New Mars Forums

Nice.

I value your decisions.  Here is my response:

You might notice the curtain, which might allow temperatures as I have speculated, in conjuntion with styraform tiles with concave cavites within which air bubbles might exist, where Houdini would be grateful to have a breath of air.  I might also add that duck weed might be able to live there if given light.

I expect that the pond would turn into a lake.

I have shown a "Dry Box" where you might suppose to grow dry land crops.  I suggest that a humidity 100%< might occur if the cold water of the bottom were used.

I understand that for a rise of 20 DegF, we might expect the humidity to drop from 100% to 50%.

As another feature, it might be expected that a rock formation would resist the grinding force of the glasier.  In that case if the glasier were slow moving then tunnels into soft rock might also yield caves where dry land things might grow.

However, don't let me inhibit solar greenhouses.  I have my own notions, I don't want to stifle the innovation of others.

Please, others, do speculate.  I will respect.

A glacier 1/2 mile thick the size of Los Angeles such as what is thought to exist in Hellas would last quite a long time, being used in the manner you suggest, especially with water consirvation.  Mars would likely be all the way terraformed before it ran out.

I suggest that at convenience, that a feature would be added.  That would be to line the bottom with a layer of rogolith, for a 32 foot deep pond I suggest about 3 feet thick.  (Sorry about the non metric, I think faster native).

That would serve several purposes.
1) Fresh water at 39 degrees F is heavier than fresh water at 32 degrees F.  Therefore the rigolith being an insulator, the bottom of your pond can rise to 39 degrees maximum before the water starts turning over.  (Don't want that, it would melt the ice).

2) It would serve as ballast.  If the pond had an ice floor, there is always a chance that a block of ice would break loose from the lakebed and float up, with the pond water flowing beneith it.  So the 3 foot layer of rigolith is ballast to hold it down.

3) Oxidation.  Substances in a reduced state introduced to the bottom of the pond will "Rust".  This will produce Hydrogen.  Plants growing in the pond will produce hydrocarbon solids, and Oxygen.  Unless the situation is reduced, you cannot have an increase in hydrocarbon mass.  You could if you threw away some of the Oxygen, but why do that?  We would want hydrocarbon mass to make plastics from I am thinking.  So plastics from rusty iron, or other poorly oxidized rigolith.

What comes next here is a trial balloon.  Don't get too warped about it.

I suggest that water from the pond could be boiled in the daytime using solar concentrators.

The steam could be piped under the ice.  Remember that the pressure just under the ice would be perhaps 100 Millibars or more.  This means that the steam will be rather warm, not hot.  It could drive a turbine in a lamp unit to produce electricity to light the lamp.  The light would shin down on the pond floor perhaps 20 feet below?  (The water would have to be exceptionally clear for this to be a good plan)  Perhap the plants would be in plantes attached just below the light fixture.

The warm steam would quench into 32 degrees Faharenheight water and if controlled properly, would leave a residue at 39 degrees Fahrenheight that would fall to the pond floor because it would be heavier than the 32 degree water.

I am thinking of plastic pipes for the steam and condensate.  That is because plastics will print in a 3D printer easier, and the steam temperatures might be low enought that they would not be damaged.

Utilizing this method, it becomes obvious that there is a real danger that the pond will overheat, so;

Ammonia and water mixture carries heat from the pond floor (Don't know that plastic pipe will put up with that, so that could be a problem).
Ammonia is boiled out of the mixture and passed through a turbine at the surface, where the Ammonia is recondensed, and sent back the the mixture.
This of course will be most powerful in the night and during winters.  I am afraid it will requre serious radiators, not plastic ones.  Not certain, but thinking so.

And then there is the possiblity that you can have enclosures inside of the lake, and send some of the steam into them to warm them up, and so those could easily be at higher temperatures than 39 Degrees F.

Final thought.  You could make a styraform tile block, and apply it to the bottom of the ice, inside of the pond, and it would eventually freeze to the ice.  Of course styrfoam can get waterlogged, so some work needs to be done there.

And even more final those styrafoam blocks can have air pockets on their bottoms.  Some parts of the styrafoam blocks deeply submirged, and some having air pockets in concave cavities.

GW Johnson said:

I think Lewis might have mentioned this as well.  OK.  I will run with it.  (To be honest I have old archives where I suggested similar for canals to convey water, but I would prefer to lay down a vapor barrier under the soil and perhaps a layer of styrafoam).

However I don't want to be an idea moocher, so other than as a passing comment the above is if little significance.

I see that you are intending to employ native materials.  Ice, water from ice and regolith.
Can we call this the minimum method?  Otherwise to get fancy a large amount of fancy manufactured materials are required for the structure itself.

Later, I would indeed utilize fancy materials, which would allow much higer water temperatures, but you do have a formulation which minimises the burden of such effort intense materials.

I might add that in addition to wired electiric lights, there are the options, of fiber optics to convey solar energy in, and also pneumatic transfer of power to light fixtures with on board turbine generators.  (That way no current carrying conductors in water.  Just sealed lights, and a pressurized air supply, and a pipeline to drain that back to atmospheric vacuum).

Or Steam from solar concentrators, which would push steam through pipes to turn turbines in submirged lighting fixtures.

Or if the lights were LED's and did not give off much heat, then they could be embedded in the bottom layer of the ice, just above the water, and then the wires could indeed be "Dry" inside of "Conduit" inside of slots cut in the ice, and accessable for repairs by digging in the rigolith and cutting the ice.

Further there is the option of Chemosynthisis, where chemicals such as Oxygen and Methane would feed organisms.

I see one weakness in your plan.  The Regolith, has a higher specific gravity than the Ice.  However Trucks drive out on icy lakes and get away with it.  With good engineering and a thick coat of ice it most likely will pass OK.

However if it were a concern, I suggest a trench like pond, so that the ice layer can "Grip" the sides and be stabalized that way.  Even beyond that a serpintine trench which would likely do even better (Not sure). 

The point is, I think we finally have an point of agreement,  a path forward with this.  I am very happy.

Putting up with 0 Degrees C may be a neccessity at first, but as I have said when the economy becomes larger and luxury is more available, I suggest that the rigolith be mixed with styrafoam, to make the mixture have a specific gravity of .9 which matches water ice, and I suggest that large lakes could be the order of the day.  In that case, those rigolith covered lakes could easily have enclosures of materials which would allow temperatures inside well within the comfort zone of humans without suits, and also suitable to any fresh water aquatic life desired.

I also mention in passing that I have read of efforts to make underwater breathing apparatus, which can extract disolved Oxygen from water.  This might be a useful tool.

Thanks for your comments.

Just some links about Mars Ice for those inclined to investigate:

The phrase I googled: "Thickness of subsurface ice on Mars"

http://www.planetary.brown.edu/pdfs/3966.pdf

http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~norb1/Papers … eages2.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 3586901703

http://thesis.library.caltech.edu/1586/ … apter1.pdf

http://www-geodyn.mit.edu/mitrofanov.grl07.pdf

http://www.mendeley.com/research/global … -ice-mars/

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2010/03 … 267625725/

This one:
http://www.universetoday.com/58518/mro- … rtian-ice/

CO2:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/300/5 … 1.full.pdf

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 … 05781.html

http://elements.geoscienceworld.org/con … 1.abstract

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1986Icar...67....1F

http://science.nasa.gov/media/medialibr … TAGGED.pdf

http://www.astronomynow.com/news/n1003/05ice/

http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/June02/MarsGRSice.html

GW Johnson

I think that baisically we are on a similar page.

You want the glass full, and I am trying to deal with it only partially full.

However, to fill it first comes a point where it is partially full.  So I am trying to find alternate methods for agriculture for that period of time where Mars is only partially terraformed, or initially terraformed.  Economics will not pay for the terraforming of Mars, unless it can be utilized effectively during the terraforming process.

It will have to pay it's own way.   There will have to be a point in time where agriculture of some kind is possible in one place on Mars above others, and I think that could be Hellas, so I use it for my example.

I have suggested as my most optimistic proposal, uncovered irrigated fields.  If Mars were terraformed to have 23 Millibars in the bottom of Hellas, then indeed ice water could be squirted onto Reindeer Moss fields, and it would in fairly short time evaporate from the surface, but some droplets would be retained in the soil.  Eventually they would evaporate.  In fact right now, if the soil in the bottom of Hellas had ice in it and you heated it, droplets of liquid water can persist for a time inside of the soil.  But yes they will evaporate in time.  The water will not boil however at 11.78 Millibars and 0 Degrees C, or if it were even colder salt water.

In the deserts of California, Colorado water can irrigate fields with water.  It does not boil, but in the hot sun it will evaporate.  Droplets of water will persist in the soil, but will eventually evaporate.  It does not boil at 1010 Millibars and a temperature of 90 Degrees C.

So I have to say that that it is mechanically possible.  You are correct, water is unstable.  It also is in California.

So, the next important factor is Economics, or Practicality, whichever you might prefer.

I have suggested irrigation water from the ground, and then the Glaciers in Hellas, and then the South Polar Ice Cap.

Practicality and Profit would determine if it were to be done, the movement of sufficient water to the bottom of Hellas. 

As for the choice of an open field or a covered field, that is also based on economics and practicality.  The value of the water.  If its expensive water then consirving it matters.  A covering which retains mositure might make economic sense.  Also, if a temperature above freezing cannot be achieved in an open field, then a covering is also desired.  And of course there is the matter of Ultra Violet light.  If no ozone layer exists, then a covering is a must, and it must protect the fields from UV damage.

Reindeer Moss exposed to atmosphere is actually an ambitious and perhaps poor choice relative to Moss which will grow under water, and likely under water which is under ice.

So for the purposes of water consirvation, I prefer ponds covered by Ice, and that ice covered by a vapor barrier, and then the mechanical enclosure must also at a minimum provide UV protection. 

Beyond that if it is economically correct, such enclosures might have a greater internal pressure, but then if they leak that leakage takes moisture with it.

In the bottom of Hellas, a large plastic bag filled with ice water will not boil, and will not evaporate beyond the permeability of the plastic to moisture, or if the bag should be punctured.  (Here I am presuming that the bag is kept at 0 Degrees C).  The pressure inside of such a flexible bag should be ambient atmospheric pressure + the pressure of the static water column.  So for the best present case, 11.78 Millibars + whatever debth of water you are measuring the pressure at.

The question is can enclosures be created which are as effective as a plastic bag?  Another is can make up water be gathered at an economic cost to replace losses that are indeed assured to occur?  And finally are the plants that can be grown of a reasonable economic value to justify the effort?

Selective breeding and genetic engineering may alter the answers.

Finally I want to point out that the reason to have a layer of ice is so that the surface is colder than 0 Degrees C.  This depresses the vapor pressure, and reduces the evaporation rate.  At the same time it increases the pressure of the liquid water, a sort of counter pressure suit for a pond.  Yes if exposed, it will evaporate to the atmosphere, but be less inclined to do so than open water.

If for some reason an enclosed pond were created at the bottom of Hellas, then I estimate that for about 11? months, the pond might be frozen solid, and the ice surface temperatures would be very low.  This would be winter.  It is possible to add heat to allow liquid water, to utilize the scaps of sunlight that would occur in the winter, but the Summer would be the favored time to utilize sunlight with long days, and shorter nights.  So 1/2 of the year, water would be easily consirved with a moisture cover.  Then for most of the summer, the pond would be ice covered ice water.  Then if it were favorable to the plants inside, perhaps a few weeks in the summer, the surface ice could be allowed to melt.  At this time period the risk of loss of water to atmosphere would be largest, but then that would be the logical time when the moisture barrier would have previously refirbushed to it's maximum effectiveness.

If irrigation water is available, then these are economic and not purely mechanical questions.

If I have expressed any science errors here I prefer to know about it.

Thanks for the info.

Since this is on topic more or less, and you guys would have high powered thinking as I might access, before I wander off (And I really do want to take a long break),
I have a notion, and some has already been mentioned, I would feedback both possitive and negitive on it.  It is not that I think I have some wonderful new idea, it is that my internal knowledge is not sufficient to settle the questions, and some here might put some weight to it.

I mentioned a pulse rocket, I guess it could make sense if you split water that you had on board of a orbital rocket, and then wanted to burn it for propulsion.  I presume pressurized storrage tanks, filled up and then a pulsed burn.  (In this case the notion is that you would want to avoid the complications of storring cryrogenic fluids.  The strength I see is that you can wait between pulses, and perhaps not need engines with an elaborate cooling system. (No channels with liquid Oxygen and Liquid Hydrogen).  Of course those channels also serve to heat the burnable gasses, which I suppose might be wanted.  The other deficiency might be that the thermal shock of a pulsed engine might fatigue the nozzle.  Even so if humans wanted to manufacture rockets at remote locations where a reasonable energy source existed, and plenty of water, this rocket would be perhaps simple enough for them to manufacture off of Earth.

Plasma Engines as I have seen in the literature have had great advancement, they apparently have static Magnetic Nozzles?  I am not sure but I believe that they typically do not handle water or Oxygen, but very likely might superheat Hydrogen to a plasma.  I understand that Plasma is magnetic.  However, the dynamics of magnetic plasma structure elude me.  I do know that if plasma touches solid matter, or perhaps gas that is significantly colder, it will quench, and also very likely alter/damage a solid structure.

So, my weird question evolves to:
1) Can you generate a chemical burn pulse.
2) Can you then add energy by some means, to turn the tail end of that to plasma.
3) Can you eject the magnetic plasma using magnetic means.  That is can you use an increasing magnetic repulsive pulse to push that magnetic plasma away even harder, therefore generating thrust.

Nozzle<Chemical Burn<Plasma Expansion<Magnetic Repulsion / Leaky Tokomack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A sort of Plasma Ejecting Mass Driver.   

It might help me to have a stronger mind for space propulsion if I know what my wrong thinking is in this matter.
Help would be appreciated.

Well about vapor pressure:

www.vaxasoftware.com

http://www.vaxasoftware.com/doc_eduen/qui/pvh2o.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(dat … se_diagram

Well I guess that will do.  As I have seen it, it appears that if Hellas eventually and optimistically had a 23 Millibar pressure then 70 DegF/23 DegC would be the boiling point of water.  So, having ice water or even water at 39 DegF/3.89 DegC is quite reasonable, and even higher could be considered.  So, an effective vapor barrier would not be used to suppress boiling with internal pressure relative to the external pressure, but would be a vapor barrier to inhibit evaporation.

In current terms it is my opinion that water kept at 32 DegF / 0 DegC would be stable in the bottom of Hellas, if given a vapor barrer, to keep the dryness and the winds of the atmosphere from stripping off the water.  Of course it is desired to let the photons in to promote photosynthisis.

And if you would criticize that then consider that sea life including plant life I believe, can in fact work in water considerably colder than that if it is salt water.  Therefore the vapor pressure of that solution would be less than 6.1 Milliabars.

In fact I believe that the current maximum pressure at the bottom of Hellas is > 11.466 Millibars, and that 11.466 Millibars allows for a boiling point of 48.2 DegF.

So, I am rather inclined to say that I was not Optimistic about what could be accomplished! I was consirvative!

Yes, and there is more, I don't care if the ice melts for a few weeks in the summer.  Actually that would mimic the Arctic Tundra pond environment very well.

In fact that could allow for emergent plant life.  However, now my problem is how do you keep alive and active a polinator type insect or other mobile animal that could polinate.  I know that the Mona Loa bug on the top of Hawaii can live well below freezing, but how to give it resperation.  (And of course it is not a polinator).
In the Hymilayas are insects with antifreeze which also can work well below freezing.  Still how does a insect survive on 12 or less Millibars of Oxygen/Nitrogen mix?
My estimation is that is it unsolvable, but I will still think about it.

One thing I will not think about is Misquitos on Mars.  I will swat them if they exist.

Various pre-positioned propulsion segments, to facilitate travel by spacecraft.

1) Solar Steam Rocket.
2) Burn as you split propulsion.  In otherwords, with solar energy or nuclear energy, split the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen and do not store it cryrogenically, but only in pressurized containers, and when you have enough do a pulsed burn.
3) Store liquids, your Hydrogen Peroxide/Water solution for an Oxydizer, and perhaps Methane, if Carbon is available along with water.
4) Full Cryrogenic, Hydrogen and Oxygen stored liquid.

The idea I might see is they could gather the goodies, and even process them robotically and rather than returing that to Earth, pre-position them where travelers can latch on to them, and use them for their journey, and also for some extra consumables.

This could really open up Mars, and the real Asteroid belt.

After a tank like that was used, perhaps it would fly back to Earth orbit using electric propulsion, and be referbished for another mission.

Tanks could be loaded with water and prepositioned around Mars as well, if that technology did work because it should work for small objects near Mars as well shouldn't it?

If they could provide that for a Mars Mission, surely the sponsors of such a mission would pay rather well for the service.

And yes there are the valuable metals to bring home as well.

I have no reply as to a spacecraft, but if we targeted something like that with solar concentrators, and place a mixture of water steam and CO2 on it, could hydrocarbons be generated, and diluted in the upward rushing stream of atmosphere.  Greenhouse gasses?

Thanks for all the patience. And thanks for the tip. 

Tented fresh water pond.

Related to a degree to the "Antarctic Dry Valley Lake", which in other places I have proposed, is a much more humble proposal.

Dig a ditch, and put in it some means to keep the water from draining.  If it is in ground with ice as places on Mars might provide, then the permafrost might do this.

Put a tent with UV protection over that.  It should also help to keep liquid water or ice from evaporating out of the enclosure.

On Earth, fresh water with ice over it can have water temperatures as high as 39 degrees Fahrenheight.  Higher than that and the water starts turning over.

For this "Ditch-Pond" I might prefer a layer of ice.  That ice can be very clear.  Perhaps 1 inch, 3 inches, 6 inches, a few feet.

If a water source were available, then this mode of aquaculture is possible.

I could be wrong but I think that on Mars a layer of ice 1.2 feet thick should add a pressure of 10 millibars, so the pressure at the bottom of such an ice layer would be in the bottom of Hellas somewhat above 20 millibars.  So the amount of disolved gases could be less than or equivalant to that before it would come out of solution.  Nitrogen content could be elivated, if that would favor an organism.  A certain amount of Oxygen could be kept in those waters, for organisms which require Oxygen for their motabilism when the sun is not shining.

Fertilizer could be added of course.

I am sure simple micro-organisms could grow in that, and perhaps some scheme could be cooked up to use them for food, or some other resource.

However, I would much prefer that a complex green plant be found which would be able to live at the bottom of such a "Trench-Pond".  I don't think that humans are very fond of ice water, and of course on most places on Earth most fresh water ponds are covered with snow if it is winter, so the solar flux is very reduced.

However, I am guessing that somewhere on the planet might be found such a plant.

Further, if this aparatus were to overheat, it could be cooled with an Ammonia/water coolant, and that boiled to generate electricity.  Of course to make that pay, the installation would have to be very large.

If not the cooling system, then shades might be used in the summer.

Louis said:

"Hamster balls".  That would be a possible expansion of the jars, more mobile, able to cover more surface, more automated.

I have also thought about a robot gardener inside of the containers, lets say for duckweed, if you had a subchamber which was on the dark side, and cool or cold, refrigeration or a freezer, and so the robot takes duckweed and refirigerates it or puts it in the freezer and lets more duckweed grow.  Something like that.  That concept could also be upgraded to other vegtibles as well.  Perticularlly if the bottles had an influx of nutrients.

However, it is perhaps best to start small with hand carry bottles, (Maybe a two wheel cart or a wheelbarrow), and then as the population rises move towards larger devices, and permanent installations such as your canyon with walls, floor and roof.

Perhaps for some produce the small bottles would be kept, but not so much for plants that require polinators.  Those would be best grown in the device you have mentioned.

So I can think of four lines of logic for growing plants:
1) Inside the habitation, most likely with artificial lights, but perhaps a few plants in the shelter windows, this being done for pyscological reasons as well as for the food.
2) A batch process with "Bottle Terrariums", because this could be a practicle way to expand agriculture in the beginning and their may be a few plants that would do well with this.
3) Your covered canyon, since, there are some plants that would be best grown in Earth simulated normalicy, with polinating organisms.
4) Tented experimental ice water irrigation, most likely at the bottom of Hellas, to begin to develop an organism which can be of economic value, and might be more and more adapted to such an environment.
5) Covered water enclosures, such as an artificial Antarctic Dry Valley lake, but I will do a post on a fresh water pond, which would be in the same family.

As for 1 or 3, I have read that the "Bananna" has everything a human needs to survive.  I cannot confirm that but it is an interesting notion.

I will talk further in another post about tented ice water irrigation.

Well to be honest, I am not a big fan of big domes.  Not at this time.

I think that quarters should be safe, and that adding too much window space for plant life endangers the lives of people and would require constant vigilance and testing and repairing to maintain air pressure.  I also think that the construction costs of effort would be prohibitive until later in the estabilishment of the culture.  I also think that high structures invite slip and fall injuries.

Yes, such "Greenhouse" kits could be delivered at great expense from Earth, no, they would not maintain very safely or in a cost effective way.

Yes they could eventually be constructed from materials native to Mars, but still the amount of effort for the payoff does not seem to me to make them a prudent investment.

I believe that quarters could have small specialty gardens, with windows, but preferably with indoor lighting.  This would be done in part for maintaining phychological heath for the settlers.

Otherwise, I am inclined to consider a batch process for gardening, for a number of reasons.

1) With plastics and 3D printers, mass production of large bottles could occur.  Repitition in the making of the same bottle.
2) The bottles could also be converted into terrariums.
3) The bottles can be loaded up as terrariums.
4) The bottles can be sprayed with liquid glass for protection.
5) The bottles can be put outside.
6) The bottles can have a protective tent outside that they are put in, the protective tent would have also been sprayed with liquid glass.

Each container would have it's own pressurization and stock of chemicals.  Perhap part of the bottle would be occupied by decaying organic matter and Mushrooms, and the other part by green plants.

I think that this would be a good first expansion of gardening abilities.

Other needed parts are:
Plastic poles for tent poles.
A reflective plastic sheet on the bottom of the tent, where more sunlight is reflected to the bottles to make up for attenuation and also that sunlight is dimmer on Mars.
Water pillows.  Pillows of sterile water, put also into the tent to help keep off freezing temperatures at night.

Crazy?

Get a pepsi bottle, a clear one, empty it, take the label off.  Now think about sizing it up.

Beyond that my next expectation would be to have a 6 foot nominal "Mold" and to have a plastic printer print sections that can be socketed into each other, so as to make a very long tube, one that even humans could walk into.  Each section glued to the other, and then perhaps that attached to an airlock.  A person entering such a structure might still consider a counterpressure suit.

Anyway here are some connected websites that might help make it seem possible.

http://www.mobot.org/jwcross/duckweed/n … sition.htm

http://tealco.net/window_edible_herb_garden.html

http://herbcompanion.com/Gardening/HERB … GLASS.aspx

Now before you go off into giggle fits, remember that the bottles are also bottles, and there will be a need for bottles to store chemicals.  If more than is needed are created, and they can be used to grow some food, then it is worth considering.

And I also favor a plastics intensive industrial base because I anticipate that such a process will naturally leak greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere as a by product.

http://www.pallensmith.com/articles/terrarium

Finally I anticipate a large "Humididore", in the bottom of Hellas, mostly unpressurized, and yet capable of allowing a "Crop" to be wattered with ice water.  Most likely a tundra grass or something like that.  Failing that then moss or linchens.  Any boil off would have to be recaptured and condensed.  Anyway, that "Tent" would most likely be a plastic tent with spray on glass.  It would be a step in the right direction, towards a someday outdoors farming effort when the bottom of Hellas had a pressure of 20 Millibars or more.

Other pressurized structures that humans can be in?  Large cornfields for instance?  I am not thinking that that is a great notion untill the "Martians" get their "Sea Legs" and invent new technologies, neccessity being what it is.