New Mars Forums

Rob(#25),
I'd be glad to help you out with some drawings, 2D and 3D. I'm not able to do any animation (walk throughs), but I can do some 3D renders. In this post I listed the software I have and what I can (and can't) do.

To do a drawing I need to know exactly what it is that you need, and the dimensions of items in that particular drawing. I only need dimensions for each drawing, not dimensions for things that are not in the drawing. You'll need to specify the current dimensions you are using for each drawing. (Don't expect me to read through 1,400+ posts to figure that out). It's okay if dimensions are different than what has already been posted.

It also helps to know the type of drawing. An example of a "plan" drawing is a "floorpan" for a house. I think we've all seen floorpan drawing for houses. An "elevation" drawing of a house is a 2D drawing of a house, usually a view from the front yard looking straight in at the front of a house. A view looking at the front door, porch, windows, etc, in 2D. A "perspective" drawing is a 3D perspective, usually from overhead looking downward at an angle. I can make 3D images using "home design" software.

The home design software that I use has it's limitations. I'm not able to do curved walls or curved ceilings/floors. The "straight" walls have to be either north/south or east/west. I'm unable to do them at an angle.

You can message me at my Email if you'd like. That way I can send you my personnel Email (which I don't want to post on the Internet). It might be faster if we used our Email to communicate rather than posting on this forum. We can post image results on this forum later.

I may not be able to work on stuff right away. I work a lot of hours and I need to have a furnace installed in about a week. They are going to have to cut holes in the ceiling and maybe roof and/or siding. So I'm busy getting ready for that, and will have some drywall/painting to do after they are done. I can work you in, not a problem, it just may take awhile to get to it.

I see you are in transit. Have a safe trip back! Like Dorthy said "There's no place like home."

Below is a link to a YouTube of the 2023 convention.
The video was recorded yesterday (Thursday 10/05/2023).
Here is the schedule for the first part of the video.

26th Annual International Mars Society Convention
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub-Tgb3FIUY

Question and Answers:

Post indicates burning fuel with oxygen but leaves with requiring more collection from the vacuum pump for co2 to make oxygen for it to create heat. That exhaust means we need a capture system rather than sending it not the cell or for wasting it.

I'm trying my best to understand this question/statement. I think the question is stating that the Martian atmosphere, which is mostly CO2, is brought into a Cell. The CO2 is then converted into oxygen by plants. The oxygen is then used to react with methane. That much is true.

However, the rest of the question seems to imply that the resulting CO2 is vented back out into the Martian atmosphere, which would waste heat and require more air from the Martian atmosphere to be brought into the Cell to maintain air pressure.

That's not how the system works. Regardless of how methane is reacted with oxygen (burning or CE5), in both cases the reactions consume oxygen from the air in a Cell and release CO2 and water back into the Cell.

Air from the Martian atmosphere is brought into a Cell by pumping it directly into burning methane (I call the incoming air "Cheat." See Post #10). From there most of the CO2 is converted into oxygen by plants, and some CO2 is removed by the Air Pressure Control System (Post #12) whenever the air pressure gets too high.

Once the CO2 is converted to oxygen by plants, some of the oxygen is used when methane reacts with oxygen (May or may not be burned). Some oxygen is removed from the Cell where it is available for use elsewhere in the Martian base (Post #7).

When oxygen reacts with methane it produces CO2 and water. Both the CO2 and water are kept in the Cell. The CO2 then cycles back again, where it can be converted into oxygen, or removed by the Air Pressure Control System, which prevents the air pressure from going above a preset value.

The diagram below shows a couple of processes going on in a Cell. By no means does this diagram show all processes of a Cell. It only shows two processes out of many. Some of the CO2 in a Cell is being consumed by plants and is converted into oxygen, which is released into the air of a Cell.

Methane reacts with oxygen. Sometimes it is burned and sometimes it is ran through a CE5. In both cases the reaction releases CO2 and water. The water is picked up by the dehumidifier and could be used to water plants.

CO2 resulting from reacting methane with oxygen is released back into the air of a Cell. Some of this CO2 is used by plants and is converted to oxygen, and the cycle repeats, as indicated below.

Most of the CO2 that is consumed by plants is coming from the reaction of methane and oxygen, and is not coming from the Martian atmosphere. (Although some CO2 is coming into the Cell through Cheat). Most of the oxygen being reacted with methane is oxygen produced by plants.

A Cell is not a closed loop system, because mass (and energy) are entering and exiting the loop (crossing a boundary). Therefore a Cell cannot be classified as "closed loop", but perhaps it could be thought of as a "mostly-closed" loop system.

CO2 and water are consumed by plants, producing oxygen. Methane consumes oxygen and produces CO2 and water, where is can be used by plants. From this prospective, the cycle could be thought of as being "mostly-closed loop", as shown in the diagram above.

To repeat: Reacting methane consumes oxygen and releases CO2 and water. Plants consume CO2 and water, releasing oxygen. However this is NOT a closed loop because water, oxygen, and CO2 are allowed to enter and exit the loop (cross a boundary), making the cycle open loop.

Other things to note:

Air from the Martian atmosphere (Cheat) is only brought into a Cell when methane is being burned. A CE5 does not burn methane, and therefore it does not provide a way of bringing in Cheat. If a CE5 were the only thing running in a Cell, then there would not be any air being brought in from the Martian atmosphere.

As I mentioned in my proposal, there are pro's and con's to each of the devices that use methane (burner, engine, CE5). The advantage of burning methane is that it enables Cheat. That is, it provides a way of bringing in air from the Martian atmosphere. The advantage of a CE5 is that it converts methane and oxygen into electricity, the disadvantage is that it does not enable Cheat. That is, air from the Martian atmosphere is never brought in through a CE5, it is only brought in when methane is being burned.

Another thing to note is that air from the Martian atmosphere is brought into a Cell independently of the air pressure of that Cell. Air is not brought into a Cell in order to increase air pressure, the Air Pressure Control System takes care of that. To say again, air is brought into a Cell whenever methane is being burned and is independent of the air pressure in a Cell.

Let me repeat: It doesn't matter if the air pressure in a Cell is going up or down. If methane is being burned, then air from the Martian atmosphere comes in. If there isn't any methane being burned, then there isn't any air from the Martian atmosphere coming in.

The Air Pressure Control System, which is simple in design and can be built on Mars, will keep the air pressure in a Cell at a preset level. There are a number of processes in a Cell than can cause the air pressure to increase. And there are a number of processes in a Cell that can cause the air pressure to go down. Either way it doesn't matter. The Air Pressure Control System will hold the air pressure constant.

As a general rule, air coming into a Cell as Cheat tends to increase the air pressure of the Cell. The Air Pressure Control System removes pure CO2 from the air to hold the air pressure at a preset value. Air from the Martian atmosphere coming into a Cell and pure CO2 leaving the Cell causes the percentage of other gases coming in to increase. (Such as nitrogen coming in and not going out. This causes the percentage of nitrogen in the Cell to increase).

  Post #13 Martian Resources Out of Thin Air

Thermodynamic System

I think I need to pause a moment and explain some things about a "thermodynamic system" before answering more questions. In the world of thermodynamics, it's a common practice to draw a circle around some process and refer to it as a "system". The circle drawn around a process is called a "boundary".

Anything inside of that boundary is referred to as a "system." What is going on inside of the boundary is not important. All that matters is what is going into the system and what is coming out.
Here is an example:

Source of image: Thermodynamic system and its type - Definition & Examples

Two things, mass and energy, can go into, or out of, a system by crossing the boundary. A "Closed System" is defined as energy crossing the boundary, but not mass. An "Open System" is defined as both mass and energy crossing the boundary. An "Isolated System" is defined as a system that does not have any mass or energy crossing the boundary.

Source of image: Introduction to Thermodynamics

A boundary can be placed around a large complicated "system". As an example, I made the diagram below by drawing a boundary around a coal powered plant. Mass that is going into the plant is coal and air. Mass going out of the plant is the exhaust and coal ash.

Energy going into the plant is chemical energy stored as coal and air. Energy going out of the plant is the electricity the plant is generating. What is going on inside the plant, such as the details on how electricity is being generated, is not relevant. Something that is as complicated as a power plant can be simplified by putting a boundary around it and defining it as a "system", with mass and energy crossing the boundary.

One thing to note is that the mass going into a system must equal the mass leaving the system. Otherwise the system is either gaining or losing mass. The same is true for energy. Energy going in must equal the energy going out. Otherwise the system is either gaining or losing energy.

A power plant running for 30 years cannot be constantly gaining or losing mass (or energy) for 30 years. If a diagram of a system shows a gain or loss of mass/energy, it means the diagram has not accounted for all the mass/energy going into, or out of, that system.

In the world of engineering, it's a common practice to simplify something by putting a boundary around it and only consider the mass/energy going into, or out of, that system. In my proposal I used this technique a number of times. Apparently it caused some confusion.

Below is a diagram of a Sabatier reactor. On the left is the mass going in (CO2 and water), and on the right is mass leaving the system (methane and oxygen). All the details about what is going on inside the boundary is irrelevant for the sake of my proposal. What is important is that the system is balanced, meaning that the mass going into the system must equal the mass leaving the system. And the energy going into the system must be equal to the energy leaving the system.

In the drawing above, mass going into the system has the same number of atoms as the mass going out of the system. Therefore the system is balanced as far as mass is concerned.

The atoms going out of the system are arranged differently than they were when entering the system. It takes energy in order for the mass to change forms. Therefore the system must be given a supply of energy, which is shown going into the system in the form of electricity.

The electrical energy going into the system must be equal to the energy leaving the system. Energy is leaving the system in the form of chemical energy. That is to say, the mass leaving the system (methane and oxygen), contains more chemical energy than the mass that came into the system (CO2 and water). It took energy to rearrange the mass coming into the system into the form that is leaving the system.

In the drawing above, the amount of mass going into the system is equal to the amount of mass leaving the system. The amount of energy, in the form of electricity, is equal to the amount of energy leaving the system, in the form of chemical energy. Therefore the system shown is balanced.

Searchterm: thermodynamics

SpaceNut #22,
Thank you. That's a lot of good information. It'll take me some time to go through all that. So I have a question:

Is there any kind of tagging that can be done to GW Johnson's "Launch Fundamentals" document that would bring Internet traffic to his posts?

There are a lot of Internet searches done everyday by search engines (such as Google, Yahoo, DuckDuckGo, Bing, etc), for topics on rocket science, space, Moon, Mars, etc. Some of these searches are done by people who have never heard of the Mars Society or this forum. My question is how can a document/post be tagged so that some of these Internet searches are directed to this forum?

In this case I am not asking about how members of this forum can search for posts on this forum. Rather I'm asking how we can direct Internet searches to documents/posts, such as GW Johnson's document? There are millions of searches done on the Internet every second. If we could tag documents so that 0.001% of the searches for Mars, rockets, etc, are directed to this forum, it would greatly enhance our ability to attract people to this forum, and to the Mars Society in general.

If we knew what kind of tagging to use, such as the "hashtags" that I see often, maybe it would help direct Internet searches to this forum. If members knew how to use them, posts like GW Johnson's could be tagged and hopefully would result in more people seeing his document.

Just something to think about.

Maybe I should explain the geometry of a habitat a little bit.

As an example, imagine a room that is square with four 10' sides. The area inside the square room is 100' square feet. (10' x 10' = 100' square feet).

Now imagine a rectangular room that is 4' wide and 25' long. It also is 100' square feet inside.
(4' x 25' = 100' square feet).

Notice that the rectangular room has much more wall space than the square room. The circumference of the square room is 40' (4 walls x 10' each)

The rectangular room has two 25' long walls, for a sum of 50', and two 4' walls for a sum of 8'. The total circumference for the rectangular room is 58'.

When we look at the area of the walls in both rooms, we realize that it takes more heat to heat the rectangular room, than it does the square room. This is because every square foot of wall space will lose a little bit of heat. The more wall area there is, the more heat is lost. It turns out the a square room has the most area inside, with the least amount of area of the walls. (Hope that makes sense)

The trick is to make the room inside as big as possible, while keeping the surface area of the room as small as possible. When the ratio of the room inside, to the surface area, is as high as possible, then that geometry requires the least amount of heat. (Might need to stop and think about that one).

In Kansas there are a lot of old farm houses that are two stories tall and look like big boxes. They are about as tall as they are wide, and they are as wide as they are long. People from out of State often ask why Kansas has so many "big box houses"?

The reason is that a big box has the most area inside, for the least amount of surface area on the outside. Keeping the outside surface area to a minimum means less heat loss in the winter, and less material (studs, siding, paint, etc) to build the structure, for the most amount of space inside.

When looking at two dimensions, the shape that has the most area inside, and the smallest circumference, is a circle.

In three dimensions, the shape that has the most volume inside, and the smallest surface area, is a sphere.
Hope that makes sense.

Tom,

I'm not sure how tagging works. I see people using them often, thought I'd try it. The idea is to tag certain posts so that Internet searches are brought to this forum. I see the Mars Society using them on Facebook often (See lettering in blue below).

I'm not sure if it's a Facebook thing, or if it works for all Internet searches. It seems like there should be a way to add tags to GW Johnson's "Launch Fundamentals" in order to bring Internet searches to his document. But again, I'm not sure how they work.

Content moved

Hey Void, thanks for checking in. Hopefully you'll find time to read through my proposal at some point, then tell me what you think.

Yes it's a bit of work. This is an idea had 25+ years ago. I'm not posting this proposal to develop anything, rather I'm trying to share a set of ideas that I already have, dating back to the 1990's. I think you'll find this set of ideas all fit together as a single system. I've got a lot more things I plan to post over the next several days. I finished the last of my drawings/images last weekend. Each day I'm attempting to review my verbiage, which I had already written, that goes with the drawings/images, then put up a post each day. I work 50+ hours a week and try to review 1 post a day during my lunch break. Things don't always go as planned.

Hopefully you can continue to hang out with me as I post more stuff. Hopefully an image will start to appear of what I have in mind. There is a heck of a lot of reading, I know, and more to come. I can't help that. No one said a Martian base would be simple. Feel free to ask questions. I may not answer them right away, but I WILL get to them eventually. The more people I can get to read through all this the better. (I hope I didn't give you a heart attack! Lol).

Question and Answers:

I don't like the idea of having a furnace that puts CO2 and heat back into a room, there are reasons why we don't do that in homes on Earth.

Actually there are three reasons why we don't do that in homes on Earth. One of those reasons is carbon monoxide (CO), another reason is nitrogen dioxide (NO2), and the third reason has to do with impurities found in natural gas. I'll discuss each of these things separately.
First, carbon monoxide:

Carbon Monoxide

Carbon monoxide is the result of incomplete combustion. As long as the combustion of burning methane is complete, there will not be any carbon monoxide created.

Methane has incomplete combustion when there is not enough oxygen available to react with the methane. In my proposal (Post #14) I did mention that the oxygen level in a Cell is adjustable.
This is what I said:

If need be, the level of oxygen in a Cell can be turned up in order to ensure complete combustion of methane. This coupled with having high quality burners, should alleviate any problem with incomplete combustion, which in turn alleviates any problem with carbon monoxide.

As I mentioned in my proposal, burning methane in a Cell cleans the air in the Cell. If some carbon monoxide were to be present in a Cell, it would float around the Cell until it passed through burning methane. When it passes through burning methane in the presence of oxygen, it will pick up an extra oxygen atom and be converted into carbon dioxide.

It doesn't take that high of a temperature to get carbon monoxide to react with oxygen. This is how catalytic converter's work in automobiles. Methane burns at a temperature of 3,542 F (1,950 C). This is plenty hot enough to get carbon monoxide to react with oxygen.

If need be, a catalytic converter could be added to the exhaust of a burner. The hot exhaust coming from the burner would pass through the catalytic converter before entering the Cell. The problem with this approach is that it adds complexity to the system. More supplies (catalytic converters) would have to be sent from Earth. I don't think catalytic converters will be needed, but it is an option if the need arises.

Because burning methane converts carbon monoxide into carbon dioxide, it provides a way of pumping raw air from the Martian atmosphere directly into a Cell without any additional processing. When outside air is brought into a Cell in this manner, I refer to the air coming in as "Cheat".

Air in the Martian atmosphere contains a small amount of carbon monoxide and is not processed in anyway. Carbon monoxide and any other impurities are burned off by pumping the air directly into burning methane.

Keep in mind that a Cell is a growing area for plants, not a living area for humans. As stated in my proposal (Post #7), any humans working in a Cell must be wearing breathing apparatus. As long as the air quality of a Cell is good enough for plants to survive, then the Cell will work as described.

With good quality burners being used, and the oxygen level being adjustable, and burners constantly cleaning the air, carbon monoxide in a Cell is a not an issue.

Nitrogen Dioxide

Another potential problem is the presence of nitrogen dioxide (NO2). How much nitrogen dioxide is created is dependent on a number of factors, including the air pressure and the percentage of nitrogen in the Cell, both of which are adjustable.

Although breathing nitrogen dioxide (NO2) over long periods time can cause respiratory problems in humans, it turns out that nitrogen dioxide (NO2) in the air can help plants to grow. As I explained in my proposal, a Cell is a growing area for plants, not a living area for humans. Humans must wear breathing apparatus when working in a Cell (Post #7).

In my proposal, methane gas is not burned in living areas for humans. It is only burned in a Cell.

As long as the plants and soil are both healthy, not only will nitrogen dioxide (NO2) not harm plants, it will actually help them to grow. Therefore, having small amounts of nitrogen dioxide in a Cell is not an issue.

How much nitrogen dioxide is in the air at any given time is dependent on how fast it is created verses how fast it is consumed. How fast it is consumed is dependent on a lot of things, including the number of plants in a Cell compared to the size of the Cell, the percentage of nitrogen in the air, the amount of soil that is in the Cell, and on soil structure.

I introduced several metrics in Post #15 of my proposal. Some of these metrics would effect, or be effected by, the amount of nitrogen dioxide in the air.

In Post #15 I introduced the metrics "Ratio of area of plants to area of building" (Metric #2), "Percentage of soil per unit of volume" (Metric #3), and "Amount of food produced per unit of volume" (Metric #4). The metric for the amount of food produced could be increased by having a small amount of nitrogen dioxide in the air.

Both carbon monoxide (CO) and nitrogen dioxide (NO2) can be reduced by using high quality burners. I do not see carbon monoxide (CO) or nitrogen dioxide (NO2) being an issue in a Cell. However, we do need to consider impurities in natural gas.

Impurities in natural gas

The third reason we don't burn natural gas inside of homes on Earth is because of the impurities in natural gas. On Earth, natural gas is mostly methane, but it isn't 100% pure methane (CH4). According to the link below, the methane content of natural gas on Earth can be as little as 65%.

On Earth, natural gas contains many impurities. Many of the problems associated with burning natural gas in homes has to do with the impurities in natural gas.

On Mars, methane made from the Sabatier process does not contain hydrogen sulfide (H2S), nitrogen, helium, mercury, and other harmful impurities found in natural gas on Earth. Therefore burning methane created by a Sabatier reactor does not create the toxins that are created when burning natural gas in homes on Earth.

Although not mentioned in the quote above, natural gas on Earth also contains benzene, which is a problem.

High quality burners will be used on Mars, and methane produced on Mars will not have the impurities found in natural gas on Earth. Therefore I don't see the problems with impurities found in natural gas on Earth being a problem with methane create from a Sabatier reactor on Mars.

The following are answers to question on a proposal that I posted on this forum. My proposal can be found at the following link:

  Proposal: Storing Energy, Introducing a "Cell", a Soil Factory on Marsl

I've gone through some of the comments on this thread and have tried to extracted out some of the questions. I paraphrased the questions into a different sentence, while keeping the topic of the question the same. I then sorted the questions into an order that makes it easier for me to explain/answer. I plan to post questions with the answers over the next several days as time permits. Bear with me, it's going to take a little time for me to make drawings/diagrams to help answer the questions.

If anyone is wanting to check the Email function, feel free to send me an Email with the words "Email Test". I'll respond here that I received the Email.