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The difference between a permanently manned Outpost or base and a Colony is that people living in a colony would stay for there without intending to return and eventually people would be born there. An Outpost would not be permanently manned but the buildings and equipment would be reused.
ISS is an Outpost
Amundsen-Scott is a base
McMurdo Station is almost a colony
Good point.
Asteroids can't rotate very fast or they break apart - typical period is around 5 hours.
Solicitation annoucement: Lunar Surface Systems - 21 May 2008
In close coordination with the Exploration Systems Mission Directorate (ESMD), the Lunar Surface Systems Project Office at the NASA Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center (JSC), plans to issue a Broad Agency Announcement (BAA) for ESMD Lunar Surface Systems (LSS) Concept Studies. NASA has spent time over the past 2 years studying the various functional needs and technical challenges inherent in exploration of the Lunar Surface. NASA is seeking innovative concepts related to particular areas of study that will be detailed in the BAA release. Areas of study may include challenges associated with regolith moving, energy storage, minimum functionality habitats, consumables packaging, avionics and software.
Hey there siggy, it's good to see you have delurked successfully!
That's a lot of points and questions for a first post, well done.
Okay, why aren't spacecraft reused? It's a problem of cost and technology. Making a spacecraft reusable costs money and makes it more complicated. When the technology to do this is ready it will surely be done. Some reuse is possible today, the Deep Impact spacecraft bus is being reused for two other missions called EPOXI. Progress cargo ships are being reused for ISS trash disposal. It's simply a question of cost, it's cheaper to launch a new spacecraft.
Yes, these forums are part of the Mars Society, click the icon top right to go there.
Yes, we discussed the Mars Underground movie here
There are many different views about NASA, but most people would agree it's the only game in town right now and they have done and are doing amazing things in space. NASA has been authorized to send humans to Mars and is beginning serious work on that goal.
Yes, closed life support systems will be essential to the first human Mars missions unless someone finds a way to launch a lot of usable mass cheaply into space.
It's big steps between robotic exploration, a first landing, setting up a permanent Outpost and then a colony. That seems to be the logical way to proceed, and of course right now we are in the middle of the first step.
So welcome to newmars and enjoy the trip!
From Constellation Enabled Missions (PDF 8MB) - 18 Jul 2007
This would be the next step after first exploratory missions using the basic "Lower Bookend" configuration.
Launch Aboard Delta II on June 3 - 22 May 2008
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. -- Launch of NASA's Gamma-ray Large Area Space Telescope, or GLAST, is targeted for Tuesday, June 3, from Pad 17-B at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Fla. The launch window extends from 11:45 a.m. to 1:40 p.m. EDT and remains unchanged through Aug. 7. The June 3 launch date is dependent on space shuttle Discovery's May 31 liftoff, and will move if the shuttle launch is delayed.
NASA's new gamma-ray observatory will open a wide window on the universe through the study of Gamma rays, the highest-energy form of light. GLAST data will enable scientists to answer persistent questions across a broad range of topics, including supermassive black-hole systems, pulsars, the origin of cosmic rays, and searches for signals of new physics.
NASA will hold a pre-launch news conference at NASA's Kennedy Space Center news center at 1 p.m. on Sunday, June 1. The briefing will be carried live on NASA Television.
Participating in the briefing will be:
- Dr. Jon Morse, director, Astrophysics Division, NASA Headquarters, Washington
- Omar Baez, NASA launch director/launch manager, Kennedy Space Center
- Kris Walsh, director of Delta NASA and Commercial Programs, United Launch Alliance, Cape Canaveral, Fla.
- Albert Vernacchio, GLAST deputy project manager, NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.
- Dr. Steven Ritz, GLAST Project scientist/astrophysicist, Goddard Space Flight Center
- Joel Tumbiolo, U.S. Air Force Delta II launch weather officer, 45th Weather Squadron, Cape Canaveral Air Force Station
Prelaunch Processing - video 10 mins
Spaced Out: Obama says NASA needs a mission
Here is Obama in his own words. You make up your own minds:
Q: I was wondering what your plans are for the space center?
A: Our space program, I think, has always symbolized what's best about America. That spirit of adventure. Limitless frontiers. Being able to achieve whatever it is we can imagine and dream.
So I want to not just maintain our space program, but strengthen our space program. Part of the problem, I'll be honest with you, I think that over the last decade, maybe two decades, we haven't defined our core mission of the space program as well as it needs to be.
I can imagine during the Apollo program everybody was very clear. First were going to send astronauts around the planet. Then we're going to send them to the moon. Then were going to land them on the moon. It captured people's imagination.
Now even though a lot of good work has been done through the shuttle program, I don't think people have as deep a commitment to the program. So what I want to do is to work with NASA to define the program.
Now I know we're transitioning from the shuttle to the Orion program and I am fully committed to making sure that is funded. But I want to review with NASA what are we doing in terms of manned flights to the moon or to Mars vs. are we better off using things like Hubble that yields us more information and better bang for the buck.
The bottom line is I am absolute committed to making sure we have a space program that is second to none in the world. That's my absolute commitment. But I want to sit down with NASA and figure out what's our focus and make sure that that focus is clear and yielding the kind of benefits over time. I want us to understand what it is we're trying to accomplish.
It is very important, though, because other countries -- the Europeans, China -- they are all in a position where they could potentially leapfrog us.
Obama needs another meeting with his advisor.
25 May 2008 23:53 UTC Mars Phoenix - Landing
Robotic lander
Successful landing
Landing Variables Weighed - 22 May 2008
By Craig Covault/Aviation Week & Space Technology
PASADENA, Calif. - NASA Phoenix Mars lander flight controllers at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) are intensively assessing two final major variables that could affect the success of the Phoenix landing on the planet at 7:53 p.m. EST May 25.
One factor is the weather, specifically atmospheric density, at the north polar landing site. Data from Mars Odyssey and Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) are being examined to determine if any updates will be needed to the timing of Phoenix parachute deployment.
Peter Smith, the mission principal investigator from the University of Arizona, said that so far neither atmospheric density nor weather overall appear to be problems at the landing site, although the team will remain vigilant until just before landing.
Slightly less atmospheric density at the Spirit rover's landing site caused by a dust storm a few days before its Jan. 4, 2004, landing caused its parachute to be slightly less effective than desired, nearly resulting in a crash.
If atmospheric density is a concern for Phoenix, controllers can program the spacecraft to deploy its parachute a few seconds earlier than the original timing. Such an update can be sent to Phoenix as late as three hours before touchdown. A few weeks ago MRO imagery showed two large dust devils roaming around the center of the landing site. There should be less of a chance for dust devils now due to somewhat increased temperatures at the site, but nobody wants Phoenix to be greeted by even a weak Martian dust devil on landing day.
"Much like conditions on Earth, the weather on Mars fluctuates and has an impact on the parameters we provide to the spacecraft during entry, descent and landing," says Brent Shockley, Phoenix configuration and information management engineer. "Therefore, engineers at JPL monitor the weather at the landing site up until landing and feed those conditions into the simulations run on the supercomputers at JPL to see how it might affect our landing and how we need to adjust the parameters we send to the spacecraft."
In addition to weather at the landing site, Phoenix controllers also are analyzing tracking data from a 2-second rocket engine firing May 17 to nudge the spacecraft slightly more toward the center of the 20-kilometer wide, 60-kilometer long landing ellipse. A final trajectory correction maneuver 21 hours before landing is being considered that would move the touchdown point about 8 miles toward the northwest, with the goal of hitting the center of the certified landing zone, where rock hazards are minimal. A final decision will be made on that maneuver about midday May 24, with the actual rocket engine firing at about 9 p.m. PST that night.
"Phoenix is getting closer, but there is obviously still plenty of work to be done," Shockley says.
If a person were riding on Phoenix now four days before landing, Mars would appear to be about the size of the full moon out in front of the spacecraft, but growing larger and larger day by day.
By midday May 25 it will be an enormous red planet dominating the blackness of space ahead of the lander just as it separates from its cruise stage. Phoenix will be approaching from the northern night side heading toward a touchdown just above the Martin arctic circle at midday local time at the landing site.
spacecraft status: in cruise mode, final approach
____Altitude above Mars: 400,000 km and falling
__Distance to Landing: 2,800,000 km and closing
____Speed relative to Mars: 9,718 km/h and increasing
39 hours to landing
Crew on Track for May 31 Liftoff - 22 May 2008
With less than a week remaining until the start of the STS-124 launch countdown, space shuttle Discovery is in place at NASA Kennedy Space Center's Launch Pad 39A. Final preparations are on schedule for liftoff May 31 at 5:02 p.m. EDT. The countdown begins May 28 at 3 p.m., counting from the T-43 hour mark.
"Preparations are going really well," Shuttle Launch Director Mike Leinbach said at a May 19 news conference. He pointed out that Discovery's remarkably smooth processing flow will allow shuttle work crews to take off the Memorial Day holiday. "Right now we're in great shape, and we really expect to have a good three or four days off this weekend and come back and launch."
Discovery's 14-day flight will carry the largest payload so far to the station and includes three spacewalks. It is the second of three missions that will launch components to complete the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency's Kibo laboratory. The crew will install Kibo's large Japanese Pressurized Module and Kibo's robotic arm system. Discovery also will deliver new station crew member Greg Chamitoff and bring back Flight Engineer Garrett Reisman, who will end a three-month stay aboard the outpost.
Press Kit (PDF 7MB) - all the details
Lander Briefing - Entry Descent and Landing Overview - 22 May 2008 - video 56 mins
o Fuk Li, NASA Mars Program Manager
o Peter Smith, PHX Principle Investigator
o Barry Goldstein, PHX Project Manager
o Ed Sedivy, Project Manager, Lockheed Martin
There's been so much bashing here of NASA's Orion capsule as old tech and equally ignorant adoration of the perfect Soyuz system, it's reassuring to see that RKA/ESA agree with NASA's approach. It's also good to see that there will be another system available for reaching cis lunar space.
Both RKA and ESA as well as JAXA and CSA are collaborating with NASA on the human lunar exploration program, the synergy will be of benefit to everyone. The lunar program has the potential to excite even the sleepy old Europeans :>
But it does have to fly, it has to land on the surface!
Ironically regolith is produced by the bombardment of micrometeoroids. Yes, it will make good cheap shielding and there's no shortage of it.
That's a brave prediction Zydar! This is exploration so we won't know what's there until we get there.
Actually the MARDI descent cam is on board, but it will be turned off because of a fault. MRO will produce excellent images of the location as good as and better than most of the images that MARDI would have taken.
The technology isn't available today to send people to Mars, have a look at all the problems that need to be solved
At 15:33 UTC Mars welcomed Phoenix to its Sphere of Influence
Mating the spacecraft bus with the propulsion module - video - 2:39 mins
Smart Design Fosters Perfect Fit - 3 Apr 2008
Imagine a wedding dress or a tailored suit that fit the first time you tried it on. That's pretty similar to how engineers felt when the Solar Dynamics Observatory (SDO) spacecraft bus was lowered onto the propulsion module and it attached on the first try. "It’s like lowering a telephone booth over a person," said Gary Davis, SDO propulsion subsystem manager at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. "The mechanical people made the operation look easy. It's never easy. There are some mechanical things you can never model and predict."
The propellant tanks are titanium balloons with the thickness of just 9 sheets of notebook paper, but they can hold 27 times their weight. There are 8 smaller attitude control thrusters and one main engine thruster. Four of the attitude control thrusters are backups. If the main thruster goes out, the smaller thrusters will be able to carry out SDO's mission. SDO is a five year mission, but the spacecraft will carry enough fuel for at least 10 years.
New Red Spot Appears on Jupiter - 22 may 2008
In what's beginning to look like a case of planetary measles, a third red spot has appeared alongside its cousins — the Great Red Spot and Red Spot Jr. — in the turbulent Jovian atmosphere.
This third red spot, which is a fraction of the size of the two other features, lies to the west of the Great Red Spot in the same latitude band of clouds.
The new red spot was previously a white oval-shaped storm. The change to a red color indicates its swirling storm clouds are rising to heights like the clouds of the Great Red Spot. One possible explanation is that the red storm is so powerful it dredges material from deep beneath Jupiter's cloud tops and lifts it to higher altitudes where solar ultraviolet radiation — via some unknown chemical reaction — produces the familiar brick color.
Detailed analysis of the visible-light images taken by Hubble's Wide Field Planetary Camera 2 on May 9 and 10, and near-infrared adaptive optics images taken by the W.M. Keck telescope on May 11, is revealing the relative altitudes of the cloud tops of the three red ovals. Because all three oval storms are bright in near-infrared light, they must be towering above the methane in Jupiter's atmosphere, which absorbs the Sun's infrared light and so looks dark in infrared images.
If development costs were conflated with marginal/operational costs, the numbers would be far higher! A modern passenger aircraft like the A380 costs $300m, a hundred million dollars doesn't go that far. The Mars Hab will have to be extremely reliable, its life support system has to work without fail for over two years. Technology like that is expensive. Much of the cost is in the QA and testing, the materials are just a fraction of the unit cost.
Shuttle flies about four times a year and costs about $4 billion to operate. Shuttle operations seem a lot simpler than the complexity of supporting two lunar missions per year (four launchers + four vehicles + Hab components) plus a Mars mission (7 launchers + 3 vehicles + Hab) every two years. The Outpost would be approximately equivalent to ISS.
NASA are designing Constellation to reduce operational costs as much as possible. Anyone who says they can do it cheap has a lot to prove. Exploring the Moon and Mars will be expensive, so much has to be learned.
Yes a lot of the cost is in the operational and engineering support for the infrastructure.
Apollo-like capsule chosen for Crew Space Transportation System - 22 May 2008
By Rob Coppinger
In a departure from previous spherical Russian capsule designs, a conical manned capsule with a service module has been selected for the European Space Agency and Russia's Federal Space Agency (FSA) joint programme Crew Space Transportation System (CSTS).
With a maiden test flight expected in 2015 and the first manned mission scheduled for 2018, both from Russia's planned Vostochny spaceport, the CSTS would carry six astronauts to low-Earth orbit or four to the Moon like NASA's Orion crew exploration vehicle, the design is a conical capsule and service module.
Under the agreement reached on 15 April by ESA and FSA, both organisations will engage in joint systems engineering tasks while ESA's industrial consortium will develop the service module and Russia's Rocket and Space Corporation Energia will be the capsule's prime contractor and oversee service module-capsule integration. The service module will be derived from ESA's International Space Station cargo spacecraft, the Automated Transfer Vehicle.
The FSA describes the CSTS launcher as having a baseline payload capability of 18,000kg (39,600lb). However, the capsule and service module combined mass may not be that much, says Manuel Valls, ESA's CSTS programme manager and head of policy for the agency's human spaceflight, microgravity and exploration directorate. He told Flight International: "The Russian rocket is not part of the co-operation agreement."
Valls says the CSTS will be designed to be compatible with Russia's and ESA's spaceports and he does not rule out, in the long term, the vehicle being launched on a man-rated EADS Astrium Ariane 5. Despite rumours of a cargo variant CSTS, Valls says there is only a crew version for the time being.
An intermediate system concept for the crewed CSTS will be discussed by ESA and the FSA in June and a technical and programmatic report will be finalised in October. The agency's leadership will present to its ministerial November conference the report's proposal for the member states to fund the development of the ATV-derived service module and related activities for its integration with the capsule and launcher.
What will all the Orion bashing Soyuz lovers have to say now?
Thanks for the update dmuller. Yes, the relay geometry is quite pretty, BTW we covered it last month
Keep up to date with newmars - for all things happening on Mars!
spacecraft status: in cruise mode, about to enter Mars Sphere of Influence (SOI)
____Altitude above Mars: 640,000 km and falling
__Distance to Landing: 4,600,000 km and closing
____Speed relative to Mars: 9,665 km/h and accelerating
Two days!!
Hi there Rune! and thanks for the warning
Maybe one day far in the future such a system will protect lunar colonies, but the technology doesn't exist today to detect and destroy tiny micro meteorites traveling at 20 kms/sec. Such a system would probably cost more to develop than the entire Lunar program!
From the same source:
"The odds of a direct hit are negligible. If, however, we start building big lunar outposts with lots of surface area, we'll have to carefully consider these statistics and bear in mind the odds of a structure getting hit.
Secondary impacts are the greater concern. When meteoroids strike the Moon, debris goes flying in all directions. A single meteoroid produces a spray consisting of thousands of "secondary" particles all traveling at bullet-like velocities. This could be a problem because, while the odds of a direct hit are low, the odds of a secondary hit may be significantly greater. "Secondary particles smaller than a millimeter could pierce a spacesuit," notes Cooke."
Quantifying the risk will be important work for some time, however, as bobunf suggests the risk may be quite small. Orbital debris in LEO is a real problem today, but shielding and avoidance maneuvers are used to reduce risk to an acceptable level.
Shielding the Outpost and keeping astronauts inside during meteor showers may be sufficient. The Outpost location will also help. The Moon's axial tilt is only about 2° to the ecliptic, so the probability of hits at the South Pole is less as most meteors streams are in the equatorial plane. See how the impact distribution falls off towards the poles.
In the outline of DRM 5.0 each mission uses 6 Ares V and an Orion/Ares I plus a Hab and an MTV. The launchers will cost about $3 billion and say another billion for the Hab/MTV. So yes, that would be about $4 billion every two years for hardware. It also seems to include running the Outpost, that he says costs $4 billion per year. These are very very approximate numbers, but they are an indication of what is thought to be needed to maintain such a program. For comparison that's about the same as Shuttle ($4 billion) and ISS ($2 billion) cost per year.
Updates Space Shuttle Target Launch Dates - 22 May 2008
HOUSTON -- NASA Thursday adjusted the target launch dates for two space shuttle missions in 2008. Shuttle Atlantis' STS-125 mission to the Hubble Space Telescope is now targeted for Oct. 8, and Endeavour's STS-126 supply mission to the International Space Station has moved from Oct. 16 to Nov. 10.
The final servicing mission to Hubble was moved from Aug. 28 due to a delay in deliveries of components, including the external fuel tanks, and the need to prepare Endeavour for a possible rescue mission approximately two weeks after STS-125 launches.
louis, it's just a WAG (Wild Ass Guess) for the development cost The breakdown is in my previous message. The current sensible plan is to first go back to the Moon, learn how to live there and move onto Mars.
Regarding the costs of the Mars components Mike Griffin said this last year:
Allocating an across-the-board 30% reserve at this stage puts the cost of a 30-year Mars exploration program at $156 billion in Fiscal 2000 dollars. Of this, approximately $70 billion consists of development cost, with reserve. If $4.8 billion/year is available in the human spaceflight account, then the Mars mission development cycle will require about 15 years. Thus, if we begin development work in 2021, we will be able to touch down on the Martian surface in about 2037, with follow-on missions every 26 months thereafter for the next two decades.
He goes on to say it will cost about $6 billion a year for operational costs.