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#9126 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The Interplanetary Economy- My Take » 2013-01-02 01:46:00
Just in case I have somehow stimulated some bad energy, I want to state that it was my intention to visit only for the Holidays. Of course I sense that this is probabbly not that much about me.
I have no intention to devote the psychic energy necessary to maintain here, and I actually have a very hard time relating, the communications are often odd. Having a common mode of transfering thoughts. A lot of lost in translation going on I think.
So, for my part, it's all for the better. I just wish I could have snuk through just a little more gracefully. But oh well.
Be peaceful.
#9127 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The Interplanetary Economy- My Take » 2013-01-01 11:54:44
Happy New Year
Since I am not a part of the solution, and I don't wish to oppose you, I will get out of the way.
I hope you and Terraformer and others can do something clever and new, suited to your new generations, and I hope it works well. Good Luck.
#9128 Re: Human missions » Sustainable Access to Mars: Interplanetary Transportation Architecture » 2012-12-31 18:08:39
I have no special notion to push, I am just throwing spitballs at the wall to see if anyting can stick.
Nuclear with thorium would be OK with me, because it is quite possible to make sure that you have very little dangerous material in the reactor, or at least that is what I thought I read.
I am just thinking however even for that vehicle it might still be prefered to have efficient robots place ice blocks along the routes. I think it is implied that you also do not object to that.
Time will tell, I have always felt that the space program has an evil nanny, that puts the pillow over the babies head when it appears that it might be about to start up.
But little by little, human abilities are advancing. Maybe some day they will reach a "Critical Heat Level" and suddenly it will make all the sense "out of this world" to get going with the various things, you have mentioned.
Bye GW
#9129 Re: Terraformation » Venus » 2012-12-30 21:19:59
Well time will tell, and those with ears will hear.
GI genaration. Yes actually they were pretty great. I have not quarel with them what so ever. But they had actually run to the end of their means, so I guess you have to also say that the Silent and the Baby Boomers did something that was needed to reset the machine. To bad for the 13's though. Or maybe it's all balony. By the way thanks to you and the other guy. I have to shut down, I overheat if I continue too long. A short visit by me is sweeter.
#9130 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The Interplanetary Economy- My Take » 2012-12-30 15:02:01
I am always going to try to invent or improve and idea, in order to benefit economics. If that is accomplished, then the economic justification is improved.
Just today I was thinking about the skyhook idea. That is a relative of the space elevator you mentioned.
However personally I do not favor the space elevator or a skyhook that drops through the deep atmosphere to the ground. It is too much of a reach.
I was planning to go off and think about it for some time, what I am thinking of is not very well developed, and if I had time to think of it more, I might just drop it and not mention it.
Still, I will take the leap. The worst that can happen is you will just say some things I don't like, and we will part company. You can rest assured I have no reputation to be concerned about.
A large flywheel in orbit, perhaps interacting with the magnetic field. Perhaps the flywheel is partially made of the super strong materials that a space elevator tether would be.
A yoke with a tether connected to the axis of the flywheel with a "Interface Device" on the end (The hook). That hook having small rockets on it for fine tuning a "Interface" with a sub-orbital payload.
The tether spinning prograde to orbit motion.
The flywheel spinning retrograde. I am hoping that the flywheel could interact with the Earths magnetic field like a electic rotor in a motor where the Earth is the stator, but I havn't really thought that out very much at all yet. The intention would be to gain orbital momentum to compensate for natural process losses of orbital speed.
The "Interface" dropping only down to "Altitudes" where atmospheric heating will not be excessive.
The use of the spinning flywheel, perhaps to allow the retrograde "Orbit" of the tether/hook assembly to change at different points in it's circular spin. The desire would be to allow it to dwell longer as it dipped downward.
The dwelling would be accomplished by a magnetic clutch, to apply retrograde flywheel motion to the tether.
Of course there will be complications of motions and whiplash and that sort of thing, but if accomplished in some better variation, then I would hope that a payload would be delivered to it by a sub-orbital rocket.
I think the advantages would be that;
The suborbital rocket would have a gauranteed return to Earth (Whole or in pieces).
The heating problem should not be as severe as a return from full orbit I believe.
Intercept would be tricky. The flywheel would maybe be able to make the hook dwell longer. The intercept hook would have rocket engines to maneuver. The rest would be up to the sub-orbital rocket, and co-operation, to exchange a payload, to abort, or to have a disastor.
Another alternative would be to dip the "Hook" into the atmosphere, and fill a tank with atmopheric gasses. Of course the relative speeds have to be reasonable between the hook and the atmosphere, but actually a relative motion of 100, or 200 miles per hour could facilitate a compression process, but of course how to you dump the heat? That requires radiators, which of course have mass.
I do not know at this time if a useable relative speed could be achieved.
As I said I have had all of 3 or 4 hours to have intermittant thoughts on it. By the way I have a bit of dislexia, don't be surprised if my spin motions might be wrong. But you should be able to get the idea.
As for finances? This is all speculative. So are the finances.
One day a spark will find enough fuel to ingnite a justifiable business process or it won't.
I may live 20 more years or I won't.
I don't have a firm plan for what I will try to do in the next 20 years, just some ideas, and no gaurantees.
Maybe you will hate this post the most of all. If so, then I guess we are done talking. I then have nothing to offer you and am just a disruption of what you want to accomplish.
#9131 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The Interplanetary Economy- My Take » 2012-12-30 14:27:14
Settle down friend.
I appologize, but it should be noted that your post was somewhat lonely before I uglied it up.
Yes, that book is only a book and the contents not proven. However, if it has some truth, then the ones who will do the hero work are in grade school, nurseries, and not out of the womb yet.
As for me, according to that book, I belong to the "Prophet" generation. That does not mean that I am a good one, or that I will be right. But I breath air, I move, and perhaps it will turn out that it would be better that I could not keyboard. But it is my responsibility to try to be helpful. I am not likely to do it the same way the younger generations do it. Nor do expect to own it.
But your crew will just have to notify me if you think I am not helpful here. In reality, I was only making a short visit, and these follow-ups are just because it would be unfair not to allow you to dispute what I say.
The wheels of time continue to turn, and the ones who actually might go to these imagined futures will be as different from you as you are from me.
If that author knows what he is saying then they will be very team orientated, and will not tollerate dishonesty. They will be for big corporations and unions. They will be very materialistic. Completely the opposite of the baby boomers, and incedently our mirror twins.
But then maybe it is just another silly book.
The process of moving into space will occur quickly or slowly or not at all. I can't mandate anything. But as technological capabilitys advance, at some point it is likely that there will be a generation like the GI generation, I just happen to think that they will behave much like the people who put us on the Moon.
If I have missed your point I am sorry. I just don't see any harm in looking at the positive and patiently waiting with hope, and trying to make suggestions when it seems possible that I might add something.
If you find that this is harmful to the purposes of this web site, then tell me, and I will respond in a different and mush less disruptive manner.
#9132 Re: Terraformation » Venus » 2012-12-30 14:04:17
The only piece missing is financing. Some technological method would almost surely exist, but who would be given the rights to own Venus, and to "Improve" it and to profit from then selling an improved Venus?
If someone has a financial motivation and the technological means, then I think yes.
#9133 Re: Terraformation » Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars. » 2012-12-30 13:43:19
Certainly your skeptisism is justified. It is appropriate that the idea should be challenged.
I do not propose to gaurantee a positive result, just a method of leverage that can be considered and who knows, made to work by further innovation.
I will say again however, that if the experiments by the Germans are true, it may be possible to implant lichen and cyanobacteria into the cracks of the rocks in the rift valley without any terraforming, and to hope that they can take hold. No gaurantee there either, just some positive indications, unless my interpretation is too optimistic, or I have not understood what is implied.
I believe that the present content is 1/13,000th (Estimate) of what the Earth atmosphere contains? But if it is already true that enough moisture exists, to water lichen or cyanobacteria in the cracks of rocks, then any improvement may help such an implant to more than survive but maybe even to thrive. So starting with the notion that a liquid phase may be possible to exist for 30 to 60 seconds twice each equitorial day, and also the fact that lichen can absorb mositure from frost even before the liquid phase, there is some reason to hope that an alteration of a microclimate at a particular location can be considered, perhaps an improvement in average amount of moisture.
I did mention ice fogs. The trick would be to puncture any stratification. I am only guessing that if you could cause a condensation to ice fog with particles in the higher atmosphere, you would also have to disrupt stratification, perhaps a descending plume of Phobos particles could initiate that. If a leak in a stratification were to occur with a descending flow, pressurization would heat it, so it would be neccessary for that heat to be vented off as infarred radiation. I think that could happen at night. It gets really cold I believe. The moment the ice fog turned back to vapor, much of the heat would dissapate to the universe. I might even hope for something like sleet, which in the thin Martian atmosphere, would drop like hailstones.
But there again perhaps I do not understand the Martian atmosphere and am projecting my understanding of the Earths atmosphere.
As I have said, I think it is an avenue to consider, and after all the objective would be to concentrate a pool of planetwide moisture down to a specific location of the surface. While it is true that the atmosphere is thin and contains much less moisture than that of the Earth, you would be drawing from the whole upper atmosphere over time, and trying to drop it into a portion of the rift valley. The natural atmospheric circulation would replenish the upper atmosphere on a daily basis I am thinking.
This is speculative, and I do not have the intellectual tools or the scientific information to argue very well on it I am more acting on what information I have and a degree of intuition (I hope).
Further speculation:
I do not know if the nighttime of the equator gets cold enough to condense CO2 if it were seeded with particles, but perhaps a variation of this would be to try to nucleate CO2 ice first, and try to have that drop down to collect H20 condensation ice, and by that hope to create particles that will drop quickly to the surface. During the dropping, compressive heating would be dissapated both by radiation of heat, and by the vaporization of the CO2 Ice. If this variation would not work for the rift valley, perhaps it would work in the winter in the Hellas depression, leaving a deposite of frozen water, perhaps in the southern part.
Am I wrong in rembering that such a deposition did occur at least once at one of the Viking sites?
#9134 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The Interplanetary Economy- My Take » 2012-12-29 11:47:28
What sort of Earth type things interest you that would also be benificial in space?
#9135 Re: Life support systems » Crops » 2012-12-29 11:42:06
I have moved some items from another thread I posted to:
Food:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicornia_europaea
Cooking oil, fuel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicornia_bigelovii
Edible, Remove salt from soils?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atriplex
Salt water tollerant rice, small fish compatible?
http://blog.jove.com/2012/05/24/japanes … ccelerator
These all tilt twords salty soil, I presume that salt could become an issue for some farming methods.
Also, if it is ever possible to procure water from an aquifer, I am inclined to think that that would be salty water.
Another reason for working with these would be that during the terraformation process, any early wet areas would likely be salty. Any streams would likely end in a temporary pool which would be salty. By working with these plants in pressurized
greenhouses, the opportunity would exist to selectively breed and/or genetically modify these to be even more acclimated
to a projection of what an early farmable environment would be.
#9136 Re: Human missions » Sustainable Access to Mars: Interplanetary Transportation Architecture » 2012-12-29 06:38:59
If this works, maybe it also changes things for other forms of propulsion.
http://sciencenordic.com/sailing-solar-winds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_sail
http://www.electric-sailing.fi/
Quote:
The electric sail is a new space propulsion concept which uses the solar wind momentum for producing thrust (Janhunen, P., Electric sail for spacecraft propulsion, AIAA Journal of Propulsion and Power, 20, 4, 763-764, 2004, Janhunen, P. and A. Sandroos, Simulation study of solar wind push on a charged wire: solar wind electric sail propulsion, Ann. Geophys., 25, 755-767, 2007). The electric sail is somewhat similar to the more well-known solar radiation pressure sail which is often called simply the solar sail.
A full-scale electric sail consists of a number (50-100) of long (e.g., 20 km), thin (e.g., 25 microns) conducting tethers (wires). The spacecraft contains a solar-powered electron gun (typical power a few hundred watts) which is used to keep the spacecraft and the wires in a high (typically 20 kV) positive potential. The electric field of the wires extends a few tens of metres into the surrounding solar wind plasma. Therefore the solar wind ions "see" the wires as rather thick, about 100 m wide obstacles. A technical concept exists for deploying (opening) the wires in a relatively simple way and guiding or "flying" the resulting spacecraft electrically.
The solar wind dynamic pressure varies but is on average about 2 nPa at Earth distance from the Sun. This is about 5000 times weaker than the solar radiation pressure. Due to the very large effective area and very low weight per unit length of a thin metal wire, the electric sail is still efficient, however. A 20-km long electric sail wire weighs only a few hundred grams and fits in a small reel, but when opened in space and connected to the spacecraft's electron gun, it can produce several square kilometre effective solar wind sail area which is capable of extracting about 10 millinewton force from the solar wind. For example, by equipping a 1000 kg spacecraft with 100 such wires, one may produce acceleration of about 1 mm/s^2. After acting for one year, this acceleration would produce a significant final speed of 30 km/s. Smaller payloads could be moved quite fast in space using the electric sail, a Pluto flyby could occur in less than five years, for example. Alternatively, one might choose to move medium size payloads at ordinary 5-10 km/s speed, but with lowered propulsion costs because the mass that has to launched from Earth is small in the electric sail.
The main limitation of the electric sail is that since it uses the solar wind, it cannot produce much thrust inside a magnetosphere where there is no solar wind. Although the direction of the thrust is basically away from the Sun, the direction can be varied within some limits by inclining the sail. Tacking towards the Sun is therefore also possible.
The electric sail won the 2010 Finnish Quality Innovation Prize among Potential innovations. The prize was handed out by the President of Finland Tarja Halonen on November 11, 2010.
I guess what I am after, is fuel depots, supplied by robotic verisions of a propulsion system having such an ability.
It would be OK to have them be combustable chemicals, but that is harder to maintain at a distance.
A block of ice in a sealed wrapper which was highly reflective should keep in orbit around Mars, or in intermediate orbits in locations between Earth and Mars. If the vehicle, which can propulse with water or chemicals could retank at intermediate locations, then the typical mass of the vehicle could be smaller, which may allow more payload to be carried, or a quicker trip or both.
In addition those fueling stations could have some emergency repair/survival capabilities, no specifics given for that.
#9137 Re: Terraformation » Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars. » 2012-12-29 06:09:04
I guess then there are three potential uses for the dust.
1) Change the chemestry of the upper atmosphere.
2) Try to increase the mositure content of a particular basin by moving moisture content downward with nucleation.
3) Dirty up the polar ice caps.
Having those three available to try, perhaps a combination would be workable.
3) Dirty up the polar ice caps, and increase the mean pressure from 6 mb to 11 mb. My understanding is that that would make it more possible for actual snow to fall. Also an almost double atmosphere should contain considerably more moisture.
2) Try to see if you can seed greater ice fogs or even snow into the Valles_Marineris
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valles_Marineris
1) Change the chemestry of the upper atmosphere, hoping to remove the chlorine, and allow some ozone to form.
And then seed Valles Marineris with whatever could grow there, lichens and cyanobacteria. If they could take hold, then their biological activities could further modify the environment, such as releasing Methane.
So by putting a magnetic launcher on to a moon you could easily try to do all three.
It might be however that for the fog seeding / snow seeding, a processed agent would want a manufactured agent specifically enchanced for it's purpose. Also the same for trying to bond Chlorine to a metalic material, and get it to fall down to the surface and stay there.
I really think that this would be a good avenue to continue on.
I have used the upper number of 11 mb, because I have read that the southern ice cap is thought to contain enough dry ice for that. I think it may be in a localized spot on the sourthern ice cap, so maybe it would make sense to really try to target that deposite.
I know that others believe that their could be as much as 200 or 300 mb availible from other sources. I would start with the 11 mb number, and be consirvative, and be pleased to be wrong later.
At 11 mb it is said that it will be possible for temporary streams and ponds to form on Mars. If that is the case then it would be possible for settlers to capture those temporary occurances into Cisterns. A primitive technology, or is it? It doen't hurt to use the tried and true, when you have it and it is the best.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistern
I am sure that there will already be people on Mars before all this happens, but I am guessing they would welcome water comming from precipitation and melting.
The layers of the lower atmosphere are hyper arid in the sense of how much water they hold, but at night they become saturated, and in some of the upper layers super saturated. If the fog seeding / snow seeding were to occur at night, and if the ice fog or snow were to descend, it would not evaporate until the sun came up I think. Ice fogs occur naturally at times in this location an other locations. I would only want to try the multiply the occurances.
The purpose would be to cause a dew to form on lichens after sundown, and a melting at sunup. The lichen only need 30-60 seconds to become hydrated. It has already been simulated by the Germans that this can occur even at the natural conditions existing today on Mars, and that Lichens can grow in the cracks of rocks.
If some UV protection were given and a greater mositure content, then I would speculate that this would make it easier for the lichen to distribute to many rocks and sand surfaces. And cyanobacteria.
But yes by all means, the polar ice caps.
#9138 Re: Terraformation » Venus » 2012-12-29 05:47:08
Well, it is really hard to be confident about a projection, because the psychology of Earth and "Younger" cultures will change, and the motivations therefore, and the technological paths as well. But I will speculate.
Once the Moon is usable, I would think it is only a matter of time before someone takes their affairs to Mercury. If the challenges there are mastered, the materials, and energy could push that location to the forefront of human affairs. I think it might be some time before it gets started because interest will be with the Moon, Mars, and the Asteroids.
But when Mercury gets going, I would think it would just keep growing to the limits of the volitile materials, and then in order for them to purchace them from the outer solar system, they would have to export metals I suppose.
Venus would perhaps come into the picture after that. If no other solution were availible, I would think the atmosphere would be mined. It does not particularly contain anything Mercury would want, so perhaps CO2 and Nitrogen would be exported.
I am presuming technological advancements, but I have wondered if the atmosphere of Venus could be microwaved to make it bubble up, and turn to a magnetic plasma, and if that could be collected magnetically. As I said, I am presuming technological advancements, and presuming a massive industrial capability both from Mercury and the Earth/Moon.
But Venus would be a latestarter if that is how it happens.
As for the human race deviating from it's current form, and having different motivations, that is a real possiblity.
#9139 Re: Terraformation » Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars. » 2012-12-28 17:54:17
Perhaps the outer cell structure could be replicated and mass produced in some similar enough form to do the job.
Anyway, I can hear the shadows calling. I intend to respond politely to those who responded in such a manner to my posts as may be decent behavior, and then to take another long break. I had just loaded up on ideas, and now that I dumped them, I get to move on. Nice talking.
#9140 Re: Terraformation » Venus » 2012-12-28 17:47:57
Yeah, I did think of the Hydrogen part, but I figured why spoil the party, just order some more Hydrogen when you run out maybe? For Venus, certain extra liberties shoud be granted, and a merit badge for even dairing to try. 
#9141 Re: Life support systems » Crops » 2012-12-28 17:41:37
That looks like a good one. I read up on it a bit.
#9142 Re: Life support systems » Crops » 2012-12-28 14:35:29
Nettles did not seem desirable to me, but it looks like they have somethings to offer and in one case extreem tollerance to low lighting conditions:
http://phys.org/news/2012-12-cave-nettle-china.html
I can't say if the species found above has all of the desirable characteristics mentioned below, but tollerance to .04% would be extreemly useful if that is the correct number. I don't know what the growth rates would be. Probabbly very slow in that lighting. Still of great interest I think.
Whatever means this plant has to do that would be useful if transferable to other plants. Particularly if the plants were to be grown in undergrounds such as lava tubes under artificial light.
Quote:
The plants do not grow in complete darkness but do grow in extremely low light levels, deep within the entrance caverns of the caves (sometimes, in as little as 0.04% full sunlight).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nettle#Use … of_nettles
Quotes:
Much historical evidence of use of nettles in medicine, folk remedies, cooking and fibre production relate to one species - Urtica dioica, but a fair amount also refers to the use of Urtica urens, the small nettle, which is preferred because it has more stinging hairs per leaf area than the more common species.[citation needed] It may be inappropriate and probably inaccurate to assume that all nettles exhibit similar properties in all cases, but where an action can be attributed to principles found in the species, such as histamine, choline, formic acid and silica, a rational basis for their use is still available.[citation needed] However, the fact that a medical action can be attributed to a single constituent does not imply that the entire plant will have the same action.
Arthritic joints were traditionally treated by whipping the joint with a branch of stinging nettles. The theory was that it stimulated the adrenals and thus reduced swelling and pain in the joint. Various studies support the effectiveness of this treatment.[2][3]
Various types of Nettle have been studied for their effects on prostate hypertrophy, diabetes mellitus, rheumatic disease, hypertension, gastrointestinal symptoms, osteoarthritis, diarrhea, rheumatoid arthritis, inflammation, pain,[4] constipation, gastrointestinal disease, headache, nausea, common cold, arthritis, asthma, bleeding, respiratory tract disease, allergic rhinitis, kidney disease, prostate cancer, skin disease and urinary tract disease.[5][verification needed][unreliable source?] In terms of allergies, nettle contains properties of an antihistamine to be used for treating reactions associated with the respiratory system.[6][unreliable source?] Nettles can also be used to make a tisane known as "nettle tea".
Prehistoric use:
Fabric woven of nettle fiber has been found in burial sites dating back to the Bronze Age.[7]Safety:
Though the fresh leaves can cause painful stings and acute urticaria, these are rarely seriously harmful. A possible exception is the Urtica ferox, the ongaonga or tree nettle of New Zealand. Otherwise most species of nettles are extremely safe and some are even eaten as vegetables after being steamed.[14]
Medicine, cloths, and maybe even food. That seems useful.
#9143 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The Interplanetary Economy- My Take » 2012-12-28 11:53:50
It does look good.
#9144 Re: Terraformation » Venus » 2012-12-28 11:25:38
I have a small thing to add concerning Venus which might help.
I think that mirrors placed in orbit could create hurricane like weather patterns. The purpose would be to poke a hole in the cloud cover, to let wavelengths out that otherwise cannot get out. Kind of like punching holes in the cover of a pot. It should draw dryer air up to displace the sulphuric acid clouds to the sides. The mirrors could be of a selected pigmentation so that they do not introduce solar energy below the cloud deck level.
It might also be possible to introduce asteroid dust into those openings, in the hopes that it would enter the sulphuric acid clouds at the sides and moderate the PH to a level more favorable to life, and additionally fertilize the hoped for H2O mists.
This might assist the notions of converting the atmosphere to organic solids. Maybe.
#9145 Life support systems » Electric Vegitation » 2012-12-28 10:12:40
- Void
- Replies: 0
Here is an image I spared myself very little time to create:
'A' is where a fan can suction air out of the enclosure. Note that to the bottom right is an inlet to allow air in.
'B' indicates a shingle like plate which can be given a negitive static electric charge, relative to the ambient outside electric charge.
'C' is a moisture cover, which also should be given UV blocking abilities.
Below are two electrical insulating struts.
The atmosphere of mars being less than 1% that of Earth, and also being colder than Earth, has less moisture content in general.
I believe that the atmospheric column contains 1/13,000th the moisture, but could be mistaken there.
However in the cold of night the atmosphere can saturate with moisture, so a method of collection can be considered.
Since the air is 6 millibars thick in general, and so less than 1/100 th as thick as the Earths, the fan should be able to change out the volume of the enclosure many times faster than it could in Earth's atmosphere.
The negitive electric charge could come from the rotor blade of the fan which would suction air out at point 'E', in the manner of a helicopter blade, which can generate charges up to 40,000 volts? This does not restrict the use of some other method of charging 'A'.
The green squiggle is intended to depict lichen which would also have a (-) charge relative to the ambient outside. The negitive charge should actually cause a film of pressurized atmosphere to surround the lichen parts, raising the potential for condensation, either of frost, or even liquid water at favorable temperatures.
Additionally, a negitive charge tends to attract (+) charged water molecules.
During the night when air is being drawn through the enclosure, the lichen should retain the relative properties mentioned above to the air being drawn over them.
The result should be frost, if the night air has a saturation of moisture. The enclosure cover 'B' should also collect frost.
In the morning as things warm up, the fan can shut off, and the frost should warm, and well below zero, the lichen should be able to draw in moisture. If the negitive charge has still maintained a static air pressure film over the lichen, it should even be possible for liquid water to form, and be absorbed by the lichen. Then as the system drys out, and the moisture leaves the lichens, and is present in the enclosure air in a concentrated form, it should be possible to suction it out into a collection device to be condensed for other uses.
I am aware that Lichen is slow growing, and do not know if it can be engineered to grow faster.
However, the purpose of this machine is to collect moisture, and the lichen are a convenient afterthought, as they have the natural properties to provide increased condensation surface, and also to absorb moisture.
Anyway if this scheme actually works and is practicle, it would increase the possibility that settlements could be at lower lattitudes then otherwise might be required by the need for water.
Pressurization of other plants seems a possiblity, but they cannot endure the extreemly cold Martian nights, so condensation is not an option.
#9146 Terraformation » Using Phobos/Demos materials to alter the upper atmosphere of Mars. » 2012-12-28 09:00:47
- Void
- Replies: 7
It may have been suggested before, but I think that the easiest method to alter Mars would be to eject dust from Phobos into
the atmosphere of Mars.
While it might make things better from a terraformers point of view, that is not gauranteed.
I would hope to soak up the chlorine atoms and get them to eventually drop to the surface and hopefully mostly stay there, allowing an improved Ozone protection from UV on the surface.
It might also alter precipitation patterns, as I have read that high layers of atmosphere on Mars often get supersaturated with water at night. I presume that this is because of lack of materials for ice to nucleate on.
So, cloud seeding using moon dust. Perhaps it could be targeted over deep basins, such as the rift valley, to raise the average humidity.
With greater UV protection, and greater relative humidity, day/night transitional dews/frosts might be more significant and maybe a minimum threshold could be met to allow lichens to grow in those low spots with more access to water dews/frosts.
My understanding is that the surface materials of Phobos have been significantly reduced of Oxygen by spluttering from the solar wind particles, so maybe it has a degree of magnitism, so perhaps a magnetic launcher of some kind could push it off of Phobos and into the atmosphere of Mars, in the manner of targeted cloud seeding.
The above picture is said to be a lichen that maintained motabolism for 30 days in a full Mars simulation. The experiment ended, so it is not known how long it could hold on, or maybe even grow. It apparently is an example of survival within a crack in rock or even soil, which apparently is survival favorable.
http://www.planetary.org/blogs/guest-bl … -mars.html
It is thought that a degree of protection from harmful radiation was a factor, but I also wonder if the dews/Frosts are more significant in the cracks of rocks or soil.
At any rate if an improved UV radiation and humidity environment were caused to occur, perhaps all the rock surfaces would support such a growth.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication … s_below_0C
Quote:
Abstract
Laboratory measurements show that lichens are extremely tolerant of freezing stress and of low-temperature exposure. Metabolic activity recovered quickly after severe and extended cold treatment. Experimental results demonstrate also that CO2 exchange is already active at around −20°C. The psychrophilic character of polar lichen species is demonstrated by optimum temperatures for net photosynthesis between 0 and 15°C. In situ measurements show that lichens begin photosynthesizing below 0°C if the dry thalli receive fresh snow. The lowest temperature measured in active lichens was −17°C at a continental Antarctic site. The fine structure and the hydration state of photobiont and mycobiont cells were studied by low-temperature scanning electron microscopy (LTSEM) of frozen hydrated specimens. Water potentials of the frozen system are in the range of or even higher than those allowing dry lichens to start photosynthesis by water vapor uptake at +10°C. The great success of lichens in polar and high alpine regions gives evidence of their physiological adaptation to low temperatures. In general lichens are able to persist through glacial periods, but extended snow cover and glaciation are limiting factors.
I actually have value in mind more than terraforming:
http://www.uni-graz.at/~grubem/treasure.pdf
If possible then the lichens might be a source of chemicals to humans on the planet.
Of course it previously been suggested by others, that dust from Martian moons could be distributed to the polar caps to change the reaction to sunlight.
Aerogel particles: (Much more far fetched)
Much more complicated and related to posts by others on this web site would be the manufacture of an aerogel dust to inject into the atmosphere. I know that aerogel cannot float in the Earths amosphere, but I wonder if it's interior cells were filled with Helium or Nitrogen if it is possible to float in the dominantly CO2 atmosphere of Mars?
There has been previous talk about floating habitats on Venus, so I feel it is worth asking. What purpose might they serve?
One possiblity would be to cause the tops of the particles to be reflective, and the sides and bottoms to be absorbing of sunlight. Then they would cool the equator, and perhaps warm the poles. This might cause a redistribution of mositure from the poles to the equator. Of course if the equator got too cold, then that would harm any intentions to foster life at the equator.
#9147 Re: Human missions » Sustainable Access to Mars: Interplanetary Transportation Architecture » 2012-12-28 08:07:20
The material I am going to post seems like it would fit here:
Dual-Mode Water Rocket:
http://www.sbir.gov/sbirsearch/detail/259659
http://www.orbitec.com/frames/advancedPropulsion.html
Vortec Engine:
http://www.sae.org/mags/AEM/11560
http://www.orbitec.com/propulsion.html
http://www.google.com/search?q=Vortex+r … 93&bih=423
Orbitec Web Site:
http://www.orbitec.com/
You may have already discussed the above, under other descriptions, but I missed it if you did. At any rate, the diagram is good to look at I think.
I am curious about this propulsion system, the Dual-Mode Water Rocket, and wonder how it might be used in a Mars mission.
One issue I saw on other threads, was that a vlasmir engine might force a mission to linger in the Van Allen belt too long.
With the above, I would imagine that the chemical engine could be used to get it through quickly.
It is also obvious that this thing could be refilled where ever water is convenient. Maybe from the Moon and Mars.
I also think that it should be possible to use a robotic ion rocket to place refueling stations at intermediate points for a trip to and from Mars, allowing the mass carried in the actual Dual-Mode Water Rocket to be lower.
It also seems to be stated that the vortex engine is considered to be lighter and more reliable. However, I do not know that it would be suitable for landing and launching from the surface of Mars. I do not know if it would make any sense to try to do an aerocapture of it at Mars. I am going to speculate that the answer would be no. In that case a separate lander is needed.
Or maybe it would be in two parts, the Vortec Engine part as a lander.
But as I have said, by having refueling at various points in the mission, perhaps an advantage is gained.
I can see also that for this method, it would also serve well to visit the Moons of Mars.
I wonder what thoughts you might have about this.
#9148 Re: Life on Mars » Past and Present life on Mars » 2012-12-28 05:39:03
I can accept that you have that conclusion, and would require a contrary fact in order to consider changing it.
None is provided to the public, and most likely no such evidence is in the possession of any person called human.
I am curious. What is your interest in Mars?
The search for life is one of the things that has seemed to interest the scientific community.
I can name 3 of possible reactions to the existance of Mars as a potential habitible world.
Creationist:
a) 1 God driven origin of life on Earth, very little interest in Mars.
b) 1 God driven origin of life on Earth, but not ruling out other creations, could more easily adapt to findings of life elsewhere.
Atheist:
- Would likely prefer life to be found, in hopes of disputing other relegious doctrins.
In both of the above cases, it is my personal thinking that rights to power over the human race are involved, so they concern manipulating people, who in turn manipulate objects as a secondary object.
Materialist:
- Most likely not linking the existance of life outside of the Earth with the purpose of expansion into space.
In this case obviously, the agenda is to manipulate objects, which in turn does also manipulate people.
You don't have to answer at all of course, I am curious are you primarily an object manipulator, or a people manipulator?
Something else?
#9149 Re: Terraformation » Shell Worlds » 2012-12-28 03:31:03
A good place to try to develop at least part of the skills necessary, with a potential payoff might be Titan.
I suggest a bottom and a top shell. A torus around the equator. A flatened torus, and within the atmosphere, at a level where the air pressure would be 1 bar ideally.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torus
Floating? If possible, anchored. Tensile or compressive anchors? Whatever could work.
once established, in terms of population saftey, I am thinking that continuing safety should be possible.
Further this method would allow the limitation of the alteration of the native environment, but I suppose the presence would alter the native form, but a stable post native form should be possible.
No danger of explosive decompression, A giant heat sink to spill heat into (The cold atmosphere), Light materials in abundance, possible meteor heavy materials in the crust.
But likely defficient in heavy materials accessible on the surface. A defficient power source.
Still in a solar space based trade network it might be a important place. Heavy materials once imported are not too likely to be lost and could be recycled, and energy gathering technology does keep advancing.
For energy the usual space solar and presumed fusion sources can be speculated on. In addition, Saturns spin can be exploited using magnetic tether systems linked to Saturn by tides. Curious, if Titan does not have a magnetic field, perhaps those tethers could be down on the surface. Maybe even superconductive materials? I am not sure if that would be very important though.
But imagining that the human race were to become interstellar, then Neo-Earths and Neo-Titans might be their best finds.
#9150 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » The Interplanetary Economy- My Take » 2012-12-27 22:44:48
I find that the hardest question for us to answer as space advocates, both to ourselves and to others is: Why space? Why now?
Why? Because it's there and you can. The baby boom generation (Which I belong to). Was apparently raised to be the GI generations vision of a brilliant future, perfect in every way, the Jetsons. (See the book "The fourth turning").
We were tought really to be just the opposite of them. I suppose they wanted to live through us and so be able to live the methods of life that they had not. We followed the script to a degree, but also because of our extreem individuality, really hippies became yuppies, and also we had a tendency to feel that we were required to challenge what the GI generation had built. So, a large degree of non purpose was the result. If you do choose to read that book and don't choose to dismiss it, you will find that this process has happened many times, and that what comes next after this current period could be another generation like the GI generation, where they will band together for a great purpose. That should not be squandered.
Why space? Why now? Why get up in the morning? Why exist? It is just the same as it ever was. Our bodies are made of material, and there is a lot of material in space. The other choice is to do battle with competitors to see who gets the materials here on Earth. And with the weapons that are availible, that could spell a civilizational failure.
Our culture/s are too big now for one planet. Separation allowed for some developement of human liberty in the case of America (I know that there are very good counter arguments). But the point is that Europe gave birth to us, but was also a canibal parent. Given the means, the higher powers in Europe which was more established would have turned us completely into plantations, for a quick coin, and would have destroyed any of the sub cultures that moved here that stood in the way. This would have corrupted both Europe and America further than is the case.
The compulsion for domination which many people carry, and the compulsion for efficiency are contrary to the needs of the human soul. (Which strangely the baby boomers are well equipped to comment on as they are the prophets).
The generation to come will need a task which involves great organization, self sacrifice, and hopefully a great gain for that.
The off Earth locations will allow that to take place without bumping into established cultures on this planet, and so can diffuse and manage the asperations of that generation to come, perhaps without shattering the Earth.