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I would think a better guage is the consquences of not wearing a veil. You can wear a veil and still be free.
True. Freedom to chose, veil or no. That's what I meant.
Just an explanation; I'm not seeking an abortion rights debate; I've stated my views, etc.
I concur. Therefore I'll just clarify my own position. The reason I stated that saying the present Administration is "no better than the patriarchal repressives in the Middle East" is because it ignores the degrees of difference.
American evangelical loonies aren't calling for women to be stripped of their right to vote, compelled to obey their husbands in all matters and generally be chattel. Perhaps it's only because they are legally unable to implement such things, but still it remains. Their MidEast religious wacko counterparts are very much of that opinion.
And just for the record, I'm pro-choice by default. Generally I don't care if someone has an abortion or not. Were it my call I'd introduce a cutoff point, within the first three months or so unless other health concerns came up. It would be rather arbitrary, but no more so than the current approach.
I'm of the opinion however that it remains such a heated issue largely because its supporters, rather than convincing the voters of it and getting legislation passed instead opted to bypass that process and have the courts legislate it from the bench.
We all agree. A Christian patriarchy is infinitely better than an Islamic patriarchy.
Woo-Hoo! Break out the champagne!
= = =
Concerning Islamic nations, wearing the veil is a terrific barometer of how free that society is.
If we declare victory because the oil is flowing and yet Iraqi women return to wearing the veil, then I submit that is proof Bush never gave a "flying bleep" about freedom & democracy.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/conflict-i … -emergence of the veil, in Iraq.
Just to show how nuanced, how complicated this stuff all is.
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Having broken Iraq, we cannot leave. Having given the rest of the world our middle finger, no one will help.
This is why I was against regime change, at least the way we did it.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0, … 0.html]And this:
As the divisions between Shia, Sunni and Kurd take shape at government level, the effects are being felt in the military. Both Iraqi and American officers say that the Ministry of Defence in Baghdad has fallen under the control of Kurdish political parties, and that this now affects all decisions taken by the ministry.
One Iraqi officer also speaks of the influence of the Badr Brigade, the armed wing of the biggest Shia political party which now controls the National Assembly and the ministry of the interior. "The Badr Brigade is the biggest terrorist group and they run the interior ministry. The Kurds are running the MoD. The first thing they ask you when you want to become an officer is, 'Are you an Arab or a Kurd?' " Most Arab applicants, he maintains, are now being turned down for officer status.
By the way, some amongst our friends the Kurds may be starting their own terror campaign against Turkey.
Edited By BWhite on 1121793377
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050719/ap_ … s_bush]New female Supreme Court judge?
*I nominate http://www.judgejudy.com/Bios/allaboutjudy.asp]Judge Judy (Judith Sheindlin). She is so incredibly sharp, no-nonsense, etc. I love it when she yells "You're an idiot!" occasionally to some doofus in the courtroom. :laugh:
Sometimes she's a bit too harsh, but most of the time I agree with her reasoning and verdicts, etc. I -really- would like to see her on the Supreme Court. :up:
--Cindy
Edith Clement?
She helped decided this case:
Planned Parenthood of Houston v. Sanchez: upheld a Texas statute that restricted the distribution of federal family-planning money to any organization that performed abortions or participated in abortion-related activities.
US Congress appropriates money to support family planning. Texas says any group that has any connection with abortion cannot receive the federal money.
Edith Clement votes to uphold the ban.
Exact same scenario as with family planning in Egypt.
= = =
Edit to add:
I guess I missed the double super secret liberal memo on Clement.
Edith Clement is as good a choice as the Left™ can hope for.
<pause>
Waiting for Dobson/Falwell to explode.
Edited By BWhite on 1121789074
The Islamic terrorists are trying to stamp -US- out. Not just the US, but the West: Western principles and values.
Yes, Cindy.
However the real nut-jobs are few in number and relatively weak. And what power the Saudi Wahabis have is propped up by OIL MONEY!
They also are not the only people trying to stamp out Western principles and values.
More chickens and eggs, I am afraid. But with modern media and the internet much can be accomplished very rapidly provided we do not isolate those communities.
> Okay, so we need to make sure they can receive our corrupting media and have internet access? This planning, while resting on sound concepts, seems to fall apart whenever the details come up.<
We shoot ourselves in the foot, or worse, all the time.
American culture is more easily spread with Big Macs and Nikes than JDAMs. But doing it that way means the US government won't have control over the process.
Do we want the global spread of American ideas or do we want the world to worship our flag and obey Washington?
The pinnacle of western political philosophy includes the rubric "one person = one vote" yet we are 5% of the global population (if combined with UK, Canada and Australia) - - if our "western memes" are to infect the entire world we must accept we cannot establish a traditional Roman-style empire.
I can't give an opinion because I haven't been aware of this.
--Cindy
Wow! ???
Cindy, the American Taliban really is MUCH stronger than you realize.
*Actually I do realize the strength of what you call "the American Taliban."
But the would-be fury and intolerance of the Christian Coalition and Bush's fundie/evangelical friends are muzzled by the Bill of Rights.
The Taliban in Afghanistan had no muzzle. There were no safety checks or counter-balances within the framework of a government above them. They were the gov't.
I realize "the American Taliban" seeks to take control of our gov't and in many respects has much more power than it should.
But it is precisely the Bill of Rights and etc. which must be protected...from all terrorists.
The U.S. (despite all its wrongs, past crimes, etc.) IS the nation which spawned the Bill of Rights. That's precious, and we need to protect it.
--Cindy
I agree.
Our Bill of Rights and way of life are threatened from many directions. To become too obsessed with one threat distracts us from another. In my opinion, a Christian patriarchy would be infinitely better than an Islamic patriarchy, but in truth I would prefer a third option. :;):
Multi-tasking is called for.
And good police work will keep the damage inflicted by Islamic nut-jobs to a minimum while we work on long term solutions.
= = =
By the way, the Taliban kills health care workers for teaching their women about how sex and reproduction works and the GOP cuts off their funding unless they teach "abstinence only"
Like I said, the American Taliban.
Cindy, http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/ … over/]read this
By next year the program will be in seven Egyptian governorates. The program will most likely end when USAID funds dry up.
"We're shifting our emphases to reflect changes in U.S. foreign policy," said Ken Ellis, the director of USAID Egypt.
Reproductive health programs are being phased out at U.S. Agency for International Development, in response to pressure for more emphasis on abstinence-only for contraception education and the Bush administration's reinstatement of the so-called Global Gag Rule, a policy lifted by President Bill Clinton.
It bars U.S. family planning assistance to any foreign health care agency that uses funds from any source to perform abortions, provide counseling and referral for abortion or lobby to make abortion legal or more available in their country. The agencies may perform abortions only when there is a threat to the woman's life or the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest.
Edited By BWhite on 1121783134
Hey Cindy, what is your opinion on the US being prohibited from including realistic familiy planning (birth control) as part of foreign aid?
I can't give an opinion because I haven't been aware of this.
--Cindy
Wow! ???
Cindy, the American Taliban really is MUCH stronger than you realize.
True equality for women within Islam would be the fastest most effective method of assimilating that culture and neutralizing the patriarchal rage that fuels the jihadists.
Agreed. Unfortunately, handing out birth control in care packages isn't going to cut it. You're talking about very deep cultural changes that need to take place before we can even reach that point.
More chickens and eggs, I am afraid. But with modern media and the internet much can be accomplished very rapidly provided we do not isolate those communities.
What to do:
(1) Good police and intel work;
(2) Work to improve women's rights within Islamic nations, but without safe affordable access to reliable contraception those efforts will fail;
(3) Stop using petroleum as our primary fuel.1) Part of the solution, ineffective by itself.
2) Requires far more elaborate modification of Islamic society before it can be implemented.
3) Agreed. Options are being developed. Impediments to nuclear power must be removed, hybrid cars should be encouraged in various ways. Hydrogen is not yet ready for prime-time.
(1) Buys time and minimizes damage from terrorism. Very very very few people are willing to be suicide bombers.
Those British boys may have been tricked by al Qaeda into thinking they would escape. That trick is spent.is
So, don't overestimate the terror "threat"
(2) This is a multi-generational project and we have many other unrelated items on our plate. Do (1) correctly and (2) loses a good deal of its urgency.
Of course, if the actual objective is distraction while another agenda is being advanced by stealth, then to say that ALL attention needs to be focused on accomplishing (2) allows right-wing sleight of hand.
Bush did not invade Iraq to fight terror. His real target was the United Nations.
Edited By BWhite on 1121782139
True equality for women within Islam would be the fastest most effective method of assimilating that culture and neutralizing the patriarchal rage that fuels the jihadists.
Fear of women's liberation and homosexual rights are a large part of what inflames the radical Islamicist nut-jobs. That is a lagre part of why they "hate our freedoms"
Remember that female US Air Force captain who got in trouble for leaving the base in Saudi Arabia without a veil?
= = =
Of course, for Dobson and Falwell the battle is whether we will have a Christian patriarchy or an Islamic patriarchy.
And as I said a few days ago, "A plague on both houses!"
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Hey Cindy, what is your opinion on the US being prohibited from including realistic familiy planning (birth control) as part of foreign aid?
In that respect doesn't the American Taliban empower the Islamic Taliban by undermining women's rights?
Bill, I'm curious as to why you're suddenly on this "police work" kick, what brought this on with such zeal?
I have always advocated strong police work and intelligence operations. The need to do so, ahem, more loudly is to shut the door on charges of "appeasement" which is a "TALKING POINT" the Right seeks to spread about the Left.
Besides, careful diligent intelligence work is the only way to fight a group that has indeed turned to crime (drug running etc. . . ) to help fund operations.
The "state sponsored" paradigm always was BS. It's the belief that a billion Muslims are trapped by evil leaders much like the case with Communism. I think the neo-cons really truly believed that the fall of Baghdad was to be like the fall of the Berlin Wall and that tens or hundreds of millions of Muslims would rush forth to embrace the West just like East Germans who drove Trabants all over Europe in an ecstasy of freedeom.
Sorry, that was just plain wrong. ???
Perhaps going even further than militant jihadi-wacko Islam, "serious" Islam, as defined by those who take the religion to the point of actually praying five days a day in the office, dressing in traditional garb, etc. is an alien element within American, Australian and European society, one in which the fanatics grow. Foreign colonists.
See, the neo-cons are not content to neutralize the whackos, they really do want a "Clash of Civilizations" - - I am all for working to secularize Islam, by the way.
The best first step is women;'s rights and those are best secured by readily available contraception. Women's rights don't mean zippo without access to safe, reliable affordable contraception.
But no, we cannot do that. Why?
Our own Taliban-like conservatives refuse to allow family planning as part of foreign aid. Abstinence only, thats the ticket!
= = =
What to do:
(1) Good police and intel work;
(2) Work to improve women's rights within Islamic nations, but without safe affordable access to reliable contraception those efforts will fail;
(3) Stop using petroleum as our primary fuel.
The Right loves to compare bin Laden to Hitler. Okay then, everytime you full up your SUV with $75 of gasoline you are sending bin Laden a check. Think on that.
Did the USA send Lend-Lease to Germany?
= = =
Our Administration is waging the "War on Terror" exactly BACKWARDS in so many ways they must either be complete imbeciles or they KNOW perfectly well that al Qaeda is not a real threat to our civilization and they wish to piggyback their agenda onto a trumped up "War on Terror"
My college campus had three (yes, exactly three) Nazis. They never got dates.
We also had two members of the Spartacus Youth League (honest-to-God Communists). We laughed at them.
Have no fear, Cindy. The FBI keeps a VERY CLOSE WATCH on radical Muslims who speak out like those Shaun describes. Heck, the FBI has files on Greenpeace members.
Good police work is the answer. The only answer.
LO
Here's an article from today's "The Australian" newspaper, which illustrates the kind of problem I've mentioned that exists within Islam - Crackdown]http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15976086%255E601,00.html]"Crackdown on terror books".
For those with too little time to read the whole thing, here are a few sentences:-
Federal and state counter-terrorism officers will investigate at least one Islamic bookshop in Sydney following revelations it is selling literature promoting jihad and justifying suicide bombings.
Another bookstore in Melbourne, run by the country's most fundamentalist cleric, was yesterday selling a book calling for Christians to be trampled underfoot.
"It is either Islam or death," says the book, which is sold from the bookshop attached to the Brunswick prayer room where Sheik Mohammed Omran delivers his fiery sermons.
The latest glossy magazine, from a group called Islamic Youth Movement in Sydney, features a glowing interview with a leader of Iraqi terrorist group Ansar al-Islam.
Fundamentalist scholar Sheik Omran's shop sells a book that details reasons Muslims should not befriend Jews, Christians or non-Muslims. "If it becomes clear that someone is at odds with Islam, then fight him. The (Jew or Christian) who insults the Prophet should be killed," it says. Sheik Omran's website also praises a US scholar convicted last week for inciting his young followers to wage war. The website paints the influential scholar, Ali-al-Timimi, as a victim of spurious charges.
Weeding out these rogue Imams may not totally prevent acts of terror in our streets, but not weeding them out is unconscionable! We can't carry on turning a blind eye to this sort of thing for fear of upsetting the Muslim populations in our respective countries. Clerics like these must be rounded up and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
Did they discovered that rigth now ?
Bright journalists !
Wha, quelle claivoyance !
No, they used http://google.com]google.
Smart journalists!
Damn, took freaking 5 hours to rebuild the search database.
Five hours of work or five hours of watching the monitor? :;):
By the way, we need a <snark> icon.
Edited By BWhite on 1121742670
A minor nit. Organized crime task forces do seek to prevent future crime.
Perhaps coordinated covert intelligence to infiltrate terror rings goes beyond what we consider traditional police work but that is within my understanding of police work.
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cid/orgcrime/ocshome.htm]FBI link:
The FBI's fight against organized crime is unlike other criminal programs. Instead of focusing on these crimes as individual events, the FBI's Organized Crime Program targets the entire organization responsible for a variety of criminal activities. The FBI has found that even if key individuals in an organization are removed, the depth and financial strength of the organization often allows the enterprise to continue.
The dismantling or disruption of major international and national organized criminal enterprises is an area of FBI expertise. The FBI is uniquely qualified to dismantle organizations because of the experience, training and expertise of its agents in targeting criminal enterprises as opposed to individual criminal acts, the broad Title 18 and Title 21 statutory jurisdictions at its disposal, the FBI's presence throughout the country, and its history as a methodical and thorough investigative agency.
Like I said, POLICE WORK.
Edited By BWhite on 1121704286
Now, you are correct:
Oui, oui ... but what do we do, now that the U.S. has committed the error,
I'm more balanced, toppling Saddam was not a mistake, I just think that could have done with threats, (as a chessplayer, I think that threat is often more efficient that direct action). Error was to destroy Iraqi administration infrastructure and to turn the Sunnis into direct foes and insurgents.
At first, more troops and more economic help are to be sent to Afghanistan where Talibans are increasily active.
For Iraq, "We shall stay as long as necessary" without giving a withdrawal calendar seems to me as a very doubtful rethoric, it might sound for the Sunnis as a pretext for a neverending occupation. Argument that the terrorists will just have to wait the troops return and then start again terrorism seems to me as wrong, if assured that the occupation will end, Sunnis have no more reasons to act as terrorists, if they share power with the Shias andthe Kurds.
By the way, iraqi Kurdistan must not become a rearbase for anti turk terrorism tourists are victims of.
Sunnis must be sure that war is not aimed at them as the crushing of Fallujah did. If so, if they don't need the terrorists' help anymore, they will get rid of the Al Qaeda murderers. With no more local support, Al Qaeda could be deleted in Iraq.
Maybe that's where the French can help, mending trust between US and the Sunnis, but I'm not quite sure that the french networks in Iraq kept some influence among the Sunni leaders.
In a conflict, if the aim is to gain peace, the looser must be abble to claim for victory. If the US say they will withdraw and when, the iraqi insurgents will claim this is a victory, maybe they will lower the number of attacks or stop attacks, and then there will be less casualties among the iraqi civilians and the coalition troops.
This is just an opinion, I can't say that I'm right or wrong.
:up:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.h … 049]Retire orbiter sooner rather than later:
WASHINGTON - According to a White House staffer, a memo representing official Bush administration space policy calls for no more than 15 space shuttle flights before the fleet is retired in 2010.
The memo, promoted by Paul Shawcross, NASA's examiner at the White House Office of Management and Budget (OMB), calls for a massive cut to the number of approved Space Shuttle missions remaining to assemble the International Space Station (ISS) The direct result could be an ISS that is smaller and less capable than is spelled out in various international agreements.
This document was originally supposed to have been part of the Administration's formal "passback" on the NASA FY 2006 budget. However, the approach spelled out in this document was rejected out of hand by (then) NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe.
According to NASA, industry, and other government sources, shortly after O'Keefe's departure in February 2005 the paper's contents were being touted by Shawcross at NASA and elsewhere as now representing the "official White House position" on NASA's budget and how it was to deal with the shuttle.
Specifically, the memo says "The Administration is convinced that 28 Shuttle flights are not required to assemble a Space Station that meets the goals of the Vision and that this number of flights is not achievable by 2010. The projected increases to the Shuttle's lifetime budget could put the Vision in jeopardy ... To ensure that the Shuttle can be retired safely by the end of the decade at close to its planned lifetime budget, and without undue schedule pressure, Passback assumes that the Space Shuttle program is limited to a total of 15 additional flights to complete the assembly of the Space Station."
Only the President swims at a pay grade high enough to accomplish curtailment of ISS, if Congress agrees, that is.
Clark:-
... yet we end up with a handful of attacks that are supposed to represent a threat to our way of life. It just isn't so.
Hmmm.
If you look at what I said, you'll find I stated quite clearly my opinion that the terrorists will never succeed in changing the West to suit their religious views. That was the point of my argument. Their cause is not connected to any rational or attainable goals. In that sense, you're right; our way of life, ultimately, is not threatened.In another sense, though, there are some people who regard having trains and buses blown out from under them in rush-hour traffic as a threat to their way of life. Probably because their way of life involves travelling to and from work each day on public transport.
These same people, whose views I tend to sympathize with, look at being incinerated in an explosion while holidaying in a place like Bali, or having the architecture in their cities suddenly and explosively rearranged by means of passenger planes used as battering rams, and think of these things as somehow threatening - at least on a local scale.
And I think they have a point.
Wow! I see a genuine basis for agreement. Lets see how far we can go and maybe resolve this dispute for good. So, in the spirit of constructive engagement, I offer:
We agree on your post quoted above. I also note that lightning kills more people each year than al Qaeda. That said, in the future, good POLICE WORK will prevent these attacks.
Good police work like not revealing the identity of double agents. Or snatching people from Italy and having an Italian judge issue arrest warrants for CIA agents.
Or giving classified material to known http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dy … rinter]gay escort web site operators. :;):
"Jeff Gannon" had possession of and questioned Joe Wilson about a CIA memo that was classified at the time of the interview. How did this guy get that memo?
No one at the White House will discuss this question.
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Shaun, I never, ever, said the War on Terror didn't need winning.
More to the point, our current Administration "leading us" is like the Keystone Kops doing so many things wrong their policies are making it harder rather than easier to win.
And despite our countless blunders, al Qaeda manages only a small handful of attacks, which proves how WEAK they really are.
In his heart, bin Laden probably is an evil as Hitler - - but he has maybe one-billionth or one ten-billionth of Hitler's power - - so lets not inflate a boogeyman beyond the reality.
Good police work premised on strong state-to-state understandings, like that terrific operation the CIA recently accomplished with excellent assistance from those cheese eating surrender monkey French!
These threads have created these lines between individuals here that really aren't necessary. We're all part of the same group (Mars enthusiasts). Our differences are minor. Don't let this utter shit get to your heads.
Can't argue with that. But I must comment on this:
... AND Western fascism-lite wannabes that people like Cindy and Shaun cheerlead for.
Suffice it to say. . . Tastes great and less filling.
![]()
Carry on beating the bejesus out of that horse skeleton.
Heck, if you gotta have fascists, incompetent fascists are the way to go. . .
I mean come on, making prisoners wear women's underwear on their heads and do dog tricks? Or if that fails have US servicewomen partially disrobe and give 'em lap dances?
I wonder how much actionable intel that generated. :;):
Can't really call it torture, or even cruel and unusual since there are free American citizen who fly to Vegas and pay good money for similar treatment.
But after word gets out about stuff like that, the real fascists will need to hang their heads and pretend not to know these US wannabe fascists.
</snark>
Bill:-
... AND Western fascism-lite wannabes that people like Cindy and Shaun cheerlead for.
Now now, Bill!
Be careful what you pray for. . .
I shall take the public advice offered by Josh and other advice given in private and undertake a unilateral ceasefire on issues related to terrorism and Iraq.
Don't no one post anything too outrageous or maybe I will need to create a new persona.
Cheers!
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By the way, you are right Josh.
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One edit.
When does prudence become appeasement and turn around and bite you in the a***?
It would be imprudent to justify appeasement on the grounds of prudence. :;):
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