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#951 Re: Single Stage To Orbit » SSTO to mars and back again. » 2007-09-28 09:37:34

One way of getting around the on orbit refuelling problem is to use a hydrogen fuelled solid-core nuclear thermal engine within the SSTO.  This could reach Mars without the need for on-orbit refuelling, by virtua of its very high specific impulse.  I have even seen discussion of air-augmented nuclear fission rockets, which burn the heated hydrogen with ram-jet compressed air in a second combustion chamber.  The effective ISP is well over 1000 seconds.

A nuclear SSTO/SSTM would be relatively compact, but residual radiation from the core may be a significant additional dose burden to the crew during long trips.  Maybe some means of ejecting the spent core could be engineered into the rocket?

But why drag the SSTO all the way to Mars?
A scramjet would not work on Mars.
Any winged SSTO designed to lift off from Earth would have the wrong proportions for a runway landing on Mars even assuming there was a runway on Mars, and if there was the landing speed would have to be too high to maintain lift on Mars, and if one installed "Martian" wings on the SSTO they would be too massive and cumbersome to lift-off from Earth.

Only one kind of SSTO would work, that would be a tail launch/tail landing system. The SSTO also could not be air breathing, since the air on MArs contains no oxygen. If you forgo Scramjets for SSTO, you must carry the oxydizer which adds weight and makes SSTO harder.

No reason, other than to simplify the overall complexity of getting to Mars, and therefore reduce overall costs.  A nuclear SSTO has the potential to function as a Single-Stage-to-Mars vehicle.  For lunar missions it might even be possible to fly there and back on a single tank of H2.  This would allow trans-Mars vehicles to function much as airliners do here on Earth.  The only parts of the vehicle that would be disposable, would be the hydrogen fuel, the nuclear core (which would be relatively compact and could be replaced each mission) and the Earth return heat shield.

Also it is worth pointing out, that a nuclear hydrogen air-augmented system would work on Mars (H2 + CO2 = CO + H2O).

An air-assisted nuclear engine would have a significantly higher ISP when operating in booster mode in Earth's atmosphere, but also higher dead-weight during trans-Mars injection.  The benefits of the airbreathing system are maximised if the vehicle is used in direct throw, given that a larger portion of the acceleration takes place within Earth's atmosphere.

#952 Re: Human missions » The Cost of Going to Mars - A cost estimate of Colonization » 2007-09-26 10:23:24

I think that one of the biggest stumbling blocks with idea of colonising Mars as an individual project, is that there simply isn't a viable reason for any nation/individual to go to so much effort or cost.

Gerard O'Neill's plans for colonising near Earth space offered the appearance of being viable for the simple reason that his plan was centred upon something economically useful that could be sold to nations on Earth: Solar Power Satellites.  This provided a tangible economic benefit with the potential to justify the initial cost.  Hence, space colonisation would take place as a consequence of economic development of a useful resource.  This is why the US was rapidly colonised on Earth, despite being a generally harsh and hostile place: Britain, Spain and France were able to sink massive amounts of capital into their colonies on the American continent in anticipation that the colonies would be able to provide a return.  They did, in the form of timbre, tobacco, gold and sugar.

The fatal flaw of Mars colonisation plans is that they cannot offer any similar return that could not be more easily provided by other, more easily accessible locations.  Why bother shipping volatiles and metals out of the (relatively) heavy and distant Martian gravity well, when the same things can be provided much more cheaply from the moon and asteroids?

Plans for colonising Mars generally rely upon vague analogies between Mars and the Wild West and the simple idea that it is somehow our colonial destiny to go there and turn it into a space age version of the United States.  But the analogy is a poor one, for the simple reason that the embyronic US had lots of accessible resources and advantages that Mars simply does not have.  Those that believe that colonising Mars is in some way analogous to colonising the US, must therefore justify why it is likley to be cheaper to produce food, manufactured goods and other comodities on Mars and ship them to near earth space, when compared to producing the same thing in Near Earth space from lunar/asteroid resources.  I have never seen a convincing analysis that shows this to be the case.

#953 Re: Single Stage To Orbit » SSTO to mars and back again. » 2007-09-26 09:06:34

One way of getting around the on orbit refuelling problem is to use a hydrogen fuelled solid-core nuclear thermal engine within the SSTO.  This could reach Mars without the need for on-orbit refuelling, by virtua of its very high specific impulse.  I have even seen discussion of air-augmented nuclear fission rockets, which burn the heated hydrogen with ram-jet compressed air in a second combustion chamber.  The effective ISP is well over 1000 seconds.

A nuclear SSTO/SSTM would be relatively compact, but residual radiation from the core may be a significant additional dose burden to the crew during long trips.  Maybe some means of ejecting the spent core could be engineered into the rocket?

#954 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking » 2007-09-14 07:30:41

Tom Kalbfus,

What is your best guess for size of a solar sail to block light to Venus?
I think a position would exist between the sun and the L1 for such a sail, we would just have to figure out where.

The hydrogen collection from the outer solar system was on a long ago topic here.

With current technology its about a 20 year trip to collect hydrogen then deliver it to Venus.

Cant remember exactly how the 10,000 year per bar was arrived at.
It seemed pretty reasonable with a few people hacking away at the math.
That was for a pretty intense collection program with a fleet of big hydrogen collectors.

Other than cooking up a way we can collect hydrogen from solar storms all the other locations for hydrogen collection in the solar system will take as long.

Other than donations from earth.
I'm pretty sure we wont donate, we gave at the office smile

Trouble with adding hydrogen to Venus to create water is we need 30+ bars of hydrogen to deal with the c02 content.

Even if we had it and could deliver it all at once we would just create steam on the current Venus.

We need a Venus with surface temperature below 110c the boil point of water on Venus to add water.

Adding either hydrogen or ice ball before that would just make Venus a hotter place.
So cooling is the first think we need for venus to do anything productive.


I think we have a hope of cooling Venus with it's own nasty atmosphere.
A shell of c02 at the le grange point would stay in place for eons.
I'm just not 100% sure it would convert enough of the light to heat before it arrives at Venus to make the co2 atmosphere work as a heat reflector.

A floating solar sail would rapidly lose orbit due to sunlight pressure.  Another solution is to manufacture trillions of tiny aluminium balloons filled with a lifting gas (hydrogen , helium, nitrogen, etc) and inject them into the upper atmosphere.  Eventually, these could be manufactured using native Venusian resources.  As the atmosphere cools, CO2 will begin to liquify into seas on the surface.  It could gradually be bottled and buried.

#955 Re: Terraformation » Ceres » 2007-09-14 05:01:37

If you could terraform Ceres, you could terraform nothing. In otherwords, you'd have to put a gas bag around Ceres to get it to retain atmosphere, so if you could do that, you could have just the inflated gas bag with no asteroid inside, thus you terraform nothing by giving nothing an Earthlike atmosphere in which you could breath while floating in near zero g.

Sure.  But you do not need gas bags to terraform small worlds like Ceres, although it may turn out to be economically desirable.  The atmosphere will evapourate into space slowly at the upper ionosphere levels, where individual ions have a free path that allows them to escape the 'planet's' gravity without being deflected by collision with another molecule/ion.  This ensures that loss of atmosphere will be a slow process, taking hundreds of years even on a very small body.

Given that the species escaping are charged ions an atmosphere can be retained almost indefinately by surrounding the planet with a magnetic field.  This indefinitely recycles the escaping atmosphere, with escaping ions re-entering the atmosphere at the poles.

The smallest bodies that it might be practicle to terraform are set by economics, not physics.  When the terraformed body is less than a few hundred km in diameter, the mass of gas needed becomes a significant fraction of the mass of the body being terraformed.  Even for Ceres, the largest of asteroids, a mass of gas equivelent to 1% the mass of the dwarf planet would be needed to produce a 1 bar surface pressure.  You would need a large chunk of the Earth's atmosphere to terraform a body with surfcae area a lot less than one percent of earth's.  So whilst it is possible to naturally terraform Ceres, the question is, why anyone would go to the expense.  Long before Ceres (or Mars) are extensively terraformed, large areas of their surfcae will have been incrementally terraformed using glass/plastic domes.

#956 Re: Terraformation » Ceres » 2007-09-06 02:14:19

A terraformed Ceres could not hold onto any atmosphere without being bagged, and in any case it would not be a fit place for humans as the gravity would be too low.

We have been through the 'terraforming small bodies' concept before.  It would work and Ceres could hold onto an atmosphere without being bagged, for geological timescales.  The column density of the atmosphere would need to be 40 times higher than Earth for the same surface pressure, so terraforming may not be economic.  But it could be made to work in principle.

The physiological problems of living in such greatly reduced gravity problem have no easy answer and would no doubt create additional health problems for anyone attempting colonise small worlds.  Whether this is a show stopper or not, I am not qualified to say.

#957 Re: Terraformation » Ceres » 2007-08-31 06:17:57

Antius,

That and a few million years and i think we could start to settle the place.
Bring led boots for the first few 100,00 years as radiation protection?
I would also recommend night vision glasses for day walks. smile

Your idea is short term compared to mine though smile
Mine involves finding and moving other objects 1/2 the size of ceres as tidal flex partners.
Yeah it might be a bit of a tech challenge and a tad expensive on the rocket fuel budget, but then again what else you going to do out there.?

It's probably easier to terra form a bottle of liquid nitrogen smile

Ceres maybe has some potential as raw materials for Mars, but i don't see it as a candidate for any sort of terra form.

All of this is highly speculative and loaded with BS.  But radiation isn't likely to be a problem for three reasons:

1) the radioactive, nasty fission products has a relatively short half life;
2) They would trapped under hundreds of miles of ice and rock;
3) Space is a high radiation environment already - a few extra microsieverts won't do anyone any harm.

A bigger question is why anyone would bother trying to melt Ceres mantle.  A far more effective approach would be to construct an artificial superconducting magnetic loop close to the surface.  This would allow the planetoid to capture an atomosphere from the ions escaping from a comet.  The sun does all of the hard work.

#958 Re: Terraformation » Spinning asteroid in a gas bag » 2007-08-31 06:12:07

Lets consider the alternatives then. A kilometers wide gas bag is liable to be less massive than a manufactured kilometers wide O'Neill habitat. In the second case the whole habitat rotates and the walls of the habitat not only has to be strong enough to hold in all the air, but also the weight of all that shielding, the slag, rock, and concrete, the water, the soil, the plants, people and all the buildings people choose to live in on the inside of the habitat.

With the asteroid, you start by rotating the asteroid, other than the gas bag, there is very little else to bring. The asteroid is already there, nature provides it. To get the right orbit, you just pick the right asteroid, no moving of billions of tons of rock. To spin it up, you need only the most efficient of propulsion systems, an ion rocket, or perhaps an array of solar sails, very little reaction mass is expended, and the Sun provides all the energy you need. I'd say you spin up the asteroid first and see what breaks off or falls off, and when the asteroid is done falling apart you get a solid chunk that can hold itself together, you then bring or manuacture the gas bag. The gas bag isn't that massive relative to its volume, it doesn't even have to rotate. There is a hole and a flap in the side of the gas bag that is large enough to admit entry of the spinning asteroid.

Once the asteroid is inside, the flap is closed and sealed, with an airlock and docking port attached. The bag is then pressurize inflating to its full volume and as gas is produced or delivered the gas pressure increases until it reaches full sea level air pressure on Earth. What about the minimal living area, much depends on the original shape of the asteroid. If the asteroid is round, then there is not much to cling to, if it is in the shape of a dumbbell, that would be much better, there are many asteroids to choose from, I'm sure if we searched through them, we would eventually find one whose shape served our purpose. That is just the start however, as settlement activity increased, we could carve out further space inside. With an O'Neall, the whole entire habitat basically has to be finished before people can start moving in.

You could equally argue that all of the materials needed to build an o'neill habitat are already there.  If you are happy with the location, very little extra energy is needed to lift the materials out of the asteroids limited gravity well and construct whatever habitat you want.  Solar power can provide the heat needed to melt the metal and glass that you need.

The problem with a spinning gas-bagged asteroid as far as I can see is that little useful surface area is available and to create it one must carve out caves and ledges from solid stainless steel.  If we take this idea to its logical limit and maximimise the internal surface area through extensive digging, then we have a hollowed out asteroid that looks very much like ........an O'neill habitat.

So the question is, do we mine the asteroid and use the materials to build a habitat, or do we try to achieve the same thing by carving out a natural stainless steel asteroid and encasing it in a bubble?

#959 Re: Terraformation » Ceres » 2007-08-30 08:42:23

What about replacing the ice with iron. Then the rotation will give you the magnetic field. You won't have to keep power going to it. Making the planet heavier must be good, to.

Sure, why not.  The idea of terraforming Ceres is already rather ridiculous.  So i suppose yanking out its core and replacing it with hundreds of trillions of tonnes of iron is only slightly more so.

As for tidal flexing, the best bet would be use magnetic sails to place it in close orbit around Jupiter.

Another way of reactivating the interior would be to 'sink' a fission reactor through the mantle.  As the ice melted, it would moderate the fission process, providing a positive feedback effect.  This would melt its way down to the core of the planet and the trapped heat would eventually melt the lower regions of the icy mantle.  You would need a lot nuclear haet to actually melt the core and probably hundreds of gigawatt sized nuclear units would be required, but the heat would be trapped by hundreds of miles of ice and rock, so the heat would build up gradually with time.

#960 Re: Terraformation » Ceres » 2007-08-30 03:28:40

First off I would like to tell everyone that I have claimed all the astroids. I did it before Ceres became a dwarf planet so I own it as well.

What would I have to do to terraform Ceres? And what about terraforming smaller asteroids to provide food to the rest of the system?

Build a superconducting ring around the equator and trap a comet in high orbit around ceres.  The sun will vaporise the comet and ionise the comet gases into H20, O2, H2, dust and various other minor gases.  The ions will spiral down the field lines of the magnetic field onto the poles, gradually building up an atmosphere.  The sun does all of the hard work of creating the atmosphere, so all you need do is provide the comet and the superconducting magnet.  The H2 will escape into space and the water will freeze out onto the surface, giving you a thich, almost pure oxygen atmosphere with a little nitrogen and a trace of various other gases.  Make the atmosphere thick enough and the greenhouse effect will keep the surface warm.  I'm not so sure about growing crops though.  Insolation at Ceres' orbit is about 1/9th that at Earth, making Ceres a very dark, cold and miserable little planet.

#961 Re: Terraformation » Spinning asteroid in a gas bag » 2007-08-30 03:19:09

What if we spun up a solid Iron-Nickel asteroid such that it experienced an outward centrifugal force sufficient to simulate Earth or Mars gravity, and suppose we enclosed such an asteroid in a transparent gas bag that was sufficient to contain a 1-bar atmosphere of breathable gases?

Now we are too lazy to build a full-fleged O'Neill habitat or cylinder, so we just spin up a solid asteroid instead, let all the loose chunks and pieces fly off of it until we have left a solid core of asteroid that is in one piece and capable of holding itself together. The asteroid should be made to spin along the plane of the ecliptic and a mirror would then reflect sunlight towards one of the poles of the asteroid. We would then carve out ledges along the sides of the asteroids so we can build houses and do are gardening for human habitation.

Not a very efficient habitat, considering the very limited living space gained for the massive investment required in building and maintaining a several kilometre wide gas bag and of course the energy needed to rotate a billion tonne asteroid in the first place.

It isn't just a case of whether or not it is technically possible, but whether it is desrable compared to the alternatives.

An O'Neill sphere capable of housing 10,000 people would weigh in at less than 100,000 tonnes without shielding.  You could probbaly build them even smaller with compact architecture.

#962 Re: Terraformation » Mirror Array on Mercury? » 2007-08-23 06:22:33

Actually, yesterday I was reading about the effects of Libration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libration), which makes the Terminator Zone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminator_%28solar%29) move around during the orbit of Mercury. This might make a Heat Engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine) on the surface difficult, but still possible. What I propose is some sort of fluid conduit between the hot and cold sides of Mercury, across the terminator zone, which transfers fluid energy to a generator. The advantage of locating such a heat engine on the surface of Mercury is that a huge heat-sink (the cold rocks on the dark side of Mercury) is available for conduction-based heat rejection. This is opposed to using radiation-based heat rejection available in the vacuum of space, which is extremely slow.

On a related, but somewhat macabre, note; I read somewhere that a human body, if ejected into the vacuum of space, would actually stay warm for hours (i.e. not instantly freeze to death). Rather, one would die of asphyxiation, independant of any other cause. Heat rejection via pure radiation is apparently very slow.

'Geothermal' might be an effective energy source for a Mercury base.  The day side of Mercury is +400C, the night side -170C.  That gives an average rock temperature (just a few metres beneath the surface) of 230C.  The only difficulty as far as I can see is that a substantial heat exchanger would be needed for heat rejection, given the vacuum conditions on Mercury's surfcae.

A similar Seleno-thermal heat engine could be set up on the moon to provide power during the long lunar night, given that ambient surface night-time temperature are -100C and average subsurface rock temperatures approximately -20C.  The downside again, is the sheer size of the heat rejection radiator that would be needed at such a low heat rejection temperature

#963 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Followup on the Heim Drive » 2007-08-14 06:04:33

The paper even said that you can’t use the gravity machine as a space ship drive.

My reading of section 7.1.3 ... "From these numbers it seems to be possible that, if our theoretical predictions are correct, the realization of a workable space propulsion device that can lift itself from the surface of the Earth seems to be feasible with current technology" ... is that you can.

To bad my electromagnetism knowledge is getting fuzzy because the math looks really similar.

Yep.  My understanding is that they're saying you generate gravity just like you generate electricity - rotation in a magnetic field.  The constants are different, so we haven't noticed it before.

I've read about this effect before, it isn't entirely sci-fi and it can be deduced from general relativity, that every magnetic field also generates a gravitational field.  The 'problem' is it's generally a weak effect, requiring an electromagnet kilometres long, just to produce an effect that would be measurable.  I've never heard serious discussion of using it as a space propulsion technology, but I will shut up and read the paper.....

#964 Re: Terraformation » How much oxygen do we need to breathe? » 2007-08-03 06:15:30

The issue of nitrogen crops up again and again in Mars terraforming discussions.

The question is, how much nitrogen is actually needed for nitrogen fixing bacteria to work within soil?  Without those, we would be forced to either import masses of N2 into the Martian atmosphere or artificially produce and propogate nitrates across the biosphere.

It may turn out that a 200mb atmosphere which is 85% oxygen, 14% water vapour and 1% nitrogen is perfectly sufficient to sustain an active biosphere.

#965 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking » 2007-07-31 07:35:50

Here is my solution:

1) Fill the atmosphere with trillions of tiny, nitrogen filled aluminium balloons, which will reflect 80%+ of the incoming sunlight.

2) Keep replenishing the balloons and wait several centuries until the surface temperature drops to less than 50C.

3) Set up automated factories of the surface that compress the CO2 and inject it into sealed stainless steel bottles, constructed from local surface materials.

4) Bury the bottles in low-lying depressions and cover them in Venusian dirt.

5) After god knows how many centuries, the atmospheric pressure will have declined towards 5-6 bars, 2/3rds of which is N2.  Large amounts of hydrogen will be present in the form of sulfuric acid, which will start to rain out and fill the seas.  It is then a matter of converting the sulfuric acid into water and SO2 (which can be bottled and buried) and converting the remaining CO2 into oxygen and organic carbon.

6) The buried sulphur and CO2 would gradually leak out of its bottles and return to the atmosphere over millenia.  The biosphere would gradually sequester the CO2 as carbonate and sulphate rich rock.

An awful lot of effort for what is sure to be a boiling hot and desperately arid planet, even after terraforming.  But there is nothing to say that it cannot work in principle.

#966 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2007-07-31 07:21:40

The alternative to natural terraforming is paraterraforming, ie, covering the surface in giant greenhouses.  The biosphere would consist of thousands of small glass cells, interlinked by sub-lunar tunnels.  In the event that a meteorite strike takes out an individual cell, the tunnels connecting to the cell will be sealed until it can be repaired and repressurised.

Paraterraforming the moon offers a number of advantages:

1) The amount of gas needed is smaller and altogether more achievable;
2) The process can take place incrementally - small investments gradually building up to a fully terraformed world, but habitable from day one;
3) The glass needed can be produced from abundant lunar anorthite and the oxygen making up 90% of the atmosphere and mass of water, can be produced from lunar ilmenite.
4) Paraterraforming would leave unterraformed areas of the moon in vacuum, which allows mass drivers to continue operating.  This is likley to be the moon's primary source of export revenue.

#967 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Really big rockets » 2007-07-31 07:06:21

Sea Dragon is the way to go. With President Hillary--there won't be any sub orders. But a Sea Dragon SPS combo would give Electric Boat orders.

We just have to tell here than EELVs are made in Alabama--a red state, and that Sea Dragon Ares V are Blue state rockets...

I often thought that Sea Dragon would have provided a much cheaper and altogether safer way of producing the international space station.  The whole station could have been produced enpiece in a workshop on earth and launched into orbit in a single shot.  Surely, this would have been much cheaper than the painstaking process of having to assemble the station in orbit, requiring dozens of shuttle launches.

What a waste of time and money the ISS was.

#968 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2007-07-06 05:19:56

Forget it. The Moon's too small to be properly terraformed at the surface.

Feel free to intellectually cripple yourself with premature, ill-informed judgements - god knows you won't be in the minority - the rest of us will continue to examine the possibility until actual evidence rules it out, as if scientists.

Have fun figuring out how to import water, nitrogen, oxygen, carbon, phosphorus, sulfur, and lots of other fun ingredients to this dead rock then. I'll stick with Mars and Venus for now, which have at least some of those in appreciable quantities to make it seem economically worthwhile. Jupiter's moons are a long-shot, but I see the possibility for them.

To terraform the Moon, the planetoid itself would contribute nothing to the effort except gravity, and not particularly good gravity in of itself. We'd have to build a colossal magnetic field to supplement it. Everything else we're just adding from other things. Tens of thousands of TNOs would have to contribute materials. This is quite an operation.

I'm going to agree with RobertDyck on this one. We have four other better candidates for terraforming. Earth's Moon has no distinguishing characteristic that gives it an advantage over devoting resources to terraforming these other worlds. But that's not to say it won't be colonized heavily and be a very important center for growth. Without an atmosphere we'll be able to build up many industries that require high thermal efficiency. It's close to a habitable world, it has useful mineral resources as-is, and it happens to be a good place to set up telescopes and communications systems to talk to all of the other worlds being colonized without atmospheric interference.

Most of the mass of the atmosphere could come from the moon, as could 90% of the mass of the water needed to produce an active hydrosphere.

A lunar atmosphere consisting of 90% pure oxygen and perhaps 10% water vapour at 1/3rd bar, would produce the same O2 concentration in human blood as Earth's atmosphere.  Only trace amounts of nitrogen would actually be needed.

Getting enough water/hydrogen to the moon to fill the lunar mare may present a significant problem, given that we would probably need about a million cubic kilometres to fill the mare to a depth of 80m.  Thats an iceteroid of diametre 120km - a very sizable TNO.

Soil minerals, phosphorus and nitrogen would be needed in relatively small quantities (~10s millions of tonnes) and would presumably be available in the asteroid belt, in addition to what already exists in lunar regolith.

#969 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Moon - Your opinion, please » 2007-07-04 05:57:11

Forget it. The Moon's too small to be properly terraformed at the surface. It also seems to be valuable simply as a vacuum staging area for lots of industries. Subsurface colonies that utilize the deep interior heat might work though.

If the moon had a magnetic field strong enough to deflect the solar wind, then it is a fair bet that it would have retained a thick atmosphere to this day.  A synthetic magnetic field, produced by a superconducting ring around the equator, would allow the moon to hold on to an atmophere indefinitely, for as long as the field was kept in place.

In fact, it is possible to terraform much smaller worlds than the moon, simply be providing a magnetic field strong enough to capture any escaping ions from the ionosphere.  For very small worlds, the mass of gas required to produce a tollerable surface pressure becomes so large that the atmosphere would account for a significant fraction of the total mass of the body.  To produce a 1 bar pressure on Ceres for example, a mass of gas equivelent to 1% the mass of the asteroid would be required.  Hence, there is likley to be an economic limit to terraforming, rather than a hard practical one.

The most obvious question is why any future civilisation would bother, when it is so much easier to construct a free floating habitat in space and tailor the interior to whatever conditions are required.  Terraforming would probably cost more per unit surface area and the quality of the environment created would be questionable in most cases.  Who would want to live on a world with a 14day night, or on a world whose surfcae temperature could not rise above freezing without becoming a global ocean?  There is also a resource efficiency problem.  If Ceres were deconstructed and used to produce free-floating space colonies, the materila could produce 1000 times the surfcae area of the Earth.  If Ceres were terraformed, its surface area would be 150 times smaller than the Earth.  That's a factor of 150,000 difference.  The same would apply to the moon, which is far more valuable as a source of materials than as an actual habitable world in its own right.

#970 Re: Planetary transportation » Hydrogen Car Powered by Expansion of Liquid H2 » 2007-06-18 06:14:23

Cryogenic heat engines have been proposed as alternative transportation power sources here on Earth.  There are a number of problems:

1) Low power density ~ LN2, the most common assumed propellant, has energy density 1-2% that of gasolene;
2) low thermodynamic efficiency of the heat engine (<10% for the entire cycle)
3) the power of the vehicle is limited by the rate of heat transfer from the surroundings.

Electric power is generally used to compress (and in the case of H2, manufacture) the working fluid.  Which raises the question, why not simply use a battery electric vehicle, which is far more efficient and has a similar power to weight ratio?

Generally speaking, H2 is a very poor fuel in any situation, due to its low boiling point, low density, its ability to soak through most metals and its very low ignition activation energy.

Zubrin's methane/oxygen rover concept is about the most practical suggestion for an extraplanetary rover that I have seen so far.  You generally have to go a long way to beat a bog standard IC engine in terms of energy density and performance.  It would be even better if the methane could be replaced by something denser or with a higher boiling point, like ethylene, (m)ethanol, acetylene or even synthetic gasolene.  All can be manufactured on Mars from air and water.

#971 Re: Terraformation » Angular Momentum and Planetary Dynamos » 2007-06-15 01:40:31

On Mars, the Tharsis region provides the balancing effect that is provided by the moon on Earth.  The Tharsis bulge always aligns itself on the equator, effectively stabilising the planet.

#972 Re: Terraformation » Angular Momentum and Planetary Dynamos » 2007-06-15 01:40:06

On Mars, the Tharsis region provides the balancing effect that is provided by the moon on Earth.  The Tharsis bulge always aligns itself on the equator, effectively stabilising the planet.

#973 Re: Terraformation » Terrform Venus » 2007-06-11 00:59:05

No excess CO2 on Venus. The same amount we have here on Earth`s crust and fluo-spheres. Just the carbon is in non-proper form on Venus. To expell the CO2 off-planet is pure waste of resources. Venus needs H, to sequester the carbon into rocks, carbohydrates, etc... This H, may come from the planetary mantle or from the Outer System or from the Sun... Imagine "atomic laser" solar -powered, harvesting H from the solar atmosphere and precisely dumping it into the Venusian atmosphere. the "atomic lasers" spit with velocities of 10-100 km/s - hence the receiver on/around Venus also would work as powerfull powerplant for the other necessary works of global environmental conditioning... Like a MHD converter...

The column density of Venus' atmosphere is 1000 tonnes CO2 per m2.  If it were liquified, it would form a global CO2 ocean with a depth averaging 500 metres.  That is a lot more carbon than we have here on Earth, even taking into account things like deep limestone deposits.  The biosphere is a relatively thin layer, confined to the top few inches of the Earth's surface, on average.  And it would be impossible to start a biosphere on Venus of any meaningful scale on Venus.

I really do believe that the idea of terraforming Venus is a non-starter.

#974 Re: Terraformation » Is Global Warming real? » 2007-06-07 09:49:03

Coal is easily the dirtiest form of energy production on the planet.  A single 1,000 Megawatt coal plant releases approximately 600 pounds of carbon dioxide and 30 pounds of sulfur dioxide into the atmosphere each SECOND.

In one second it releases as much nitrogen oxides as 200,000 automobiles.  These polutants are estimated to cause 25 premature fatalities and 60,000 cases of respiratory complaints per year / power plant.

Additionally, this plant has to get rid of 30,000 truckloads of ash annually.  (This amount would cover a square mile 60 feet deep.)  The ash is full of carcinogens, highly acidic (or sometimes highly alkaline depending on the type of coal).

Run off from these dumps have sterilized streams and devistated communities.

Coal is a very dirty form of energy.  All sorts of stuff is mixed up with it.  I quote:

In short, naturally occurring radioactive species released by coal combustion are accumulating in the environment along with minerals such as mercury, arsenic, silicon, calcium, chlorine, and lead, sodium, as well as metals such as aluminum, iron, lead, magnesium, titanium, boron, chromium, and others that are continually dispersed in millions of tons of coal combustion by-products. The potential benefits and threats of these released materials will someday be of such significance that they should not now be ignored.--Alex Gabbard of the Metals and Ceramics Division

Furthermore the acid rain from the sulfur and nitric oxides damages the health of forests, sterilizes lakes and leaches heavy metals into the environment.  (When Canada complained about the acid rain that was sterilzing lakes in Ontario, the USA basically told us to take a hike.  In many ways the USA is not a very likable, social or fair neighbour.)

Finally, coal contains trace amounts of Uranium, Thorium and other radioactive elements.  (Usually at least 2 to 3 parts per million, tho it ranges from 1 to 10 ppm.)  A 1,000 MWatt coal plant produces 100 times MORE radioactivity than a equally powerful nuclear plant and it scatters the nuclear waste widely into the biosphere.  If people were rationally concerned with radioactive wastes they would start by closing down coal plants.

(In fact, the uranium released by a coal burning plant has more energy in it than the energy got by burning the coal!)


For more information see:

// A site that discusses the radiation releases from coal plants
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev … lmain.html


// A discussion (With lots of references!) talking about nuclear power.  It points out that there is a double standard between coal radioactivity and nuclear radioactivity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power

An essay in: "Catastrophes, Chaos & Convolutions" by James P. Hogan page 182.  Much of the data on conventional wastes by coal burning plants.

// Website about acid rain.
http://www.ec.gc.ca/acidrain/

// More on acid rain
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-75-584/sci … acid_rain/

J. O. Corbett, "The Radiation Dose From Coal Burning: A Review of Pathways and Data," Radiation Protection Dosimetry, 4 (1): 5-19.

T. L. Thoem, et al., Coal Fired Power Plant Trace Element Study, Volume 1: A Three Station Comparison, Radian Corp. for USEPA, Sept. 1975.

W. Torrey, "Coal Ash Utilization: Fly Ash, Bottom Ash and Slag," Pollution Technology Review, 48 (1978) 136.

Coal may not be as bad as most people think.  When well-head and pipeline losses are taken into consideration, the greenhouse gas potential of natural gas is just as high if not greater than coal.

What's more, the dirtiest of coal plants relesae large amounts of sulphur dioxide and dust into the atmosphere, which actively reduce global heating.

Also, I would like to point out that global warming is not the only disaster with the potential to wreck human civilisation.  The global peaking of oil and gas production could return us to the stone age in a much shorter timescale (~decades).

#975 Re: Civilization and Culture » Creating the Outdoors Indoors » 2007-06-07 01:47:45

Suppose you wanted to create a domed environment on Mars and you placed a House in the center of that dome and surrounded it with fields. How practical would such Martian homesteading be? Suppose you wanted to make the dome invisible to those standing in the center, would that be possible? how about the idea or artificially creating air currents and using sound absorbing material for the inner dome surface so that it doesn't echo like the interior of a greenhouse would. What are the limits of reproducing an Earthlike environment locally? What if you projected a blue sky on the inner dome surface and had a sprinkler system installed for whenever it rained? Could this all be done?

Living in a dome on Mars has limited practicality.  The main problem (not to mention the cost of the structure and temperature variation) is the high cosmic radiation doserate at the Martian surface.  In free space, doses approach 1Sievert per year and on the Martian surface, doses are likely to be around 0.4Sv per year, although this will depend upon the degree to which the atmosphere breaks down into secondary particles.  The atmosphere is far too thin to provide any meaningful shielding.  This dose is far too high for constant exposure and is likely to produce acute effects, such as accumulating nerve damage and suppression of white blood cell counts.

It is likely that future Martian settlements will be sub-surface, with only a minimum of small pressurised domes used to produce food.  It would be preferable to automate these to the greatest degree possible.

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