New Mars Forums

So if that machine found a collection of attributes reasonably near a favored location and that prompted the first settlement to be established there what would that collection be?

I have this list of probable materials in Hellas.
-Magnetic Meteor Iron.
-Glaciers, and probabbly other ice under the soil in places.
-Thicker atmosphere.
-Not a true polar location (Not as harsh as the poles).
One other thing I think is possible is Copper Sulphate?
http://spacefellowship.com/news/art2077 … lakes.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_sulfate
I am presuming that if the last part of the wet period of Mars was acid as is said, copper in the soil and rocks would have been leached out, and would end up as disolved materials in lakes in Hellas, and that when those lakes dried up, there would have been salt pans.  I don't know how to get copper out of copper sulphate, but I would imagine it can be done somehow.

I might also what to find salt domes and perhaps even petroleum in association with those.  But, I am not thinking that such a convenience is likely to be near the site which would be selected, but maybe.

I guess a really big need would be the resources to make good glass with, but I don't know what that is yet.

I choose Hellas.

Glaciers 1/2 mile thick?
Pressure maximum 1.89 * Mean
Not too far south.

http://www.space.com/11456-mars-dry-ice … water.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/scie … -Mars.html
http://geology.com/research/glaciers-on-mars.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellas_Planetia

So, that means that if the dry ice that is known of can be evaporated, I supposed by greenhouse gasses, then the best pressure at the bottom of Hellas could be 20-21 Millibars.

Even now it is somewhat favorable to the existence of temporary liquid water.

The glaciers of course as a source of water, uphill, so that a gravity feed of melted water is possible.  (In a covered canal or pipeline).

I have very great reservations about notions of greenhouses I see portraid on this web site or others.

It is my opinion that Glass would be best used in a unpressurzed "A-Frame" where the Panes could be changeable with metal fittings, and no siginificant pressurization would be employed.  The A-Frame with glass would be to filter out U.V. and to hold heat in, and to keep some dust out.

I would say that I think that in that structure could be bags of water, where the bags could hold a reasonable pressure, and would support aquatic plant life.
In adition, bags re-enforced with "Hose" like counter pressure suits.  Where the joins would occur between "Sausage Links", a metal frame which the "Hose/Net" would be anchored with lashings.  Inside this perhaps a soil of styrafoam which your bamboo could grow, and upon which humans could walk.  The styraform peices allowing digging to access leaks.  Hydrophonic fluid to feed the bamboo or other crops.

I really like to imagine an "A-Frame" where also inside of it is an unpressurized vapor-barrier tent inside of that a capacitive device which has a wick attached to it.

I have seen chart recorders where a paper sheet could be held to it by electostatic force.  It was rather strong.  "Hewlett Packerd" made them I belive.  Havn't seen them around lately.  The same method could pressurize a root system for the plants where the wick could be wetted.  The point being that at the low elevations of Hellas, this method might support a specially engineered crop where no strong effort is needed to make allow the plant to grow.  Just a glass A-Frame, a vapor barrier tent, and a root system facitated by electostatic force.

If this works, then you have a hope of machines serving the needs of people, rather than people making unreasonable efforts to make anything grow.

A profit is a must.

Oh, and I didn't even mention how you could easily tunnel into the glacier to provide space for industrial activities, and natural "Freezers" for food.

Neither did I mention Antarctic Dry Valley Lakes.  Or did I?

And then the extra layer of atmosphere, to assist parachutes for landing?

I see it as win, win, win.

What are E.T.'s motivations?

Let me know if I deviate too far from your notion of what this thread is about.

I really have a problem with the notion that robots would replace humans.  I would be more inclined to think that a robot would want to aquire human properties, and a human aquire robot properties.

Some believe that electronics could evenutally emulate a brain exactly.  I am not so sure. The substances must have different inherant properties.  Especially if quantum effects are a part of the human mind.  However I could certaily be shown wrong on that.

My next move into advanced alienhood, would be to have my skull bone replaced with a computer, or a computer cap you could put over your existing head.  I am presuming that this would involve a computer with atomic level switches.  This would be integrated into the brain, as the next layer. 

So, as far as robots being more intellegent than humans, the big question is just how intellegent do you want a "Person" to be?

Compactness?  I just read an article which suggested that the ability to 3D print physical objects is going to change the notions of business, and industry around the planet.  These are the objects to be printed from plastics and metal powders.

For North America it is suggested that much less would be brought in from China, and that much would be produced locally, very locally.

You suggested that E.T. may not be all that interested in conquering endless expanses of space.

I think that whatever humans may turn into, E.T. could also turn into, so in the end the civilzations would produce similar beings.

I think that the polyneasian model is the one E.T. might choose.  Settle a certain number of star systems, so that when one dies, another is in the process of a revival.  This then gaurantees a continuing heritage.

But since there would be no boundries, until a rival E.T. group would be encountered, then there would be a certain amount of leakage where misfits and malcontents would go to the edges and move to unoccupied terratory.

As for compactification, I get the notion of large bee's nests?  Full of E.T.'s?

For efficiency, humans could modify their human forms to be the size of hobits or smaller for efficiency, and yet be intellegent due to a skull cap computer agumentation?

The questions are; How many Cyborgs(Humans) are enough?  How intellegent is intellegent enough?  Won't they get bored if they have mental capacities which far exceed their challenge?  Who is going to play on the playground?

In the end arn't we all just looking for a good time?  By my judgement no sane being should say "I want to suffer in hell forever".  No they usually want to go to heaven and be happy.

So isn't happiness what we want and also E.T.?

And to the original subject, common microbes, and perhaps in some cases parallel conditions, and so parallel evolution. 

To far from us to mate with directly, but if each creature has RNA/DNA and two civilizations met, might they just decide to artificially build "Children" creatures, and populate some star systems with them, by grafting capabilities from both races into the "Children".

I don't see that it is necessary to have alien E.T.'s seeking the elimimination of those who do not resemble them.

Machines only?  Why?  If a machine species, then most likely it would seek to add cellular machinery to it's "Children".

I hope I did not get too far off track.

I have more imagination than skill in these matters, but so far I have been stimulated to visualize:
1) A rocket with a propeller at the top, which has airplane wings for blades, and that that propeller would have intake holes where the pressure were the highest.
The propeller would be rotated with rotons. I'm sorry, I am stuck on rotons.  The "Propeller" would be an "Air" compresser, and that compresser would feed the rotons, and also the main rocket stack with compressed Martian gas.  The "Propeller" might give some lift, but actually it is to be an "Air" compressor primarily.
I was thinking solid rocket fuel, both for the rotons and the main stack.  Although the fuel may not have any Oxydizer, it is not a law that it would not.  So the Oxydation part could be partially Martian air and partially solid fuel.  I was thinking also that Aluminum powder could be included.

I was thinking that the solid "Jet?" boosters could be "Printed" with metal powders.

So actually I have no notion of a useful device in this case, just maybe something that could go up, and if it had on board oxydizer for when the atmosphere runs out, maybe even to orbit.

2) Replace the propeller with a cage fan, a rotating nose cone, again propelled by rotons, and that having a greater circumference than the rocket body, so that the cage fan would feed both the rotons and the main engine.  The rocket itself would operate in a greater vacuum, because it would travel through the vacuum bubble left by the rotating cage fan, so you could drop the atmospheric drag load.  Maybe this would be a good one for Earth?  I am more leaning towards solid fuels, Magnesium and Aluminum also.  To do useful work these would be strapped on to a load, and there would be at least two of them.

If this is a polution, I appologize in advance for the intrusion.

OK, now I get to become public enemy #1.

Bamboo OK, fine, the pressurized gardens would be satisfying.  The wood good.  A sponge on a stick, ICK!

Have you considered Alergies?  Runny noses. Well what if?  What if a disease developes or is imported.  And for clean up, paper products are valuable.  And paper itself is not indespensible.  Our paperless office where I write software for, is hardly so.  I guess if you had to.  But why limit yourselves.

I propose paper from Algae.  Algae has no reason to manufacture cellulose, but could a type be created that would do so?

Pick one that is happy on cold brine like arctic sea water, one that likes about the solar flux that would exist in a greenhouse on Mars.

Make a nominally unpressurized greenhouse with a pool of cold brine in it.  Maybe -2 degrees C or colder, up to the coldest temperature where that algae could be productive to it's maximum.

The point would be to generate Oxygen to be collected from the Greenhouse and Cellulose.  From that paper, and fake wood as well.  And the dried product could also be a fuel in a pinch, perhaps easily stored outside with minimal protection.  Not a prefered fuel, just an option.

I know how responses occur here,  bamboo is fine, but if this other thing could occur why not that as well.

Exactly!

I have been very careful not to place this type of post anywhere else, because I do not want to interfere with what they are trying to accomplish in those threads.

Any type of terraforming almost has to look pretty far into the future for a payoff though, so as you say.  "This is where this belongs".

And after having other people talk about space elivators on Earth and Mars, and after all the book "The high Frontier", way long ago when I was a puppy, I think I havn't gotten that far out there.

Terraformer also has a notion, I leave room for that.

So, I will go further out. 

A habitat assembled at a rocky asteroid and then moved to a wet one like Ceres to take up volitles, and then moved slowly to Jupiter or further out, that might be a way.

And as for small objects.  What if Alpha Centauri has no major planets, just small dry ones and comets.  Given that eventually humans might live to be thousands of year old before they die, and might cross to such a place at rather low speed over a number of centuries, maybe a little rehearsal in the mind of such a case is OK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_Cent … of_planets

How about an amusement park?

If you are going to offer me a web site where I can be insulted and have free pokes in the eye, I might prefer one with a little fun.

http://www.lewisbamboo.com/cold-hardy-bamboo.html

http://www.bamboogrove.com/bamboo-paper.html

http://www.google.com/search?q=paper+fr … d=0CHAQsAQ

It would be nice if it was even more cold tollerant, but I am sure a greenhouse which limits it's coldest climate to that of an Iowa winter is possible on Mars.

I have always wondered how people would be able to maintain hygene on Mars without sanitary paper, such as kleenex, paper towel, and so on. And I don't think people who fly space ships would want to be doing the right hand left hand thing.

Paper from bamboo.

I also mention bamboo or other plants as evaporators.  Water with grey or even worse water, and then let them eveporate more or less clean vapors into the greenhouse air, and then condense reasonably clean water using the Martian cold nights.

Obviously this is a case where Mars is way ahead of the Moon as a place to do it.  So, less reason to divert to the Moon.

Well, I am not with the dream police, so I will not take you in for further questioning.

I am wondering why I can't speculate on dwarf and almost dwarf planets?  Rotating pressurized habitats in geo synch orbit?  Am I an apostate?  Space elivators on the smallest mock up of Earth or Mars to test the concepts, is this wrong?  It's not like I am spending any ones money thinking about it.

If you wanted, I could tell you how to have artificial gravitation inside of  a location on or inside of that little world.  However, I just wanted to keep things simple and return to the basics, and see where the thought process ended up.  I confess, that this particular thread does stretch the concept of terraforming a large amount, but of course I finally added the bit about hollow spaces inside the little world.  All the way down and hollow planet?  Well, yeah, that's way beyond my original conception, but maybe finding out specifically why it is not a prefered plan is as good information as finding out what is a good plan.

I've been around a while, and spinning habitats in the asteroid belt, and indeed hollow asteroids are not new and rejectable ideas.  Given a choice, if I thought I could help to establish a population on Mars and that they would not die out like Greenland, that would be where my efforts would stay.  However, we are not in that pinch at this time. 

I think that there are plenty of wild ideas in this section "Terraforming", and that actually other than the drill to the core part, my asperations are rather modest and fairly practicle compaired to the average.

But I can take it.  And to keep the piece, I can also behave.

Well, I have been given information both to the negative of what I suggested, and also concepts also suggested.

Might I suggest, that instead of an inverted cone, a net shaped like a badmitton "Birdie".  I guess without a roton, you could try to make it rigid, but that makes me wonder how it is stowed and deployed.

With a roton, it could drag behind in the shadow, but be spun to expand outside of the shadow.

To avoid burning up, then not deployed until, speeds are less than 1/2 mile per second?  I don't know how bad the heating is then.  I am also decending into archaic units from your point of view, but it is comfort from mine.

Anyway with a roton, this could be controllable. (Maybe)  You could spin it into the air flow to the degree that you dared, and let it be swept back into the air stream shadow, to make sure the descilleration rate is comfortable, and the heating is not excessive.

A spinning net should be deployable, and also yield more drag for the amount of device mass than a continuous cone of material.  It may shed heat better also, provided it is not pushed into the air stream too harsly.  When you get rid of it I don't know.  Maybe when it is possible to depoy a parachute.  I am inclined to wonder if retaining the roton engines would make sense however all the way down, since they could assist on the landing, and they are already paid for.  However, then the parachute and net would have to ride in a compartment mounted on the rear of the roton.  How much love a parachute would have for a spining roton, I don't know not much I am guessing.  Maybe the roton could run with the net.  The roton would shut off, and the net being ejected would pull the parachute out.  When the parachute was ejected the roton could start up again for the final landing.

Again I know you guys are levels more practiced and I will not continue beyond the point where I can reasonably speculate on these things.

Yes, if you want that concept, it could be persued, but it seems to be more the end of a story about Vesta, rather than a beginning.

I am reading how hard it seems to be to land significant materials on Mars due to the fact that it has a thin atmosphere and it would almost be better if it had none.

So, I am looking at Vesta, and thinking that in fact for somewhat round worlds, it would not be likely to find an easier one to land supplies on.

Getthing there would be harder, but with patience and electric rockets, the materials could be dropped there, and when sufficiency was confirmed, a crewed vehicle could go, either a cycling spaceship, or a very fast nuclear/plasma device.

This all presumes that the dry Vesta is not totally dry, that there is some water ice.

So, I am thinking a research station/mining station/outpost the the outer solar system.  Maybe maxing out at 5000 people Plus a gene bank, in case of a social collapse of the whole solar system.  Maybe a component of a solarsystem wide radio telescope?

Experiments in surface mining, Mass driver launching of ore, Space elivators, and perhaps trying to drill down to the core of that little world and get to the heavy metals.

Of course it is also possible that a shattered core exists in the asteroid belt with all the heavy metals desired.

Anyway, the fun is in imagining walking about in your counterpressure suit, and building stuff, and robots to help you.

Just the opposite of the wet world stuff I have usually concerned myself with.

I am getting a bit Sci-Fi, in the old fashion sense.  It's kind of fun.

I am not knocking the way you see things, I am just after something else.  Perhaps the adventure, or the thought of it.

I bought a Discover magazine today, and read an article, "The Clouds are Alive".  The point in the article is that it seems that microorganisms high up, almost to conditions resembling Mars, and also in the clouds, serve as a catalist to freeze supercooled water.

So, in a different way it might after all be possible that a microorganism could alter Venus.  The rain and snow patterns.  I presume that it does rain and perhaps snow in the atmosphere of Venus in some circumstances.

I don't know what value the alteration would have however.

The organisms would have to put up with UV, as this article indicates some of these organisms do.  I also have reservations on the existance of a place in the atmospheric column where the organisms would not be burned up by Sulphuric Acid.  I do recall that Sulphuric Acid is an Oxidant.  If in very diluted conditions, it could actually be used by an organism in place of Oxygen perhaps.  Not sure.

Anyway something to think about.

Curiously, if there were already such an organism in the atmosphere of Venus, and it could cause supercooled water to freeze and precipitate, then this could be detected from orbit.  Precipiation would occur at a higher temperature than would be expected if there were no such particles/organsms.