New Mars Forums

louis wrote:

Let's assume humans need 1.5 kg of water per person a day (probably an overestimate in the context of a space mission). For a 3 person mission that will be something like 3.3 metric tonnes of water over a two year period.  It would be a lot simpler to land that on the surface (not necessarily all in one go).  Then the first settlers can prospect for water themselves and will be much more effective using the equivalent of hand-held road drills on the surface.

Surviving on Mars means stop thinking in terms of consumption. Instead think of recycling. Water does not go away, it goes in a cycle. ISS recovers breath and sweat by the cabin dehumidifier. Obviously that has bad breath and body odour mixed in. It's filtered before returning to the drinking water reservoir. Urine is collected and filtered. Equipment on the American side of ISS is already rated to process wash water, although they haven't installed a sink or shower. I have argued feces must have moisture extracted and filtered. Instead of a mechanical/chemical system, you could use a biological system.

There is room on Mars for a greenhouse, so either use a grey water sewage processing system to convert sewage (black water) into processed water (grey water) suitable for water crops. Plants will transpire moisture through their leaves, that humidity will condense on cold windows dripping down to a collection trough. I'm told that water is much better tasting than NASA's water recycling system. But you need a big greenhouse to do it.

One former Mars Society member is Terry Kok. He advocated a composting toilet instead of grey water system. He had detailed micro-biology information to support his thesis. And he built a small subsistence farm with a composting toilet, producing humus that he buries in his garden. You have to be careful with this system. Ensure you don't spread E. coli on vegetables.

One design student in the UK came up with a recycling shower. It uses a cyclonic filter, based on a cyclonic vacuum cleaner, but for water. Then a regular filter. 70% of the water that goes down the drain comes out the shower head. This greatly reduces both water consumption, and energy to heat water. The only catch is don't urinate in the shower. The system filters out soap, shampoo, grease and soils from skin, dirt and debris, but isn't designed to separate urine from water. I think this system will be used in areas with chronic water shortage, like L.A. It could also be used on Mars. Water that doesn't immediately get recycled back through the shower head would go to sewage treatment.

This means we won't need that much water.

Louis I agree that the "potential profitability of a Mars colony" is there but only after you get by the legal binding contracts, Rights to privilege question and then finally the legalizes that will follows to interpret the contracts followed by who pays for what. Then only once the pilgrim can afford to ship back goods do we have to trust that the ones back here on Earth will for fill the other end of the contract to pay for the goods.

RobertDyck wrote:

I started this discussion with a proposal for an advanced stage of Mars settlement. When we have towns on Mars, and one city. I suggested one corporation would lead that settlement. New arrivals would be

Employment:

etc.

I see your reasoning with this, but I think you look at corporations through rose-coloured glasses. Maybe that's how the labour market works in Canada, on a good day. But the sorts of organisations that can fund a Mars colony, in my opinion, are simply not that charitable!

I am strongly against replicating the sick structure from Earth, on Mars, particularly given that Mars is an environment where you can't just walk away, and where technically not even the air is free.

terraformer wrote:

martienne,

It seems you would prefer everyone else pay for a select few elites to live in your idea of a perfect society...

Where do you get that from?  I haven't made any suggestions about who pays, because I think that's the big obstacle to Mars colonisation.
.

My criteria:
- flat and smooth, to make landing safe. There is ice in the side walls of canyons at mid-latitudes, but landing in a canyon is not safe.
- close to the equator, because it's warm. And to provide consistent sunlight through the year. Within an arctic circle, there will be months with continuous sunlight during the summer, and continuous dark in winter. At mid latitudes that won't happen, but daylight will be long during summer and short during winter. Whether you plan for an ambient light greenhouse or photovoltaic arrays, sunlight is important.
- low altitude because that means more atmosphere over your head for radiation protection. Preferably below the datum. Ideal is 2km below the datum, which means the bottom of the dried-up ocean basin in the north hemisphere, or the bottom of Hellas Basin.
- ready access to lots of water.
- ready access to other resources, although you'll never find everything in one spot. Useful resources:
... hematite concretions: rich iron ore
... anorthite or bytownite: types of feldspar that can dissolve in acid, and can be processed to produce aluminum. Note: common Mars regolith is about 1/4 bytownite.
... white silica sand: can be melted to form glass. However, processing feldspar for aluminum will produce silica gel as a byproduct. That can be calcinated then melted to form glass instead.
... potash: potassium salt, fertilizer for greenhouse, needed for either soil or hydroponics. Found at the bottom of a dried-up ocean basin, or dried-up salt-water sea. Could be found at the bottom of a pool on the coast that became isolated from the sea.
... thorium: fuel for nuclear reactor. Mars Global Surveyor looked for thorium, found it at high altitude dry locations, not the bottom of a sea.

The "frozen pack ice" found in Elysium Planitia looks ideal. It has everything but thorium. It's at 5° north latitude, so warm for Mars. Estimates by the European Space Agency are that it's 800km by 900km and on average 45 metres (148 ft) deep. That makes it larger than the North Sea. To put it in North American terms, it's larger than all the Great Lakes combined, in both surface area and water volume. NASA shrugged it off as lava, but detailed study by ESA shows it isn't lava. It was formed about 2 million years ago by volcanic activity melting permafrost in the bottom of the dried-up ocean basin. Water pooled, then froze. I would recommend landing on the coast of this pack ice, not on the ice itself. Exhaust from landing rockets could melt the ice, causing the hab to sink in. At the coast you could run a hose to the ice, and melt some for water. Since this is the bottom of the ocean basin, it won't just be salty sea water, it will be highly concentrated brine. A reverse osmosis filter will desalinate that. There should be potash deposits somewhere in the area; perhaps the ice itself will have potassium salt.
http://www.daviddarling.info/images/Ely … _large.jpg

Certainly Louis, err.. Apparently

http://www.damninteresting.com/warm-blooded-plants/

In this case stored fuels providing the heat in the spring to melt snow not sure if the Oxidizer is stored or breathed:
http://cdn.damninteresting.com/wp-conte … sskunk.jpg

Thermogenesis is rare in plants, but does occur in several species of Arum, and in the philodendron, as well as the skunk cabbage. The heat generation of these thermogenic plants is not trivial, either. Recent measurements of the titan arum “Ted”, at UC Davis, showed the inflorescence— the flower-like structure of the arum— could maintain a temperature of 32 degrees Centigrade (90 F), well above the surrounding air temperature of 20 C (68 F). The skunk cabbage can do even better, maintaining temperatures as high as 35 C, even when the air temperature is below freezing.

If a organism saw an advantage in getting a drink of water, perhaps it would expend stored energy.  That could be Hydrocarbons previously manufactured, or stored Oxidizer, perhaps the salts, and also from the atmosphere, perhaps CO and O2.  How the O2 would be collected is not understood, since Hemoglobin would be clogged with CO.  But perhaps some different variation of the theme.  So potentially stored energy, and real time obtainable chemical energy.  Plus of course a solar contribution.  On the surface.

I have seen articles citing water from ice contacting salts, or aquifers, or humidity from the air acting with the salts to provide water.

I have not seen addressed the humidity inside of rocks and soil, particularly the pore space in rocks, and also the "Void" spaces between discrete items composing regolith.  Those pores and voids I think should have some type of median humidity, and the deeper you go as a rule the more steady it should be.

A sort of averaging of extreme humidity variations in the air, and on the surface.

So, the conduction of water vapor through the medium of the soil.  This being driven by various forces.  For instance higher humidity donating to lower humidity areas in general.  Also there should be a skin effect on the particles, where moisture may have an affinity for some more than others.  And of course ionic forces.  I suppose there might be other, but I think I have said enough.

So, without liquid aquifers, can you have vapor aquifers?  Might your vapor aquifers communicate with salty or not salty aquifers deep below?

Does vapor coming up replenish a fresh water permafrost, and can salts on the surface permeate that, creating a wick, and under certain temperature conditions, cause the salt wick to become hydrated?

Are some locations more prone to leak humidity upwards to the surface?  Do some locations absorb humidity into the soils and send them elsewhere?

Now with or without life in them these things are of interest.  Since the Equator of Mars is most habitable except for water, we are interested in a source of water there, with life or without life.

Can you create more such?  Can you enhance them?  That is if water vapor is moving upwards in an area, can you place down salts on the surface to collect the vapors?  What if you put a glazing over that, and change the temperature profile?

Nice stuff, I think.

I have no desire to interfere with your dialog with GW, Louis.   However, it just occurred to me a possible type of energy source for life on Mars, perhaps a bit unlikely, but I will offer it anyway.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 … 143731.htm

As I previously mentioned, a nighttime cold low should separate a precipitant of salts and a brine of reduced salt content from a combination of the two, presumed to be produced during the warmer day.  If a life form could interpose itself between these separated materials, it might be able to generate power for itself by allowing the two to interact between a membrane.  In the process, if somehow during the night it could capture a portion of brine partially reduced of salts by cold, capture that into a vacuole inside of it's body, and if later the sunshine on the film of protective salty soil above would warm the entire organism, then that water in the vacuole might be available as a drink of water.

RED stacks extract energy from the ionic difference between fresh water and salt water. A stack consists of alternating ion exchange membranes -- positive and negative -- with each RED membrane pair contributing additively to the electrical output. Unfortunately, using only RED stacks to produce electricity is difficult because a large number of membranes is required when using water at the electrodes, due to the need for water electrolysis.

Using exoelectrogenic bacteria -- bacteria found in wastewater that consume organic material and produce an electric current -- reduces the number of stacks needed and increases electric production by the bacteria.

I confess that this is all rough guessing, but since my income does not depend on it, no harm done, perhaps time wasted through.

So, in my mind not entirely out of the question.

And as I mentioned in my previous post, perhaps the CO in the atmosphere might give such an organism the ability to cope with the Oxidative nature of those brines that are the topic of this thread.

Optimistically of course.

Checked power calculation (with urine processor):
toilet: 375 watt peak, 0.071875 kWh per day
water processor: 915 watt peak, 1.40 kWh per day
urine processor: 424 watt operating, 108 watt standby, 255.2 watt continuous
oxygen generation: 1.73 kW continuous
CO2 removal: 0.259 kW continuous
dehumidifier: 0.6 kW continuous
circulation fan: 0.312 kW continuous
Total: 3.2 kW

With the equivalent of 5 Tesla Powerwalls, that will give the ITV 10.8779 hours, or 10 hours, 52 minutes, 40 seconds. That does not include power for communications, electronics, lighting, or control of manoeuvring systems. Just power down to 100% life support.

I said in another thread that the surface hab will require more, I suggested 2 Mars solar days. That's 49.32 hours. That will require a battery equivalent to 22.7 Tesla Powerwalls. Again that only includes power for life support. The surface hab will require a big battery.

Also note; I believe the Tesla Powerwall uses lithium polymer batteries. It has the same charge to mass ratio as lithium ion, but lithium polymer is substantially less expensive. But lithium polymer can be much more easily damaged, and if an intermal membrane is ruptured it can balloon up with generated gas. A lithium polymer batter has an aluminized outer bag rather than a metal casing; if that is ruptured to allow air in, as soon as oxygen touches the lithium anode it will burn, generating thick black smoke. When I worked at Micropilot, they got some of the first lithium polymer batteries for the drones they were testing. To test software for the autopilot they manufactured, they used a model airplane kit purchased from a local hobby store. The software didn't always pass the tests. Sometimes they lost control, had to follow the drone until it ran out of fuel and crashed. One crash did damage a battery, it did balloon up. The technician looked up procedure to properly dispose of the battery. Instructions from the manufacturer's website said to cut open the battery outside, in a well ventilated area with a breeze, and stand upwind. He did that, and a few of us watched. It had a red glow as the lithium anode burned, and thick black, stinky smoke. The technician said he'll never do that again. This reminded me of reports that a Boeing 787 Dreamliner filled with thick black smoke while taxiing to the runway. They had to stop and evacuate passengers. To save fuel, that plane does not have generators in its engines. Instead it has a lot of lithium polymer batteries, which have to be charged when the plane is fuelled. Obviously one of the batteries ruptured. The Tesla Powerwall has a hard case to enclose and protect the batteries, they should get damaged. Our Mars lander will have to do the same.

Ps. That black smoke will contain lithium oxide. That's a psycho-active drug. That's what bipolar patients take to even out their mood swings. I suppose being mellow is not all that bad, but you really don't want to breathe that.

http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/wp-co … 2ea7_k.jpg

Expedition 44 crew members: Flight Engineer Kjell Lindgren of NASA, left; Soyuz Commander Oleg Kononenko of the Russian Federal Space Agency (Roscosmos), center; and Flight Engineer Kimiya Yui of the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (JAXA), right. Photo taken at the Cosmonaut Hotel in Baikonur, Kazakhstan on Tuesday, July 21, 2015. They are on their way to the orbital station on a “fast rendezvous” route. This option means that the trip will last six hours, and the spacecraft will make four orbits around Earth. In opposition to a two-day rendezvous routine, which is more economical in terms of propellant use, the “fast rendezvous” route provides a shorter and less stressful journey for the astronauts.

Soyuz TMA-17M Crew Rockets to Orbit, Bound for Five Months Aboard Space Station

Present plans call for Kelly and Lindgren to perform two EVAs in the November timeframe, following the robotic transfer of the Pressurized Mating Adapter (PMA)-3 from its current position on the Tranquility node to its final position on the space-facing (or “zenith”) face of the Harmony node. This will allow it to provide a backup docking interface for Commercial Crew vehicles—Boeing’s CST-100 and SpaceX’s Dragon V-2—from 2017 onwards. Both PMA-3 and PMA-2, the latter of which is affixed to the forward port of Harmony, will receive International Docking Adapters (IDAs), which are compatible with the Commercial Crew vehicles.

The PMA-2 interface will be the primary docking port, whilst PMA-3 will provide a backup. Unfortunately, the loss of IDA-1 aboard the CRS-7 mission means that IDA-2 will fly aboard SpaceX’s CRS-9 Dragon and will now fulfil the IDA-1 role at PMA-2, whilst a new docking adapter (IDA-3) will be assembled over the coming months from spare parts and launched at a later date for installation onto PMA-3.