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Desired is the ability to land a ship on mars surface in the 40mt neighborhood after using airbreaking and propulsive landing.
Of course there is some wiggle room.
Launch of ship to mars from earth orbit so how to have a starship that is 120 mt dry loss that much mass does no seem possible.
Assuming a launch profile based on SpaceX's Starship system, which uses Raptor engines and a methane CH4 propellant, a 40-tonne payload for a Mars transfer mission requires approximately 676 metric tonnes (mt) of propellant for the transit portion alone. However, the total fuel needed is significantly higher when considering all mission phases. The complex mission requires multiple propulsive burns and in-orbit refueling. A simplified estimate for a mission to transport a 40-tonne payload to Mars would involve the following phases: Launch from Earth to low-Earth orbit (LEO).On-orbit refueling in LEO.Trans-Mars Injection (TMI) burn to escape Earth's orbit.Entry, descent, and landing (EDL) at Mars.
To determine the methane CH4 and liquid oxygen LOX fuel requirement for a 40 metric ton (mt) ship landing on Mars, several factors must be calculated. The key steps are determining the change in velocity (delta-v) needed for the landing, applying the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation, and calculating the specific masses of methane and oxygen based on the Raptor engine's characteristics.
Assumptions for this calculation Initial ship mass: 40 mt (40,000 kg).
This is the dry mass of the ship plus any payload, but before the addition of landing propellant.Propulsive landing only: The calculation assumes no aerodynamic braking or very minimal atmospheric drag assistance. However, SpaceX's actual Starship landing profile uses substantial aerodynamic braking, which significantly reduces the propellant needed.Raptor engine specific impulse (Isp):
An average vacuum Isp of 380 seconds is assumed for the Raptor Vacuum engines, which is more representative of a landing scenario than the sea-level variants.Raptor engine mix ratio:
The Raptor engine uses liquid methane and liquid oxygen, typically at a mass ratio of 1:3.6 (methane to oxygen)For a fully propulsive landing without using atmospheric drag, a Mars landing requires a delta-v Delta V of approximately 4.5 to 6 km/s. If the ship uses supersonic retro-propulsion with atmospheric braking, the required propulsive delta-v is much lower, possibly as low as 75 m/s, although this is very dependent on the entry velocity.
The total propellant mass is approximately 5.5 mt. We use the Raptor engine's mix ratio of 1:3.6 for methane CH4 to oxygen LOX by mass.
Based on the assumptions, the approximate fuel requirements for a 40 mt ship using two Raptor engines for a propulsive Mars landing would be:
Total propellant: 5.5 mt
Methane CH4: 1.2 mt
Liquid oxygen LOX: 4.3 mt
Same ship returning to earth from mars surface.
For a 40-metric-ton (mt) ship returning to Earth from Mars using two Raptor engines, the estimated propellant requirement is approximately 194.2 mt of methalox (liquid methane and liquid oxygen). This calculation assumes a propellant depot is available in Mars orbit and that the engines are vacuum-optimized Raptor variants.
This is an estimate based on the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation and can be affected by factors such as mission profile and gravity losses.This estimate relies on three key parameters:
Mass of the spacecraft: 40 mt.
This is the "dry mass" m_{f} in the rocket equation, representing the ship, cargo, and all components except for the propellant.Specific impulse Isp of the engines:
The vacuum-optimized Raptor engines (RVac) have a specific impulse of approximately 380 seconds.Delta-v required for the maneuver:
The delta-v needed to launch from the Martian surface to a trans-Earth injection (TEI) trajectory is approximately 4.27 km/s.Adjusting for a 20% methane/80% oxygen mix Raptor engines use a methalox propellant mix, which consists of approximately 20% methane (fuel) and 80% liquid oxygen (oxidizer) by mass. The total propellant mass is the combination of the fuel and oxidizer.
Total propellant mass m_{p}: 86 mt
Fuel (methane) mass: 0.20 * 86 mt = 17.2 mt
Oxidizer (liquid oxygen) mass: 0.80 * 86 mt = 68.8 mt
Assumptions and other considerations The calculated fuel requirement is a theoretical minimum based on the ideal rocket equation. Several factors can increase the actual fuel mass needed:Atmospheric drag on Mars:
While the Martian atmosphere is thin, it can cause some drag during ascent, requiring a small amount of extra propellant.Gravity losses:
The effect of gravity pulling against the rocket during its ascent and burn means the rocket must use additional propellant to counteract this force. The 4.27 km/s figure already accounts for typical gravity losses, but actual losses can vary.Engine inefficiencies:
The Isp value of 380s is an ideal figure, and the engine may not achieve this perfectly throughout the burn.Vehicle mass variations: A fully fueled ship is heavier and less agile than one with less fuel.
So to make this work starship is now a two or three stage rocket that expends takes are we go.
one crew type and a cargo as its not leaving.
Now how to shrink the system so that not as many ships are required?
You sent 1 on the 15th and the other 20250921 for the newmarsmember
both were in the spam folder.
https://www.marspapers.org/paper/Gurrea_2021.pdf
Something that I had calculated a long time back was the quantity of ships needed to support 1 crewed for return to earth.
Pioneer Astronautics demonstrated a reactor capable of producing 1 Kg a day of methalox fuel from hydrogen and carbon dioxide while consuming a power of 700W. For 710 tons in 400 days that is 1.89 MW. (Zubrin et al., 2013) Assuming 400 days to produce the 710 tons of fuel needed, 352 tons of water (for electrolysis) and 1.89 MW of power would be needed. Using the methods and assumptions detailed in section 4.3 (including a 20% margin for safety), the solar infrastructure would be:
• 229.2 tons in mass.
• 3437.4 cubic meters in volume.
• 57290.1 square meters in area.
The deployment would require 5 to 6 Starships (volume constrained) and significant deployment operations and maintenance. Power remains one of the most significant challenges of a Mars mission architecture that accounts for the return of the astronauts. As with issue 1, failure in this area would result in loss of crew.
Assuming you are referring to a Starship-class vehicle with a mass of 66 metric tons (mt) and three Raptor engines, a propulsive landing on Earth would require approximately 3–6 tons of liquid methane and liquid oxygen propellant. This is based on the following factors:
Vehicle mass and engine thrust:
The mass of 66 mt is the dry weight of the spacecraft, excluding propellant. The final mass during landing would be higher, including any remaining payload and the three Raptor engines. Each Raptor engine is capable of at least 230 tons of thrust, giving a three-engine cluster significant propulsive capability.Delta-V for landing:
A propulsive landing on Earth requires a change in velocity (\(\Delta v\)) to transition from atmospheric braking to a final, controlled vertical descent. This terminal velocity is typically around 50–100 m/s.Rocket equation and exhaust velocity:
You can estimate the required propellant using the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation:\(m_{fuel}=m_{final}\cdot (e^{\Delta v/v_{exhaust}}-1)\)For a Raptor engine, the exhaust velocity (\(v_{exhaust}\)) is about 3,500 m/s (from a specific impulse of 350s). The final mass (\(m_{final}\)) is the spacecraft's mass just before the final landing burn.Propellant mass estimation:
Assuming a 70 mt final mass (including a small payload) and a 100 m/s burn:\(m_{fuel}=70\cdot (e^{100/3500}-1)\approx 2\ tons\)SpaceX's own internal analysis has produced slightly higher figures, around 6 tons, based on simulations and real-world results. This higher figure accounts for additional fuel reserves, engine gimballing, and safety margins.Breakdown of the landing process
A propulsive landing with this type of vehicle and engine setup would include these phases:Header tanks:
The fuel for the landing maneuver is drawn from smaller header tanks, which contain a fraction of the total propellant. This is more reliable and prevents the main tanks from sloshing. It also ensures the engines have a steady propellant flow, a key factor in successful propulsive landings."Belly-flop" maneuver:
During atmospheric reentry, the spacecraft enters a belly-flop orientation, using its body and control flaps to slow down. This reduces the need for propulsive braking."Landing flip" maneuver:
Shortly before touching down, the engines ignite and perform a flip maneuver to orient the spacecraft vertically for landing.Precision and controls:
The final landing requires precise throttling and gimballing of the engines to counteract gravity and achieve a soft touchdown
That sure sucks kbd512, sorry to hear. Good luck with the cleanup.
I replaced it with the update but its still putting extra junk in posts above 3870 link
it does not know how to do subscript
such as methane = CH4 it shows its as CH_{4}
exponents are another
its the text limitations of math
so the mars ship plus payload would create a propulsive landing
To land a 66 metric ton (mt) craft on Mars using propulsive methods, a significant amount of methane (\(CH_{4}\)) and oxygen (\(O_{2}\)) propellant is needed to perform the required braking maneuvers. A full propulsive landing is not necessary due to the thin Martian atmosphere, which can provide initial braking through aerobraking. A combination of aerobraking and retro-propulsion is the most efficient method for large spacecraft. Here is a breakdown of the fuel estimate and the assumptions in BBCode. [center][size=5]Propellant for a 66 mt Mars Propulsive Landing[/size][/center] SummaryLanding a 66 mt craft on Mars is most efficiently accomplished by using a combination of aerobraking and a final propulsive burn. For a 66 mt craft, estimates suggest around 20-30 mt of methalox propellant would be required for the terminal landing phase. Mission Parameters
[] Craft Mass (Dry): 66 mt (Metric Tons)[] Propellant Type: Methane (\(CH_{4}\)) and Liquid Oxygen (\(LOX\) or \(O_{2}\)), commonly known as "methalox".[] Landing Strategy: Aerobraking followed by supersonic retro-propulsion.[] Specific Impulse (\(I_{sp}\)): Approximately 350-370 seconds for a methalox engine in vacuum, but lower during a landing burn in the atmosphere.
Delta-V (\(\Delta v\)) Required: Estimated to be in the range of 400-500 m/s for the final, propulsive landing burn, after aerobraking has significantly slowed the craft.
Propellant Calculation (\(M_{p}\))The mass of propellant required is determined using the Tsiolkovsky Rocket Equation. \(M_{p}=M_{wet}-M_{dry}\) \(M_{wet}=M_{dry}\cdot e^{\frac{\Delta v}{I_{sp}\cdot g_{0}}}\) Where:
[] \(M_{wet}\) is the initial wet mass of the craft (including propellant).[] \(M_{dry}\) is the final dry mass of the craft (payload + empty tanks).[] \(\Delta v\) is the change in velocity.[] \(I_{sp}\) is the specific impulse.[] \(g_{0}\) is standard gravity (9.81 \(m/s^{2}\)).[] \(e\) is the mathematical constant (approximately 2.718).
Assuming a \(\Delta v\) of 480 m/s and an average effective \(I_{sp}\) of 300 seconds for the atmospheric landing burn: \(M_{wet}=66mt\cdot e^{\frac{480}{300\cdot 9.81}}\) \(M_{wet}\approx 66mt\cdot e^{0.163}\) \(M_{wet}\approx 66mt\cdot 1.177\) \(M_{wet}\approx 77.68mt\) \(M_{p}=77.68mt-66mt\) \(M_{p}\approx 11.68mt\) Key Considerations
[] Mixture Ratio: Methalox engines use a mixture ratio (oxidizer to fuel) of around 3.5. For 11.68 mt of propellant, this equates to roughly 9.17 mt of \(LOX\) and 2.51 mt of \(CH_{4}\).[] Margin and Boil-off: Space missions require significant margins for unexpected events. Propellant boil-off during the long transit to Mars must also be accounted for by loading extra fuel.
Atmospheric Conditions: The actual performance of the engine will vary with atmospheric pressure, which affects the effective \(I_{sp}\) during the landing burn.
Estimated Propellant Breakdown
[] Total Propellant Mass: 11.68 mt (minimum calculated for a 480 m/s \(\Delta v\)).[] Total Methalox Mass (with Margin): An operational mission would carry more, likely in the range of 20-30 mt, to be safe.[] Methane (\(CH_{4}\)) Required: ~ 5-7.5 mt[] Liquid Oxygen (\(LOX\)) Required: ~ 15-22.5 mt
I sent to both of yours through the mailer system.
AI Overview
120 metric tons (mt) of methane and liquid oxygen (LOX) refer to a rocket propellant combination used in advanced launch vehicles, most notably SpaceX's Starship. This type of fuel system has several advantages that make it a compelling choice for future reusable rockets and interplanetary missions. Context: The Starship system For context, the propellant load for the upper stage of SpaceX's Starship spacecraft is 1,500 metric tons, consisting of 330 mt of liquid methane and 1,170 mt of liquid oxygen.A quantity of 120 mt would be roughly 8% of the total propellant load for the upper stage. Advantages of a methane-LOX propellant system Enables reusability: Unlike kerosene (RP-1), which burns "dirty" and leaves behind soot, methane burns cleanly. This greatly reduces engine wear and turnaround time between flights, which is essential for reusable rockets.
Refuelable on Mars:
Methane can be manufactured on Mars by processing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and water ice from the planet's surface using the Sabatier process. This "in-situ resource utilization" (ISRU) removes the need to bring return fuel from Earth, which significantly lowers the cost and complexity of a Mars mission.High performance: While less efficient than liquid hydrogen by mass, liquid methane provides a higher specific impulse (\(I_{sp}\)) than kerosene. Its high density also allows for smaller and lighter propellant tanks compared to hydrogen, which more than makes up for the difference in specific impulse.Reduced operational complexity:
The boiling points of methane and LOX are relatively close, so they can be stored in tanks separated by only a common bulkhead. This allows for more compact and structurally efficient vehicle designs compared to rockets using liquid hydrogen, which is much colder and requires heavier, highly insulated tankage. Considerations and challenges Ignition source needed: Methane and oxygen are not hypergolic, meaning they require an ignition source to start the combustion process. This adds complexity compared to hypergolic fuels that ignite on contact.Explosion risk:
Methane and LOX are miscible, meaning they can mix together. Because there is little data on the explosive potential of this combination, launch agencies like the FAA have funded research to better understand the risks and ensure public safety.Cryogenic handling:
Both propellants are cryogenic and require specialized handling to keep them in a liquid state. This is especially challenging for long-duration missions where propellant boil-off must be managed. The significance of "120 mt" The phrase "120 mt of methane and lox" does not represent a standard rocket load, but it is a plausible amount for a single tanker run to an orbital depot. During on-orbit refueling, a Starship could top off its tanks with more propellant to reach a higher-energy target like the Moon or Mars. For example:Orbital refueling:
A tanker Starship could deliver a portion of its fuel to another spacecraft already in orbit.Mission segment: It could represent the propellant needed for a specific maneuver, such as a Mars ascent stage or a lunar lander's return trip.
The current plan for starboat is to size the ship to just 20% with only 8% for fuel load to a starships.
Thermal printers are different from normal ink printers just as a 3d printer is for plastics versus metals. All these printer types only output what has been sent from a computers detail file as they do nothing alone without this input to them.
Self replication is sort of like life in that the genetic coded computer in the cell directs the instructions required to make another and in it contains all of the other instructions to make the cells all diferent.
So that means being able to code with the atom what needs to be given next in the self replication process knowing what atom comes next in the self replication process until finished.
Robots move slow with limited targetted tools onboard but under the right place and timing they surprise.
Reading the sensed details takes time and determination to follow the clues that they yeiled.
Since Viking we had suggestions of life followed by other machines testing for the same finite detalis.
But each time being dismissed.
NASA Says Mars Rover Discovered Potential Biosignature Last Year

“This finding is the direct result of NASA’s effort to strategically plan, develop, and execute a mission able to deliver exactly this type of science — the identification of a potential biosignature on Mars,”
Being revived NASA resurrects its VIPER moon rover for a 2027 mission with Blue Origin
NASA is apparently giving its ice-scouting moon rover mission another try. The space agency has announced that the Volatiles Investigating Polar Exploration Rover (VIPER) project — which was called off last year after a series of delays and mounting costs — could catch a ride to the moon with Blue Origin in 2027 under the Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) program. Blue Origin must first plan and demonstrate how the delivery at the lunar surface would work, and if it's all to NASA's liking, VIPER will be ferried by the company's Blue Moon Mark 1 lander.
Blue Origin hasn't yet attempted a moon landing, but the first opportunity for its Blue Moon Mark 1 lander is expected to launch later this year as part of another CLPS delivery. That mission will also help to inform NASA's decision about VIPER's rideshare, which would use a second Mark 1 lander that the agency says is already in production. If VIPER does eventually make it to the moon, it'll be deployed in the extreme environment of the lunar South Pole to search for water ice and other resources that could support future missions.
“This delivery could show us where ice is most likely to be found and easiest to access, as a future resource for humans,” said Joel Kearns, Deputy Associate Administrator for Exploration with NASA's Science Mission Directorate, in a statement. “And by studying these sources of lunar water, we also gain valuable insight into the distribution and origin of volatiles across the solar system, helping us better understand the processes that have shaped our space environment and how our inner solar system has evolved.”
All start with the assumption that we have limited lift from earths gravity well. Also that we have trouble with landing tonnage as well.
Mars Direct 3 is a Mars mission architecture developed by Miguel Gurre
Mars Direct; Mars Semidirect; Design Reference Mission. Need Updating?
AI Overview
For a 26-metric-ton (mt) spacecraft, the estimated fuel mass required for a propulsive landing on Mars is approximately 40 to 60 mt, bringing the total landing vehicle mass to 66–86 mt. This relies on significant aerodynamic deceleration in the Martian atmosphere before the final propulsive braking maneuver. The final mass varies based on the engine's efficiency and the exact landing trajectory. Fuel requirements for Mars landing Several factors influence the fuel mass needed to land a 26 mt spacecraft on Mars: Deceleration strategy: A Mars landing is a complex process known as Entry, Descent, and Landing (EDL). Due to Mars's thin atmosphere, a propulsive-only landing is inefficient. Instead, spacecraft typically use a combination of methods, including:A protective aeroshell and heat shield to withstand atmospheric entry at high speed.A parachute to provide further slowing.A final rocket-powered braking phase for the precision touchdown.The 26 mt figure would refer to the mass of the final lander after shedding the heat shield and parachute system.Engine specific impulse (\(I_{sp}\)): The efficiency of the rocket engine is a critical factor, described by the specific impulse (\(I_{sp}\)).Higher \(I_{sp}\) engines, like those using liquid hydrogen and oxygen, provide more thrust per unit of fuel, but hydrogen is difficult to store.Methane and oxygen (\(\text{CH}_{4}/\text{O}_{2}\)) offer a lower \(I_{sp}\) but are easier to store and can be manufactured on Mars using in-situ resource utilization (ISRU). This trade-off is central to Mars mission architecture.Delta-V (\(\Delta v\)): The amount of total change in velocity required for the propulsive landing phase is roughly 3.8 km/s from orbit to the surface if parachutes aren't used, but is less when combined with aerodynamic braking. A higher \(I_{sp}\) reduces the propellant mass needed to achieve this \(\Delta v\). Architectural approaches Planetary mission planners have developed different architectures to manage the challenge of large-scale Mars landings: Heavy landers: An analysis of Mars landing vehicles for future human missions found that a total initial mass of 73.0 mt was needed to land a 10 mt payload, while a 25 mt payload (closer to your scenario) required an even larger vehicle. A significant portion of this mass would be propellant for the final descent phase.SpaceX Starship: SpaceX's Starship is designed to land payloads of 100 mt or more using a methane/oxygen engine system. In this architecture, the Starship tanker refuels the Mars-bound ship in Earth orbit, making propellant for landing part of a larger, refueled system.In-situ resource utilization (ISRU): Some mission architectures propose landing an initial vehicle with a fuel-manufacturing plant. This plant would use Martian resources (water ice and atmospheric \(\text{CO}_{2}\)) to produce methane and oxygen propellant for a later landing or for the return trip, significantly reducing the mass that needs to be transported from Earth/
This is in essence "A toehold mission to Mars is a strategic, multi-phase approach designed to establish an initial, minimal but sustained human presence on the Martian surface. The concept is derived from corporate strategy, where a "toehold" is a small, initial investment in a target company to gain a foothold before a larger acquisition. For Mars exploration, this strategy avoids a single, large-scale, "flags and footprints" style mission in favor of a gradual, cost-effective build-up of infrastructure.
Core design principles
The toehold mission design is founded on several core principles to mitigate risk and maximize resource utilization:
Split-mission strategy: Mission hardware, supplies, and habitats are deployed robotically to Mars in advance of the crew, reducing the overall mass that the crewed vehicle must carry and minimizing risk.
Use of in-situ resources (ISRU): A primary objective of the initial robotic phase is to land and operate an ISRU plant to manufacture resources from the Martian atmosphere and soil, such as methane fuel and oxygen. This is crucial for the crew's ascent and return vehicle.
Fast transits with surface abort options: Crew transport is designed for fast transits to limit exposure to deep-space radiation and the physiological effects of long-duration microgravity. A "surface abort" option is also built in, providing a safe haven at the base camp should an in-flight emergency occur.
Short stays followed by extended exploration: The first crewed missions involve relatively short stays (e.g., 30 days) to establish the initial outpost and prove the return-trip technology. Subsequent missions would leverage the existing base to enable longer stays and more extensive exploration.
Mission phases of a toehold strategy
A Mars toehold mission would proceed through several phases, combining robotic and human-tended elements to create a sustainable outpost.
Phase 1: Robotic infrastructure deployment
Launch: A series of heavy-lift launches send robotic landers carrying equipment to Mars during a favorable launch window.
Resource manufacturing: The landers use the Sabatier process to combine hydrogen (brought from Earth) with carbon dioxide from the Martian atmosphere to produce methane fuel and water.
Habitation and systems: The landers also deploy a basic habitat, a surface rover, power systems, and life support equipment for the arriving crew.
Phase 2: Initial crewed mission
Crew transit: An Earth Return Vehicle (ERV) and the crew transit habitat are launched into low-Earth orbit (LEO) and transferred to a Mars trajectory.
Mars arrival: The crew enters Mars orbit and performs a rendezvous with the surface habitat.
Surface stay: The crew spends 30 days on the surface, performing initial reconnaissance, confirming systems, and evaluating the ISRU-produced fuel.
Return journey: The crew ascends from the surface in the Mars Ascent Vehicle (MAV), which was pre-fueled by the ISRU plant, and returns to Earth in the ERV.
Phase 3: Extended exploration and base expansion
Expansion: Subsequent crewed missions expand the base using additional pre-deployed robotic systems.
Infrastructure development: Infrastructure such as additional pressurized rovers, power plants, and laboratory modules are added, enabling longer and more ambitious missions.
Extended stays: With more robust infrastructure, astronauts can conduct longer stays (e.g., 300+ sols) to perform deeper scientific research"
Robert Zubrin's "Starboat Mars Mission" concept proposes a smaller, dedicated ascent/descent vehicle called Starboat for Martian surface operations, reducing reliance on the large Starship for return trips. The plan involves a large Starship delivering the Starboat to Mars, where it would act as a surface-to-orbit ferry, performing direct returns to Earth or rendezvousing with a Starship tanker in Mars orbit for refueling. This approach aims to simplify the mission architecture and improve ascent efficiency from Mars.
Starboat's Role
Surface-to-Orbit Ferry:
Starboat serves as the primary vehicle for the crew to return from the Martian surface.
Flexible Rendezvous:
It can either return directly to Earth or rendezvous with a Starship in Mars orbit for refueling.
Mission Architecture
Initial Starship Launch: A large Starship is launched to Mars with the Starboat as cargo, or the Starship acts as a fuel tanker.
Martian ISRU: The Starship, after delivering the Starboat, serves as a base for Martian resource utilization (ISRU) to produce methane and oxygen.
Mars Operations: The Starboat uses the produced propellant for a 3.8 km/s delta-V burn to reach Mars orbit.
Return Trip: The Starboat either:
Direct Return: Uses its full fuel load to return directly to Earth.
Orbit Rendezvous: Transfers some of its fuel to a Starship tanker in low-Mars orbit to allow for a shorter, more fuel-efficient return to Earth.
Advantages
Reduced Complexity:
Eliminates the need for a large Starship to be the primary ascent vehicle from Mars.
Optimized Ascent:
Starboat is a smaller, more efficient vehicle for returning from the Martian surface.
Increased Flexibility:
Offers options for both direct and orbital rendezvous return trajectories.
Challenges
Power Requirements:
Producing sufficient propellant on Mars requires a significant power source, such as a large solar farm or a nuclear reactor.
Infrastructure:
Transporting and deploying the necessary infrastructure for propellant production poses a challenge for initial mission
in the inital title and post.
Much like other plans put forth ffrom Zubrin which could work as many other before have fallen on deaaf ear..
AI Overview
Robert Zubrin proposes integrating his "Mars Direct" philosophy with SpaceX's Starship through the "Starboat," a smaller, reusable vehicle that serves as a surface-to-orbit shuttle for early Mars missions, reducing the need for the large Starship to land on the planet. The Starboat would use less propellant, operate as a mini-Starship with a smaller crew, and act as a shuttle for a Starship parked in Mars orbit, making Mars exploration more flexible and efficient. This approach provides a pathway for early human missions to Mars by leveraging the reusable infrastructure of a larger Starship in orbit and the efficiency of a smaller vehicle for surface operations.
Zubrin's Mars Direct and the Starboat
Mars Direct Philosophy:
Zubrin's original Mars Direct plan emphasized a "live-off-the-land" approach, utilizing a nuclear-powered rover to produce fuel on Mars for the Earth Return Vehicle (ERV).
Starboat Concept:
The Starboat is Zubrin's adaptation of this idea to the SpaceX Starship architecture, envisioning a smaller version of the Starship as a dedicated surface-to-orbit shuttle.
Key Aspects of the Starboat for Mars Missions
Reduced Propellant Needs:
The Starboat requires significantly less propellant to land on Mars and return to orbit compared to the full-size Starship.
Efficient Surface Operations:
Instead of a large Starship landing on Mars, a Starship could remain in orbit, and the Starboat would shuttle crews and cargo between the surface and the orbiting Starship.
Flexibility and Crew Size:
The smaller size of the Starboat makes it more suitable for early, smaller-crew missions focused on establishing infrastructure on Mars.
Refueling and Reusability:
The Starboat's high reusability and lower fuel requirements would make missions more efficient.
How it Works with Starship
Orbital Starship: A full-sized Starship is sent to Mars orbit and remains there as a "parked" asset.
Starboat as a Shuttle: The smaller Starboat would launch from Earth (potentially fully fueled by a single Starship), travel to Mars, and then perform the surface-to-orbit shuttle role.
Surface-to-Orbit Transport: The Starboat's primary role would be ascending from the Martian surface to the orbiting Starship, requiring less propellant than a full Starship would for the same task.
This concept offers a more scalable and efficient approach to early human Mars exploration, aligning with Zubrin's core principles of resourcefulness and efficiency
Zubrin’s New Mars Plan with a Mini Starship Called Starboat
Specification for a Mini Starship Using Two Raptor Engines
Robert Zubrin talks about reducing the mass of SpaceX Starship by a factor of 5 for a Starboat mini-Starship. The linear dimensions would scale by the cube root of 1/5 ≈ 0.58. This gives a diameter of 9 × 0.58 ≈ 5.2 meters. The mass would then be 1320 / 5 = 264 tons (assuming proportional scaling of dry mass and propellant). For a thrust-to-weight ratio of 0.91, the required thrust is 0.91 × 264 ≈ 240 tons. One Raptor (200 tons thrust) is slightly insufficient, while two Raptors (400 tons) provide excess thrust, yielding a ratio of 400 / 264 ≈ 1.52, which is reasonable for an upper stage. There are more advanced Raptors where one engine could get the thrust.
I had worked out the insitu refueling for a total large starship and it need to many landing off equipment to make a single return ship happen.
Mars surface to Earth using 120 tons of propellant or perform a low-Mars-orbit rendezvous using just 50 tons of propellant, with a single tanker in low Mars orbit being able to support five such return flights. It could also be lifted to Earth orbit fully fueled by a single Starship and sent directly to Mars with five tons of cargo without any Earth-orbit refueling, or 25 tons of cargo with a single tanker refueling.
Mars Landing and Operations
Efficient Design: The Starboat needs five times less propellant than the Starship for landing on Mars and returning to orbit. For comparison, refueling the Starship on Mars requires approximately 600 tons of propellant, while Zubrin’s Mars Direct plan uses vehicles needing only about 120 tons.By a rough estimate, to make the 600 metric tons of propellant required to refuel the Starship once on Mars within a year and a half would require a power source with an average round-the-clock output of 600 kilowatts. A solar array that could do that would cover 60,000 square meters — that’s over 13 football fields in size — and weigh about 240 metric tons. It would require three Starship flights just to deliver such a solar array to Mars, and it would then be a major burden to deploy and maintain. A more practical alternative would be to use nuclear power. We could imagine a plausible reactor design at this power level with a mass of about ten tons.
I have been ill with a virus thaat is finally lossing its grip. I might not make it to the fun.
NASA’s mega moon rocket gets key upgrades for upcoming crewed mission
NASA is gearing up to send its first astronauts toward the moon in five decades.
The Artemis II mission is currently set for early next year and will use NASA’s next-generation SLS rocket and Orion spacecraft.
Although none of the four crew members will be stepping foot on the lunar surface, they will come The much-anticipated mission will take about 10 days from launch to splashdown, making it 15 days shorter than the uncrewed Artemis I mission in 2022 that operated as a test run for Artemis II.
NASA has just shared an update on its preparations for Artemis II, focusing on some of the improvements made to the SLS rocket and the Orion since the Artemis I mission.
As with the SLS rocket’s first flight three years ago, the 322-feet-tall (98-meter) still comprises a central core stage, four RS-25 main engines, two five-segment solid rocket boosters, the ICPS (interim cryogenic propulsion stage), a launch vehicle stage adapter to hold the ICPS, and an Orion stage adapter connecting SLS to the Orion spacecraft.
NASA said that as the SLS rocket heads skyward next year, it will jettison the spent boosters four seconds earlier than it did in the Artemis I ascent. Dropping the boosters a little earlier will reduce the weight that the core stage needs to carry after booster separation. The saved weight should allow the rocket to carry more cargo or heavier payloads to space, and the Artemis II flight will allow engineers to compare data to confirm their calculations.as close as 4,000 miles (around 6,440 km) of it before flying around the moon and returning home.
The SLS rocket’s maiden flight in the Artemis I mission experienced unsteady airflow that caused higher-than-expected vibrations near the solid rocket booster attachment points, and so NASA has added a pair of six-foot-long aerodynamic surfaces for a smoother ascent.
Upgrades to the flight system include optical targets fitted to the ICPS that will function as visual cues for the four Orion astronauts when they come to manually pilot the spacecraft around the rocket’s upper stage, at the same time practicing maneuvers to gather data for docking operations for the future Artemis III mission. During that mission, which is currently set for 2027, the Orion will link up with SpaceX’s Starship spacecraft for a crewed lunar landing — the first since 1972.
The rocket’s navigation system has also been enhanced — alongside improvements to its communications capabilities — by repositioning antennas on the rocket to ensure continuous communication with NASA personnel on Earth.
Notably, the emergency abort system has been refined to add a time delay to the self-destruct sequence. This will give the Orion and its crew more time to move clear of the rocket in the event of an abort, better protecting the astronauts from any destructive actions that occur soon after.
Other improvements include work on the core stage power distribution control unit, which controls power to the rocket’s other electronics and protects it from electrical hazards.
“While we’re proud of our Artemis I performance, which validated our overall design, we’ve looked at how SLS can give our crews a better ride,” said John Honeycutt, NASA’s SLS program manager.
Honeycutt added that some of the changes have been made in response to specific Artemis II mission requirements, while others are the result of ongoing analysis and testing, as well as insights gained from the Artemis I voyage.
he Artemis II crew includes NASA’s Reid Wiseman, Victor Glover, and Christina Koch, together with Jeremy Hansen of the Canadian Space Agency. The four astronauts have been in training since they were announced as the Artemis II crew in 2023.
Minimal mission size is partly due to lift and duration of mission. It takes planning and multiple landing with a limited capacity capability.
I sent to both a test message
signing it
Its not the first time others have made this label to a oneway plan but it requires a desire to stay and remain for the propose of digging in from mission 1 permanently rather than going back.
Here it is, enjoy reading
One man one way suicide mission
Mission One: a one way ticket to Mars?
of course we are also talking about
The "newmars toehold mission" is a concept frequently discussed in the New Mars Forums, an online community dedicated to the human exploration and settlement of Mars. It is not a formal mission by a space agency like NASA, but rather a theoretical approach to the initial crewed landing on Mars, intended to establish a basic, self-sufficient human presence.
Key features of a newmars toehold mission, based on the forums, include:
Minimalist crew and hardware. The idea prioritizes minimizing the crew size and the amount of payload mass sent from Earth to reduce launch costs and complexity.
In-situ resource utilization (ISRU). A central component is "living off the land" by using Martian resources to produce consumables and rocket fuel. The mission would rely on pre-landed robotic rovers to scout and process local resources, such as water ice.
Contingency philosophy. Unlike missions that plan for a full return-mission contingency, the "toehold" approach suggests that astronauts should train rigorously and be prepared to rely on the pre-landed habitat. The cost of a full, Earth-based solution for all possible contingency scenarios is considered economically unfeasible.
Pre-positioned cargo. Before the crew arrives, robotic missions would launch and land habitats, power systems, and supplies at the designated landing site. This would ensure the basic infrastructure is in place and functioning before humans are committed to the long journey.
Incremental settlement. The "toehold" is viewed as the first step toward a more permanent settlement. The mission is a stepping stone that demonstrates the feasibility of self-sufficiency, which is necessary for long-term growth on Mars without constant resupply from Earth.
Origin and context
The concept is similar in philosophy to "Mars Direct," a plan developed by Robert Zubrin in the 1990s and discussed on the New Mars forums. Both concepts focus on self-sufficiency and resource utilization as a way to make crewed Mars missions economically viable. The "newmars toehold mission" specifically emphasizes taking the bare minimum for the initial human arrival to get the "first foot in the door".