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Thomas:
The "brief statement" that you are referring to is not a statement by me; those words are the title of an article published by "Science Daily". That article is posted on the Internet at the following address; https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 231749.htm That article contains the following quote:
"The worldwide trend away from corporal punishment is most clearly reflected in the 24 nations that legally banned corporal punishment by 2009. Both the European Union and the United Nations have called on all member nations to prohibit corporal punishment by parents. Some of the 24 nations that prohibit corporal punishment by parents have made vigorous efforts to inform the public and assist parents in managing their children. In others little has been done to implement the prohibition," Straus says.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 231749.htm
Is it appropriate to include in the Constitution of Mars a prohibition against "corporal punishment"?
Journal Reference: Straus, Murray A. and Mallie J. Paschall. Corporal Punishment by Mothers and Development of Children's Cognitive Ability: A Longitudinal Study of Two Nationally Representative Age Cohorts. Journal of Aggression Maltreatment & Trauma, 2009; 18 (5): 459 DOI: 10.1080/10926770903035168
At some point phycological babble of sparing the punish was in the best interest as it harmed the child that could not behave.
"Children Who Are Spanked Have Lower IQs, New Research Finds"
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 231749.htm
kbd512, You wrote,
If this belief system, no matter what it purports to be or do, nor how "perfect" I believe it to be, was contorted by unscrupulous people for evil purposes, then what's the worst that they could do to humanity by perverting it into something it was never intended to be?
If "this belief system" (i.e., behaviorism) was intentionally "contorted" then what's the worst that they could do to humanity?
Here is my answer: If a behaviorologist discovered that false behavioral data was included in an article published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, that behaviorologist could ask the editor of the journal to retract the article. If the person who created the false data is employed by a research institute or by a university then the person's employment might be terminated.
Fortunately, science is self-correcting.
Scott
kbd512, In post #66 I wrote:
"At Los Horcones, children are taught how to use an "operant conditioning chamber" to shape the behavior of rats. The point of teaching children about "operant conditioning" is to show children that they can learn how to control their own behavior".
Los Horcones has a state-accredited school. School inspectors (employees of the State of Sonora) periodically give standardized academic tests to the students of the Los Horcones school. Those students, on average, make test scores which show that they are 2 years ahead of their peers at other schools. This excellent result is due, in part, to Los Horcones students applying their behavior-shaping skills to the goal of becoming highly proficient scholars. The teachers at the Los Horcones school emphasize the importance of acquiring good study habits and they do everything they can to help their students to become excellent "behavioral engineers", who earn excellent grades.
Applied behavior analysis (ABA), also called behavioral engineering, is a scientific discipline that applies empirical approaches based upon the principles of respondent and operant conditioning to change behavior of social significance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_behavior_analysis
Applied behavior analysis works very well. The Constitution of Mars should require the teaching of behavior analysis and applied behavior analysis at accredited primary and secondary schools.
Scott
kbd512:
Behaviorism (also known as behavior analysis) "is a systematic approach to understanding the behavior of humans and other animals".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviorism
At Los Horcones, children are taught how to use an "operant conditioning chamber" to shape the behavior of rats.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_c … ng_chamber
The point of teaching children about "operant conditioning" is to show children that they can learn how to control their own behavior.
The most prevalent alternative to this kind of teaching is to tell children that they are inhabited by a metaphysical mind or a supernatural soul that has "free will" and that the government is therefore justified in using force against people who violate laws.
Free will is a political ideology. It is educational malpractice to tell children that free will is a scientific theory.
The children of Mars should not be lied to and brainwashed with free will.
Just tell them the truth.
Scott, One last note on B.F. Skinner's "black box"...
These accusations have been refuted by Deborah Skinner Buzan.
See https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 … ucation.uk
Mars_B4_Moon:
You asked, "...how can you prove some form of Communism can be born from a Constitution of Mar; Scientocracy?"
Hunting and gathering is not likely to work on Mars. Swidden (slash and burn agriculture) is also not likely to be a viable subsistence strategy on Mars.
People need air, at or above a particular pressure, in order to live. So Martians will probably spend the majority of their lives inside of pressurized buildings. We have to anticipate that, on a comparative basis, there will be more "socialism" on Mars. There will be government divisions that tightly regulate the operation of facilities that produce air. Some of those facilities might be privately owned and publicly regulated utilities, while other air suppliers might be government agencies or municipal corporations. Either way, the Government of Mars is likely to be larger than the governments of terrestrial societies. I predict that there will be more "socialism" on Mars.
I am not suggesting that the Government of Mars build Hutterite colonies on Mars. However, the constitution of Mars might, for example, authorize the enactment of laws that will encourage Hutterites to form communities on Mars. The laws of Mars could also accommodate the construction of single-family residences and apartment buildings.
Comunidad de los Horcones is a secular community and it is, legally, a producer cooperative corporation. Los Horcones operates several businesses. For example, they use their Caterpillar D-9 dozer to create roads and ponds for the farmers and ranchers of nearby lands. They also provide behavioral therapy, on a contract basis, to children whose parents live in Hermosillo and other nearby cities. They keep bees and sell jars of honey. They keep cattle and sell yogurt. They grow fruits and vegetables, which they eat and sometimes sell. They host international behavioral science conferences in facilities that they have built for that purpose. A daughter colony of Los Horcones might be built on Mars if Martian laws permit the establishment and operation of secular producer cooperative corporations.
The laws of Mars might also authorize the construction of cohousing communities and ecovillages. https://www.cohousing.org https://ecovillageithaca.org
Scott
Let's examine the foundation of "behaviorism": Children subjected to this "behavioral modification" scheme take an animal out of its natural environment, imprison it in a box, then reward or punish the poor creature
No, the children of Los Horcones are not allowed to punish the creatures (most often rats).
There is a very broad consensus in the academic community that it is now unethical to use punishment in behavioral experiments. Each university usually has an "animal care committee" that monitors how animals are used in university research programs. The committees will not approve the use of punishment in behavioral experiments.
Punishment experiments were carried out in the 1940s. And then the punishment experiments were stopped. B.F. Skinner and other university researchers publicly stated that doing additional punishment experiments would be scientifically unproductive and unethical. So behavioral scientists have been relying on punishment data that was collected more than 50 years ago.
Scott
Scott Beach, Is it possible that other scientists would pervert science for money or other privileges...?
Yes, look at what Big Pharma did recently. The clinical trials of COVID injections killed more than 1,200 people and that result was withheld from the public. Then the U.S.G. told us over and over that the injections are "safe and effective". So I do not trust the government to tell me that two plus two is four or anything else.
Scott
For Scott re #22
Is there any risk that the robots you are imagining could misunderstand your instructions?
(th)
YES!
I have worked as an electrician. I can report that the blueprints for some very large commercial jobs were so awful that we derisively referred to those blueprints as "cartoons". From one day to the next, we had to negotiate with plumbers and carpenters and Heating/Ventilation/and Air Conditioning (HVAC) installers so that we could install electrical systems approximately where they were supposed to go. We rewrote the blueprints as we went along. It was often obvious to us that the people who drafted the blueprints were total morons. That is why a human job supervisor would probably have to be present while a job site was under construction by human workers and/or robots.
I took a class in computer programming during my undergraduate studies. I wrote programs in BASIC and enjoyed doing so. It was very gratifying to see the printer produce reports that were exactly what my program prescribed.
Scott
Behaviourism was discredited a long time ago, and good riddance to it.
No, behaviorism has not been discredited. Behavior-shaping techniques based on behaviorism are working very well. The members of Comunidad Los Horcones use behavior-shaping techniques to help children who have Down's syndrome, autism, and other developmentally disabilities. Please see the living proof at...
A DAY AT COMUNIDAD LOS HORCONES BEHAVIORAL CENTER, produced by Comunidad Los Horcones (a Walden Two community);
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnAz_bF0D2I
Founded in 1973, Comunidad Los Horcones is in its 49th year of operation.
Brief Introduction Los Horcones 2008;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVRU1VEGE1M
For Scott Beach re new topic ...
What might sentient robots do, if confronted with a human wanting to give them "instructions" ???
The robots would listen carefully and then they would carry out their instructions. If they did not do so they would be returned to the manufacturer and a full refund of the purchase price would be demanded.
Manufacturing defective robots would lead to bankruptcy.
Scott
For Scott re topic ...
You have received two long, thoughtful and information packed posts (by Mars_B4_Moon and kbd512).
(th)
I changed the title of this topic from "Sentient" to "Humanoid", as you suggested. "Sentient" was just too confusing. People were interpreting "sentient" as meaning that a robot has desires and emotions (i.e., feelings). In contrast, I was thinking that robots would have many touch sensors in their "skin" and could interact with humans in a very gentle manner.
By the way, I have read Molecules of Emotion, by Candace Pert. She provides excellent explanations about the biophysics of human emotions. The Japanese are building household robots that display "emotional" responses on their lifelike faces, but such displays are not accompanied by biophysical events inside of the robots.
Scott
...but you built me a shack in the dirt.
The moral of this lesson is that you should have purchased your construction robots from Norway, not Zimbabwe.
Scott
Thomas:
Many years ago, I read Gerard K. O'Neill's 2081: A Hopeful View of the Human Future. O'Neill described humanoid "household robots" that helped adults and children to accomplish the ordinary tasks that people do everyday. That is what I think about when I read about artificially intelligent robots, with pressure sensors in their soft, artificial skin (providing the robots with "feelings"). A robot like this might be trusted to pick up and hold a human infant, and to offer the infant a bottle full of warm milk.
I am not worrying that robots are going to become ruthless war machines, intent on destroying the human species. In my vision of 2081, robots will be able to download thousands of pages of space settlement blueprints, and then rocket to the designated planet, and then build a complete settlement, drapes and air included.
I asked people to be "extravagant" because I want to know what infrastructure people now regard as the most desirable.
Scott
For Scott re #8
Thanks for your reply....
This gent is NOT "just" an engineer .... he is reported to be a religious practitioner of some kind....
(th)
If he is a "religious practitioner" then he probably has a political agenda. If he wants to propose constitutional amendments that vest political rights in self-directed, sentient, artificially intelligent robots then I will be very likely to oppose such amendments.
Scott
for Scott re #3
Your scenario was opened with the title "Sentient" .... you can change the title, of you want to.
(th)
Thomas:
I used "Sentient" in the title of this topic because the Google engineer, Blake Lemoine, used the word "sentient" to describe the robot that he was studying.
Sentient is defined as the ability "to perceive or feel things". If a robot has been programmed to avoid doing things that could result in serious damage to or destruction of the robot then the robot would be acting in ways that further its survival. Animals usually behave in ways that promote their survival so it is easy for me to believe that evolutionary forces have selected in favor of these behaviors.
Is Lemoine's robot aware that it could cease to exist? Some humans believe that they will eventually cease to exist while other humans believe in life after death. So I do not regard a human's ability to comprehend the possibility that it could cease to exist as a necessary component of sentience.
Scott
You set up the scenario that the robots/AI are sentient, but you omitted the possibility they might be self-directing.
(th)
Thomas:
If the robots have expert knowledge of architecture and engineering, and if they were supplied with various building materials and tools, they might be able to use those materials and tools to create structures that serve various purposes. They might have been instructed to prioritize the construction of "critical infrastructure", such as air making and filtering and storing facilities. Building an indoor swimming pool would probably have a much lower priority.
If the robots can prioritize tasks then I would agree that they are "self-directing".
Scott
Bonanza
"Bonanza is an American Western television series that ran on NBC from September 12, 1959, to January 16, 1973."
"Google engineer warns new AI robot has feelings"
"Blake Lemoine tells 'Tucker Carlson Tonight' he was put on administrative leave after cautioning the firm artificial intelligence is sentient". Jun 22, 2022: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwcVm0YRvuo
Could we give Martian settlement blueprints to 1,000 sentient robots and then instruct the robots to work together to build a complete settlement?
What amenities and luxuries would be specified on the blueprints? Please feel free to be extravagant.
"The Congress shall have Power... To declare War..."
United States Constitution
We, the people of Earth, should require each Martian settlement to adopt a Constitution that prohibits the settlement and its residents from participating in warfare.
State societies are war machines. Let's not put war machines on Mars.
B4:
You might take note of the "Rule of 150" and the fact that Hutterites are the fastest growing ethnic group on this planet. Each Hutterite husband and wife have, on average, 10 children, and almost all of their children reach adulthood and marry and have children.
Rule of 150: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
The Hutterites have been around for almost 500 years.
Each Hutterite colony is composed of 60 to 160 people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutterites
Send Hutterites to Mars. They will fill the red planet with life in record-breaking time.
ZOOM! ZOOM!
"Oslo shooting: Norway attack being treated as Islamist terrorism, police say"
June 23, 2022 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61933817
California and Florida have constitutions that refer to "Almighty God".
CONSTITUTION OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA PREAMBLE
We, the people of the State of Florida, being grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, in order to secure its benefits, perfect our government, insure domestic tranquility, maintain public order, and guarantee equal civil and political rights to all, do ordain and establish this constitution.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?submenu=3
CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION PREAMBLE: We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure and perpetuate its blessings, do establish this Constitution. https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face … cCode=CONS
Should the constitution of Mars, or the constitutions of numerous Martian states, promote belief in the existence of an Almighty God?
I would not want to live in a Martian state that asserts the existence of an "Almighty God" and that issues residency permits to Islamists who have been trained to commit terror attacks on people who believe in the "wrong" god.
The article cited below includes images of what a Martian settlement might look like. A College of Sociocultural Systems Engineering at the University of Central Florida might design a prototype settlement that looks similar to the settlement in the images presented below.
AN ECONOMIC MODEL FOR A MARTIAN COLONY OF A THOUSAND PEOPLE
Richard Heidmann, vice-president Association Planète Mars [the French Chapter of the Mars Society]
Pierre Brisson, financial advisor and English translation
September 26, 2016
http://planete-mars.com/an-economic-mod … nd-people/
This news could be very important to the manufacture of oxygen and hydrocarbon fuels on Mars.
Researchers invent novel catalyst to convert carbon dioxide
