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#5776 Re: Interplanetary transportation » Mars Colonial Transporter » 2015-12-26 19:55:03
Yes, we're due an announcement early 2016 I think on the MCT. Musk is a man in a hurry - he'd like to visit Mars but must know that every year that passes means he's further away from that object, unless he can somehow accelerate the project.
This may be Musk's weakness - that he's always had a strong personal involvement in Mars colonisation going back to when he wanted to send a plant growth experiment to the surface (it was his inability to find anyone able to take forward the project that led to the founding of Space X).
I do feel the MCT - whilst visionary - is not the best way forward. Musk doesn't seem to think in terms of what you do with 100 people (selected by whom and by what process?) who arrive on the surface of Mars. Or worse - what do you do with 1000 people arriving by ten such transporters within a two year period? Early Mars is never going to be an hospitable environment. The last thing you want is to find - during the early stages of a colony - that you have say 200 people who are disgruntled, unproductive or even positively dangerous in their behaviour.
We will have to see what Musk announces. But what I would want to see is a balanced ISRU development programme as being the first phase of a plan of Mars colonisation - not some grand migration via MCTs.
I think he's still planning to unveil something pretty soon. Musk seems never to get things done quite as fast as he wants. If I were he, I'd wait until the Falcon Heavy has its first launch because a lot will be learned from that. By now, he had expected to have several first stages safely landed. That didn't happen, so there is no accumulated data about refurbishment costs, and that's a rather important piece of information about going to Mars. That will also effect profitability; the sooner they can reuse rockets, the sooner they can accumulate large profits and lines of credit, and all of that leads to more experience.
#5777 Re: Not So Free Chat » Conflict between Christianity and Going to Mars? » 2015-12-26 19:43:59
A silly argument. There were plenty of atheists who died in support of the Soviet State in the Civil War and WW2 or in the Spanish Civil War. They could have hung back, but they were keen to be in the forefront of the action.
Why would an atheist want to go to Mars? He might die, conquering the frontier is dangerous, there is an increased risk of death if you go to Mars. You won't get the most advanced medical care if you go their, it is on the frontier and you are far from help. Atheists don't believe in the afterlife, so they will want to stay as safe as possible!
#5778 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Mars City - Your vision? » 2015-12-26 18:38:57
That's a great video NASA have produced there. A shame the reality doesn't match their promo. They've had nearly 50 years to get us to Mars and have failed miserably.
However, it does show the sorts of things that would be technically feasible in the early stages of settlement.
That said, I feel that with the size of the habs and pressurised vehicles they are indulging in the usual NASA trait of over-solving.
For a settlement of say 20 people there is no need for such large imported vehicles or habs in my view.
NASA should be looking at less mass-costly solutions e.g. cut and cover for lightweight inflatable habs.
Pleased to see, however, they are running with PV power - my favoured route. It's v. flexible.
I am not sure I agree with Ian M that a larger settlement needs to look to nuclear power (which I would assume means imported reactors). As the settlement grows I would recommend the colonists develop their own ISRU solutions to energy e.g. solar reflectors and concentrators to power steam turbines (to generate electricity), district heating systems and smelters and to provide the power for manufacture of methane (as the storage power system). A more mature goal would of course be Mars-based construction of PV panels.
Here is one video that NASA published on 22 Dec 2015
Mars Exploration Zones
It shows one possible vision of a Mars settlement. You'll notice the 6-wheel truck that they've been working on shows prominently in the video; several versions with different tops: pressurized rover, unmanned propellant transport. At 4:18 in the video shows a base made with cylindrical modules. It's a hodge-podge arrangement, no streets. And the modules use the same CBM hatches as ISS; I think a planet would use doors that you can walk through upright. It shows white suits in one module, and orange ACES suits in another. ACES suits were partial pressure suits used on Shuttle during ascent, they weren't intended for EVA. I don't think there's a use for them on Mars. And their "food production" is a pair of greenhouses that use artificial light; no windows. Why wouldn't you conserve power by using sunlight? But this is one vision for Mars.
#5779 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender... » 2015-12-25 20:10:26
My view is:
Our circadian rythms can work with the Mars Sol time division - great (because they are not exactly 24 hours - there is a about half an hour leeway each side)!
We should divide the Mars Sol up into 24 Mars hours, then divided into 60 Mars minutes (and those Mars minutes divided into 60 Mars seconds). Scientists and other technicians working on Mars would (in the main) continue to use Earth seconds, minutes and hours for their calculations in conformity with their colleagues on Earth.
We should abandon the Earth concept of a month - as a lunar-related concept.
We need to relate to the Mars year - equivalent to something like 1.88 Earth years and the Mars seasons.
So I think loooking to four quarters of the Mars year is a good idea (related to the equatorial (?) solstices).
We have four quarters of 167 sols divided up into 16 Mars weeks (or "decasols") of 10 sols with the working pattern over three decasols being (with the remainder of 7 sols constituting a common festive period):
Sol 1 - Off
Sol 2 - On
Sol 3 - On
Sol 4 - On
Sol 5 - Off
Sol 6 - On
Sol 7 - On
Sol 8 - On
Sol 9 - Off
Sol 10 - Off
Sol 1 - Off
Sol 2 - On
Sol 3 - On
Sol 4 - On
Sol 5 - Off
Sol 6 - On
Sol 7 - On
Sol 8 - On
Sol 9 - Off
Sol 10 - Off
Sol 1 - Off
Sol 2 - On
Sol 3 - On
Sol 4 - On
Sol 5 - Off
Sol 6 - On
Sol 7 - On
Sol 8 - On
Sol 9 - Off
Sol 10 - Off
The decasols would be grouped into 4s. So each season would comprise four lots of four decasols concluded by a common festive period of 7 sols.
The four festive periods might have relevant themes: Exploration, Terraformation, Earth and Family.
#5780 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Mars City - Your vision? » 2015-12-25 19:36:31
I think people will be suffused with that idea of personal responsibility and mutual aid - just as they are in Antarctic bases, nuclear subs and other harsh or difficult environments: adversity breeds comradeship.
I don't think the quantity to be transported is simply a function of the size of the transporter. If you look at the history of European colonisation there are lots of examples of people being transported to colonies and then failing to thrive. In this day and age we can't simply throw people at an environment and tell them to survive or die, we have to have the support infrastructure available for them when they arrive.
That's where I have a problem with Musk's ambition. I think he is looking at the problem in terms of how many people can we transport. However, really, we should be looking at it as an infrastructure problem: how quickly can we develop an infrastructure that allows tens, then hundreds, then thousands of people to survive in what is a v. challenging environment. I think as soon as you look at the details of the infrastructure problem, you see it is really quite difficult: you need millions of bricks, loads of steel and so on. Musk's MCTs - whatever their configuration - will not be long term habs for people to live in once arriving on Mars.
So my view of the problem is more like the hockey stick graph for the population: we have a slow period of development in the first few decades to arrive at a point where the Mars community can easily expand the infrastructure that will then support tens of thousands of colonists. It is difficult to determine when the "take-off" point will arrive but I would guess it will be at least 20 years.
louis I feel that everyone must contribute to the greater good
post #12
#5781 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Mars City - Your vision? » 2015-12-25 19:23:50
I prefer the very American idea of calling anything with more than one horse in it a city. 
In the 1980s I was a member of a medieval recreation group called the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA).
post # 15
#5782 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Mars City - Your vision? » 2015-12-25 19:19:44
Tom, I still think you would want the equivalent of bulkheads on a ship.
I agree about minimising surface area to atmosphere which is why I favour cut and cover construction for the early habs.
However, this city is unlikely to be built as one entirely planned, integrated enterprise. It is going to be growing by accretion as technologies develop, as we move from Earth imports to Mars ISRU and as we develop experience about what works best on Mars.
louis wrote:Yes, I don't disagree
post #11
RobS wrote:I am not going
post #10
Actually a small hab will depressurize a more quickly through the same size hole. As you increase the volume of air have less surface area in proportion to volume if you use spheres, rather than a tickety tack collection of habs connected by tunnels. You want to minimize the amount of surface area exposed to the outside. the more surface area you have, the higher the probability of atmosphere leaks to the outside.
#5783 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Mars City - Your vision? » 2015-12-25 08:39:31
Yes, I don't disagree with anything you say. I suppose I would envision that there are some separate areas of the city where habs are connected by pressurised tunnels (though still with air locks - I don't think you can have the whole city under a single pressure system, as that would be to invite a catastrophe if there was a sudden depressurisation event at one location). I would envisage the separate areas of the city would be connected by pressurised vehicles which start off in air locked bays. So, at no point do you have to don an EVA suit.
I am not sure a barber or hair stylist = use of money. There were/are army barbers who provide a free service within organisations.
I think the need for a Mars currency will come about as the economy gets more complicated and we see the development of Mars-based firms. I think you are right that cash will probably never be used - it will all be on debit/credit cards or mobile phone equivalents.
I certainly agree the various vocational percentages will change as the colony develops.
I am not going
In response to post #10
#5784 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Mars City - Your vision? » 2015-12-24 21:19:39
Many interesting angles in your post, Ian.
My comments:
1. 400 doesn't sound much until you "do the math" as the saying goes (as in how many launches would be required in order to ensure not just the survival of colonists on Mars but their ability to expand the colony). I am a great Musk fan but I think he is a bit of a romantic when it comes to this figure of 80,000. It is conceivable that 80,000 people might be able to pay $500,000 and might want to settle permanently on Mars. But 80,000 people who have the necessary fitness, courage, resilience, intelligence and so on? No doubt you are familiar with Tom Wolfe's book "The Right Stuff". The "right stuff" is pretty rare. I think creating a city of 400 within two decades (10 launch windows) would be be straining our abilities. Once you have a kind of critical mass of ISRU on Mars, the ability to welcome enthusiastic colonists will expand hugely. However, there are still a lot of unknowns - particularly how well humans do on a personal health level in one third G and whether they can reproduce healthily in one third G. Old people are a huge resource drain on a community. It seems to me far more sensible in the first few decades to simply replace young people (as in under 45) with more young people on a regular basis, rather than try and cope with an ageing population in a difficult environment.
2. Tourists in all-inclusive resorts don't need to spend money, and I think the same will apply to tourists on Mars. Currency will just be an irrelevancy in the early stages. However, there will come a point at which Mars will need to develop its own currency to stabilise its economy and its trade with Earth.
3. I probably did underplay the industrial and commercial aspects in my sketch. I do think there is great potential for developing commercial enterprises on Mars e.g. final assembly of Rolex watches to be sold at mega prices on Earth. So, yes I think I would revise that if doing it again.
4. I think with Mars's origins, any system of law will be codified. However, on the other hand, I think there will be a huge pressure towards cultural conformity in the early decades e.g. not getting very inebriated on drink or drugs for instance. It's the equivalent of being on a plane - where there is a high level of conformity to rules. You can't have people going crazy in an environment where a broken window is likely to lead to death.
5. I don't think Stayers will be important in the early decades. But when Mars becomes a relatively pleasant place to live e.g. once people know they can raise a healthy family safely, and there are large domes (or other pressurised environments such as covered gorges) where people can enjoy a sense of space, and also people can see that they can lead very productive and satisfying lives with a high standard of living - well then clearly there will be a strong inflow of people from Earth to Mars.
I imagine a city
In response to post # 2
#5785 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Mars City - Your vision? » 2015-12-24 20:50:53
SpaceNut,
The way I view Mars development is that you are doing two things at once: you are generating revenue to fund the interplanetary transits and importation to Mars of materials necessary to development and you are getting on with ISRU on the Mars surface. So I don't view setting up a University on Mars as unproductive - it will generate hundreds of millions of dollars each year to fund transits and also employ people on Mars.
This would only be two decades in. Within 50-100 years I would envisage a much bigger expansion towards a community of 100,000 which would be my target for an independent, largely self-sufficient civilisation i.e. one that could survive the complete destruction of Earth.
Thank you IanM;
In response to post #5
#5786 Re: Exploration to Settlement Creation » Mars City - Your vision? » 2015-12-24 20:44:31
That's right Ian. A very conservative figure, compared with Musk's plans for a city of 80,000! I think Mars can naturally grow to 100,000 in a few decades but the secret to achieving that is developing ISRU resources: if Musk has a plan for doing that, I don't think we've really heard it yet.
SpaceNut wrote:Did I miss the definition of the number that is in the (*).....
He said that the total population of the colony would be around 400, so I assume it's relative to that.
#5787 Re: Human missions » Mars? Moon first. - Mars is too hard and dangerous for now. » 2015-12-24 19:30:06
NASA is a kind of grand coalition of physicists, astronomers, geologists, politicians, aerospace engineers, technological innovators and pork barrel merchants.
Space colonisers hardly get a look in - which is why we have seen such tortuously slow progress in exploring Mars and the Moon. The rover technology has hardly improved in 30 years. NASA has lost its way on rocket technology, with all the real innovation being done by Space X and other private companies.
I have argued before that the USA should set up a dedicated national agency for lunar and Mars colonisation. BUt that ain't gonna happen. So, we are left with Space X as the standard bearer for space colonisation.
So far what I see is that the Moon keeps being upgraded. Although it is not equivalent to Mars, it is being discovered that it is more like Mars than the story we were told.
One thing I don't like about this site is that an idea that might be an alternative is almost always murdered in the nursery if possible, by those who have a pet notion of how things should go.
Personally I think that the primary objective of the American space program was to keep the human race from prospering in space. I do not think that that is the intention of the people who work at NASA, at least not most of them, but I do believe that social engineers showed ups just in time to sabotage the plans. Further they kept us away from an achievable objective, and also pointed us to one which was very hard, and then they made sure that not enough resources would exist to implement it.
However, the west is still full of inventors and doers. It looks like it may be possible that humans will make it to Mars anyway. On the other hand the cosmic criminals may go to deeper measures to sabotage that effort.
Therefore, it is wise to calculate options, such as Mars if it can happen, and alternately the Moon, Ceres, and Venus. For Venus and Ceres, the Moon will be of great value. Possibly for Mars it may have value. We should keep all options on the table, to make the enemies task harder.
You are at war with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blank_Slate
The Soviet Union did what it did, thinking that they could simply gather the whole population into it's training facilities, and teach them to be good. Then paradise would occur. It did not.
They are not the only ones. Just remember that the blank slate people want to retain you for their notion of a perfect world, and they most definitely do not want a branch of the human race to escape from their powers. I picked on the Soviet Union, as an example, but their are many other of this type out there, but it would not be P.C. to go into those details.
Options, keep your options open, and don't forget to slap their faces and take their Cigars.
#5788 Exploration to Settlement Creation » Mars City - Your vision? » 2015-12-24 15:27:18
- louis
- Replies: 74
Elon Musk has been talking recently about the creation of a Mars City being a very realistic prospect.
I thought it might be interesting if people here gave their vision of such a city.
Here's my conception of the first Mars City, 20 years after the initial landing.
I think the vibe of this first city on Mars will have elements of a futuristic American University Campus, a company town, an all-inclusive resort and an Antarctic Base.
I imagine the oldest structures will be the original surface habs – maybe 5-6 in number each housing about 6 people (with no rain and no strong winds, they survive well). They are all connected by pressurised corridors.
These habs will form a natural central city square, with roads leading out in several directions. Really these roads will be more like trails. They will have been cleared of boulders and will have either side marker stones painted white (or maybe a naturally pale colour).
Although there is no vegetation growing in the open air, there are individual transparent plant “booths” at intervals around the square, packed with vegetation growing inside, together with artificial trees and hedges, giving a decidedly Earth-like feel to this part of the city. There are brick paved sidewalks and a town clock (a pillar-like structure showing the sol date and time plus weather data).
Other areas of settlement will include pressurised farm hab domes not far from the central square, and numerous subterranean habs (linked by pressurised tunnels), which are barely visible from the surface.
Some two decades after the first landing, the total population fluctuates around the 400 with most people being resident for between 2 and 6 years before returning to Earth.
A recently completed structure is the Great Dome – the first rigid dome to be built on Mars (from mainly indigenous materials). This pressurised dome (with a diameter of nearly 100 metres) provides an exercise and meeting area, with plenty of natural vegetation imported from Earth: palms, ferns, cacti, trees and shrubs with a maze of paths. It is largely constructed from in situ materials. There is a café and restaurant area which is very popular. The Dome serves as cinema, concert hall and assembly rooms.
There is a smaller dome nearing completion: this is the Gymdome, which will house a full array of exercise and small scale sports facilities.
Other important buildings include the Transport Centre (where the 2-10 seater community vehicles are located) and the Medical Centre.
Set somewhat apart from the main settlement area you find the photovoltaic panel field which provides most of the power for the city: row upon row of panels, tended by robot vehicles which constantly brush and spray the panel surfaces clean. Adjacent to the photovoltaic field is a methane production facility (extracting hydrogen from water and oxygen from the CO2 in the Mars atmosphere), which feed the tanks where the methane is stored. The gas turbines draw on the tanks to produces electric power when the photovoltaic fields are not producing sufficient power (at night, or during severe dust storms).
Even further away is the Space Flight Centre – which its clearly marked circular landing zone, its rocket fuel facilities and its reception hab.
The breakdown for activity within the City is:
5% (20) Administration (Governor and staff). Planning and resource allocation; licensing; dispute resolution; earth communications oversight.
10% (40) Life Support (production and maintenance)
7.5% (30) Space Flight Centre
7.5% (30) Energy and Industrial Production (solar power, methane production, iron and steel, glass making, and brick making).
20% (80) Construction
10% (40) Mining
10% (40) Farming and food processing.
15% (60) University and Science Projects
5% (20) Exploration Projects
10% (40) Other (tourism)
University Hall is located on a rise overlooking the settlement. Here post-grad students study Mars phenomena, with a big focus on geology.
You won’t see many people walking about the City – just a few technicians and construction workers. Most people who need to move from one part of the city to another do so in small pressurised vehicles. A lot of work is also undertaken in pressurised vehicles e.g. diggers and haulage vehicles.
The pressurised vehicles enter designated air lock pods connected to hab areas, so that the Mars can enter the vehicles without the need to get into EVA suits.
The small number of tourists who visit Musk City (as it was recently designated) enjoy a city tour when they first arrive that takes in the Governor’s House, the Great Dome, and a visit to the nearby ice crater where robot vehicles mine the water ice used by the City’s residents (once it has been purified at the Life Support Centre). Another notable feature of the tour are the Mars Sculpture Park and the Mars Arts Centre. Here are displayed works designed by leading Earth based artists using Mars materials, 3D printing and local construction.
Other places of interest on the outskirts of the city include:
1. The Artificial Gravity Centre. This is where people who are suffering low gravity syndrome (LGS) go to receive treatment in an artificial 1G (or higher) environment. There is capacity for up to 60 people to experience the gravity- equivalent centrifugal force in any one Sol (ie a 7 hour period per sol for each individual).
2. The Golf Course. Golf on Mars involves use of a robot arm extending from a pressurised vehicle to drive the ball (much larger than Earth Golf’s ball) which is controlled from inside but is otherwise quite similar, though played on a much larger course, taking in a number of spectacular craters.
3. The Long Road. This is the trail over 200 kms long leading to an eastern arm of the Valles Mariensis – one of Mars’s most powerful tourist attractions.
4. The Industrial Centre. Here the colonists produce, on a small scale (using scaled down machinery and 3D printers) such items as: steel , bricks, plastics, basalt products, electric motors, solar reflectors and concentrators, farm implements, turbines and boilers.
5. The Mine Zone Area – where iron ore, basalt and other materials are mined over a 20 sq km area.
Some of the cultural aspects of the city that are notable include:
(a) The absence of money. The Mars residents mostly receive a regular salary that is paid on Earth. A certain portion of their salary will be deducted for living expenses on Mars as a regular monthly or annual payment. In return for this “Standard Charge” as it is known, people receive free services on Mars. For some retail items – e.g. clothes and luxury items - there is a rationing points system with a certain number of points allocated to each resident. However, most facilities (life support, water, accommodation, food, transport, entertainment, heating and light) are provided free of charge without rationing.
(b) There is no discernible system of criminal justice: no courts, police or prisons. However the Governor who administers the city with the help of an elected council (elected by all permanent residents of Mars – permanent being determined as staying longer than 2 years) does have the power to banish individuals to Earth. There is no appeal against such a ruling. Although there are no Police, there are several officers under the Governor who have an inspection and enforcement role. The Earth based Mars Consortium controls the finances of the colony and approves the development plan followed by the Governor in allocating resources. Most people working on Mars are either employees of the Consortium or the University.
(c) The main language is English, the international language of academia , although people from all over planet Earth are represented. However Mars English is producing some neologisms and phrases to Mars.
(d) The University dominates the cultural life of the city as one of the two main employers and a lead investor in the planet; it is also a key focus of community life.
(e) A small number of the Mars colonists, probably no more than 50, are what are known as “stayers” - people who intend to live permanently on Mars, without returning to Earth. A number work in the Farm Habs or on Life Support Maintenance in return for waiving of the Standard Charge. There are few licensed homesteads operating outside the main city area.
#5789 Re: Human missions » How much the return to the Moon and Mars-trip costs ? » 2015-12-24 07:56:44
Well obviously Musk is moving along the road map towards humans being able to get to Mars on a one way ticket at a cost of $500,000 per person.
http://www.space.com/18596-mars-colony- … -musk.html
He seems to arrive at that figure working backwards from what was needed to establish a colony of 80,000 - a rather odd approach perhaps.
A launch figure of about $2000 per kg seems to be Space X's goal. So for $500,000 you would be lifting and transporting 250kgs per person.
Anyway, I prefer a slow burn model for colonisation that doesn't involve giant transporters at an early stage bringing any old Joe or Jane, but rather sees the colony develop its own infrastructure through ISRU - e.g. solar reflectors and concentrators made of polished Mars-made steel, to power the colony, habs made with Mars-made bricks and other materials and so on - whilst at the same developing revenue streams that provide huge per capita amounts, thus allowing the colony to grow and import essentials from Earth at zero net cost.
#5790 Re: Human missions » Mars? Moon first. - Mars is too hard and dangerous for now. » 2015-12-23 21:21:56
1. There's plenty of water chemically bound in the regolith across the whole of the surface.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_water
Where it's at one part per thousand, that sounds processable to me.
2. Surely if we are Mars-focussed we would be using the Moon for Mars survival testing. We'd have our potential Mars crews doing hundreds of figures of eight around the earth and moon so as to simulate the journey to Mars and then get them to live for an extended period on the lunar surface trying out various bits and pieces designed for Mars. No serious Mars coloniser would want to just throw humans at Mars without first road testing the project on the nearest analogue i.e. the Moon.
There is some merit to the idea of Moon first, but only if you do it right. First, realize you can't harvest fuel from the Moon. LCROSS found more water than anyone expected, but it is the most concentrated spot on the entire Moon according to data from orbiters.
Download the slides from the Press Briefing on 21 October 2010
The table on the last slide stated total water (gas + ice) 0-23 seconds after impact = 4.5% ± 1.4, 23-30 seconds = 6.4% ± 1.7, 123-180 seconds after impact = 7.2% ± 1.9, average = 5.6% ± 2.9That is more than expected, but can you harvest fuel from that? And can you justify mining the richest water deposit on the entire Moon for short-term use as fuel?
I've stated before that John Wickman came up with an idea called Lunar Soil Propellant. That is mine lunar soil for igneous ore containing aluminum, smelt aluminum metal producing oxygen as a byproduct, then use aluminum powder in liquid oxygen as mono-propellant. An alternative is bipropellant: aluminum powder in one tank with pressurized nitrogen to blow it into the rocket combustion chamber, and liquid oxygen in a separate tank. He tested this under a NASA SBIR contract; it worked. The little brass board rocket engine worked.
But let's take a step back. The problem with the Moon is attempts to redo Apollo. Any hardware designed like Apollo, or any hardware designed specifically for the Moon, cannot be used for Mars. In fact it cannot be used for an asteroid, or any destination other than the Moon. However, hardware designed for Mars can be easily adapted for the Moon. That's because Mars is hard. Designing hardware for the difficult destination, then adapting for the easy one, is easy. If you design hardware for the easy destination, then it just won't work any place difficult. Robert Zubrin demonstrated this with Mars Direct. His original presentation to NASA in June 1990 included hardware for the Moon: a hab with landing rocket but no heat shield or parachute, and ERV with landing rocket but no heat shield or parachute. Any mission to Mars will use the atmosphere to slow before approaching the ground, and propulsive landing for the final phase. This combination provides the lowest mass, that's why NASA has used it for Viking, Phoenix, Curiosity, and the next lander called InSight. Landing on the Moon will not have an aeroshell/heat-shield or parachute to slow it's descent, but lower gravity means the landing rocket will be about the same as Mars anyway.
Current plans are for Orion, which is a capsule like the Apollo CSM. However, the Orion service module is only able to depart lunar orbit, it does not have enough propellant to enter lunar orbit. Under the Constellation plan, the Altair lunar lander would have an over-size descent stage with sufficient propellant to insert the entire stack (Altair + Orion) into Lunar orbit. Current test plans are for the SLS upper stage to remain attached all the way to the Moon, to insert Orion into Lunar orbit. Apollo could carry 3 men to the Moon and back, or 5 to Skylab; Orion will carry 4 to the Moon and back, or 6 to ISS. Orion has 3 weeks of life support for 4 crew members. And Orion has an AVCOAT heat shield; the same as Apollo. That's sufficient to enter Earth's atmosphere from a trans-lunar trajectory, with healthy safety margin, but just isn't good enough for direct entry from a trajectory returning from Mars. PICA was designed as an upgrade to the Apollo command module to return from Mars, although they didn't have life support back then for a mission of multi-month duration. Dragon has a PICA-X heat shield, but Orion does not. All this means Orion is single purpose: for the Moon or cis-lunar space.
If you want to use the Moon as a stepping stone to Mars, you have to start by designing for Mars, then use the Moon to test Mars hardware. Proceeding with Constellation will not do that.
#5791 Re: Interplanetary transportation » SpaceX Falcon 9R launch » 2015-12-23 05:30:01
Whilst I am in many ways a Mars First person, equally it does seem absurd to me that we have no permanent presence on the Moon. It's a mere 3 or 4 days away and in many ways is far more hospitable than Antarctica. Moreover, with sponsorship, sale of regolith and super-rich tourism and so on, it can be self-funding to a large extent.
Anyway, more details about Musk's Mars colonisation plans should be a highlight of 2016. I am hoping he is going to announce that he will launch pre-MCT precursor missions (robot and then human) from 2020 onwards.
A fantastic technical achievement. But sticking the landing is just half the battle. There's a big difference between their Grasshopper test flights and this operational launch, so this is still virgin territory. Now they have to pick that booster apart to make sure its reusable. And then they have to fly it a few times without picking it apart to prove the concept truly viable.
Still, they have already reduced launch costs considerably, and are on the cusp of slashing them in a transformative way. Its a testament of what one can do when you answer to a vision and not to shareholders.
One wonders if they will still make the effort to recover the second stage. While the first stage represents the vast majority of the cost, if you can land a capsule on a pad, you can land the second stage using all the same pieces. If nothing else, that is valuable pressurized volume that you've gotten to orbit. Waste not, want not.
Combined with the inaugural flights of the Falcon Heavy, the Dragon 2 capsule, and the BEAM module all next year, the pieces are falling into place. Poor Bigelow is basically stilling on their hands, waiting for affordable access, and it's right there. We are also due to see some renders of the Mars Colonial Transporter early next year, and after last night I think he will strike while the pad is still hot. It's unclear if that entails just a new launcher, a much larger capsule, or a full transit and surface architecture. There is a lot of ground work to be done.
I'd still want a Lunar Return to Stay before the decade is out. And other than surface hardware, there is very little left that would need to be produced. Providing that service can propel SpaceX's Mars development, just as providing service to the ISS has gotten them this far.
#5792 Re: Interplanetary transportation » SpaceX Falcon 9R launch » 2015-12-22 14:37:47
I have always banged the drum for Space X believing they would get there. Yet again they prove their prowess. This is the most revolutionary development in rocketry in 5 decades. The cost of delivery to orbit is going to tumble. Blue Origin have done well but their achievements are not to be compared with those of Space X.
This means the Mars Mission is now probably a decade closer than it would otherwise be.
We need to recognise Musk has already done a lot of the hard work required to get to Mars. He is probably a lot closer than people realise.
#5793 Re: Life support systems » Using holographic displays as windows » 2015-12-19 05:53:30
I've certainly suggested video screens showing live views of the hab's surroundings. Not sure how good holographic imagery is but if it can be done economically to a high standard, so much the better.
Seems to me that if you live in a pressurized habitat in a large settlement, you would want to minimize the amount of air leakage to the outside, that means few rooms will have windows to the outside, in some schemes the habitat is built underground, otherwise its under a dome. Most people won't get windows in their domiciles and workspaces, substituting for that would be a holographic display, the idea is to make them the size of windows and have the resolution high enough and the illumination bright enough so that when looking at it, it appears you are looking through a window, one can display any scene one prefers, maybe even place house plants next to it, have curtains and whatever else you want. Otherwise the displays can be used for work or entertainment, it can link up to various probes on the planet's surface, and from the comfort of the hab, you can see whatever the robot sees. What do you think, will this technology be available by the time we send astronauts to Mars? Do you think they will prefer to look at a holographic display or through an actual glass window with the Martian atmosphere on the other side?
#5794 Re: Life support systems » Crops » 2015-12-17 20:17:13
Nice information but if we are in need of such indoors plants then why are we not doing so on the ISS were we would learn lots more about the long term effects of such chemical hazards. One that the astronauts have been around is ammonia which is used in the cooling loops. Are there any of the others onboard?
Of course Mars would be different but we could be still using many of these still unless we plan them out of possibility.....
One that isn't mentioned much is free floating faeces - a problem on early ISS missions I believe! But I think hygiene control has improved over the decades...
#5795 Re: Human missions » Latest Thoughts of Chairman Musk! » 2015-12-17 20:14:01
louis wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … lanet.html
"But Musk said he was preparing to announce detailed plans of a mission to colonise Mars early next year, known as the Mars Colonisation Transport programme."
Sadly I don't think they mean he's going colonise Mars early in 2016! - just poor grammar.
However, just hearing in detail about his plans should make 2016 an interesting year.
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2 … ars-spacex
The vehicles don't exist for colonizing Mars in 2016, you think he would work with Trump?
I never thought they were - but we all know he is working on them as hard as he can, revenue allowing.
Trump is not for me a serious thinker. Nothing like Musk. If Trump thought he could simultaneously get Americans on Mars and get people to like his hair, he would go for it.
#5796 Human missions » Latest Thoughts of Chairman Musk! » 2015-12-17 04:55:10
- louis
- Replies: 15
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … lanet.html
"But Musk said he was preparing to announce detailed plans of a mission to colonise Mars early next year, known as the Mars Colonisation Transport programme."
Sadly I don't think they mean he's going colonise Mars early in 2016! - just poor grammar.
However, just hearing in detail about his plans should make 2016 an interesting year.
#5797 Unmanned probes » New Red Dragon Mission? » 2015-12-17 04:47:02
- louis
- Replies: 101
Are people aware of this Red Dragonn mission proposal (sounds at last like people at NASA are thinking outside the box):
"Nasa employees have revealed details of a 'budget' plan to send a SpaceX capsule to the red planet in 2020 to return samples to Earth.
The 'Red Dragon' project was developed by a team at Nasa looking at using SpaceX's spacecraft.
It would grab samples collected by the space agency's 2020 rover and return them to Earth.
The sample-return effort would keep costs and complexity down by using SpaceX's Falcon Heavy rocket and a modified version of the company's robotic Dragon cargo capsule.
The adapted Red Dragon would include a robotic arm, extra fuel tanks and a central tube that houses a Mars Ascent Vehicle (MAV) and an Earth Return Vehicle (ERV).
The Red Dragon team developed the concept independently, without any involvement or endorsement by SpaceX, but Elon Musk later backed the idea. "
I think this would be a great intro to a more concerted effort at a human mission.
#5798 Re: Life support systems » An energy solution for Mars... » 2015-12-17 04:40:21
I am reminded of the lunar parabolic reflector that has an optical cable at the focal point to bring the heat generated into a chamber.
http://fti.neep.wisc.edu/neep533/SPRING … ture41.pdfNASA Inflatable Solar Concentrator
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. … 026381.pdf
The inflatable solar concentrator technologically looks perfect for Mars. It's amazing how little the concentrators weigh - just 20 kgs for something about 5 metres in diameter I think it was.
Although they seem to be thinking in terms of regolith processing, to support life (on the Moon, rather than Mars), I am wondering whether on Mars we could use them to operate steam turbines, and thus generate electricity.
#5799 Re: Martian Politics and Economy » Martian Calender - I have created a martian calender... » 2015-12-15 15:47:03
Given sol is the recognised term for a day on Mars, shouldn't we incorporate it in the day names? Some examples:-
Solares
Solmundi
Deimosol
Phobosol
#5800 Re: Life support systems » An energy solution for Mars... » 2015-12-10 18:12:04
Seems like metal powders - iron being perfect -can serve as fuels.
http://m.phys.org/news/2015-12-metal-po … fuels.html
Not sure if we've focused on this before.