New Mars Forums

Rob - what an interesting post! I really enjoyed reading that. Since I am not a chemist/civil engineer/phycisist/geologist etc, I sometimes feel as if i can't contribute with "hard fact" messages in the same way as some others here can.
But as a woman I can at lest contribute with interrior decorating considerations, lol.....

I really enjoyed your vision of making as much as possible on site.
One small problem though: It takes a lot of time! Supposedly they all have full time jobs, as well as maintenance of the habitation.
To take on these types of tasks in addition, is really demanding.

Just want to warn that to make the sofa, not only do you need wood and decent carpentry skills. You also need carpenters tool set, a sewing machine (sewing this kind of stuff by hand takes an eternity - believe me..) and the fabric and material to stuff the cushions with...

If you are going to make the fabric, you need some kind of spinning wheel and then a loom. Electrical versions of this are very large and heavy and need transporting to Mars. Spinning wheels and loom (traditional versions) are an acquired skill. A loom is always quite large.

Making fabric from cratch (sheep's wool or linen) by hand is incredibly time consuming.

I'm not saying it's not possible, but they'll either need housewives with some very thorough training... or people who specialise in these jobs as a profession.

I think it's an attractive way of life, to create these things from scratch in the way you describe.

But is it feasible?  What do they do when things break or disappear?
Sewing machines consists of hundreds of parts which sometimes need replacing... That's true for all the other kit I listed.

There is nothing corporate about any of this! It's a traditional communal way of living, like in an old time village.
I can't see a corporation wanting to sponsor people getting to Mars and faffing around (would be their view) with these types of activities - there is no profit in it - quite the opposite!)

For this reason I think the first Mars mission for permanent outpost will have to be either philanthropic, science driver or simply sponsored by national government as "prestige" project with no profit motivation.

Robert - yes, the studio you are depicting is what an educated person from the developed world would expect. Mind you: The padded chair, the sofa, including two pillows and the ornamental globe will have the most expensive home deliver charge in the universe. We've got large flower pots, paintings and flower vases. The freight of this equipment for a handful of units may possibly work out...

Do you see a corporations paying billions to ship 1000 sofas to Mars? At least for anyone but the head honcho?
Anyone who's worked for a large corpoiration knows that nowadays they are even unwilling to pay indiividual offices for mid level managers, for business class tickets or high-end hotels etc, etc. Corporations are always as cheap and stingy as they can possibly get away with.

Even if only the raw material is shipped and it's assembled or made on site, the price is staggering. Then we have the wooden floor tiles, the paintings, the coffee table etc.

Further: If there is any kind of unqualified work that needs doing: Digging, transporting things back and forth, simple construction, some kind of mining operation etc:
A corporation will get cheap labour with low expectations of living conditions for that.
On the same principle that all office work that can be outsourced, usually is, by large corporations. And it won't be some small cosy local company that sets up on Mars. It will be the BPs, Rosnefts of this world and they operate on profit and lowest common denominator (believe me, I worked for several organisations like this and am very hardened in this respect. They have absolutely no heart and no social conscience whatsoever). 

Think sweatshops, shady outsourcing contracts and environment cover-ups.
If they can possibly get away with using cheap labour from the third world do do the unqualified tasks, they will. Do you think they'd ship over a deluxe studio like that for a Bangladeshi construction worker?

No, he'd be lucky if the corporation provides a capsule, a communal canteeen and some porn flicks (shipping a real stripper/prostitute like in your film scenario, will be too expensive - no profit for the corporation unless she is actually an employee of them, and they take their cut of her income...)
And it's not like she can pay her own way to Mars.

The corporate government idea is naive and very dangerous and it can only end one way: Exploitation and fascism of the worst order. Mars will have to be some kind of scientific meritocracy or democracy, where whoever calls the shots about the living conditions is either democratically elected or a very genuinely benevolent dictator who will ensure that everyone is treated the same and has acceptable living conditions.
It's not like you can hand in your notice and walk away, on Mars.

I'm not talking about an intrusive type of communism like what we know from the past.
It doesn't even need to be called Communism. 

I am talking about a logical way of organising things in a hostile environment, that happens to have a lot in common with Communism.

The first colonists will have a lot in common with tribes, like Indians for example. They shared things equally, and everyone contributed with whatever they were best suited to do, whether it was hunting, making clothes, keeping the fire or something else.

It seems like a complete waste of time to run around with red flags, have accountability meetings and be a pro at quoting Marx. I am not promoting anything along those lines, for Mars. I'm talking purely about a way to run a society.

All I am saying is that an extreme capitalist (corporatist) view, as promoted by modern USA and Russia, does not belong on Mars.

Would you like to see a Mars where the corporate bigwigs have perfect safe environment suits and transport, live in spacious and luxorious quarters.... While workers are scraping by with the bare essentials in grim conditions where they can't control their environment, or even leave the settlement?

They'd be unable to do anything at all to improve their lot, just like serfs and peasants in the past - as everything is owned by the corporation(s) and they need special equipment, not freely available, just to go outside or travel anywhere.

Everything in RD's scenario is controlled by the corporation! The workers can't even strike - because the corporation controls the very air they breathe! If everything is driven by an underlying requirement for profits, by a corporate government, life on Mars will be hell for anyone but the very elite and perhaps a few irreplaceable engineers.

This is a terrible idea in my opinion. Corporate government = fascism. Read up on it if you don't believe me.

I remember a book I read as a child - by Robert Heinlein, in which Mars was governed by a corporation. The plot of the book was driven by the fact that the corporation tried to screw over the inhabitants of Mars by skimping on expensive processes and maintenance to save cost. All decision the senior decision makers were in the pocket of this corporation, including the headmaster of the school that the main character was attending.

Corporations cannot be trusted!
Profit is always their driving force.

I am a strong believer in that Mars can potentially be a fresh start for humanity, and that a Mars colony can be free of the things that are plaguing us on Earth: Capitalism, wars, pollution and more.

It's always been said that Communism would work just fine, if everyone was intelligent and motivated, and there was no rich capitalists to compare standard of living against. I believe this to be true.

The people initially colonising Mars will be scientists and engineers, i.e. intelligent people. They will no doubt be highly motivated. There will be no rich capitalists to compare yourself against, on Mars. I.e. initially there will be no ads, no people who have more than others because everyone will live together and work together under the same conditions. No extravagant consumption will be possible. This environment is the perfect greenhouse for a true communist society (which, to clarify, has never existed on Earth).

Letting a corporation into this will be like letting the snake into the Garden of Eden. If you let them make decisions, you are taking a bit from the proverbial apple.
Don't do it!

I am completely against this "Corporate Government" idea. I don't think it would work and Mars should be a scientific outpost to begin with, then a new type of society for those who are passionate about being there, or who would like to live in a society of equals, with a mission to grow the human presence there.

Those who want to live on Mars with the motivation to get rich should not be allowed in whatsoever, and the colony should not be run by corporate interests on Earth.

Sorry, i've said what I have to said about this, and then some. Sorry to be ranting.
Frankly it's Tom Kalbfus that sets me off, but that's no excuse to be a broken record.
I think my position on these things are pretty clear.

Re the question about the Chinese Emperor; no - he was considered divine, so his word was law. But he was done away with almost a century ago.  Mao ended up with almost the same  near divine status (partly it's culture in East Asia - compare with other contries). This was contrary to traditional communist ideals of course.

Instead my comments refer to the secretaries of the Chinese Communist Party - in modern times. Let's say, Deng Xiao Ping and onwards.

Re the US influence after the war:
Your comparison was apples with pears!

Just because we ourselves messed up with the War, doesn't in any way give that we need to become Big Mac-eating, Coca-Cola drinking, Rock'n rolling fans of multiculturalism, pride parades, violent & vulgar TV programs and whatever else is pouring in from across the Atlantic. It's killed our national souls. If you are British - just look at your own country. 

And if you look at the countries that only got under US influence recently (90s) they have a great deal more left of their own culture. Their kids don't swear in US English and they are not themselves instantly jumping on the latest politically correct concept that becomes popular with American hipsters.

It's becoming increasingly clear to me that the American influence has become extremely damaging to Europe. I don't want to be horrible about it because I know that most of the people here are North Americans and I absolutely don't blame any of them personally for my grudges. But I think most Europeans will know where I am coming from on this, even if you personally happen to love Starbucks and the latest US indie band.

Haha!

Do you have plans of trying to get into the space programme?

Interesting to hear about your background! You are true space geek even though, for reasons of circumstances you could never work for NASA.
Sorry - I've not got anything. You know how it is - there is usually a special skill/language that's needed, and if it's outsourced it goes to India or Ukraine, not a place like Canada. I would if I could... And I can relate to your experience of not really having your heart in your existing career.
But if you are a programmer and unable to get a job, why not set up some websites to try to make a few quid?

The funding is supposed to  be from crowdsourcing, ads and corporate sponsorship - right?
I'm thinking - they couldn't even fund a TV series on Mars that way (remember Pioneer One? )
I think it will flop. I hope I am WRONG!

Gosh - checking their financial model, they need $6 billion.
This is a chicken and egg situation. Nobody will invest in something they don't have confidence will happen (compare, sponsoring Olympics..) and it will never happen because nobody will sponsor it...

The only hope is that some eccentric billionaire throws in the first billions, then possibly companies would have the confidence to join up.

I think you are wrong on China. And don't kid yourself about "liberalising". I think their strength is partly the fact that they have strong leadership that's unlikely to change. No thinking people in Europe have any illusions about the US being credible as a democracy, for a number of reasons. (and the same thing can be said for at least half of the European countries too, for various reasons). Democracy is an illusion in most countries. Even those who like America, usually like it because they suport the "neo" world order where corporations run things and American media dictates who's good or bad and where to invade.

In China they are upfront about not being democratic. Plus - the Communist party is a sort of meritocracy. They skim the cream off the elite from the best universities there, and offer them stable well-paying and prestigous jobs, virtually for life. So they have bright, well-educated and experienced people running the country, centrally. Sure they have corruption and can be somewhet ruthless to their population at times. But it's a very competent country that's going places, whether we like it or not. (I don't like that mentality at all, but nobody can denies that what they are doing is working for them, and mvery fast too).

Iran - I don't think they can do it alone, but they could be a useful partner for someone like China, possibly. They have a huge surplus of young and very well educated people. Iran is incredibly keen to show itself off as forward thinking and modern - to prove that this can work for an islamic state. They have tons of programs to encourage building robots, automation and engineering, and practically free energy. Like Russia, they know they have to get off the oil dependency and they are doing as much as they can.
(As a silly footnote I guess they'll have to make a space suit with a built in hijab for any female astronauts + figure out how to pray facing Mecca when in Space!) But it's a big country that's keen to prove itself and that could work with both China and Russia.

As for Europe / US:  -We might be able to do it together. But I don't think either of us have our houses in order. Corporations are running the show. EU is split, confused and broke, the US is greedy, aggressive and both. I fear both our continents are "has-beens" and that the future for space travel lies further East...

Russia - knows it needs to diversify away from oil and gas and has some ambitious projects for it. May or may not pay off.
Russia has huge challenges internally to sort, I don't think it will want to commit to driving a Mars project. Maybe in partnership with China, probably not the US or EU. Russia is in arms about how it's being villified and blackpainted in Western media. I think they trust places like China a lot more even than Europe right now. Not to mention the US.

Unless MarsOne works out (tihi) I don't think anything is in the pipeline for the next 20 years (buhu).
Unless some serious space chemistry suddenly happens between any coalition of China / Russia / Iran.