New Mars Forums

OK, I liked your thinking, but I can think of alternative futures, and so I will play the skunk as I often do, and stink up things a bit.

I agree that it may be a good plan to start by having orbital facilities for young babies.  I will go further and say that perhaps it would be good to consider a possible future where indeed childhood involves prolonged presence in the orbit of Mars.  I specifically am looking at Phobos and Demos.  Any use of them will require a deaper definition of their nature, so a program of discovery specific to them is essential to planning for Mars in my opinion.

Specifically I am leaning on this type of question.  What is the nature of Phobos and Demos?  It is apparent that they have hollow space inside of them per this reference:

http://nineplanets.org/phobos.html

I cannot prove, and do not know if there is a significant ice content, but apparently it is not yet ruled out.  Some speculation has it that Phobos and Demos are not Asteroids, but Outer Solar system objects.  If so, then they started with a lot of ice, and may still retain some of it.  Who knows, perhaps even some Ammonia deep down?  (Nitogen).

I unlike many of you at this time would settle for an personed expidition to Mars which would be preceded by unpersoned probes, to futher analyze Phobos and Demos.  That first personed expidition could first do some expiriments on utilizing the resources of Phobos and Demos, and hopefully would include the process of sintering the dust of the surface into a radiation shelter somewhere.  Further hopefully they could dig into a moon to Ice.  I am hoping that large sections of permafrost did exist, because it might suggest that hollows could be created in which spinning habitats could be built.

Obviously the ice would have value as life support and propellant.

I cannot give a date, but I will stick to your first mission date, 2020?  Lacking any other notion of certainty.

A point I have read is that it is thought that Phobos and Demos will contain fragments of rock from various era's of the history of Mars.  Certaily this would be a useful byproduct.  Obviously the samples will fetch money from scientific institutions that which to test their theories of reality against the evidence it might offer.  That point was where much of the early rocks of Mars have been altered those fragments on Phobos and Demos could be representative of pages of history for Mars.

I think that a mission to transport machines to Mars and also land them on the surface may be too ambitious.  Yes, if contamination is not an issue, then perhaps a few landings of humans here and there, but I see that the main effort should be interplanetary travel, and no big effort for direct human landings from Earth.

I feel that Phobos and Demos could be integrated into a infant economy compising NEO objects, and Lunar telerobotic products.  I feel that bases on Phobos and Demos could earn money by hosting scientists from Earth who would study rock samples from Phobos and Demos (Mars fragments), and indeed samples from Mars, and also with telepresence the environment of Mars.

I am satisfied that Phobos and Demos could be good happy places for a significant growing population.  I would like to see at least 5000, as an Arc in case humans on Earth fall prey to their occasional bouts of mass stupidity.

I should think that that phase could last for 30 years, very optimistically from 2020 to 2050.  But by 2050, I would have no problem imagining a very large orbital population.  Perhaps 100,000.

It all depends on the evolvement of an economy, and technology.  I feel that the human race is just on the edge of a real technology that could transport people from Earth orbit to Mars orbit at a reasonable cost, particularly if large amounts of water could be had from Phobos and Demos.

At some point in the developement of Phobos and Demos, yes a starter population on the surface of Mars.  More of an experimental station, where methods to adapt to Mars could be worked on.  Once that fire got burning, it would have a orbital economy to link to for it's growth.

At that point, it would seem reasonable to me to inject greenhouse gasses into the Martian atmosphere from Phobos and Demos, because they also appear to have significant Carbon.  The injection of Hydrogen might scrub the Chlorine out of the Martian atmosphere, allowing the formation of some incresed Ozone.

So, by 2070, a path towards a Mars where the average pressure is 11 Millibars, and Ozone makes it easier for plant life to prosper on the surface.  By that time gentic engineering may have also unlocked some of the impediments to primitive plant life living on Mars.

I know that it is typically supposed that it might take 100 years to warm Mars up with a facility on the surface producing greenhouse gasses, but what if Phobos and Demos really took off economically, as an integrated part of a near solar system economy?  One short cut might be to add some greenhouse gasses and to then impact a NMO (Near Mars Orbit object) or two onto the CO2 deposits in the south polar ice cap.  Perhaps that could short cut the 100 years to get to 11 Millibars average down to 50 years?

Summary:  I think that if Phobos and Demos have the characteristics I have suggested above, that the habitation of Mars is best achieved by a two step process, habitation in orbit, and then habitation of Mars itself.

I think the Moon would be fine.  Underground storrage, freeze dried remains. (Amber?)  Some type of perma-record such as etched stones, telling a portion of life storries, some artificts.

A time capsul for future astronauts if any. (Human or otherwise)  With a marker on the surface of the Moon.

I would think that the shaddowed craters of the Moon after volitiles were extracted would be a good place.  Perhaps even leave some viable DNA, if that could be possible.

5000 years in the future someone stops by?

50,000 years?

500,000 years?

5 Billion years? 

Then of course one should also be made further out in the solar system where it is more likely it will survive the Giant phase of our star.

Imagine sending a message to Billions of years into the future.

Might as well make it more than a grave yard.

I think that rogue planets are a certainty, and evidence suggests that they are common, and it is likely that many may have subsurface habitats suitable for life.
It might be necessary to go down 10 miles for that, but also if it is a planet with volcanism, then closer to the surface is likely.  I really expect that more likely there were comets and asteroids expelled from other solar systems incorporated into the gas cloud prior to condensation.  However, for a whole nursery of stars a rogue planet with a habitat?  I think it could happen.

But why I really came back to post.

I read an article posted here, and cannot find it again, however the person posting that put a link such as these in it, and it has really caused me to ponder what I think I know, and what could be.  If you can identify it, I will let that person know that I have pirated their information, and thank them.

http://www.criticalmass.uk.com/index.ph … vironment/

http://spacecoalition.com/blog/life-on- … ng_wp_cron

http://www.skymania.com/wp/2012/04/lich … html/5806/

http://www.mendeley.com/research/surviv … y-study-7/

One thing I have realized is that I have to appologize to the people at Red Colony.  I thought it was perposterous that Mars could be seeded with Lichen, since I have always been told that the UV flux on the surface of Mars is lethal to all life.  I believe that in these experiments or similar ones CyanoBacteria also survived similarly.  Again, if there are any persons from Red Colony here, I appologize for the non-belief.  (I did not express it much, but I was very negitive in my thinking).

So, to be done with it I will express what I have thought about, search for and also my conclusions and speculations.

The Lichen is part fungus, and then part CyanoBacteria or Algae.

Fungus loves to inhabit the places between my toes, because I go to the gym.  I take great measures to stop it.

So, as expressed in the articles, a crack in a rock is a great improvement beyond the general Martian environment, having some resemblance to the gap between my toes.

I did some checking on Lichen, and discovered that in addition to producing acids to break down rock, they with that process produce salts, organic salts I guess it said.  So, this I think could have big implications as to how the crack in the rock could be moisturized, and how liquid water could exist below 0 Degrees C in that crack.

I also speculate that even without the production of salts by Lichen, salts should collect inside cracks anyway, since if there are wind born dusts with salt in them, and if there are temporary dews in the cracks of the rocks, then some brine should result.

In either case, brine tends to attract moisture into itself, and of course serves as an antifreeze.

Brine can be so concentrated that it poisons life, but during the day night freeze thaw cycle, brine should separate into a less briny part of ice and a more briny part of liquid.  Then during the morining warm up, the ice might melt, at lets say -15 Degrees C to 0 Degrees C, and be available as a life giving drink to a life form.

Sea ice has a habitat that may have parallels:
http://www.arctic.noaa.gov/essay_krembsdeming.html

So in the morning the lichen might get a drink of water at perhaps -5 Degrees C.  Then perhaps it has to behave like a cactus.  I beleive that Lichens are in fact very much like that, since they grow in deserts also.  I read an article about Lichens in Antarctica, which said that the reason they were not more prevalent over the land surfaces was not the cold, but rather the lack of moisture on those land surfaces.

I have also surmised that the "Toes" shall we prefer to say, that is the rock on either side of the "Crack" will have accelerated cooling at night and will then draw heat out of the crack, and prepair it to condense water vapor when it becomes available in the early morning.  I am not sure which will heat the more duing the day, the "Toes" or the "Crack".  I expect it would be variable according to the angle of the sun to the structure, and that structures themselves will be variable.

What I have read and already knew was that water expands and contracts with heat and freezing/thaw.  Salt also expands and contracts in accordance with moisture content and heat I think.  And so do Lichens.  This along with the acids and salts tends to break down the rock and provide nutirients.  On Mars, I am sure dust conveyance from the wind would also provide nutrients, and perahaps also hostile factors.

So, I am guessing that for Lichen on Mars, the two factors that would be major is sunlight sometimes, and moisture.  Sunlight is ubiquitous across Mars, with approximately similar amounts of it during a Martial year.  It might be modified by terrain, such as a shady canyon, or perhaps a mountain exposed to the maximum.

I cannot say where the best dews are, but I could speculate that the Equator is not unfavored.  It has comparitively frequent and regularized day night cycles as opposed to the poles.  So I would look to Hellas in the summer, and the Marriner Rift Valley system more parts of the year.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 3309002323

PIC:

Ice fogs then, as a favorable factor.  The moisture decends from the atmospheric column at night, and sometimes makes a fog in night in low places.  Therefore concentrating mositure.  In the very early morning the fog dissapears, but I would presume that at that point the atmosphere has a high humidity at a low elivation.
It is also at that point that the crack in the rock where lichen might live, would be at it's coldest temperature.  If the relative humidity of the air is at 50%, and the crack has a temperature 20 degrees Fahrenheight below that air temperature then condensation will occur.  Likely the air might be even more saturated with mosture, and likely the temperature differential may be greater as the morning progresses.

I am still concerned about the Ultra Violet light, but the experimenters said the lichen put up with it for more than a month, so I am more inclined to think that Lichen may have endured periods in history on Earth where Ultra Violet flux was very high, and it still carries this ability.  I will presume this until shown otherwise.

So, I think that apparently surface or near surface (Crack) life is possible on Mars, and I think that whereever life originated in the solar system, it has been shared.
Lichen is ancient on Earth, so the probability of it on Mars increases.  Or perhaps something like it.

If I were to look for life on Mars now, it would be either in freshly exposed subsurface ice, or somehow fly a probe into the rift valley, and take a cotton swab, and take samples out of the cracks in rocks where some salt is likely to be present to allow tiny amount of temporary brine.

The sooner known the better, for planning purposes.

GW Johnson said:

Well I agree that that is closer to our actual scope of abilities, so you are not wrong.

However placing a moon into a geosynch and bonding it by gravitation does present the possiblity that the spin of the planet Mars can be used to generate large amounts of power as the apparatus attached to that moon cuts the magnetic lines of force of the plasma from the sun.

On the other hand if it did slow down the crust and create a magnetic field, that magnetic field could not extend to geosynch or it would choke off the process.

But the captured moon notion is for a race of beings beyond human kind I would think.  If humans ever achieved that, then they would have graduated to a new level in my opinion.

So, I think you may be quite correct, long before that achievement the most likely method could be to capture asteroids into Mars orbit, and cook the volitiles out of them with solar concentrators, to produce a thicker atmosphere.  But then you are left with the metals and slag.  Why not make a artificial moon, make it big, and make it multi compartment hollow for habitation?  It might be a long time before it was large enough to actually be used to slow down the Martian crust, but well talk is cheep, and I will be a long time gone before anyone makes those decisions.

Spacenut said:

Well, I will agree that those are big.  However I am also inclined to entertain the notion that:
1) Photons striking the sunlit side of a planet cause a different electical charge than the dark side has, and I expect ground currents to run deep into the Planet, producing heat.
2) I expect that the solar wind which is magnetic and very energenic induces currents into the Earth and Mars, in diferent ways, because Earth has a significant magnetic field and Mars does not.  However, Mars must have significant feromagnetic metals that are not oxidized, and further down, other materials under heat and pressure may exhibit magnetic properties.

As you know Europa and Io use tides to heat up. 

Until recently that might not have been thought of either.

So, if this were to prove true, then Volcanism is caused not only by radioactive decay, but by electrical discharge due to solar energy, and also the solar wind.

So, if this were true, then it is possible that the Earth could remain habitible to life even after the heat from radioative decay is greately deminished.

If this were true, it would also indicate that Mars, and the Moon would be hotter inside than the radioactive decay theories predict.  I could be wrong, but I think that that may already have been confirmed for the Moon.

You see I think that solar systems start out lumpy, with collections of Ateroids, comets, and planets, in them.  If a small star were to embed itself, I think that that would stop the cloud from condensing.

So, if an Earth ejected, and with life were to wander into such a cloud, it might become the point of nucleation for a star.  Before it got too hot however, objects might splash into it and eject life. 

Earths wandering in space very likely would have life underground even in interstellar space.

Or an alternate notion is that an Earth enters a cloud, and is slowed down by friction and collection of gass and dust, enough that it begins to orbit the cloud in an eliptical orbit.  Eventually it's orbit might circularize, due to dipping repeatedly into the cloud.  So then it might nucleate something.

Perhaps asteroid newly formed and liquid inside gets infected by the captured planet.  And then that asteroid gets ejected from it's solar system and enters into a sibling domain in a stellar nursery, and infects it and so on.

If that were the case, then we might want to identify our sibling stars, the stars that were born with our star.  Could this be done by spectrometry?

Oh well, then perhaps only life on Earth.

I am not making claims I am just speaking of possibilities.

Very happy.

Add on airlock/observation pod, 2 stage Air lock 1/2 and most of the pressure differential delt with by a 32-100 foot 32 DegF water column, and a small fraction by a very simple airlock pressurized with Martian Atmosphere.

Large objects through the 2 stage airlock, people also.  The observation tower as an airlock?  Emergencies only.  Otherwise look at the sun and the sky and the stars at night.

Well, I had some problems with that, but anyway the picture is not that good, but you get the idea.  The two stage airlock on the left does most of it's work with a water column in a tube where the water is at 32 DegF / 0 DegC.  It also requires a standard airlock to handle perhaps 1/40 the of the load, and would do so by moving the air pressure from 6 to 25? Millibars.  Of course I have not shown the two sets of doors, 1 at the top of the water column, and 1 to get out to the Martial ambient environment.

The observation tower would mostly be that.  See the sun, see the stars.  However, it might also be used as an emergency airlock more like a standard airlock, it had such an airlock on a side of it, or in emergencies, it might function like the other air lock.  Mostly it would be a observation tower to help keep sanity.

Speeking of sanity, it's Friday.  Talk to you later.

Nice.

I value your decisions.  Here is my response:

You might notice the curtain, which might allow temperatures as I have speculated, in conjuntion with styraform tiles with concave cavites within which air bubbles might exist, where Houdini would be grateful to have a breath of air.  I might also add that duck weed might be able to live there if given light.

I expect that the pond would turn into a lake.

I have shown a "Dry Box" where you might suppose to grow dry land crops.  I suggest that a humidity 100%< might occur if the cold water of the bottom were used.

I understand that for a rise of 20 DegF, we might expect the humidity to drop from 100% to 50%.

As another feature, it might be expected that a rock formation would resist the grinding force of the glasier.  In that case if the glasier were slow moving then tunnels into soft rock might also yield caves where dry land things might grow.

However, don't let me inhibit solar greenhouses.  I have my own notions, I don't want to stifle the innovation of others.

Please, others, do speculate.  I will respect.

A glacier 1/2 mile thick the size of Los Angeles such as what is thought to exist in Hellas would last quite a long time, being used in the manner you suggest, especially with water consirvation.  Mars would likely be all the way terraformed before it ran out.

I suggest that at convenience, that a feature would be added.  That would be to line the bottom with a layer of rogolith, for a 32 foot deep pond I suggest about 3 feet thick.  (Sorry about the non metric, I think faster native).

That would serve several purposes.
1) Fresh water at 39 degrees F is heavier than fresh water at 32 degrees F.  Therefore the rigolith being an insulator, the bottom of your pond can rise to 39 degrees maximum before the water starts turning over.  (Don't want that, it would melt the ice).

2) It would serve as ballast.  If the pond had an ice floor, there is always a chance that a block of ice would break loose from the lakebed and float up, with the pond water flowing beneith it.  So the 3 foot layer of rigolith is ballast to hold it down.

3) Oxidation.  Substances in a reduced state introduced to the bottom of the pond will "Rust".  This will produce Hydrogen.  Plants growing in the pond will produce hydrocarbon solids, and Oxygen.  Unless the situation is reduced, you cannot have an increase in hydrocarbon mass.  You could if you threw away some of the Oxygen, but why do that?  We would want hydrocarbon mass to make plastics from I am thinking.  So plastics from rusty iron, or other poorly oxidized rigolith.

What comes next here is a trial balloon.  Don't get too warped about it.

I suggest that water from the pond could be boiled in the daytime using solar concentrators.

The steam could be piped under the ice.  Remember that the pressure just under the ice would be perhaps 100 Millibars or more.  This means that the steam will be rather warm, not hot.  It could drive a turbine in a lamp unit to produce electricity to light the lamp.  The light would shin down on the pond floor perhaps 20 feet below?  (The water would have to be exceptionally clear for this to be a good plan)  Perhap the plants would be in plantes attached just below the light fixture.

The warm steam would quench into 32 degrees Faharenheight water and if controlled properly, would leave a residue at 39 degrees Fahrenheight that would fall to the pond floor because it would be heavier than the 32 degree water.

I am thinking of plastic pipes for the steam and condensate.  That is because plastics will print in a 3D printer easier, and the steam temperatures might be low enought that they would not be damaged.

Utilizing this method, it becomes obvious that there is a real danger that the pond will overheat, so;

Ammonia and water mixture carries heat from the pond floor (Don't know that plastic pipe will put up with that, so that could be a problem).
Ammonia is boiled out of the mixture and passed through a turbine at the surface, where the Ammonia is recondensed, and sent back the the mixture.
This of course will be most powerful in the night and during winters.  I am afraid it will requre serious radiators, not plastic ones.  Not certain, but thinking so.

And then there is the possiblity that you can have enclosures inside of the lake, and send some of the steam into them to warm them up, and so those could easily be at higher temperatures than 39 Degrees F.

Final thought.  You could make a styraform tile block, and apply it to the bottom of the ice, inside of the pond, and it would eventually freeze to the ice.  Of course styrfoam can get waterlogged, so some work needs to be done there.

And even more final those styrafoam blocks can have air pockets on their bottoms.  Some parts of the styrafoam blocks deeply submirged, and some having air pockets in concave cavities.

GW Johnson said:

I think Lewis might have mentioned this as well.  OK.  I will run with it.  (To be honest I have old archives where I suggested similar for canals to convey water, but I would prefer to lay down a vapor barrier under the soil and perhaps a layer of styrafoam).

However I don't want to be an idea moocher, so other than as a passing comment the above is if little significance.

I see that you are intending to employ native materials.  Ice, water from ice and regolith.
Can we call this the minimum method?  Otherwise to get fancy a large amount of fancy manufactured materials are required for the structure itself.

Later, I would indeed utilize fancy materials, which would allow much higer water temperatures, but you do have a formulation which minimises the burden of such effort intense materials.

I might add that in addition to wired electiric lights, there are the options, of fiber optics to convey solar energy in, and also pneumatic transfer of power to light fixtures with on board turbine generators.  (That way no current carrying conductors in water.  Just sealed lights, and a pressurized air supply, and a pipeline to drain that back to atmospheric vacuum).

Or Steam from solar concentrators, which would push steam through pipes to turn turbines in submirged lighting fixtures.

Or if the lights were LED's and did not give off much heat, then they could be embedded in the bottom layer of the ice, just above the water, and then the wires could indeed be "Dry" inside of "Conduit" inside of slots cut in the ice, and accessable for repairs by digging in the rigolith and cutting the ice.

Further there is the option of Chemosynthisis, where chemicals such as Oxygen and Methane would feed organisms.

I see one weakness in your plan.  The Regolith, has a higher specific gravity than the Ice.  However Trucks drive out on icy lakes and get away with it.  With good engineering and a thick coat of ice it most likely will pass OK.

However if it were a concern, I suggest a trench like pond, so that the ice layer can "Grip" the sides and be stabalized that way.  Even beyond that a serpintine trench which would likely do even better (Not sure). 

The point is, I think we finally have an point of agreement,  a path forward with this.  I am very happy.

Putting up with 0 Degrees C may be a neccessity at first, but as I have said when the economy becomes larger and luxury is more available, I suggest that the rigolith be mixed with styrafoam, to make the mixture have a specific gravity of .9 which matches water ice, and I suggest that large lakes could be the order of the day.  In that case, those rigolith covered lakes could easily have enclosures of materials which would allow temperatures inside well within the comfort zone of humans without suits, and also suitable to any fresh water aquatic life desired.

I also mention in passing that I have read of efforts to make underwater breathing apparatus, which can extract disolved Oxygen from water.  This might be a useful tool.

Thanks for your comments.

Just some links about Mars Ice for those inclined to investigate:

The phrase I googled: "Thickness of subsurface ice on Mars"

http://www.planetary.brown.edu/pdfs/3966.pdf

http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~norb1/Papers … eages2.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 3586901703

http://thesis.library.caltech.edu/1586/ … apter1.pdf

http://www-geodyn.mit.edu/mitrofanov.grl07.pdf

http://www.mendeley.com/research/global … -ice-mars/

http://www.upi.com/Science_News/2010/03 … 267625725/

This one:
http://www.universetoday.com/58518/mro- … rtian-ice/

CO2:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/300/5 … 1.full.pdf

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 … 05781.html

http://elements.geoscienceworld.org/con … 1.abstract

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1986Icar...67....1F

http://science.nasa.gov/media/medialibr … TAGGED.pdf

http://www.astronomynow.com/news/n1003/05ice/

http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/June02/MarsGRSice.html

GW Johnson

I think that baisically we are on a similar page.

You want the glass full, and I am trying to deal with it only partially full.

However, to fill it first comes a point where it is partially full.  So I am trying to find alternate methods for agriculture for that period of time where Mars is only partially terraformed, or initially terraformed.  Economics will not pay for the terraforming of Mars, unless it can be utilized effectively during the terraforming process.

It will have to pay it's own way.   There will have to be a point in time where agriculture of some kind is possible in one place on Mars above others, and I think that could be Hellas, so I use it for my example.

I have suggested as my most optimistic proposal, uncovered irrigated fields.  If Mars were terraformed to have 23 Millibars in the bottom of Hellas, then indeed ice water could be squirted onto Reindeer Moss fields, and it would in fairly short time evaporate from the surface, but some droplets would be retained in the soil.  Eventually they would evaporate.  In fact right now, if the soil in the bottom of Hellas had ice in it and you heated it, droplets of liquid water can persist for a time inside of the soil.  But yes they will evaporate in time.  The water will not boil however at 11.78 Millibars and 0 Degrees C, or if it were even colder salt water.

In the deserts of California, Colorado water can irrigate fields with water.  It does not boil, but in the hot sun it will evaporate.  Droplets of water will persist in the soil, but will eventually evaporate.  It does not boil at 1010 Millibars and a temperature of 90 Degrees C.

So I have to say that that it is mechanically possible.  You are correct, water is unstable.  It also is in California.

So, the next important factor is Economics, or Practicality, whichever you might prefer.

I have suggested irrigation water from the ground, and then the Glaciers in Hellas, and then the South Polar Ice Cap.

Practicality and Profit would determine if it were to be done, the movement of sufficient water to the bottom of Hellas. 

As for the choice of an open field or a covered field, that is also based on economics and practicality.  The value of the water.  If its expensive water then consirving it matters.  A covering which retains mositure might make economic sense.  Also, if a temperature above freezing cannot be achieved in an open field, then a covering is also desired.  And of course there is the matter of Ultra Violet light.  If no ozone layer exists, then a covering is a must, and it must protect the fields from UV damage.

Reindeer Moss exposed to atmosphere is actually an ambitious and perhaps poor choice relative to Moss which will grow under water, and likely under water which is under ice.

So for the purposes of water consirvation, I prefer ponds covered by Ice, and that ice covered by a vapor barrier, and then the mechanical enclosure must also at a minimum provide UV protection. 

Beyond that if it is economically correct, such enclosures might have a greater internal pressure, but then if they leak that leakage takes moisture with it.

In the bottom of Hellas, a large plastic bag filled with ice water will not boil, and will not evaporate beyond the permeability of the plastic to moisture, or if the bag should be punctured.  (Here I am presuming that the bag is kept at 0 Degrees C).  The pressure inside of such a flexible bag should be ambient atmospheric pressure + the pressure of the static water column.  So for the best present case, 11.78 Millibars + whatever debth of water you are measuring the pressure at.

The question is can enclosures be created which are as effective as a plastic bag?  Another is can make up water be gathered at an economic cost to replace losses that are indeed assured to occur?  And finally are the plants that can be grown of a reasonable economic value to justify the effort?

Selective breeding and genetic engineering may alter the answers.

Finally I want to point out that the reason to have a layer of ice is so that the surface is colder than 0 Degrees C.  This depresses the vapor pressure, and reduces the evaporation rate.  At the same time it increases the pressure of the liquid water, a sort of counter pressure suit for a pond.  Yes if exposed, it will evaporate to the atmosphere, but be less inclined to do so than open water.

If for some reason an enclosed pond were created at the bottom of Hellas, then I estimate that for about 11? months, the pond might be frozen solid, and the ice surface temperatures would be very low.  This would be winter.  It is possible to add heat to allow liquid water, to utilize the scaps of sunlight that would occur in the winter, but the Summer would be the favored time to utilize sunlight with long days, and shorter nights.  So 1/2 of the year, water would be easily consirved with a moisture cover.  Then for most of the summer, the pond would be ice covered ice water.  Then if it were favorable to the plants inside, perhaps a few weeks in the summer, the surface ice could be allowed to melt.  At this time period the risk of loss of water to atmosphere would be largest, but then that would be the logical time when the moisture barrier would have previously refirbushed to it's maximum effectiveness.

If irrigation water is available, then these are economic and not purely mechanical questions.

If I have expressed any science errors here I prefer to know about it.

Thanks for the info.

Since this is on topic more or less, and you guys would have high powered thinking as I might access, before I wander off (And I really do want to take a long break),
I have a notion, and some has already been mentioned, I would feedback both possitive and negitive on it.  It is not that I think I have some wonderful new idea, it is that my internal knowledge is not sufficient to settle the questions, and some here might put some weight to it.

I mentioned a pulse rocket, I guess it could make sense if you split water that you had on board of a orbital rocket, and then wanted to burn it for propulsion.  I presume pressurized storrage tanks, filled up and then a pulsed burn.  (In this case the notion is that you would want to avoid the complications of storring cryrogenic fluids.  The strength I see is that you can wait between pulses, and perhaps not need engines with an elaborate cooling system. (No channels with liquid Oxygen and Liquid Hydrogen).  Of course those channels also serve to heat the burnable gasses, which I suppose might be wanted.  The other deficiency might be that the thermal shock of a pulsed engine might fatigue the nozzle.  Even so if humans wanted to manufacture rockets at remote locations where a reasonable energy source existed, and plenty of water, this rocket would be perhaps simple enough for them to manufacture off of Earth.

Plasma Engines as I have seen in the literature have had great advancement, they apparently have static Magnetic Nozzles?  I am not sure but I believe that they typically do not handle water or Oxygen, but very likely might superheat Hydrogen to a plasma.  I understand that Plasma is magnetic.  However, the dynamics of magnetic plasma structure elude me.  I do know that if plasma touches solid matter, or perhaps gas that is significantly colder, it will quench, and also very likely alter/damage a solid structure.

So, my weird question evolves to:
1) Can you generate a chemical burn pulse.
2) Can you then add energy by some means, to turn the tail end of that to plasma.
3) Can you eject the magnetic plasma using magnetic means.  That is can you use an increasing magnetic repulsive pulse to push that magnetic plasma away even harder, therefore generating thrust.

Nozzle<Chemical Burn<Plasma Expansion<Magnetic Repulsion / Leaky Tokomack >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

A sort of Plasma Ejecting Mass Driver.   

It might help me to have a stronger mind for space propulsion if I know what my wrong thinking is in this matter.
Help would be appreciated.