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#51 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Orion (CEV / SM) - status » 2008-04-18 17:07:19

"spin" is not so dangerous than a fails of the single rocket... however, my words and your word don't counts about this point since everything must be tested to know how much "spins"

Here we go again with the "but you don't KNOW I'm not right" bit.

The LAS motors will generate somewhere around 8-10G of acceleration, so if you have six of them and one fails to fire, then you are going to have 1-2G motor burning on the opposite side with nothing to counter-balance it. And that is a lot of force, which will cause the capsule to enter an end-to-end tumble perpendicular to the axis, dooming the crew.

Or one of the motors could only partially fail, and suffer a burn-through of the nozzle or casing, creating a high "sideways" thrust. This would make the capsule enter a spin around its axis, making parachute deployment impossible much less correctly orienting shield-first for landing. Again, dooming the crew.

Or these very high thrust, very high pressure motors might fail catastrophically, the explosion would tear the shield protection cover apart, shred the corner of the heat shield, penetrate the thin pressure vessel... dooming the crew.

That third item is true of any LAS system, but since the underside-LAS uses six or more motors, it is probably about six times as likely as the single-motor arrangement of the current LAS tower.

#52 Re: Planetary transportation » New idea for Mechanical CounterPressure suit » 2008-04-17 16:29:17

If the suit is too heavy for human muscles... don't use human muscles to drive the suit. Cool.

#53 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Orion (CEV / SM) - status » 2008-04-17 15:31:23

no, since, despite it's four nozzles, the LAS has a single motor, and this single motor can fail, while, if one of the 6+ motors oif the underside-LAS fails, the Orion may have a sligtly curved trajectory, but the astronauts are saved

but the SM is smaller, so, there is enough space for the underside-LAS

it's only one of dozens possible designs.

No you idiot, if one of those 6+ motors fails, with the extremely high thrust they produce, the imbalance in thrust vector will knock the capsule into an unrecoverable spin. Also, if one of these high-powered rockets explodes, the capsule will surely be destroyed and the crew killed. 6+ has a much higher risk of explosion than 1.

Furthermore, these motors will be heavy; heavier than the single motor on the LAS tower, because they have much more casing than volume due to the cube/square law with their smaller diameter.

And lastly, your idea to use the puny low-thrust attitude control motors on the capsule to control the ~10G LAS separation is nonsense, they don't have anywhere near enough thrust to do the job, and being closer to the capsule and not on the end of the tower also reduces their effectiveness further since they cannot then leverage against the center of mass.

I also reject your casual dismissal that by putting the LAS motors around the rim of the capsule the SM faring must taper to less than the capsules' diameter will cause no problems; the panels will be very close to the solar panels, if they can fit at all.

There are a number of possible designs, but your crazy idea isn't one of them.

#54 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Orion (CEV / SM) - status » 2008-04-17 15:07:31

as you've already said, 99% of rocket launch have no "tower" not even the most launched spacecraft of the story: the Shuttle

also the Gemini was launched without a tower and with (also) a truncated-cone capsule top

however, assuming a "tower" may help, it doesn't need to be so BIG and  7+ mT heavy like the Orion LAS, but just a small and very light tower like the Trident pin

Shuttle doesn't have one because the main tank and not the orbiter is at the tip of the whole vehicle, and it doesn't have an ejectable faring to place an aerospike on top of plus has the LO2 fill port. And as I said before with satellite launchers, they probably need to keep their faring to a higher altitude to protect the fragile satellite, reducing the effectiveness of the aerospike, or at the least want to avoid it for complexity sake.

The Gemini capsule, unlike Apollo or Orion, has a pointy nose and a biconic shape, it already has the aerospike "built in" so to speak.

And finally, if you are going to build a tower on top of Orion, why not put the LAS system there? Its a good place for it, since it doesn't interfere with the SM or interstage and a single large motor is more efficient than a bunch of little ones, as well as being considerably safer.

#55 Re: Interplanetary transportation » >>> another "developed internally..." idea from NASA >>> » 2008-04-17 11:46:33

So things like your underside LAS needs to be put in this thread rather than the ones created for progress status.

no, since I've already posted about the underside-LAS in its own thread (IIRC) while, in the status thread, I've just compared the giant and heavy tower-LAS with the Tour Eiffel... smile

.

Which is spam

#56 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Ares I (CLV) - status » 2008-04-16 19:09:25

Didn't you read Ciclops' post gaetano? Of all those hundreds of millions of dollars you persistently wail and gnash your teeth about per-launch, a large fraction of it goes to assembling/readying the various parts of the rocket for launch.

And if it costs a lot of money, it must be a fairly big deal. So, getting a little practice in to work out how to put together and roll out Ares-I is a pretty good idea, in addition to gathering important data on wind shear and vibration (yes, four-segment boosters cause vibration too) that you paint as the sure doom of the project.

Taking the parts of the rocket and launching them are not easy to do, you don't know what you are talking about, it just looks easy because NASA is so good at it. But good rocket engineering doesn't come cheap, and it doesn't come without testing.

#57 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Orion (CEV / SM) - status » 2008-04-16 19:00:30

that's true, but there is no extra-pounds they can transfer from capsule to LAS... if you refer to the underside-LAS, well, it will be jettisoned exactly like the tower-LAS

Huh? The biggest structural load, and hence how sturdy and heavy it has to be, would be due to the aerodynamic pressures of launch. Eliminating these pressures permits a lighter capsule, how is this hard to grasp?

Your dumb underside LAS idea is ridiculous, numerous abort motors mean increased risk of deadly failure right next to the crew or else knocking the capsule into an unrecoverable spin. They are also much too small unless you use an unrealistic number of them, and their small size leads to them having much more casing mass for either the tower LAS or MLAS system. And last but not least, the extra explosive bolts, wiring, and...

...oh yeah because the capsule is the same diameter as the rest of the Ares-I, your stupid underside LAS motors would HIT THE ROCKET when they are jettisoned as the SM faring would have to taper to a smaller diameter than the capsule in order to to tuck under the LAS motors, so you can eject them before reaching orbit. Your idea is awful.

Edit: Oh, and looking at your terrible design with the SM faring being much smaller than the capsule, where do the solar panels go?

#58 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Orion (CEV / SM) - status » 2008-04-16 18:44:03

Preliminary analysis shows that the new LAS increases payload by 545 kg.

it's not the LAS (that's is similar to the Apollo LES) but due to the more aerodynamic BPC shape

also, there is no better and more aerodynamic tower-LAS than... NO tower-LAS... and (you may like it or not) MY underside-LAS is the most aerodynamic possible (also more than a MLAS) since it's completely HIDDEN inside the SM fairing!

Wrong

The tower actually lowers drag, by permitting the rest of the rocket to "hide" under the low-pressure region generated by the tip of the LAS tower. For example, the Trident-II ballistic missile: 

trident-d5.jpg
The reason why other launch vehicles don't use this is because they are satellite launchers, and dumping the faring early like Ares-I does (along with the LAS tower) would probably subject the satellite to too much high-speed air. Or, at the least, increase complexity.

#59 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Automated Transfer Vehicle (ATV) - ESA ISS cargo carrier » 2008-04-16 12:22:52

Yes an ISS replacement... that when the present ISS wears long in the tooth, the ESA and Russia might consider building a brand new station based on multiple ATVs (up to six?) with a Russian hub, or maybe ATV(s) with inflatable modules on the front.

#60 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Ares I (CLV) - status » 2008-04-16 09:56:58

Well gaetano, NASA seems to think launching a rocket with the same mass, same dimensions, and other similar properties as the real Ares-I is worth launching for testing. They are a legion of professional aerospace engineers. You are not.

#61 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Orion (CEV / SM) - status » 2008-04-16 09:29:52

No they won't gaetano, the LAS faring may be larger, but the reduced aerodynamic strain on the Orion capsule allows the capsule itself to be lighter. Every pound that can be transferred from capsule to LAS saves several pounds of capsule mass. This is because the LAS is discarded well before reaching orbit.

The capsule then only needs to resist compressive force along the axis during reentry instead of compressive force against the walls of the capsule during launch. Viola'

And nobody is ever going to use the "underside LAS" because bolting anything to the heat shield is a terrible idea, and there would be too much equipment protruding into the service module.

#63 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Monatomic Hydrogen » 2008-04-13 21:46:24

Ehhh under those ultracold conditions, what we traditionally think of solids/liquids/gases is only loosely applicable.

#64 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Monatomic Hydrogen » 2008-04-13 10:47:11

Helium doesn't become a solid under any condition.

#65 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Monatomic Hydrogen » 2008-04-12 19:12:38

Again the same problem, the Hydrogen ions would repel each other too strongly to effectively bottle any useful mass of them.

What you might want to look at is radical Hydrogen, Hydrogen atoms with only one electron, dissolved into something else.. something solid, cryogenic, and highly inert.

#66 Re: Space Policy » Glenn Criticizes Bush Space Plan - says direct-to-Mars is the way to go » 2008-04-12 17:42:37

I kinda get the feeling that someone at the GAO has it in for NASA, probably viewing the space program as a colossal "waste" of money. In which case, their shallow, not-in-depth investigations dig up the worst information, even rumor like the Orion's mass problem.

As I have said before, political capital is just as important to NASA as the kind that comes on green paper, and the GAO is trying to get the latter by attacking the former.

#67 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Monatomic Hydrogen » 2008-04-12 15:13:30

Could we liquidise Negative Hydrogen Ions? Such Ions could be prevented from slipping through the tank walls by an electrostatic barrier.

No. No concieveable electrostatic barrier could possibly withstand the expanding force from all those negatively charged ions trying to repel each other.

Besides, even if you could, it wouldn't accomplish nothing because H- does not react with itself to form H2, as it has too many electrons. H- would also be ridiculously corrosive. What you want is monoatomic radical hydrogen, not hydride (H-) ions.

#68 Re: Interplanetary transportation » New Fuel » 2008-04-12 12:40:45

You are talking about using LOX plus a solid hydrocarbon in a hybrid liquid/solid rocket? The theoretical Isp would be similar to Kerosenes probably, but reaching that high a level of performance without the extremely intimate mixing provided by liquid bipropellants will be impractical.

The case against solid rockets for high-efficiency launch vehicles is stacked rather high with facts, like difficulty reaching high Isp, the big & thick high pressure casing, and inferior (if any) throttle control.

#69 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Ares I (CLV) - status » 2008-04-10 19:00:48

When you don't need the structural margins and redundant systems for a 0.05% risk-of-death rocket, you can afford to bump up the performance quite a bit I'll bet.

#70 Re: Interplanetary transportation » New Fuel » 2008-04-10 15:34:25

I bet the butadiene rubber used in SS1 would burn better, its much less inert than saturated versus the unsaturated butadiene to SO3 attack I would bet. But either of the polymers likely won't break down into smaller particles, more likely yielding a big gooey mess.

#71 Re: Interplanetary transportation » New Fuel » 2008-04-10 13:57:09

I've actually handled SO3, its pretty scary stuff, reacts (often violently) with water to yield sulfuric acid. One thing it won't do is react strongly with plastics, which are generally pretty inert, with some exceptions. Which plastic did you have in mind?

#72 Re: Human missions » mining lunar ice » 2008-04-10 13:48:10

Nah, the rocket doesn't spend enough time near the surface nor has that much thrust, so little in the way of volatiles are released near the surface. And as mentioned previously, at an altitude the solar wind and low gravity will carry away the exhaust, so it won't fall back down again.

#73 Re: Interplanetary transportation » New Fuel » 2008-04-08 21:12:22

Actually Jumpboy, Dichlorine Heptaoxide would have much worse Isp than LH2/LOX, because the exhaust products are much lighter (H2O). Chlorine and a lot of Oxygen are pretty heavy.

Cl2O7 would classify as a "nightmare chemical" too... You couldn't pay me enough to work with the stuff under any circumstance. Wikipedia even says it will form Perchloric Acid, not something you want in a rocket!

#74 Re: Interplanetary transportation » New Fuel » 2008-04-06 21:24:53

You really, really don't want to mix hydrocarbons with LOX.

For that matter, you would also have trouble with settling of the solid.

#75 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (VASIMR) » 2008-04-02 22:22:51

I have a question that pertains to rockets but not the VASMIR, For my ISS Module ship project  I am working on I have come across the deleted Propulsion Module that would have been able to dock with the Unity Module and provide manuevering and other course correction's.

Would this module be able to be uprated with the orbiter engine pods to provide enough thrust to make it to the Moon and onto Mar's and then make a return voyage back to the Earth?

Depends. Payload, fuel budget, power supply...?

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