Posts by BWhite

BWhite · Not So Free Chat

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/election200 … tml]Advice for Blair

and

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-20 … tml]Kicked in the ballots

Labour lost half of its majority of seats.

Look for Labour to start planning for Tony to "retire" early. Especially if they wish to win a fourth election.

It also looked certain that Labour would hang on to power with the lowest share of the vote in modern times — just 36 per cent.
Voters mauled Mr Blair over stealth taxes, his failure to control illegal immigration and the war in Iraq.
And he [Blair] admitted they wanted to cut his Government down to size.
He said: “It seems as if it is clear that the British people wanted a return of a Labour government with a reduced majority. We have to respond to that sensibly, wisely and responsibly.”

= = =

Bush, of course, would prefer the Tories to win but they are stuck at 1/3 of the voters. The Tory party would have supported Bush in Iraq even more vigorously than Blair.

Edited By BWhite on 1115391442

BWhite · Human missions

Ok lets slow down for a minute.
Nasa is an agency of which we would like it to be more business like but I think the only thing it can do is rein in the costs of its output of doing exploration for science.
As for business going to space both Lockheed and Boeing do have the rockets for cargo but nothing yet for manned flight. Where as the Russians do have both at this time. At relatively cheap prices if they could be bought. Which at this time only the rich can afford.
If one wants to go to stay in space with a permanent presence than the US most do the same. Building the CEV for Manned and cargo use would get the US back into the game since it will be no shuttle one ship do all.

Or, the private sector can just buy Russian rockets.

BWhite · Not So Free Chat

Spin it any way you like but three election victories by three 'warmongering political pariahs' .. it makes you wonder, doesn't it?
It's obviously part of a conspiracy hatched by the unholy axis of George Bush, John Howard and Tony Blair to establish themselves as a triumvirate and rule the world, thereby freeing them to plunder the resources of poor and oppressed peoples the world over.
Sorry, just trying the Kool-Aid.

And I believe this was the 70,000 post. You win a . . . ? ? ?

Blair has been seriously weakened. One report I saw said "no one" was happy with yesterday's election results.

That said Labour is by far the dominant party in the UK. Any backlash over Iraq will materialize from within the Labour Party, not through the Tories or the Social Democrats.

As I recall, many Brits very much like Social Democrat policy but find most Social Democrat politicians to be too naive to actually be given power. So: "Hold one's nose and vote Blair"

BWhite · Life support systems

http://www.supersky.com/nanocatalog/nan … og.pdf]Its almost off the shelf - - today!

Sandwich it between high performance plastic and there you go!

BWhite · Human missions

Cool Robert.
But, we have the tech? At what cost? Who will build it? What will be the *actual* cost? So we can send people to Mars, how does that help us? Why do we need to do this now, and quickly? What is the loss if it takes us 50 years instead of 10?
We still have a hard time getting things to Mars, humans going is vastly more complicated- how does that demonstrate we are ready? We have gone to the Moon, almost 40 years ago, how have we demonstrated we are capable of more?
We haven't.

Dude, its not really "we" and its not about NASA.

Space exploration is like a Dutch auction. As technology improves, the price and risk declines until someone steps to the plate and says, okay let me have a crack at it. Throw the pitch.

Maybe they all die. (Roanoke Island)

Then someone else will try.

BWhite · Human missions

For the record, it takes almost exactly the same amount of rocket fuel to drop 50 kg of rice on the Moon as it does to drop 50 kg of rice on Mars.
But how much fuel does it take to move the rice from the earth to the moon, then move it from the moon to mars?

Much more than Earth to Mars. :;):

BWhite · Human missions

Try to build a colony ship and launch from earth? Why would we do such a stupid thing? Your lunar base will be so expensive and take so long to build and maintain that we would NEVER go to mars.
Also, even though some of you support the colonization of any damn thing (space, moon, mars, asteroids, mars moons...sheesh!) outside the earth's orbit you are definately the minority.
Here is the main reason why the moon is so not needed. If you have already achieved earth orbit it takes a small amount of fuel to leave it and head off to mars then coast the whole way. So why would we use that fuel to go to the moon, use more fuel to land, then refuel just so we can then escape the moon's gravity?
It's insane, full of risk, and it would take up NASA's entire budget, not just for 50 years but forever since we would have to constantly resupply the moon bases with food and repair parts. If we build a moon base say goodbye to humans on mars in your lifetime.

For the record, it takes almost exactly the same amount of rocket fuel to drop 50 kg of rice on the Moon as it does to drop 50 kg of rice on Mars.

If the Moon has platinum, lets go get some.

If not, ignore the Moon and on to Mars.

BWhite · Not So Free Chat

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp … d=14804]An article that compares Iraq to post-Civil War Reconstruction in America's south.

The KKK actually got started with die-hard remnants of the Confederate Army and kept fighting for decades, until the North got exhausted and left. Can we compare the Sunni Baath who had been favored under Saddam with those who founded the KKK?

BWhite · Human missions

Sure it will.
Try to build a colony ship were you have to launch all the HABs from Earth.
Now try with the body of the HABs build out of Lunar iron-nickle, or Titanium, (not to mention radiation shielded by lunar regolith) and now you only have to launch the internal furnishings. You'll cut the number of Earth launches significantly.

This can be done in parallel. Moon-Mars needs to be one word, not two.

BWhite · Human missions

Why would it cost $100 million to tether a Soyuz to a Progress? Both ships are up there already, fully depreciated on the bean-counter ledger books. The spacecraft are FREE as we are merely adding tasks to vessels that have already finished their primary mission

Marginal cost would be the flight controllers and the tethers. But the staff at Korolev is on salary, I imagine.

= = =

Risk of cable failure? Use two, or three each independently capable of handling the load.

Edited By BWhite on 1115300676

BWhite · Human missions

I asked Dennis Wingo by email how he thought PGMs would be recovered and he said a solar thermal furnace could melt the different elements at different temperatures and thus separate them. I replied no, nickel-iron is a solid-solution; an alloy. If you heat it up, the nickel and iron won't separate via melting, they'll just melt together as a mixture at an intermediate temperature. So that aspect of his book needs further thought, I believe.

He overlooks the Mond Process which will strip off Ni & Fe. Western Michigan University in Kalamazoo did experiments with NASA funding. I posted the links earlier - - maybe a week or two ago.

The temperature and pressure needed for stripping out nickel were surprisingly mild.

Deposit the nickel by vapor phase deposition and you recover the CO for reuse and have pure nickel metal parts deposited on a mandrel. Again, only mild temperatures are needed to deposit the nickel. A company in Canada has largely perfected this process already and is fabricated large parts from nealry pure nickel.

Iron deposition is trickier.

= = =

google "finds-space Murali" - - for some reason, the page is down. The link worked a few weeks ago.

As I recall (I have a printed copy somewhere) Ni-Fe asteroid fragments literally dissolved in the presence of CO gas.

If pressure and temperature were properly controlled, the process could be restricted to extract either Fe or Ni giving pure carbonyl gas of either Ni or Fe. The PGMs remain behind, of course, and final processing may need to happen on Earth.

= = =

The missing link asserted that Ni(CO)4 forms exclusively at 75 C with a CO pressure of 10 atm. Not too extreme.

Ten atmospheres? 75C?

Heck, you could put Ni-Fe asteroid fragments in a giant bag of high performance plastic, pump it full of CO and siphon of the Ni(CO)4.

Find an impact site (use low lunar orbit sats to hunt likely asteroid impact fields) and then sift for fragments to digest.

Edited By BWhite on 1115303038

BWhite · Human missions

Mars: To build a new human civillization.
Of course. Be we'll go broke trying to do that launching from earth.

Moon won't help get to Mars.

Dennis Wingo has convinced me the Moon has reasons all its own, but helping us get to Mars isn't one of them.

BWhite · Human missions

Microwave ovens, teflon, Tang... No one gives a damn.
The real legacy of Apollo is the hundreds of documentaries, books and articles written in tribute, in awe, as we remember that we, as humans working together, could accomplish something so ubelievable.

I agree.

Moon: Only if we can mine it and make money. Otherwise, skip it.

Mars: To build a new human civillization.

BWhite · Human missions

NASA cannot do the Moon and Mars at the same time. Humanity can and should. I would like to see the platinum thing switched to the private sector ASAP.

Doing a Mars quasi-Direct with the crew transit ship built from 2 shuttle C++ and an EELV CEV is realistic IMHO. Mars Direct original with Ares might be shaved too tight. But no matter. Use the savings from NO Ares development to help fund operations.

Maybe there is NO platinum on the Moon. But Wingo did convince me. Terran platinum (in the west) is at two places Merensky Reef in South Africa (asteroid impact site) and Sudbury in Canada (asteroid impact site). More in Russia - - again asteroid impact sites.

If there is NO easily mined platinum, okay skip the Moon. BUT platinum mining is easily explained to the world's population as a good reason for going there. We gotta start getting something back, economically, for doing space exploration.

He3? Not for until we get fusion, which has been 20 years away for the last 50.

Lunar water? Nah. I see that as a dead end. Too hard to find and extract.

Lunar LOX? By itself, not worth it. But if we are mining platinum anyway, mining LOX is a no-brainer.

If we are minng platinum we can also fabricate HUGE amounts of pure nickel alloy since PGMs follow nickel in asteroids. Cannot get to the PGM without stripping off the nickel so use it, don't throw it away.

Heh! /rant

BWhite · Human missions

Ok, now to Platinum. I'll guess my post mentioning this was missing some bits (if not just missing), so:
There are no significant sources of plantinum on the Moon - excepting perhaps surviving in asteroidal material. Neither the Apollo nor Luna samples had detectable amounts of platinum. So, what I was saying (before it disappeared) is, other than Al, Si, O; H2O, Fe, and Ti (in some spots); and He3 - what does the moon offer?
By the way, I have not seen the Clementine data - I have it - just not looked at it yet (and reading it would be an adventure). Is there evidence for significant amounts of Pt there?
Ti alone I can see a use for, but it's still rather readily available here.
It is the abscence of the platinum and other asteroidal materials that indicate concentrated resources. The impacts have occured, but there does not appear to be any debris. This could really only have happened if the impacts where soft and the objects remained intact.
Why did apollo not find them, well it was not looking and apollo was such a cursory look at the Moon that it was the equivalent of Columbus landing in the Americas run up the beach pick a leaf and get back aboard and sail away. But even from this we have learnt a lot and we can learn a lot more, but we have to go back.

Can we call this the Wingo hypothesis? :;):

Millions of asteroids have struck the Moon. Just look, the evidence is everywhere. On Earth, higher gravity causes higher velocity impact causing the asteroids to pulverize to a greater degree. Rain, wind and other geological forces have also degraded the PGMS found in Ni-FE asteroids on Earth. However, it appears EVERY Terran source of platinum originates from an asteroid impact.

(Years ago my wife - - before she was my wife - - encouraged the selection of a 50% gold & 50% platinun wedding ring. Now, I know nearly for sure that this platinum is from an ancient asteroid strike. Cool! The gold might be original to Terra and deposited by an ancient volcano - - as best as my reading suggests.)

Astrobleme - - now that is a gorgeous word. All platinum coems from identified astroblemes.

Anyway - - if all Terran platinum comes from asteroids, prospecting lunar astroblemes is our best hope for lunar platinum. Lower gravity, no wind, no rain, little recent active geology means there is a terrific chance more or less intact Ni-Fe asteroid fragments can be simply dug up and processed.

For sure? Of course not. But it seems there is a good chance.

A 1000 kg intact fragment of an Ni-Fe asteroid will yield nickel carbonyl gas surprisingly easily. A Western Michigan University project proved this by digesting Terran fragments.

Until I read about Ni-Fe asteroids on the Moon, I was not a Moon-guy. He3 is too remote for now. Lunar water? Very far from certain. If the Moon is just for practice, then its touch and go and on to Mars, IMHO.

But IF lunar platinum exists, we can build a cislunar economy starting there.

BWhite · Martian Politics and Economy

>>>Quote
Both Communism and Capitalism are based on looting somebody, some nation or stealing from the land or some other type of theft.

As I recall, Gorbachev once said that capitalism and communism were exact opposites.

One system was man oppressing his fellow man and the other system was the reverse.

BWhite · Not So Free Chat

http://www.responsiblelending.org/]Predatory lending is part of how reverse Robin Hood actually works.

Rig the game so the little guy cannot get ahead. And of course, we need tort reform so the big banks are safe from lawsuits over this stuff.

Edited By BWhite on 1115232966

BWhite · Human missions

I will not give that up lightly, and in fact, can't responsibly do so, because it seems to me that any other solution for getting 100 metric tons to orbit is going to be more expensive that utilizing efficiently what we, NASA, already own."

Context, what context?

= = =

Uncrewed shuttle C++ cargo mode with an EELV medium CEV may be what he is leaning towards.

Edited By BWhite on 1115232715

BWhite · Not So Free Chat

Update on http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4514273.stm]Lyndie England

BWhite · Human missions

Have you seen http://aviationnow.ecnext.com/free-scri … 05045]this, GCNRevenger?

"As NASA administrator today, I already own a heavy lifter," Griffin said. "Every time I launch, I launch more than 100 metric tons into low orbit, which of course is what you need for returning to the moon. ... I will not give that up lightly, and in fact, can't responsibly do so, because it seems to me that any other solution for getting 100 metric tons to orbit is going to be more expensive that utilizing efficiently what we, NASA, already own."

BWhite · Human missions

Ahh, didn't know there was a "sneaky" way to view busted threads... Just trying to be helpful.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, we should do both the Moon base and a Mars base, and we can... just not at the same time. The only question is, which one first? Since NASA needs to learn to get back in the "going places" business, and the Moon would be materially useful as well as scientificly interesting (mega-Hubble-killer giant exoplanet-mapping scopes'), and could perhaps be useful for a persistant Mars presence (Lunar LOX in orbit to refuel cyclers)... The Moon ought to come first. Oh yeah, and the REAL head of NASA, GWB says so too.

But, if we go to the Moon without a plan to hunt PGMs and extract lunar LOX, then its a total waste of time & money.

BWhite · Human missions

Moon or Mars? Both!

Dennis Wingo is spot on: Moon: Save civilization here - - Mars: Spread civilization there.

Mars is a FAR better place to raise a family than the Moon.

Mars has FAR less strategic military value in the event of a late 21st century Terran global war meaning less chance space settlers get nuked as "collateral damage"

Mine the Moon. Live on Mars.

= = =

We =DO NOT= need the Moon to do Mars. However the Moon has attractions all its own.

Edited By BWhite on 1115225436

BWhite · Human missions

If reasonably intact Ni-Fe asteroid fragments are located, carbonyl digestion is a simple and relatively inexpensive way to strip off the Ni & Fe and thereby increase the PGM concentrations.

One side effect? Nickel carbonyl vapor deposition is low energy process that will allow fabrication of intricate metal parts.

BWhite · Human missions

Giving away the media rights for free surely won't help. The networks will be all too eager to resume their "reguarly scheduled programming" which will de-value public perceptoin of space exploration.

Didn't George Bush joke about this at his recent press conference? "Got to wrap this up, Survivor starts at 10:00" or something like that?

Unless we make Big Media our ally, they will be our enemy.

BWhite · Human missions

Two points:

Does http://exploration.nasa.gov/documents/r … pdf]Boeing favor L1 over LLO? see page 27

Mike Griffin is wary of http://www.spacepolitics.com/archives/0 … commercial fuel providers for the VSE.

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#926 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri IV - Continued from previous » 2005-05-06 08:48:43

#927 Re: Human missions » The reason to go to mars - Going to mars is not a waste of money » 2005-05-06 08:35:53

#928 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri IV - Continued from previous » 2005-05-06 07:54:02

#929 Re: Life support systems » Aerogel - don't build - your greenhouse w/o it » 2005-05-05 22:51:09

#930 Re: Human missions » The reason to go to mars - Going to mars is not a waste of money » 2005-05-05 20:30:15

#931 Re: Human missions » The reason to go to mars - Going to mars is not a waste of money » 2005-05-05 19:29:26

#932 Re: Human missions » The reason to go to mars - Going to mars is not a waste of money » 2005-05-05 17:58:23

#933 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri IV - Continued from previous » 2005-05-05 12:15:42

#934 Re: Human missions » The reason to go to mars - Going to mars is not a waste of money » 2005-05-05 08:29:33

#935 Re: Human missions » Artificial Gravity » 2005-05-05 07:41:21

#936 Re: Human missions » Some Corrective Lenses II - ...hmmm, another corrupt thread » 2005-05-05 06:23:23

#937 Re: Human missions » The reason to go to mars - Going to mars is not a waste of money » 2005-05-04 22:17:18

#938 Re: Human missions » The reason to go to mars - Going to mars is not a waste of money » 2005-05-04 21:36:11

#939 Re: Human missions » Some Corrective Lenses II - ...hmmm, another corrupt thread » 2005-05-04 21:33:12

#940 Re: Human missions » Some Corrective Lenses II - ...hmmm, another corrupt thread » 2005-05-04 17:00:31

#941 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » What kind of social system will be on Mars » 2005-05-04 13:05:02

#942 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri IV - Continued from previous » 2005-05-04 12:55:34

#943 Re: Human missions » Some Corrective Lenses II - ...hmmm, another corrupt thread » 2005-05-04 12:49:30

#944 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri IV - Continued from previous » 2005-05-04 12:23:36

#945 Re: Human missions » Some Corrective Lenses II - ...hmmm, another corrupt thread » 2005-05-04 12:07:33

#946 Re: Human missions » Some Corrective Lenses II - ...hmmm, another corrupt thread » 2005-05-04 11:17:55

#947 Re: Human missions » Some Corrective Lenses II - ...hmmm, another corrupt thread » 2005-05-04 10:37:20

#948 Re: Human missions » Some Corrective Lenses II - ...hmmm, another corrupt thread » 2005-05-04 10:34:40

#949 Re: Human missions » Is this advertising? - NASA to offer website sponsorships » 2005-05-04 09:20:18

#950 Re: Human missions » Post central for information on CEV IV - Before thread #3 melts down » 2005-05-04 08:36:57

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