You are not logged in.
As will I be busy sending letters off,
It feels good to be only a degree or two away from some of the greatest minds of our time...
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
I'm interested in writing to Chris McKay, Dan Goldin, Kofi Annan, Stephen Hawking (why ain't he on the list), Frank Borman, (apollo astronaut, he lives rather near me so I may be able to get a face to face with him) David Bowie, and perhaps Zach de la Rocha could be added to the list, he used to front the band, Rage Against the Machine. Certainly he is directley opposite of political figures, but I think it is important that we saturate the full spectrum of people with any degree of publicity.
Jodie Foster seems like a good choice to me too, being in Contact and all...
I'm thinking of writing my Senators and Reps too, i'm from far west Texas.
However, I do share Phobos's wariness of politicians.
Sound good?
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
CC, have you read "The Case for Mars"?
It details a mission plan that takes 6 months for outbound journey, approximately 1 M-year surface stay (500 days)
and 6 months for a return voyage.
The book was written by Robert Zubrin and Richard Wagner.
If you are unfamilliar with it I highly recommend picking up a copy. It will explain alot.
It isn't a perfect plan however, but it does address most if not all the major issues involved, short-term and long term
As we are finding on another discussion thats going on in these forums, there are holes and flaws to be patched.
Its also under human missions called, Mars Direct Rethought.
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Well I'm sure if our fossils will be around to find than something equivilant to fossils of our cities and roads would suredly be found in the less geologically active areas.
I do agree, however, that
Thats what they have said about each and every single picture there is of that area.
And what counts as that proof?
Is there a new building there, under construction? Is there a scaffolding with little martians scurrying about doing renovations on the face, perhaps making it look more face-like to convice us silly Terrans that they are really there?
I know it sounds sarcastic, but it seems to me that even with the most high resolution pictures, from orbit we still cannot make definate conclusions (unless of course something like what I mentioned above was to be seen).
I look at it this way, despite the fact that it would be an incredible motivator to send people to Mars ASAP if they turned out to be artifacts. However, since we cannot confirm their artificiality from orbit without sending one of the super expensive CIA spy sats they have looking down here (even then there will be skeptics and believers after unambiguous visual evidence makes an outcome one way or another)
So the motivations for going to Mars are going to be our own, for exploration of a new land and for economic reasons. We'll just have to wait till we go then to find out for sure what the landforms in Cydonia are, they are not and will not be the reason we send people...IMHO anyway
Your friendly neighborhood Martain...(who doesn't think he has any ancient ancestors on the home world {; )
-Matt
Well I'm sure if our fossils will be around to find than something equivilant to fossils of our cities and roads would suredly be found in the less geologically active areas.
I do agree, however, that Dr. Brandenberg's ideas are a little presumptuous. I too would like to see any evidence he has to back up his claim. (however if they are superclose up pixalated viking images I'm pretty sure I know what my outcome will be)
The global warming thing totally throws it off as well.
Say our icecaps thaw out entirely due to global warming here over the next few decades. Then our ocean "conveyor currents" are disrupted keeping warm water at the equator, never warming anything north of the tropics. Then we'd have one hell of an ice age. Most crops would die and as a result most of our livestock and us would die.
However eventually whatever turns on "conveyor" currents will turn back on and the glaciers will retreat. I find it hard to believe we'll be driven into utter extinction by such an event, however it is likely that our current level of civilization will no longer be the norm. Something dismal like the Dark Ages may occur, or maybe something optimistic like the ancient Greeks, more than likely something entirely different.
However our atmosphere will have changed utterly during that time. How would anyone reading the post apocalyptic atmosphere be able to determine it was fossil fuel induced warming that shut down our planet's heat distribution mechanism causing a massive ice age, crippling or killing our civilization?
I don't get it, sounds like a scary tale to me.
However I certainly wouldn't mind being proved wrong...
Your friendly neighborhood Martain...
-Matt
Well mirrors require no power source other than that is used in their construction. Orbital mirrors will be very expensive...
And if you are talking smaller scale mirrors, you need a power source to swivel them around the greenhouse for maximum insolation. Unless it turns out to be cheaper and none to much trouble to produce more mirrors and just to send out a couple of people to rearrange them during the course of the day, however that is a chore that is bound to cut into other things over the course of an M-year...
But back to the main issue. Other potholes, heh
What about that tether that is to be used to spin the Hab?
Whats it made out of, and more importantly, how feasible is it?
Secondly, I'd like to start discussion here on what types of experiments and other "things to do" can we pack into the Hab. All the equipment for such things is bound to weigh alot, and the hab has serious space restrictions.
Maybe some redesign to the Hab can be made, if only we knew what rocket would eventually lift it up there.
Lastly what is the current Hab/aerosheild weight limit?
your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
<Hitler, with his Uber-men operated from the same principle that you innocently speak of. The enslavement of entire races was formulated based on the precepts of a superior race, and the resulting inferior ones that would ahve to exsist to prove the superiority. >
Whoa there, I wasn't saying anything about an eventual and subtle change in our physiology through natural means would make a race of superior beings.
I was just saying let the dice fall as they may instead of activley trying to stop natural selection (no matter how meager it has become thanks to our ability to control our environs thus far) If our technology makes it inevitable that natural selection stops, fine, no problem here. However I don't think we should apply ourselves to that goal. Seems rather pointless to me.
By the way, what if our more apelike ancestors had the means to stop natural selection for the sake of genetic alliegience. I think we wouldn't be here...
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Well, humanity isn't really stagnating right now, but I think it unlikely that 10,000 years from now that my great, great, etc... grand childred born in various places in the solar system and maybe, by then, worlds around other solar systems, will look like me, a person whose ancestors come from northern Europe, Ireland in particular.
I find it highly unlikley that people will at some point all live in constant 100% shelter from the environment.
It is my opinion that in regards to Mars, no matter what we do, we will get a survivable environment there, however it will still be very different from Earth.
Still my argument boils down to this,
I don't understand an alliegience to species, I think that our overall history and mind set will survive any physical change imposed by our environment.
your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
<Quote
Is that so bad?,
In the terms I am talking about, yes, it is very bad. I would rather not be part of the species that died out, thank you very much. Look what happened to Mr. Cromag>
Sorry for getting off-topic, but I would like to pursue this.
Why, Clark, would this be such a bad thing? Its not like the "new humans" aren't going to be our children in the long run anyway.
No matter how much we shift the balance of power between us and nature, there will always be some sort of change in us due to environmental surroundings.
I don't think we should get so rigid in regards to preserving our "heritage" I'm not saying we should forget our past and what we are, I'm just saying we shouldn't have to live with it in eventual stagnation...
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
<Unless we control the environment of the entire planet, the environment of mars will shape us- and humans as we know them, will fail- some homo-martianus will succeed us. >
Is that so bad?, I'm sure something like that will happen anyway. No matter how Earthlike you make Mars, you can't change its gravity, and likewise you can't change its distance from earth. Not in a terraforming sense, but in a cultural sense. Without constant observation of what culture is on Earth, for instance watching TV and popular shows and buying from popular stores, Martian culutre will develop on its own. (factoring in the original cultures of those who go to live there, of course)
And watching and doing those things will probably be very impractical as sitting and watching TV would cut deep into time that needs to be used for station upkeep. And ordering the latest Old Navy clothing from earth would be vastly expensive and ridiculous...
Anywho, I'm all for the development of a new culture, hasn't happend on Earth for awhile. (no place left to settle in isolation)
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Mars will always be Mars.
Apparently there may have been oceans, at least large lakes that were around long enough to deposit sediment strata.
Apparently it rained there, at least the erosion patterns on the small "tributary" canyons along the southern wall of Ius Chasma, chiefly, and other sites around Mars seem to suggest it. (by the way, those apparently rain eroded tributaries of Ius are no joke, two of em would easily top the Grand Canyon in depth and width...)
And these factors seem to suggest that there was, apparently {; ), a strong potential for life.
My theory is that something large smacked Mars, not the Hellas impactor either, something much larger.
Looking at the MGS MOLA topography maps, I can see a very nearly perfectly round basin. It lays north by northeast of Hellas, between Syrtis and Elysium, in the south of Utopia. (fantastic names eh?, I've always like Mars's nomeclature)
Well at any rate, Mars was once, apparently, very warm, and at least wet enough to cut canyons with rain for a long time.
(by the way, those large and seemingly rain cut canyons running into Ius Chasma are probably relatively new, at least younger than the Valles Marineris complex of canyons, which probably means that they post date the uplifting of the Tharsis bulge, hmm, the more I think about it the more the implications pile up)
Anyway, losing site of my point, heh. Areoforming could return this planet, somewhat, to its conditions prior to whatever cataclysm happend to destroy them. Using only excess heat, wherever possible, and exstensive dispersal of life onto the surface. (apparently they can get methanogens to grow relatively freely in Mars Jars now)
This life would only be to get the ecology ball rolling, so to speak, and to get a shirt sleeve environ in a short amount of time. And eventually, with or without us, say in 10 million years, Mars would have its own line of evolution with totally unique lifeforms that would never and have never been seen on Earth. Its bound to be extreme, look at the effects the isolation of the Galapogos bestowed upon their inhabitants.
I dont think that life is cheapend by seeding it wherever we go, I think its quite poetic. I mean hey, if instead of our current look of bringing smog death and pollution wherever we go, like we pretty much do here on Earth, we can change that into an image of brining life, greenery and intelligence to any place we encounter.
Okie dokie, stream of consiousness, its late, heh, please bear with me...
Your friendly, and sleepy, neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Wow, I truely admire your ability to think in abstract with original ideas, not to mention the sheer scope of what you suggest, that relm of thinking is far beyond most people...
However, there are some terraforming theories (arg, it should be called Areoforming) that could accomplish a shirt/oxygen mask & goggles environ in as little as a hundred years using nothing more intense than letting all heat they can afford to let go, go. As well as the extensive seeding of lifeforms altered to survive.
As for the nitrogen bit, I think Odyssey is in the middle of taking readings of most of the chemical elements so we outta shortly find out what the story is regarding that. But I'm sure we'll be safe to say that there isn't much.
I don't really know how we could rectify this. (excepting that the atmosphere contains somewhere between 0.5-1.0% Nitrogen gas. So, assuming you have a filter that works at near 100% efficiency, you could cycle 100-200 cubic meters of atmosphere through the machine and take about 1 cubic meter of nitrogen)
However I'm sure that with the spacefaring capabilities required to build your planetary blanket, those people would also be able to either make nitrogen in the lab by controlled fusion or something else fantastic like that, or a little less magically, they could just send huge "tankers" to Titan, the biggest source of nitrogen gas in the solar system...
I do like your theory though, despite its complete destruction of the original planetary surface {; ), maybe it or something very much like it is in practice by some other race of planetary engineers.
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
By the way, anyone know what the current solution is for the nitrogen scarcity on Mars?
<Hey Matt, do you know the name of the algae that only grows in the polar regions the Brits were thinking of bombarding Mars with back in the 70s? I thought I still had that old book around but haven't found it yet. Might be nice to have something to tease a PhD with in Environmental Science!>
Gee, heh, I must be a youngin, or at least not as well read as I thought I was, heh heh...
I had no idea that the Brits had plans like that, at any point in time.
So to answer, no, I don't know the name, but I'm guessing its the stuff Vishniac was looking for when he met his unfortunate demise in the antarctic. Probably something that grows underneath the rocks in the dry valleys.
If you, Turbo, or anyone else has a link to info. about this former British endeavor I would definately appreciate it...
By the way, do you know why the plan fell through, I imagine it was ethical concerns...
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Well, I've recently started a discussion in another topic regarding filling the "potholes" in Zubrin's Mars Direct plan, with the hopes of modifiying it to present to world space agencies...
One of the things that needs consideration is, of course, a long range pressurized rover that can act as a small movable hab for long sorties during the proposed 500 day stay...
How far is anyone in regard to actually building a working prototype using the fuels produced in-situ on Mars?
Anyone ever seen the DVD version of Aliens? (the second alien movie) In it there is a scene that I believe was deleted from the original movie of a small family, Mom Dad Son and Daughter, traveling in a Rover that looked like it could handle most terrains.
I can draw a bitmap of what it basically looks like and send it to you guys via e-mail (no website of my own to post it on) upon your request.
Perhaps something that looks remotely like it can be a good starting point, that is if all designs to this point are simply in the design phase...
As for the fuel used, how efficient is it? And, just blue skying here, could it eventually be used as an alternative fuel here on Earth or would it's wate products be just as toxic if not more than what current fuels produce here today?
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Well, in regards to LED's, I have no experiencee or knowledge in that, it was merely a suggestion based on discussions from other forums...
And the C02 garden thing, I meant raise the percentage based on the assumtion that people would want to fill the greenhouse with an air mixture breathable by humans...
Back to the greenhouse lander experiments, I feel that an experiment carried out on Mars, using different growing conditions, must be performed before trying to do agriculture there ourselves. Not only will it give us data based on how plants grow in Mars ambient light, but also give us valuable data on how they grow in less gravity...
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
In regards to the greenhouse lander experiments, perhaps we should get together and actually draw up some sort of proposal, including all the technical aspects, and petition one of the world's space agencies to actually do it.
Unfortunately I lack the technical skill, however I am very good at brainstorming and coming up with feasible ideas. Perhaps we could, together, write up something that could be taken seriously out there.
Its times like this that I wish I had a website, then I'd simply draw up some simple diagrams for you all to look at. However this is not the case, so as an alternative, I'll draw up some simple bitmap images later on and send them to you people upon request. (maybe someone out there with a site will to share a little space for some small bitmap files {; ) hmmmm?)
Anywho, anyone willing to take on some of the technical aspects of this project, your help will be much appreciated.
Maybe, just maybe, over time, we can do this.
I think the M.S. is a little too tied up in its FMARS project and the artificial G experiment to lend a hand in sending landers to Mars right now, unless someone can prove me wrong...
I hope I'm not being too ambitious...
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Yeah, I figured Cassini had to have some sort of nuclear power source, solar electric doesn't work that far out, and its not like its burning coal, heh heh...
Anywho, a lesser concern of mine is the fate of the aeroshell.
Is it jettisoned once the hab or ERV reach subsonic speeds, and if so, perhaps a sortie during the human stay could go retrieve it.
Might seem an exersize in futility, as it would have likely broken up during its crash into the surface. Although it may have enough practical value to put parachutes on the sucker.
Anyone ever thought of it as a radiation shield that could be "draped" or rather set up like an umbrella over the hab?
Might afford just a little bit of extra protection during a dangerous event such as a particularly large solar flare...
Just a thought anyway...more to come later...
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Sorry, thought about this about 2 seconds after hitting the "add reply" button.
Zubrin says that a "closed loop life support system" is to be used with an inflatable greenhouse structure attached to the hab.
Ok, so what materials can be used for such a greenhouse?
Also, we would be depending on the successful harvest of plants grown an extra half AU away from the sun for survival.
How sure can we be that we will get yeilds from such conditions, even if you up the CO2 percentage of the greenhouse atmosphere?
I've read and have participated in discussions on other forums about the effectiveness of growing plants in Mars ambient light. The current consensus seems to be that arrays of white LED lights be used rather than ambient light.
Perhaps a major precursor mission to Mars Direct would be to send a group of greenhouse landers to Mars, each set up with different configurations, one with an inflatable greenhouse garden, another closed to ambient light using LEDs, and even one with an inflatable structure with a rotating mirror array that could help concentrate Martian ambient sunlight.
This would probably require two or more landers (only two if you make the inflatable greenhouse a double experiment, first try it without the mirrors then have the mirrors come out for duty once the first experiment is completed)
The data from these experiments will prove to be very very valuable.
I'd hate to go all the way to Mars only to find out that we cant grow our food. Dry rations aren't all that appetizing, and I doubt that Zubrin's claim of bringing enough to survive the duration of the stay is very strong.
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Okie dokie, I'm sure this has been discussed here before but, here goes...
I was looking over the details of the Mars Direct plan and noticed a few holes. This being the case I found my head was comming up with numerous questions.
Here's a few
Firstly, Zubrin clearly states that a tether be used to connect the hab/aeroshell combo to the spent rocket stage that pushed the whole thing on the way to Mars.
What is this tether going to be made of?
I've heard that tethers have problems with oscillations.
Can mid-course corrections be made using precision computer controlled propellant firings?
Next, the whole plan rests on in-situ production of rocket fuel for the return trip. How effective and fail proof is the storage process for keeping the fuel for the duration of the wait for the crew as well as the duration of the proposed 500 day stay?
Speaking of fuel production, the power source suggested by Zubrin is a small nuclear powerplant. How likely is this?
And what reasonable alternatives are there? Also, keep in mind that it also has to power the Hab reliably for the 500 day stay. (unless the Hab comes with its own power)
OK, lastly (for now, mwa ha hah hah...sorry)
Is there actually enough to do during the long 500 day stay?
I was wondering if you could pack an M-year's worth of experiments into the tunacan that is the Hab while still meeting wieght requirments.
I hope we can fix these little problems. Perhaps these are some of the reasons why NASA, ESA, or Russia hasn't picked up this obviously ingenious plan.
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
I thought the the heat shield was deployed for the duration of the trip out in Zubrin's Mars Direct. At least thats the way it looked in the diagrams, heh.
But then again, it does have to fit in the nosecone of a rocket.
I imagine unfurling would be a very critical process carried out in the first hour outside of the Terran atmosphere, I mean, If you can't get that sucker out and ready, you die, or at best you wait the long wait involved in free return trajectories.
On the other hand, who says a complicated unfulring process needs to be done. Perhaps, speaking from a Mars Direct point of view, you could fit the shield, "unfurled" (actually solid, as in this scenario it would never have to be folded into a compact space) to the side of the rocket stage that contains the hab. Of course this would produce extra drag but I'm sure this can be minimized by strapping it in the lowest drag configuration. Once en route to Mars you could perform an Apollo style docking manuver; jettison the heat shield prior to extending the cable and tether, maneuver the hab to dock with the shield, then release the tether and "put that sucker on spin cycle" {; ) (I like the way you put that as well Phobos)
Of course I don't know how well attached things can be when they've been put together in this manner, I mean its not like the LM and CM had to go through aerobraking manuevers together.
So depending on that factor, and if this idea be used, the only technology needing R&D is strong docking couplings...
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Jumping in a little late here, being a male I'll never know for sure, however I don't believe that there is any correlation beyond coincidance in regards to human menstral cycles and the moon's orbital period. No more than it is a simple coincidance that an intelligent species evolved here at around the same time that the moon was far enough from the Earth so that it's disc appeared to exactly match the sun's disc thereby enabling perfect eclipses. Some other examples of "cosmic coincidances" are that we invented space telescopes just in time to see a once in a billion year cometary impact on Jupiter, or the invention of the common telescope during the presence of Saturn's rings, which I've heard will be gone in roughly 10,000 years due to gravitational instabilities. (keep in mind that 10,000 years is a fraction of a fraction of a blink in geologic time scales)
Also I'd like to point out that I am disgusted with the fact that in the whole time there has been manned spaceflight there has not been one formal experiment in artificial or "centrifugal" gravity. (I like to think that there has been one informal experiment, remember the astronaughts in skylab running around the circumferance of their cylindrical module)
Anywho, I heard a few months back, maybe a year by now, that the M.S. is planning to launch an experiment, with mice I believe, to test the effects of spinning a spacecraft to produce G forces. This experiment would also test the effects of Martian G, which is what they plan to spin it at, and the effects of mice that are born under such conditions.
The results of this experiment would be quite substantial to say the least. (and a FRIGGIN BONANZA!! to say the most {; ) please forgive the language)
This data can be used to predict the feasibility of huge rotating O'Neil colonies as well as predict the viability of humans on Mars.
By the way, what G level do you think would be best for a O'Neil colony, 1 or less? I think Mars G would be best as its not toooooo light and it doesn't require the whole colony to be spinning as fast as Terran G would. I hate to think of the structural stresses either way though. (I'm a planet guy m'self)
Your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Besides, why not figure out something useful to put them towards. Maybe with better understanding in physics, we may eventually be able to recycle rods. (maybe by somwhow making them virtually rad. free)
Anyone know of any means or efforts to make spent nuclear rods recyclable?
Your friendly neighborhood Martian
-Matt
I was under the impression that it was Amazonis, west of Olympus that had the high concentration of water in the north.
In the south I think its around and under the polar cap.
I think this would suggest extensive northern settlement in Amazonis and Acidalia (Tharsis and Elysium too but not on the massifs themselves, on the edges as the radiation is significantly higher up there on the bulges)
And the south's main settlements would be on the southern rims of the great basins, Agyre and Hellas. Even though these basins are quite a ways from the water source, I think the low elevation of the basins will make it necessary for them to be located there. Perhaps a water caravan system could be set up to mine water from the south ('sides, who would complain about the water caravan throught the chaotic southern highlands when your scenery at home consists of you side of the rim and the vast flatness beyond)
Anywho, I think those would be the primest land on Mars in the first few decades as they are closest to, if not right on top of, the water found by Odyssey...
your friendly neighborhood Martian...
-Matt
Sorry bout that, I figured that I woulda got replies as such.
I shoulda read the other posts first.
Sorry
Your embarassed neighborhood Martian
-Matt
Well while I'm talking about interplanetary bolides, then I might as well mention one that has basis in reality.
Anyone got some real details on the newly discovered asteroid that is supposed to impact here on Feb 1 2019?
I know as much as the news media and space.com, but can anyone provide anything else on the discovery?
At that, anyone know how much damage this thing would cause, would a continental or oceanic hit do more harm?
Your friendly neighborhood Martian
-Matt