia, they have some hard financial times ahead. It'll be back to the 1990s all over again. Americans should be able to start buying wives from there again. They'll be desperate enough.

And the areas they lose will be the exact areas that the US/NATO were interested in. Nobody cares about the rather unproductive wheat fields and old market towns in the Ukrainian heartland. It was Crimea, the industry and mines in the East, plus access to the border with Russia in the East and the Black Sea coast that NATO wanted and I doubt they'll get any of it.

I'm responding to this in the Ukraine thread, but I personallhy no longer think that the USA is suitable or trustworthy partner for Russia. By the time this kicks off the USAs debts will have caught up with it. The US probably won't even be able to pay for participation. China might be an option to cooperate with if a partner is needed, or possibly ESA although everything surrounding European co-operation is a bit shaky, particularly at the moment.
Nothing against Canada but its so much smaller in population that it couldn't be an equal partner. Likewise the Eurasian Union countries who'd be overshadowed - although I very much support the whole Eurasian union project and if space cooperation helps it, so much the better.

Very interesting and well informed post, Robert! Thanks for sharing.

At the time of the Soviet space program they were very pleased to be able to spread everything across the union so that many different republics had a part in the super popular space program.
Of course, they could not predict what would happen to the USSR so obviously from today's perspective it would have made more sense to have kept everything space related in Russia. But the strategy was to spread things across the country. I think Canada is doing the same thing, right. Let's hope nothing happens to the factory you mentioned in Eastern Ukraine.

The Guardian: Antisemitic flyer 'by Donetsk People's Republic' in Ukraine a hoax

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a … raine-hoax

Everybody else realised it immediately. They actually copied part of the text from a play by the Strugatsky brothers. The person whose signature was faked on the document have been on TV across the Russian speaking world confirming that absolutely everything about the letter is fake. Of course, you are not shown that.
Only Western media and their readers believed this nonsense, and that was who it was intended for.

That has not happened and never will. But why don't YOU take a look in the mirror to see how you and your values look to the rest of the world?

US senator says drones death toll is 4700
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne … -4700.html

I could go on for the rest of this page, as you well know, but I think you get the general idea.

I made no such claims. Either you are lying on purpose or you got yourself confused. Various people keep bringing up the Tea Party in this thread. I make no claims at all about it; it doesn't interest me and the USA can do whatever it likes WITHIN its own borders. I happen to share some of their views on moral issues - other than that I couldn't care less about the Tea Party, or any other aspect of internal American politics. It's when the US starts meddling and killing abroad that I take offense. If you re-read what I wrote I think you'll find that.

-------------------------------------
I'll leave you American's alone with the propaganda you seem to love to believe and hate to have challenged. I can tell that various shades of Tom's beliefs rule this forum and that challenging that makes you an outsider and pariah. I thought there'd be some here that were smarter than that, but obviously that was an overestimation, and I am now turned off this entire forum, and am doubting that any serious cooperation with the USA is even possible for Russia.
----------------------------------------

Yes - the fact that they are Nazis and proud of it. They beat up one of the leading orthodox rabbis in Kiev, and vandalised the main synagogue.

Below are their uniforms. Does it remind you of anything?
Svoboda (Freedom) is their political party and Praviy Sektor (Right Sector) is their equivalent of the SS. Instead of National Socialist they say they are Socialist Nationalist. These people have been exercising a reign of terror in Kiev beating up people who write things they don't like, or photograph things they don't approve of.

If you don't believe me, search Yandex.ru or Google for
правий сектор or свовода украина and look at the pictures that come up.

Youtube is full of videos of them beating up regular officials who won't go along with their agenda. It's anarchy there at the moment. Yanukovich may not have been perfect, but he was democratically elected, he agreed to carry out elections earlier and at any rate, the regular elections were scheduled for under a year after the coup d'etat.

Right sector marches

Nazi greeting at Svoboda's annual meeting

One of the leaders in Svoboda, Igor Mosiychuk

Svoboda leader with American foreign department staff

Svoboda leader making nazi salute in 2013

People in Crimea mourning the "Russian Invasion"

Crimea before the referendum

"we always support Russia in sports anyway - we are not ukrainians"

"of course we want to join the motherland"

"we are so grateful for all the support from Russia"

Crimea's future is with Russia

Practically nobody on Crimea would is against being part pm Russia. If there had been any you would have seen them sobbing on English speaking news. There aren't any.

The situation is different in Eastern Ukraine, although all are Russian speakers there, I'd say about 50% would go with Russia and 50% want increased autonomy or federalism as part of Ukraine.

It's the Ukrainian nationalists that don't like Jews, not Russians. The Jews in Ukraine are Russian speaking and it's just not a big deal to Russians if somebody is Jewish.

For example Odessa is a major Jewish hub and it's completely Russian speaking and had pro-Russian manifestations.
This doesn't add up at all.

Jews should be a lot more concerned about the various Ukrainian nationalists and Nazis in Kiev - they really ARE antisemitic. In Russia nobody cares because there are tons of minorities already, and plenty of the richest or most influential people in Russia are Jewish. It's a non-issue to Russians.

Yes you are right that "the West" is a fabrication. The US fabricated it with the countries where it has military bases, and lately a few others. "The West" means the values of commercialism above all else, value systems based on stripping down all morals and traditions and promoting the US rock'n'roll & consumerism lifestyle as the ideal across the globe with mass media.. Then accusing everybody who doesn't dance along this tune of being some kind of horribly oppressive reactionary. Music, TV, films etc.

So sure, it's fabricated, but that doesn't mean it's not real or that it doesn't impact the world or make many people feel threatened.

As for Muslim terrorism - the way to stop it is to leave the Middle East completely alone, other than doing honest business with it, as needed. And not support Saudi Arabia where most of the Wahabis, Taqfiris and seriously dangerous (from a European perspective) moslems come from.

USA interestingly does the opposite. Goes and meddles in moderate Middle Eastern countries like Syria and turns moderate Mohammeds into radicals. It actively supports the source of most moslem mischief - Saudi Arabia

Most of the alleged 9-11 bombers were Saudis and the whole operation was funded with Saudi money.

So the USA goes and starts wars in Afghanistan and Iraq!!! and a cold war with Iran which is less extreme than Saudi and has no agenda outside the Middle East. And arms radicals in Syria creating a civil war which spilled over and created millions of refugees.

Europe could have avoided problems with Moslems by not allowing so many of them into the EU as labour and refugees - now the only way to deal with it is to accept them fully so they go mainstream and aren't marginalised and radicalised at the bottom of society.

There is nothing wrong with the religion per se - normal moslems are nice and the religion has a lot of nice sides to it. The problem is Saudi Wahabism that promotes the idea that all non moslems are [mortal] enemies, and general fanaticism. Unfortunately the Saudis are everywhere where there are moslems who are marginalised - preach their crazy talk, build their mosques and give them money.

The USSR had no problems with 65 million moslems within its borders. 1-2 more generations and they would have been completely mainstream. Most of them already are. Unfortunately in the 90s Saudi-backed wahabis prozelytized them and gave them money when they were broke, disillusioned and angry... while the US was happy to support anything that undermined Russian influence in moslem areas of Russia, or ex Soviet territories. And there has been much problem since, in Kaukausus and in parts of Central Asia where the wahabis got a foothold.

Tom, I just want to re-iterate that I don't want to talk politics with you. I perceive you as a fanatic/extremist of Bush/Reagan calibre. You support what I see as American terrorism. Drones, spying, a network of bases and invasion or villification of any country that won't agree to the US agenda.

I find myself provoked, insulted and just annoyed. I'm sure that there is much I could learn from you about US history and culture but there is nothing you can teach me about European or Russian politics or history. Your views seem to be a projection of everything that annoys me about the USA.

It was stupid of me to get involved in this thread when I came to the forum to learn about Mars. I am aware that nobody in an English speaking forum will share my views for the most part, but plenty will want to quarrel. This is a complete distraction and waste of time. Let's just agree to disagree. Ukraine will play out regardless of what any of us think.

One thing about this thread though! Wasn't Politics supposed to be banned in this forum? I can't believe what novels I posted in this thread. Why are we even discussing this?

Yes. I really don't want to say anything categorical about Americans though - I have met some very nice, intelligent and inspiring Americans and there seem to be many here.

But I'll admit as much as Canada being my favourite country in North America, not the USA. :-)  Some aspects of US culture are admirable, cool and impressive. Top being Tech and Nature. Entrepreneurship and Openness/Friendliness of people in everyday life. Obviously has to envy the super comfortable lifestyle of the middle classes in the USA.

Other aspects are ghastly, in my view: Consumerist culture, death by advertisments, lack of respect for anything and everyone; celebrating weapons, killing, bizarre lifestyles, promoting entertainment that's indulging in people's lowest instincts and setting that as an acceptable norm. Dumbness almost being a virtue.

But all of this is just observations. None of my business - it reaches me via American popular culture, but I am not forced to go there. I wouldn't care at all if it wasn't for the foreign policies of the USA.

My issue with the US is the foreign policy because it affects people outside the US borders. The military bases around the world, the "we-know-best" mentality that not only politicians but regular people adopt - even on subjects they don't know the first thing about.

The double standard, lack of principle, consistency and integrity in foreign policy gets to me too (supporting terrorists, dictators etc while at the same time preaching "democracy" and freedom).

I am SURE there must be plenty of Americans that have noticed the same thing.

I just hope that changed financial circumstances and power balance shifting towards China will mean that the US becomes a "normal" country so that people like me can enjoy the nice things about US culture without feeling revolted when all these things I mentioned come up.

On Ukraine: A Canadian study showed that only 1 in 6 Americans asked could actually find Ukraine on a map of the world, using a random sample of +2000 people. Those who could actually find it were less likely to express a categorical view on anything going on there. It goes without saying that it's totally ridiculous for a person to promote military intervention in a country they can't even find on a map. Sign of severe brainwashing if you ask me. They'll swallow absolutely anything they are told without knowing the very basics or trying to find an alternative perspective. And that for something as serious as a military intervention!

I believe nobody died at Russian hands as a direct result of the Crimea annexation. Drones alone have killed many hundred civilians in Afghanistan. Hundreds of thousands more as part of the actual occupation. And other places the US is not even at war with. Hundreds of thousands in Iraq. There are many US airbases in Europe. How long before American drones buzzing in the skies over us?  The US even kills its own citizens; Russia does not use the death penalty.

If you look at it objectively without any preconceived notions I think you would probably find that modern Russia, or even the USSR in the last few decades is/was more decent and less aggressive that the USA. The Soviet Union was so "nice" that it allowed itself to disintegrate without even fighting back - despite the fact that it would have been the easiest thing in the world. 

Not wanting to fight and not wanting to insult anyone. This is ONE perspective on the USA.

and at the age of 65 he might be more interested in golf, house prices and collecting wines.... than going to Alpha Centauri...LOL.

Really, I don't think we need to look for a "new" Mars yet. Let us at least wait until we are there!
And as for Romance factor - standing beneath a sky of two moons in a pink sky would definitely satisfy me

@RobertDyck - I really appreciated learning about Canada's experience. Have never been there and don't know about it from personal experience. I would not care either way about what Quebec did, obviously, but it seems that Canada is handling the language situation really well and is as sensitive as you could hope for about the language and culture. Seems to me that Canada is better off in more ways than one, for having Quebec.

As for the Crimean referendum; Well, Ukraine is not France, the UK or Canada. Things happen fast in that part of the world. Sure there might have been a few people who felt short changed. I think the odd person below legal voting age who grew up with the pro-Ukrainian school curriculum and has family on the Ukrainian mainland. Those among the Crimean Tatars who were strongly against didn't favour Ukraine, they favoured an Islamic Caliphate.

But for everybody over 25 it was a NO-BRAINER to join Russia. People's expectations on (alleged) democracy are not the same as in Western Europe and people locally are happy that the referendum was legit. There was never any question what the outcome would be.

PLUS - I think the propaganda angle, and the US/NATO agenda in Ukraine means, that it doesn't matter if they had done the referendum 100% according to the book. They would never even have got the thumbs up to go ahead, and they the referendum outcome would have been challenged according to every possible reservation you could muster up.

So I think it's meaningless to imagine that there could have been ANY way in which this would have been deemed acceptable to the US and NATO.

With Western Europe and Canada - they've got these countries where they want them already, and can allow for some leeway and don't have to worry about anything earth shattering happeneing.

But the ex-Soviet countries, the Middle East, Africa, South America; The countries there are strategic bricks or pieces on a chess board.

The USA figures out what it wants the next step to be, and then it formulates some ideological, humanitarian or economic narrative that will work for triggering the course of events they want.

Whether that is "democratic elections", overthrowing a democratically elected president (as just happened in Ukraine), supporting extremists, fundamentalist or radical sprinter groups, arming terrorists etc.   And Western media are their willing supporters in the propaganda.

That's why it was OK to support a coup d'etat against a democratically elected president in Ukraine, but not for Eastern Ukrainians to protest against discrimination and nazism.

It explains why the overthrowing of President Al-Assad in Syria as part of the "arab spring" was incredibly desirable, while the arab spring in Bahrain, a country that hosts a US naval base and is populated by a pro-Iranian population must be ignored and supressed.

The examples of this double standard goes on and on and on as every educated person who follows the news surely knows.

As for Russia it doesn't always act with 100% perfect integrity - sure!
But Russia's goal is not to bend the entire world to it's will and to serve its economic purposes, like in the case of the USA. Russia doesn't want a military base in every other halfway civilised country in the world.
All that Russia cares about is:

1) to never be invaded in it's mainland again. 22 million Russians died in WW2. Most major cities were partly or completely destroyed. Before that, almost every empire Europe has seen has attempted to invade Russia, eventually lost,but not after horrendous destruction and civilian deaths. The Russian paranoia about this is monumental. That is what Victory Day parades are about. To re-assure people that Russia can defend itself and in memory of all the dead.

2) To protect the rights of Russian speakers in countries neighbouring Russia (ex Soviet) from bad discrimination, something that's been happening in some of these countries.

3) To honour defense agreements with countries that explicitly asked Russia for help and received a promise, plus old allies that have been loyal. It's not that many and Russia does not go to war, just use its strength and influence, as when it managed to stop a US invasion of Syria.

4) Russia does not want or need more land, more people or more natural resources. Right now the main priorities are diversifying industry and raising birth rate. Russia is already too dependendent on natural resources had heavy industryu which is exactly what Eastern Ukraine offers.

That's it! Russia's actions during the USSR years were predictable with the key of ideology and history in hand. Russia's current actions are predictable in light of these simple priorities.

The insinuations that Russia is behind the unrest in Eastern Ukraine falls on the simple fact that Russia actually doesn't WANT Eastern Ukraine, and there are plenty of local people who are both willing and able to raise some havoc themselves.

Russia has denied it over and over and given good reaons that make perfect sense as to why it hasn't done this.
But of course, these allegations look great in Western press, and it's perfectly fine to make insinuations without any proof. 

Essentially every able-bodied man there will have done compulsory military service in either the Soviet army, or the Ukrainian army depending on age. There are plenty of local people with the skills to competently lead something like this.
The question is if this is something they are prepared to risk their lives and possibly die for, if it comes to a confrontation with Kiev. Plus, how badly out of hands things would have to get - how many have to die... before Russia would cross the border and restore order. I am concerned that there might be a hardcore group of pro-Russians in Ukraine who want to force Russia's hand to a point where it would have to get involved if actual Russians die in large numbers. Just a theory but others are worried about that too.

Plus most local policemen and probably half of Ukraine's army would not raise their weapons against these people anyway. That's why they have to rely on the "Right Sector" group of neo-nazis because they are the only ones who can be "trusted" to oppose the people in Eastern Ukraine.

It's a split country and only federalism can fix things now.
I personally think Eastern Ukraine should stay with Ukraine, but it's really none of my business.

I sympathise with those there who want Russian citizenship with all that means in terms of stability and instantly improved personal finances + investment in the region and having the same nationality as family members on the other side of the border.

I really don't think Russia's going to indulge that though.
Russia doesn't stir things up themselves.

Wouldn't you get worked up if your democratically elected president whom you happened to have vote for was overthrown by extremists with the support of nations you don't trust?
Then the TV stations you used to watched were closed down and you had no legal support for using your own native language, and you heard the rest of the world telling lies about you and blackpainting your people?
No wonder they are pissed off! 

As far as I can tell from watching Russian news like Rossia 24, most of the Russian "experts" seem to think that federalism and greater independence is the way to go. I have never heard anyone express that they'd like to see an annexation using military force. Knowing Russian style TV, if this was being planned, there'd be a few hints about it. 

And anyone who is silly enough to think that Ukraine has a snowballs chance in hell to get into the EU is deluding themselves. One basic requirement for  the EU is no border conflicts at all - all border issues completely resolved before membership negotiations can even start. Plus Ukraine's economy will literally be p-d over by the EU. Nothing the Ukraine has at the moment, whether agriculture or industrial stands a chance in the EU competition. They'd end up worse off than Romania who's literally got nothing to show for their EU membership, practically the opposite.
Not that Ukraine isn't welcome in the EU as far as I am concerned, but I really can't think what good it would do them.