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#26 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri II - Continued from previous » 2005-01-31 14:54:57
When you say "but talkable at least", I believe you mean one of the following:-
a) "but tolerably reasonable"
b) "but capable of rational thought if pushed hard enough"
c) "but not so right-wing and red-necked as to be totally
beyond the reach of at least simple logic"
Hi Shaun,
I mean all of that of course.
Your figure of 200,000 extra Iraqis dead since the war started would be highly amusing except for the fact that people have indeed died to liberate Iraq and it's no laughing matter.
The article in the Lancet (see below my post with the reference) said 100 000, and they specified in the article that it is a surplus of what they would normally expect in abscence of war. I just read the abstract but it apears that their method of counting is indirect, sure ("METHODS: A cluster sample survey was undertaken throughout Iraq during September, 2004. 33 clusters of 30 households each were interviewed about household composition, births, and deaths since January, 2002. In those households reporting deaths, the date, cause, and circumstances of violent deaths were recorded. We assessed the relative risk of death associated with the 2003 invasion and occupation by comparing mortality in the 17.8 months after the invasion with the 14.6-month period preceding it").
Again, I don't see why and how they could inflate so much the statistics that the reviewers would not have seen it. They probably have an error bar, like 10-20% but no more.
Try to publish in the Lancet, better get some good data believe me.
My figure of 200 000 is completely hypothetic, since it was 100 000 some months ago (trusting the Lancet), I assume people won't ressucitate and that it will go increasing, so that, at the end of that war, it's maybe possible to double it.
I am not leftist by the way, Shaun, rather the opposite. That tell you you have that a long way to go to convince the real leftists. I am not anti-american or anti-anglosaxon, another arguments of the conservative rhetoric that they use so often. I am against some of the strongest points of the neo-conservative ideology. I don't think they are helpful to promote the occidental culture, they might even destroy it in the long term.
#27 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri II - Continued from previous » 2005-01-30 16:01:11
Dickbill:-
I am waiting to be blasted by Shaun...
How can you say such a thing, Dickbill, when you know me to be nothing but sweetness and light!
hehehe, sweetness ? Not always, but talkable at least.
10 000 or 100 000 ? I would say closer to 200 000 dead now. BTW, You gonna have a hard time to justify such high ******s in the future, even of the altar of western-like democracy or western-like freedom for the purpose of western-like well-thinking.
I mean by western-like, the more I'm getting old, the more I see everything is very very relative in terms of cultural appreciation and the way people see things in the prism of their own cultural/ethnic/personnal experience.
As french, I am not a big fan of Chirac, this is well know and obvious if you read my previous (old) posts, but still, I appreciate when Chirac said "France is a secular state but we are not trying to export the idea of secularism".
So, good point here. That means France cultural background over centuries of thousands of accumulated mistakes made during two milleniums of decadence, enlightment, revolutions, despostism, colonialism, renaissance (in disorder), has teached the french and I believe the germans too, (especially the germans), that the dream of universal truth is dangerous.
I am sure this thousand-old historical backgroung of the common collective inconscient of western occidental civilisation tell them that there is something of Faustian in Bush Dream of universal freedom.
#28 Re: Terraformation » Adding mass to Mars - An idea to stop loosing atmosphere » 2005-01-30 13:28:18
But adding mass to Mars atmosphere is a prerequisite for terraforming in order to achieve pressure and temperature-buffering, including, if possible, gas with green housing effects. We know the gas Mars needs most : NH3, because as you said Shaun, Mars is depleted in nitrogen. It matters litttle if nitrogen is imported under N2 or NH3 form, they can both be biologically interconverted later. But NH3 is far superior to N2 in terms of green housing effect and present in good amount in comets, so it's perfect. The other volatils like H2O CH4 and heavyer organics like aldehydes cyanides, even amino acids are also presents in comets, but matter little, IMO, in any terraformnation attempt since they can be synthetized biologically, in situ, on Mars or are already present.
So the first step is really thickening the Mars atmosphere.
This is well described in the Zubrin's "case for Mars" or the KSR trilogy.
I don't think it's reallistic to build huge mirrors in orbit to heat and volatilize the polar caps, or even, As I have suggested before (but that was more like one of my jokes) to install huge microwaves emitters on Mars moon to "cook" Mars.
And the chemical synthesis of fluorocarbons in-situ on Mars...yes, they have a formidable greenhousing power and everything is there on Mars but, how do you do that, in practice ? Granted, you can install a small reactor and bring to it, (by hand ? that's an astronaut full time job) the fluoride from minerals and synthetise a couple of tons of CF4...not significative to have any effects. More for the far future maybe...
I really think droppping comets in the Mars atmosphere is the way to go and quite reallistically possible even in today's technology.
#29 Re: Life on Mars » (Non-)Official Life on Mars Poll - Does it exist? » 2005-01-29 18:26:40
I just read the poll here. How could people be so sure that Mars is a germy planet ?
That it was, maybe...that it is now..hmmm. Hopefully Mars is more fun because you can always explore to find a niche where life could hatch or just microfossils.
I think the quest for life on Mars will be over when most of the hot volcanic spots will have been drilled down to 10 miles to the mantle, not anytime soon.
Because, remember the "sterilizing impact theory", that life appeared in several spots, at several time during early earth history, only to be swept out by meteoritic impacts during that period when earth was under heavy bombardments (We cannot escape bombardments these days).
So finding something similar to the nanofossils present in meteorit ALH81004 (a goal for future rovers) in the tinyest spot on Mars will be indication of at least one aborted attempt for life.
#30 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri II - Continued from previous » 2005-01-29 18:04:11
I am waiting to be blasted by Shaun...
The article with the 100 000 casualties poped up maybe 2 or 3 months ago,and became famous thereafter. Personnaly, I don't think that the amount could be inflated that much.
So maybe it's 80 or 90 000 instead of 100 000, but certainly not 10 000. Otherwise, I assume that the Lancet reviewers would have seen a gross mistake in the study.
Now, is it casualties from direct hit or indirectly by destruction of potable water plants (for example) or even more indirectly by rebel attacking against "their" own people, does it matter ?
#31 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri II - Continued from previous » 2005-01-29 09:26:33
But, as I said, the figure of 100,000 is just a left-wing daydream.
This is the article abstract below in The Lancet, where the "100 000" comes from, I believe.
I understand that you "wish" it would be different. Not that the statistics cannot be twisted, it's always possible, but there are many other studies that are consistent with high rate of civilian casualties. Note that i didn't read the original article, but my guess is that if these stats have been grossly manipulated (by the leftist of course), it will be known one day, and that will be a triumph for the pro-war people. But so far...
If you support the war, you need to look at the facts, Shaun.
Lancet. 2004 Nov 20;364(9448):1857-64.
Mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: cluster sample survey.
Roberts L, Lafta R, Garfield R, Khudhairi J, Burnham G.
Center for International Emergency Disaster and Refugee Studies, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, MD, USA. les@a-znet.com
BACKGROUND: In March, 2003, military forces, mainly from the USA and the UK, invaded Iraq. We did a survey to compare mortality during the period of 14.6 months before the invasion with the 17.8 months after it. METHODS: A cluster sample survey was undertaken throughout Iraq during September, 2004. 33 clusters of 30 households each were interviewed about household composition, births, and deaths since January, 2002. In those households reporting deaths, the date, cause, and circumstances of violent deaths were recorded. We assessed the relative risk of death associated with the 2003 invasion and occupation by comparing mortality in the 17.8 months after the invasion with the 14.6-month period preceding it. FINDINGS: The risk of death was estimated to be 2.5-fold (95% CI 1.6-4.2) higher after the invasion when compared with the preinvasion period. Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in one cluster in the city of Falluja. If we exclude the Falluja data, the risk of death is 1.5-fold (1.1-2.3) higher after the invasion. We estimate that 98000 more deaths than expected (8000-194000) happened after the invasion outside of Falluja and far more if the outlier Falluja cluster is included. The major causes of death before the invasion were myocardial infarction, cerebrovascular accidents, and other chronic disorders whereas after the invasion violence was the primary cause of death. Violent deaths were widespread, reported in 15 of 33 clusters, and were mainly attributed to coalition forces. Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children. The risk of death from violence in the period after the invasion was 58 times higher (95% CI 8.1-419) than in the period before the war. INTERPRETATION: Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100000 excess deaths, or more have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most violent deaths . We have shown that collection of public-health information is possible even during periods of extreme violence. Our results need further verification and should lead to changes to reduce non-combatant deaths from air strikes.
end of citation. From Pubmed I coulod easily retrieve all this :
: Garfield R. Related Articles, Links
Nightingale in Iraq: Understanding the scope of civilian casualties of the Iraq war is crucial to reducing further casualties, and ensuring the health of the population.
Am J Nurs. 2005 Feb;105(2):69-72. No abstract available.
PMID: 15674062 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
2: Schumm WR. Related Articles, Links
Did the defeat of Saddam Hussein reduce suicide bombing casualties and attacks in Israel? A statistical analysis.
Psychol Rep. 2004 Dec;95(3 Pt 1):831-4.
PMID: 15666913 [PubMed - in process]
3: Ramalingam T. Related Articles, Links
Extremity injuries remain a high surgical workload in a conflict zone: experiences of a British Field Hospital in Iraq, 2003.
J R Army Med Corps. 2004 Sep;150(3):187-90.
PMID: 15624410 [PubMed - in process]
4: Gawande A. Related Articles, Links
Casualties of war--military care for the wounded from Iraq and Afghanistan.
N Engl J Med. 2004 Dec 9;351(24):2471-5. No abstract available.
PMID: 15590948 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5: Horton R. Related Articles, Links
The war in Iraq: civilian casualties, political responsibilities.
Lancet. 2004 Nov 20;364(9448):1831. No abstract available.
PMID: 15555648 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
6: Lin DL, Kirk KL, Murphy KP, McHale KA, Doukas WC. Related Articles, Links
Orthopedic injuries during Operation Enduring Freedom.
Mil Med. 2004 Oct;169(10):807-9.
PMID: 15532345 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
7: Schreiber S, Yoeli N, Paz G, Barbash GI, Varssano D, Fertel N, Hassner A, Drory M, Halpern P. Related Articles, Links
Hospital preparedness for possible nonconventional casualties: an Israeli experience.
Gen Hosp Psychiatry. 2004 Sep-Oct;26(5):359-66.
PMID: 15474635 [PubMed - in process]
8: McAllister PD, Blair SP, Philpott S. Related Articles, Links
Op Telic--a field mental health team in the general support medical setting.
J R Army Med Corps. 2004 Jun;150(2):107-12.
PMID: 15376414 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
9: Rew DA, Clasper J, Kerr G. Related Articles, Links
Surgical workload from an integrated UK field hospital during the 2003 Gulf conflict.
J R Army Med Corps. 2004 Jun;150(2):99-106.
PMID: 15376413 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
10: Ritchie EC, Owens M. Related Articles, Links
Military issues.
Psychiatr Clin North Am. 2004 Sep;27(3):459-71. Review.
PMID: 15325487 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
11: Kotwal RS, O'Connor KC, Johnson TR, Mosely DS, Meyer DE, Holcomb JB. Related Articles, Links
A novel pain management strategy for combat casualty care.
Ann Emerg Med. 2004 Aug;44(2):121-7.
PMID: 15278083 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
12: Newmark J. Related Articles, Links
The birth of nerve agent warfare: lessons from Syed Abbas Foroutan.
Neurology. 2004 May 11;62(9):1590-6.
PMID: 15136687 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
13: Rice P. Related Articles, Links
Sulphur mustard injuries of the skin. Pathophysiology and management.
Toxicol Rev. 2003;22(2):111-8. Review.
PMID: 15071821 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
14: Dorr RF. Related Articles, Links
Lawmakers battle for reform on many fronts.
Aerosp Am. 2003 Nov;41(11):6-8.
PMID: 14651049 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
15: Vastag B. Related Articles, Links
Naval hospital ship heads for home after treating casualties of Gulf war.
JAMA. 2003 May 28;289(20):2635-6. No abstract available.
PMID: 12771097 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
16: Sadda RS. Related Articles, Links
Maxillofacial war injuries during the Iraq-Iran War: an analysis of 300 cases.
Int J Oral Maxillofac Surg. 2003 Apr;32(2):209-14.
PMID: 12729785 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
17: [No authors listed] Related Articles, Links
The casualties of war.
Lancet. 2003 Mar 29;361(9363):1065. No abstract available.
PMID: 12672303 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
18: Sawyer TW, Nelson P, Hill I, Conley JD, Blohm K, Davidson C, Sawyer TW. Related Articles, Links
Therapeutic effects of cooling swine skin exposed to sulfur mustard.
Mil Med. 2002 Nov;167(11):939-43.
PMID: 12448623 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
19: Omran AR, Roudi F. Related Articles, Links
The Middle East population puzzle.
Popul Bull. 1993 Jul;48(1):1-40.
PMID: 12318382 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
20: Romano JA Jr, King JM. Related Articles, Links
Psychological casualties resulting from chemical and biological weapons.
Mil Med. 2001 Dec;166(12 Suppl):21-2.
PMID: 11778422 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
#32 Re: Planetary transportation » Airplanes on Mars » 2004-12-05 17:51:19
warning : 1) to see the gallery, registration (free) is needed. 2) some folks/artists post nudity in other pictures, but it's not porn. My gallery is mostly about Mars though.
*Monsieur, ne devrait pas avoir mentionné la nudité. Maintenant chacun regardera les photographies nues et non votre galerie de Mars!
(Mais pas je; Je suis une bonne fille!).
--Cindy
It just shows that Mars is not the only interesting universal topic.
I watch the nude picture sometimes, well, bof, a nude is a nude, then what ?
But you guys, better watch my Mars pictures (too) !
Good (well, understandable at least) french by the way Cindy.
#33 Re: Planetary transportation » Airplanes on Mars » 2004-12-05 16:14:30
This is my vision of a reusable orbiter on Mars : While most of the orbiter itself ressembles the Space shuttle, the main difference is the wing parachute necessary to flight in the low atmospheric density.
The base is designed around a biodome, nothing unexpected here.
I don't think that we don't have any of the technology requested already, now.
A picture worths a thousands world : nothing look that much futuristic here. That's my point.
warning : 1) to see the gallery, registration (free) is needed. 2) some folks/artists post nudity in other pictures, but it's not porn. My gallery is mostly about Mars though.
#34 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-24 13:22:46
We are lavishly well supplied with metallicity if you compare with most starsystems around us. How come? A big factor seems to be age as translated in supernova metamorphosis of constituent elements. Not that many starsystem can have a higher or equal amount of heavy (read: complicated) elements than Sol and be considerably older (there are many exceptions of course. Alpha Centauri has both been around for longer and has slightly higher metallicity). Thus, it wouldn't surprise me at all if we are among the first generations of intelligent beings in the galaxy.
I read that too, that the sun has an unusually high metallicity. But such a coincidence might not be that rare.
Now you said that we might be the "first" generation of stars-sustaining life. However, because of the "faint' early sun, the early temperatures on earth might have greatly beneficiated from the presence of radioactive elements in the earth mantle, which decaying heating effect would compensate a little bit for the faint sun in this early time. This, plus a green house effect would have allowed liquid water to exist.
In the same conditions, if earth was forming now, and since most of the radioelements have decayed, the planet might not have enough internal energy to generate mantle convection movments and the surface temperature would be slightly lower than it was 4 billions ago. Maybe not high enough to have liquid water.
Anyway, this and other parameters, means that it is not obvious at all that there has been other generations of life-bearing stars. 4 billions years ago might have been the only good time, + or - a short window of opportunity, for life appearance.
Also, to come back to the complexity issue, we cannot deny that complexity arise and even increase in open systems when energy can flow in and out. The experience of Miller, starting with rather simple molecules H2O CH4 CO2 and NH3, ended up with amino acids, which are more complex molecules. In computer simulation of random networks of interconnected genes , complex patterns can arise spontaneously and stay stable, then giving rise to more complex patterns. So, complexity is not forbidden by the thermodynamic principle of decaying order, as long as more chaos/disorder is transfered out of the system. But despite that, to my knowledge, no living organisms has been created in vitro, even not autoreplicative molecules. This is strange : if you can generate amino acids and nucleosides (or analogues) in vitro, they should start to form more complex macromolecular patterns , some of them autoreplicative. I never heard about it, though. Nobody can confirm that ?
#35 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-23 23:11:00
given an infinite amount of time, all things are statistically possible.
Take all the pieces of a mechanical watch and toss them up into the air over and over again. How long before they assemble perfectly into a working watch? That's what happened. Statistically possible, made probable with a little help.
I beg to disagree.
Statistics evaluate the chances of a particular event over time without respect with the"time variable" itself. It's like the "time" is always equivalent to itself, future or past. But The science of thermodynamic clearly makes a distinction. The arrow of "time" points in the direction of increasing entropy, cf. S. Hawkings for example.
So back to your example. Each time you throw the pieces in the air the system reaches a lower energetic level, more statistically probable and more disorganized. Unless you inject a lot of "good" energy in the system, you will break your pieces in dust, then particles, then atoms etc.
If you inject "heat" into the system (heat is degenerated energy, of maximum entropy, it is just molecular chaos in the form of molecular agitation) the decease will be even faster. If you cool the system, the same happens, just slower. If you cool too much, time is frozen, nothing happen, the statistic fails here since the statistic is dependant on the ****** of events, but there is NO events anymore.
So you might as well throw the mechanic pieces in the air once and then wait that the pieces move by themself on the floor to form a watch.
Negentropy, as defined by Schrodinger by energy with information content, would be the energy needed. But It is nothing else than information. So you need to inject information in the system to have a chance to get a watch at the end. For example, 3 billions base pairs of DNA, plus a source of energy (GOOD food said Schrodinger, not anykind of bad food such as charcoal) and a good glass-magnifier with tiny forceps, screw driver and hammer plus a lot of practice, could do it. Otherwise, no chances.
I forget Natural Selection : The survival of the surviviest...Some unlikely unstable but more complex systems that would survive and give rise to other unlikely etc...
It doesn't contradict the 2nd thermodynamic principle to have a "themodynamic fluctuation" for a relatively short amount of time, and these complex systems would actually appear spontaneously from time to time.
I don't think it is the case however, we don't have an infinite amount of time first of all. But how could we be sure ? could we be transient "thermodynamic fluctuation" of the entropic content of the universe ?
This go very far. As you can see, now on Mars, or on Europa etc, since the conditions are, or were, almost life-friendly, people EXPECT to discover life. I don't know if a "thermodynamic or negentropic fluctuation" must necesserally be spatially and temporally coupled like this, or if it is just a random event, as the name "fluctuation" would suggest. Maybe OUR particular "fluctuation" sucked all the negentropy available in the universe (in the case it is not infinite) and left nothing for another fluctuation for example.
Anyway, books like "What is life" of Erwin Schrodinger and "La Science et la theorie de l'information" of Leon Brillouin (this book has been translated in english but I have the french version) are certainly very ... "informative" on this issue.
#36 Re: Not So Free Chat » Race and Culture - A Changing Europe - Opening a mighty can of worms... » 2004-11-20 12:21:05
On Thursday in the High court in Glasgow, two youths where found quilty of a serious race hate crime.
These two where members of a small gang who abducted a 15 year old seriously assaulted him, tortured him, drove him around scotland till they eventually took him to a quiet spot where he was stabbed and then dosed with petrol and set on fire while still alive. They did not know the boy they murdered in fact the only reason they went for him was he was of a different race.
The victim was white, the gang asian. This has caused a wave of horror to sweep Scotland. All communities cant understand why? One of the Gangs father was so horrified that his son had done this that he has completely ignored him. Only when a national paper found him at his work did he even find out the result of the case when asked for a comment.
It is never the majority of any race that are a problem, most people just want a good life. The minority who are in one word scum, these will allways cause problems just because they are evil, twisted sociopaths.
France had gang organized rapes, called "tournantes" : everybody waits for his "turn" to the victim.
After being raped, one of the victim was set in fire. Needless to say that the parents of the guys also expressed incomprehension.
Is it evil, sociopathy spreading in the teenagers ? the effects of violent movies ? the schock of cultures (rapist where often second generation immigrants poorly assimilated), everything ?
I think basically "evil", in its different forms.
It would be interesting to study really these cases for prevention purpose. I don't mean to set up an Ashcroft-like legislation in Europe, but there must be some easy social indicators that could be used tp prevent that.
The police should be able to consult the school records and perform a series of tests, like calling the parents at night and ask them if their son is at home or at least if they know where he is.
The so-called "educators" who often deal with hard kids don't have enough power too.
I left France 10 years ago, at that time it was very obviuos that massive immigration created problems in the society.
Rather to acknowelge the problem, the left government in power at that time, but also the precedant governments, decided that there was no problem, so that nothing should be done. They were in complete denial.
4 years ago, Chirac almost lost the elections based on the insecurity issue. All these caviar eating leftists and this policy of denial and of culpabilisation of the french population just shifted the votes more and more in the right-wing (the FN in France is just the equivalent of the republican party in the US). Then Chirac decided that something must be done to calm the angry people, in a moment of lucidity, he hired Nicholas Sarkozy at the interior ministry.
We can safely say that Sarkozy is a consequnence of the Le=Pen vote in France. Since that time I believe that Sarkozy prooved to be very efficient, he is not in constant "denial" of problems and so he takes efficient mesures.
That also show to you guys in the US that you need a counter-power. And you have any right now. When Chirac and the Left saw that surge of the right wing, they were afraid. That's the only reason why Chirac took mesures. They were afraid.
Without Le Pen, you would not have Sarkozy and you can be sure that stories of corruptions in the political milieu, social problems etc would have been denied once again and ignored.
No counterpower means more problem, the US is going to discover that law in the next years.
Something else. Why 30-40 years ago, when it was obviuos that a massive immigration in France would disrupst the social fabric of the national cohesion, people still set up these waves of immigration that change the society and even the culture of France ?
"They" did it because the only God that "they" worship was MONEY, not France it her Values : yop, bring me 1000 illiterate immigrants and make them working hard in my factories for two cents/hour. That will make mad the regular french worker that want to be paid honorably but I don't care !
Who is "they" ? anybody has ideas ?
#37 Re: Not So Free Chat » Celestial Cartography » 2004-11-19 20:28:03
I've been plagued with a bad sky last weeks
*Sorry to know that. I can sympathize; it's been an unusually cloudy autumn in my area.
and my telescope is in Celestron factory for realignments.
That's a problem you don't have with a newtonian reflector, you can always adjust the primary mirror, that you cannot do it with a schmidt cassegrain.*You just got that telescope last year, didn't you? What is the mirror diameter again?
I like Cassiopea too, it's easy to recognize in the sky.
*Yeah, and it's currently perfectly positioned in the night sky, around 9:00 p.m. When I lived in the Midwest, the Circumpolar Constellations were always completely visible and far above the northern horizon. Of course when I moved this far south, Ursa Major and Cassiopeia especially become mostly -- but not entirely -- "lost" when they are nearest the northern horizon. It still is a bit unsettling to me, when they drop out of view (from my vantage point in town)...even after living here for nearly 13 years. The up-side to that is Scorpius is higher above the southern horizon in the summer!
Hope you get your scope returned to you soon.
--Cindy
It's the celestron 9.25 on a CG5 GOTO mount. I have hesitated a long time, flankly it's the golden age for the astronomy amateur, their are so many models it's hard to choose.
The GOTO was new to me, It took me 3 hours to set it. Moral was that when the telescope is too much off axis of the polar axis, even the 3 stars alignment is not much help.
However, when properly aligned, it rocks !
I found Uranus last october in 15 seconds. I just type Uranus-ENTER (of course)- bzzzzzzz ...straight in the field of vue at 100X !!
A target that I could never get in my old 4.4' reflector.
In a 9.25' it looked like a small blueish whitish (more white than blue actually) disk, smaller than M57 (which I also found with the goto function in 20 seconds instead of half an hour). I was impresssed, in 2 or 3 hours of observation, I saw more Messier and NGC objects than ever before.
That was with a non optimal optical alignemnt and I noted a slight color fringe. Now the optical quality of the C9.25 at its best, I cannot say, since it was supposed to be not properly aligned, that' the reason I send it back to factory. But still, even like that, the color and contast was as good as my old 4.4 reflector.
I bought the CG5 GOTO mount to be able to make long pose photo or CCD, that' my hobby. But the sky in Dallas in November 
I have to go in the state or national parks.
Anyway, Ill post pictures one of these days .
Keep the good posts Cindy. BTW, Have you seen that there is a movie coming with Nicholas Cage build around " the masonic symbol in the 1 dollar bill" ...funny after our discussion that basicaly said it might not be a masonic symbol.
#38 Re: Not So Free Chat » Celestial Cartography » 2004-11-19 08:34:47
http://www.space.com/spacewatch/041015_ … Cassiopeia: Beautiful swarms of stars
*Lots of stellar treasures in this portion of the night sky, even if you only have binoculars. I've scanned the areas mentioned in the article with my telescope; very rewarding and a definite "must-do again."
As the article states, "In contrast to the region around Sagittarius (which marks the center of our galaxy), in Cassiopeia we are looking out toward the outer edges of our galaxy."
Unfortunately the article doesn't recount much mythology.
--Cindy
I've been plagued with a bad sky last weeks, and my telescope is in Celestron factory for realignments.
That's a problem you don't have with a newtonian reflector, you can always adjust the primary mirror, that you cannot do it with a schmidt cassegrain.
I like Cassiopea too, it's easy to recognize in the sky.
#39 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-18 21:12:57
*I have questions for Bill White, DonPanic and dickbill:
The Arab media biases don't bother you?
Or do you believe the Arab media has no biases?
Or do you think it's "okay"/doesn't matter if they have biases because Western journalism has its biases as well?
It's "okay" for the Arab media to be quiet [silence gives assent] about the genocide ocurring in Sudan (Arab Islamicists butchering helpless black African Sudanese)?
--Cindy
Arab media ? just the Bachelor and Extreme Makeover, that's it (I don't watch the cable since I left New York).
I am the regular Joe, a little bit liberal on some issues, but mostly conservative on most, you know that Cindy.
Shaun : I don't want to lecture you of course. But I tought It was necessary to precise my position. And the guy that shot the wounded man ? he shouldn't even be investigated since his komrades said he did nothing wrong. I am serious.
OK, so, what's next ?
#40 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-18 08:18:22
The Arab media may be outraged about the marine shooting the terrorist but they're outraged about everything Western - on principle. They'll get over it.
I am not arab and I was outraged when I saw these pictures.
Those who claim to be the JUST, Truthfull cannot use the same methods of the terrorists.
Look Shaun, it's very simple. I put the occidental christian-derived values in the highest standarts. It's about compassion equality justice fraternity strengh and fairness. This is why our civilisation has been so succesfull in History.
When terrorist act like terrorist and kill an innocent woman, they just prove what they are : terrorists.
If you accept to use of the same methods as the terrorists, even locally, we have already fail and our values won't survive that.
America must find an issue to this conflict without using the same philosophy as the killers. Is it clear ?
No, the GI that pushed the trigger is not responsible. He is a vivctim as well as the guy that he killed. Those who sent him are much more responsible.
But ultimately, not even Bush is responsible, after all, he does nothing that he knows wouldn't be fully supported by the largest of the US population. This is the truth.
#41 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-16 21:03:21
sort of jumping in late on the dollar and masonic symbol but here is a few pages. Some agree that the notion of the symbols being connect to any underlining reference is meaningless.
http://www.crystalinks.com/freemasons.h … asons.html
http://www.calodges.org/no406/ALLCEYE.H … LLCEYE.HTM
http://www.mastermason.com/WallerLodge/ … dollar.htm
The symbols on the dollar bill relate to the Masonic notions of the founders. The all-seeing eye comes from the Masonic symbology. The concept of the pyramid with its missing capstone links with the ancient mystery school teaching of ancient Egypt.
many thanks to SpaceNut, Cindy, Gennaro, Donpanic and Shaun for their input about the Freemason. From what I can understand, the issue is not settled. well, so maybe the pyramid on the dollar was, or was not, a freemason symbology.
I have to say (seriously) something about biology on Mars and several positions that I read in past posts that I don't agree, but frankly, after the last news from Iraq, you see what I mean, I am too disgusted to talk about anything Mars.
I am sure I am not alone to feel like that.
#42 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-16 13:28:49
Maybe it's true, america is a rich nation and will stay rich for a long time, however many problems accumulates at the horizon of the near future. My only point is that these problems, most likely, will require expensive fix and so I don't see how it will be more easy to set up a manned operation to Mars in 30/40 years, versus now.
Assuming that technology never goes backward, the cost of a Mars mission should stay the same or decrease. Due to improved productivity and increased population, the GDP of the US should be larger in 30-40 years than it is now, probably at least twice as large. If we can convince congress that NASA's budget should stay at the same proportion of the GDP (which, unfortunately, has not been the case so far), then NASA will have more than enough money for a manned Mars program.
Of coarse, many other countries will experience even greater growth. China's economy could be 10 times larger in 40 years than it is now. If there is any enthusiasm left for manned spaceflight in 30-40 years, then we can expect someone will be able to gather enough money to go to Mars.
They don't even mention a Freemason symbolism as an explanation. Very suspicious IMO, when it is the first thing you think about.
You did not read all of it:
That of the reverse is more murky. Many consider the eye atop the pyramid to have its origins in Masonic iconography. However, the icon is not a Masonic symbol, nor designed by a mason. Among the Great Seal committee, only Benjamin Franklin was a Mason, but his ideas were not adopted by the committee.
The all-seeing eye was a well-known classical symbol of the Renaissance. The all-seeing eye of God is mentioned several times in the Christian Bible. The eye in a triangle design originally was suggested by Pierre Du Simitière, and later heraldist William Barton improved upon the design. In Du Simitière's original sketch, two figures stand next to a shield with the all-seeing pyramid above them. The August 20, 1776 report of the first Great Seal Committee describes the seal as "Crest The Eye of Providence in a radiant Triangle whose Glory extends over the Shield and beyond the Figures."
I agree with you Euler "if everything goes right" but what if "everything goes wrong" ?
You mention 1) the GDP of the US or China 10 times larger in 40 years or at least twice larger, 2) the same enthousiasm for space exploration. 3) And the technology going forward.
That's 3 factors that are likely to be true.
And now for other factors, also very likely to be true in the future, that could impact the 3 formers :
4) aging population, in the EU, US and China, declining population in Russia. Health problems for the US, mostly related to an overweight problem. These will impact negatively the part of GDP left for space exploration. I also believe "aging" will impact the enthousiasm for space exploration . 5) Ecological problems due to pollution and global warming. They will also have a negative impact. 6) a shift of funding for military research and equipment in most countries.
And now for the unknown, what you don't expect because it's hardly predictible. Could be good or bad.
Let me Imagine a catastrophe scenario : In addition to the ongoing global warming, the sun, in 40 years, suddenly produces an output 1% superior to the present solar output, raising temperatures much higher than the worst scenario could predict. This, combined with lack of water ressources create huge emigration flux that in turn trigger wars that finally degenerate in a global Nuclear conflict.
That's just the Murphy's law plus the Domino's theory.
All you need for these catastrophe scenario is a little imput of bad luck. I used the sun but you can find something else at your will : world wide pandemia, genetic toxicity (deleterious mutations) raising in the population, oceans turning anoxic. Or political : raising of new dictatorship in "powerful" nations, etc.
I believe in Murphy's law : "if it can go wrong, it will go wrong"
#43 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-15 23:54:31
I just checked the link provided by Euler to explain the dollar bill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal … ted_States
They don't even mention a Freemason symbolism as an explanation. Very suspicious IMO, when it is the first thing you think about.
Is Wikipedia an "embedded" encyclopedia ?
#44 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-15 23:42:52
The decrease in the dollar's value is due to the large current account deficit that the US has. If the dollar falls enough, US exports will become more competitive and imports will become less competitive, so the current account deficit will shrink and could eventually turn into a surplus. However, since the current account deficit is still at record levels, the dollar probably still has a long way to fall.
Maybe it's true, america is a rich nation and will stay rich for a long time, however many problems accumulates at the horizon of the near future. My only point is that these problems, most likely, will require expensive fix and so I don't see how it will be more easy to set up a manned operation to Mars in 30/40 years, versus now.
In addition, the picture of Zubrin of 15 billions for a first mission is probably not reallistic, not because it is impossible but because it is too cheap. This is more or less what Jeff Bell said in this article in Spacedaily.com : it doesn't matter what is the real cost of a program, finally. What does matter is that the program needs to be able to fuel big companies or agencies (labs grants etc) in research and development. I doubt that Boing is going to waste its time for a tiny 15 billions dollars. Which is understandable. To be secured, the program has to be so big that it cannot be canceled and that everybody is sure to get a piece of the cake. So the cake has to be big, maybe 400 to 1000 billions would taste better ? but how can you dare to advance such a big bill when you have to pay for the ISS, the space shuttle, the war in Iraq, and I probably forgot some, but only these would pay for a comfortable budget to send a man to the Red Planet.
1000 billions dollars is not so much by the way, if spread for 10-12 years. But this is a dream that won't happen.
About the pyramid and eye symbol on the dollar bill, I'm not convinced that's not a freemason symbol, do you have a link or somthing ?
Shaun : It's well possible that you are right about Mary Magdalene, or whatever her name. I mean, it doesn't change anything in Christ message if he had some fun before he died, right ?. He was 32 I think, how possible is that that he never touched a woman ? .... well that's it, the ultrafundamentalists are signing themself three times, jump from their seat and want to apply the sharia by lapidation to Dickbill, or even better, the "Question". Get down ! Dickbill is a good christian, he flagellates often and never speaks under the Question anyway !
Anyway yes, we may never know since Jesus never mentioned it.
Allright, but after that, the story of the sangreal because Magdalene ended up in southern France and being chased by templars killers... and the merovingiens were still in the Northern France/Netherlands, what are they doing in Marseille ? a razia to pillage the stock of pastis ?
Difficult to believe, but who knows. That's not gonna bring us to Mars, or is it ?
#45 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-14 18:55:58
dickbill: FreMasonery might have been just a covert for something else. And I still don't understand why the US 1 dollar bill has this obvious freemason symbol, the eye and the pyramid, in addition with this comment "Novus Ordo Seclorum", New Secular order. Followed by "In God we Trust". Quite antithetical statements on the most powerful symbol of a nation, its money.
What does all that mean ?*There has been a ton of speculation about this, and from rather biased angles. I'm not familiar with Freemasonry myself (no male family members have been Freemasons and of course women aren't allowed to join) and don't remember the fundamentalist Christian viewpoint (my parents' religious sentiments. The Obelisk, the (much later of course) Pentagon, etc. Certain Christians I've been familiar with definitely believe these symbols are embued with real occult powers (which have enabled this nation to become wealthy, powerful, etc.)...but on the other hand they also fervently believe the wealth and power is a result of God's blessing the U.S.A. :-\ So yes, it seems like a contradication to me as well (they view any sort of occultism as enabled by Satan and therefore evil).
I presume some folks here are familiar with the Illuminati? That really gets fundamentalist Christians wound up too; in fact, IIRC they believe the Freemasons are funded and empowered by that tiny, ultra-elite brotherhood of the Illuminati.
dickbill: I hope the Mars Organization is not condamned to become such a secretive order.
*Aw c'mon dickbill, where is your sense of adventure? You'd get to dress up in ceremonial robes, swear to secret oaths, learn funky secret hand gestures (silent communication between brothers), Rule The World...what's wrong with you?? :;): We're not even on Mars yet and already you're being a party-pooper.
--Cindy
P.S.: I just now recalled speculation about THE targets of the 9/11 attack, which some folks tried to put a mystical bent on, i.e. fundie Islam attacking Freemasonry. The "reasoning" behind this theory was something to do with the WTC towers being ram-rod straight and of equal height, and the "mystical" 5-sided star of the Pentagon. But I can't recall details, sorry. Probably is available for reading somewhere on the 'net.
About the Pentagon, it may be just a coincidence. But for the money, it takes a certain amount of gut and power to emblazon your society's name on the money.
The Illuminati...well, after I read two of Dan Brown's book (The illluminati are in "Angels and Demons") I rushed on Internet to get some more informations. This guy is pretty good, all his stories are build upon real historical facts.
Yes these organisations existed, but these also have been hunted in the old catholic latin countries.
But nobody knows really what it is all about.
Me a party- pooper ? no Cindy, but I worry because of this :
I think that the whole world is in a dangerous trend. Ecological systems are not going better, they may collapse more quickly than we think. Wars abound everywhere. I learn that now, the US have to invest more in cemeteries, the healthcare system is no great, the US have a huge debt, some say they are close to bankruptcy. So in short Cindy, i don't believe that the US is going to be able to set up FINANCIALLY a manned mission to Mars in the next decades more easily in the future than now. Too much problems at the horizon. Americans won't be richer in 40 years than they are now, you know that. It's now now, or in 80/100 years, maybe later.
That means that the Mars Society will have to survive all this time relying on memory of the imagination of a couple of visionaries, likeZubrin or KSR. You cannot maintain a high level of enthousiasm on such a long period if you take the main-stream way of an open organisation. I think you have to burry the society in secretive to resist the erosion of time, that's what all these secrets societies did. So, it is not impossible, IMO, to have a Mars Society Great Master in 60 years, when the earth is flooded and the oceans are poisonned , and the US space program a dead fossil like the dinosaurs.
#46 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-14 17:07:50
By end of 18th Century...
Even King of France Louis XVI was a freemason !*Not just the end of the 18th Century; Louis XV was also a Freemason (albeit probably half-heartedly, if even that...based on what I've read about him, he'd rather spend his time doting on his children and chasing mistresses), as was http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/deon.htm]this fellow, top spy in the Cabinet Noir (and very close to Louis XV because of that, of course).
So was Frederick the Great...most if not all leaders and men of prominence (even Wolfgang Mozart) at the time were Freemasons.
Benjamin Franklin was present for the initiation of Voltaire into Freemasonry; he practically carried Voltaire during the ceremony because Voltaire was so elderly and sickly at the time.
Sorry...mention the 18th Century and I've got to chime in.
--Cindy
FreMasonery might have been just a covert for something else. And I still don't understand why the US 1 dollar bill has this obvious freemason symbol, the eye and the pyramid, in addition with this comment "Novus Ordo Seclorum", New Secular order. Followed by "In God we Trust". Quite antithetical statements on the most powerful symbol of a nation, its money.
What does all that mean ?
Is it possible that the people of the most fundamentalist religious christian nation, defined recently by the term "value voters", are actually indirectly manipulayed by obscure atheist secret organizations with secret goals ?
I hope the Mars Organization is not condamned to become such a secretive order.
#47 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-13 22:03:55
Sorry it's late for me,
I'll speak of freemasons later on...
Thanks.
Do you have an idea why a masson symbol is on the US dollar bill ?
#48 Re: Not So Free Chat » Political Potpourri - ...anything political goes. » 2004-11-13 17:28:57
Knowing that after attack at Russia, Hitler coudn't protect spanish coasts against British Navy, and that democracys would win at the end, he softened his regime by marginalizing Phalanxs, turned at alliance with Opus Dei, and negociated with GB and USA.
He
Don Panic,
have you some interesting views to share about the freemasons and other occult powerful movments ?
You mention Opus Dei and as you know, many funder fathers of the US were free masons.
Is there a real freemason complot ?
Why people associate the Judeo-masonic complot together ?
why and what do they have to hide ?
what is that story about the templars ? I tought that Philip the bel got rid of of them, but then, I learn that they escaped to england, probably to the US later.
Are George Bush and the US manipulated by some occult templars or freemasons ?
hmmm, then that would explain a lot ....
#49 Re: Not So Free Chat » Future news; - that you can use now. . . » 2004-11-10 08:26:24
Mormons can only have one wife, one male to one female. Mormons stop multiple wifes when ferderal government forced them too. Now only separte sects pratice multiply marriges,
allright allright, forgive my ignorance. But what about the 72 "houry" (female virgins in heaven). Are they not supposed to meet with them when they go to paradise ?
About the Darwinesque Evolution theory, frankly it' not the "master" science anyway. It can easily be learn at any moment later, in its principles anyway. What matter is math, physic, chemistry. But when you touch chemistry, then you touch biochemistry, molecular biology, biology, physiology .... At this point the seeds of the evolutionary theory are embedded. So they should as well skip both evolutionary theories : biblical and darwinesque. The curious educated man, mormon or not, can still figure out by himself which is closer to reality later.
#50 Re: Not So Free Chat » Future news; - that you can use now. . . » 2004-11-09 21:07:31
Whats the new USA?
Most freshmen have to take some science in college, bio 101 would be a good choice because it opens their mind to the scientific methods. I din't waste time in basic bio I went streight to advance. In bio 181 I got a A, 182 to B because I dont like animals and we had to indentify the scientfic names of the animals from bacteria, invertabrates, up to mammals.
I am a plant person, so when I transfered to ASU. I found out they had PLB 200 counts the same as college bio but its plants only. Ohh well, but at least I know the most about animals in my PLB "plant sciences" classes.
If you realy want to learn try extent-extant plant phlogency crouse, I never thought the world was so complex.
Their are a alot of mormons at my school, dont brong up evolution if you dont want to be bettin up good! But having ten wives tires them so I am safe. :laugh:
10 wives for one guy...hmmmm. It seems to me many unlucky Mormons must not be so happy with that.
Can gay Mormons mary each other ?
I bet the mormonic prophet was one of the lucky one....
Mormons, listen to Dickbill : thy shall read Doonesbury in the Dallas Morning news to go to Heaven and have tyr 72 "Houry" that are waiting for you, otherwise thy shall go to Evil-Land read William Safire articles...and no "Houry" there.