New Mars Forums

Well about vapor pressure:

www.vaxasoftware.com

http://www.vaxasoftware.com/doc_eduen/qui/pvh2o.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(dat … se_diagram

Well I guess that will do.  As I have seen it, it appears that if Hellas eventually and optimistically had a 23 Millibar pressure then 70 DegF/23 DegC would be the boiling point of water.  So, having ice water or even water at 39 DegF/3.89 DegC is quite reasonable, and even higher could be considered.  So, an effective vapor barrier would not be used to suppress boiling with internal pressure relative to the external pressure, but would be a vapor barrier to inhibit evaporation.

In current terms it is my opinion that water kept at 32 DegF / 0 DegC would be stable in the bottom of Hellas, if given a vapor barrer, to keep the dryness and the winds of the atmosphere from stripping off the water.  Of course it is desired to let the photons in to promote photosynthisis.

And if you would criticize that then consider that sea life including plant life I believe, can in fact work in water considerably colder than that if it is salt water.  Therefore the vapor pressure of that solution would be less than 6.1 Milliabars.

In fact I believe that the current maximum pressure at the bottom of Hellas is > 11.466 Millibars, and that 11.466 Millibars allows for a boiling point of 48.2 DegF.

So, I am rather inclined to say that I was not Optimistic about what could be accomplished! I was consirvative!

Yes, and there is more, I don't care if the ice melts for a few weeks in the summer.  Actually that would mimic the Arctic Tundra pond environment very well.

In fact that could allow for emergent plant life.  However, now my problem is how do you keep alive and active a polinator type insect or other mobile animal that could polinate.  I know that the Mona Loa bug on the top of Hawaii can live well below freezing, but how to give it resperation.  (And of course it is not a polinator).
In the Hymilayas are insects with antifreeze which also can work well below freezing.  Still how does a insect survive on 12 or less Millibars of Oxygen/Nitrogen mix?
My estimation is that is it unsolvable, but I will still think about it.

One thing I will not think about is Misquitos on Mars.  I will swat them if they exist.

Various pre-positioned propulsion segments, to facilitate travel by spacecraft.

1) Solar Steam Rocket.
2) Burn as you split propulsion.  In otherwords, with solar energy or nuclear energy, split the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen and do not store it cryrogenically, but only in pressurized containers, and when you have enough do a pulsed burn.
3) Store liquids, your Hydrogen Peroxide/Water solution for an Oxydizer, and perhaps Methane, if Carbon is available along with water.
4) Full Cryrogenic, Hydrogen and Oxygen stored liquid.

The idea I might see is they could gather the goodies, and even process them robotically and rather than returing that to Earth, pre-position them where travelers can latch on to them, and use them for their journey, and also for some extra consumables.

This could really open up Mars, and the real Asteroid belt.

After a tank like that was used, perhaps it would fly back to Earth orbit using electric propulsion, and be referbished for another mission.

Tanks could be loaded with water and prepositioned around Mars as well, if that technology did work because it should work for small objects near Mars as well shouldn't it?

If they could provide that for a Mars Mission, surely the sponsors of such a mission would pay rather well for the service.

And yes there are the valuable metals to bring home as well.

I have no reply as to a spacecraft, but if we targeted something like that with solar concentrators, and place a mixture of water steam and CO2 on it, could hydrocarbons be generated, and diluted in the upward rushing stream of atmosphere.  Greenhouse gasses?

Thanks for all the patience. And thanks for the tip. 

Tented fresh water pond.

Related to a degree to the "Antarctic Dry Valley Lake", which in other places I have proposed, is a much more humble proposal.

Dig a ditch, and put in it some means to keep the water from draining.  If it is in ground with ice as places on Mars might provide, then the permafrost might do this.

Put a tent with UV protection over that.  It should also help to keep liquid water or ice from evaporating out of the enclosure.

On Earth, fresh water with ice over it can have water temperatures as high as 39 degrees Fahrenheight.  Higher than that and the water starts turning over.

For this "Ditch-Pond" I might prefer a layer of ice.  That ice can be very clear.  Perhaps 1 inch, 3 inches, 6 inches, a few feet.

If a water source were available, then this mode of aquaculture is possible.

I could be wrong but I think that on Mars a layer of ice 1.2 feet thick should add a pressure of 10 millibars, so the pressure at the bottom of such an ice layer would be in the bottom of Hellas somewhat above 20 millibars.  So the amount of disolved gases could be less than or equivalant to that before it would come out of solution.  Nitrogen content could be elivated, if that would favor an organism.  A certain amount of Oxygen could be kept in those waters, for organisms which require Oxygen for their motabilism when the sun is not shining.

Fertilizer could be added of course.

I am sure simple micro-organisms could grow in that, and perhaps some scheme could be cooked up to use them for food, or some other resource.

However, I would much prefer that a complex green plant be found which would be able to live at the bottom of such a "Trench-Pond".  I don't think that humans are very fond of ice water, and of course on most places on Earth most fresh water ponds are covered with snow if it is winter, so the solar flux is very reduced.

However, I am guessing that somewhere on the planet might be found such a plant.

Further, if this aparatus were to overheat, it could be cooled with an Ammonia/water coolant, and that boiled to generate electricity.  Of course to make that pay, the installation would have to be very large.

If not the cooling system, then shades might be used in the summer.

Louis said:

"Hamster balls".  That would be a possible expansion of the jars, more mobile, able to cover more surface, more automated.

I have also thought about a robot gardener inside of the containers, lets say for duckweed, if you had a subchamber which was on the dark side, and cool or cold, refrigeration or a freezer, and so the robot takes duckweed and refirigerates it or puts it in the freezer and lets more duckweed grow.  Something like that.  That concept could also be upgraded to other vegtibles as well.  Perticularlly if the bottles had an influx of nutrients.

However, it is perhaps best to start small with hand carry bottles, (Maybe a two wheel cart or a wheelbarrow), and then as the population rises move towards larger devices, and permanent installations such as your canyon with walls, floor and roof.

Perhaps for some produce the small bottles would be kept, but not so much for plants that require polinators.  Those would be best grown in the device you have mentioned.

So I can think of four lines of logic for growing plants:
1) Inside the habitation, most likely with artificial lights, but perhaps a few plants in the shelter windows, this being done for pyscological reasons as well as for the food.
2) A batch process with "Bottle Terrariums", because this could be a practicle way to expand agriculture in the beginning and their may be a few plants that would do well with this.
3) Your covered canyon, since, there are some plants that would be best grown in Earth simulated normalicy, with polinating organisms.
4) Tented experimental ice water irrigation, most likely at the bottom of Hellas, to begin to develop an organism which can be of economic value, and might be more and more adapted to such an environment.
5) Covered water enclosures, such as an artificial Antarctic Dry Valley lake, but I will do a post on a fresh water pond, which would be in the same family.

As for 1 or 3, I have read that the "Bananna" has everything a human needs to survive.  I cannot confirm that but it is an interesting notion.

I will talk further in another post about tented ice water irrigation.

Well to be honest, I am not a big fan of big domes.  Not at this time.

I think that quarters should be safe, and that adding too much window space for plant life endangers the lives of people and would require constant vigilance and testing and repairing to maintain air pressure.  I also think that the construction costs of effort would be prohibitive until later in the estabilishment of the culture.  I also think that high structures invite slip and fall injuries.

Yes, such "Greenhouse" kits could be delivered at great expense from Earth, no, they would not maintain very safely or in a cost effective way.

Yes they could eventually be constructed from materials native to Mars, but still the amount of effort for the payoff does not seem to me to make them a prudent investment.

I believe that quarters could have small specialty gardens, with windows, but preferably with indoor lighting.  This would be done in part for maintaining phychological heath for the settlers.

Otherwise, I am inclined to consider a batch process for gardening, for a number of reasons.

1) With plastics and 3D printers, mass production of large bottles could occur.  Repitition in the making of the same bottle.
2) The bottles could also be converted into terrariums.
3) The bottles can be loaded up as terrariums.
4) The bottles can be sprayed with liquid glass for protection.
5) The bottles can be put outside.
6) The bottles can have a protective tent outside that they are put in, the protective tent would have also been sprayed with liquid glass.

Each container would have it's own pressurization and stock of chemicals.  Perhap part of the bottle would be occupied by decaying organic matter and Mushrooms, and the other part by green plants.

I think that this would be a good first expansion of gardening abilities.

Other needed parts are:
Plastic poles for tent poles.
A reflective plastic sheet on the bottom of the tent, where more sunlight is reflected to the bottles to make up for attenuation and also that sunlight is dimmer on Mars.
Water pillows.  Pillows of sterile water, put also into the tent to help keep off freezing temperatures at night.

Crazy?

Get a pepsi bottle, a clear one, empty it, take the label off.  Now think about sizing it up.

Beyond that my next expectation would be to have a 6 foot nominal "Mold" and to have a plastic printer print sections that can be socketed into each other, so as to make a very long tube, one that even humans could walk into.  Each section glued to the other, and then perhaps that attached to an airlock.  A person entering such a structure might still consider a counterpressure suit.

Anyway here are some connected websites that might help make it seem possible.

http://www.mobot.org/jwcross/duckweed/n … sition.htm

http://tealco.net/window_edible_herb_garden.html

http://herbcompanion.com/Gardening/HERB … GLASS.aspx

Now before you go off into giggle fits, remember that the bottles are also bottles, and there will be a need for bottles to store chemicals.  If more than is needed are created, and they can be used to grow some food, then it is worth considering.

And I also favor a plastics intensive industrial base because I anticipate that such a process will naturally leak greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere as a by product.

http://www.pallensmith.com/articles/terrarium

Finally I anticipate a large "Humididore", in the bottom of Hellas, mostly unpressurized, and yet capable of allowing a "Crop" to be wattered with ice water.  Most likely a tundra grass or something like that.  Failing that then moss or linchens.  Any boil off would have to be recaptured and condensed.  Anyway, that "Tent" would most likely be a plastic tent with spray on glass.  It would be a step in the right direction, towards a someday outdoors farming effort when the bottom of Hellas had a pressure of 20 Millibars or more.

Other pressurized structures that humans can be in?  Large cornfields for instance?  I am not thinking that that is a great notion untill the "Martians" get their "Sea Legs" and invent new technologies, neccessity being what it is.

Louis said:

Well it is not a case of having only hot water or only cold water, by all means, and every means.

However I do have a bias for the first few years towards Meteor Iron, unless what you propose fall into the laps of the settlers.

I am very excited about a printer which could print angle iron, plate, tube and rod.  With those and some millwrite and blacksmith tools, you could make quite a few things, things that would be usefull when you were ready to do a real mine.

There is another issue as well, mining can be dangerous, and injuries costly.  That is not a show stopper, but when choosing a technology that is part of the economic calculation as well.  What do you do if someone cripples themselves?  Now you have lost something of value.

If your ore were of a nature where you could shovel it up that is a plus.  If you must blast it and then carry the rock to a facility to crush and grind it, that requires a lot of equipment and work and it is dangerous.

Lewis and Spacenut,

I don't care where there Iron, or Iron equivalant comes from.  All I know is that Meteor Iron should be distributed rather uniformly over the surface.
As I have mentioned, I worked in Red Iron (Hemitite) and Taconite mines.  I played on the mine dumps.  I swam on a pond on top of a mine dump that no longer exists! I swam in the lake in the deep pits.  I know of these things more that I know of Meteor iron.  I did not ever enter the Soudan mine, but I know of it.  If you can get that and the other things, then forget Meteor Iron.

Needing other resources that are locaition specific, then I choose Meteor Iron because it then does not hobble the child with the burden of transit from one location of an essential material to another.  In other words, if you find a resource something that is not iron, but you still want iron, meteor iron should be near the special something that you found.  Meteor Iron is ubiqutous to the surface as I understand it.

Water it ubiquitous to the high lattitudes.  Hellas should have higher air pressure, Meteor Iron, and some water at some locations.  That is how I think.

Find a big Iron deposite, great, but now I am thinking how I might have iron in the first few years.  Is your iron local to other essential resources?  If yes, then fine we are really fortunate. 

When I was a little boy, I found extrodinary things on the mine dumps.  Samples.  I have none of them now, but I remember what they look like.  Find a mine in a good location, and I will not resist that.

We have three ranges of ore in Minnesota.  Vermillion Range, where the Soudan Mine is, Cayuna Range, where the ore is unfortunately adulterated with Manganese, and the Messabi Range, where I worked, where the Taconite is virgin, has very little contaminants, and of course, I have a side interest in that where I wonder if Taconite ore could be concentrated, Monded, and printed to Iron/Steel Metal parts.  I have been away from those places for quite a time, but still a boy remembers his youth.  I have to think in terms of Meteor Iron for the Mond process (More or less Mond), because I don't think that Hemmitite is directly responsive to it, but maybe I am wrong about that?

I have this information to add:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonyl_metallurgy

http://www.space-mining.com/IRONRECOVERY.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy
Quote from the above:

More History: (Pattern Welding)

Nickle has toxic problems as well I believe.  However I did encounter the information that Nickle and Iron are best separated with magnets, which I presume means grinding the Meteor metal very fine, I would think there are limits to the amount of purity easliy achived.

So, I am convinced that you are on the right track for the 3D printer. 

I found some more very intersting information concerning Plastics from C02, and a spray on glass with UV protective properties, so I am going to try to find an old thread about greenhouses and wake it up and talk about metals, plastics, and glass spray to make greenhouses and such, which in the end would after all be very valuable, and it appears they could be printed.    I am glad I encountered you guys.

Oh an afterthought,  maybe a flame with just a bit more oxygen than fuel, could be periodically be put to the surface of the object being printed, to remove a bit of excess carbon.  I understand that CO is explosive, but if the Oxygen and pressure levels were kept low, and the CO removed from the area of manufacture reasonably well, perhaps each layer could have a different amount of Carbon and other additives, making a laminated structure, and not causing a explosion or fire. (See Pattern Welding Above).

With respect truely,

Could there be anyway to mineaturize the process to the head of a 3D printer?  That is refine steel as you print?  I don't care which process.  It would then not require huge draws from the power source, but only power at the time of printing, a tiny hot spot, where the needed chemicals would be injected, and perhaps with an action to remove slag?

Oh Oh, I think someone put a nickel in me.

I am going to poropose a collection of propulsion methods, to move teraforming supplies to a perfered location from a location of origin.

I am only partially serious, I am only trying to see if there are any combinations which could make sense.  Go ahead and hammer this hard if you think something should be removed from the assembly.

I could have gone upstairs to the places where you guys normally hang out but why should I mess that up for you.  You stoped by with nuclear propulsion, and I am going to use it eventually.

But for now.

1) Couple an Electric rocket with a culuster of solid rockets, and perhaps a "Barge" of equipment, and a small liquid thruster capability.
2) Use the electric rocket to do flyby gravity assists from targets useful, perhaps the Moon, I hope Venus, and perhaps the Earth.
3a) Gravity boost from Venus to go to Mars, fire off the solid rockets in sequence as needed, fine tune with electric, use liquid when needed.
3b) Gravity boost from Mars to Vesta, fire off solid rockets in sequence as needed, fine tune with electric, use liquid when needed.

*So, I am thinking that the Solar Electric would have it's best performance heading towards Venus, and perhaps back out towards the orbit of Earth.
After that it becomes more of a steering mechanism, but has some use.  I am prefering that the device would arrive at Mars or Vesta with some of it's solid rockets unburned, for future use.

So, I have tied all this to Terraforming, Vesta, and Mars.  Now I want to add Nuclear.

What if this assembly did in fact have a "Orion" type push also?  I am thinking one blast, and instead of springs, two plates with crushable honeycomb between them to buffer the shock.  I am not exact as to when this would be used.  I just think that it could be integrated into the system to make a one time mega-boost.  I would also like to speculate on the notion that the shock absorber plate would be used again for Aerocapture.

By then way as I see, it the solar electric thruster system would separate from the assembly and get to a distance before the blast, because it would most likely be too delicate for that event.  The solar electric thruster system could then try to get back to the assembly after the blast.

Now it's all tied together, except the nuclear powered planes, but give me time.

Just some fun.