New Mars Forums
You are not logged in.
- Topics: Active | Unanswered
Announcement
#401 Re: Not So Free Chat » Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon. » 2017-01-15 07:16:31
One way to use solar energy on the Moon is to build a colony there and use the solar energy locally. Solar energy is available 100% of the time at the poles of the Moon. The more people that live on the Moon, the less we need to tax the Earth's resources.
#402 Re: Planetary transportation » Giant robots on Mars! » 2017-01-14 14:17:47
The advantage of the robot is you can scratch your nose, and if you sneeze on your face plate, you aren't stuck looking at your snot for the rest of the EVA, within the robot you can wipe it off the windshield. Also you can handle tools more easily with a robot actuated hand than with your own hand within a pressurized space suited glove. You can definitely have longer EVAs and bring back more samples with larger rocks.
#403 Planetary transportation » Giant robots on Mars! » 2017-01-14 10:55:14
- Tom Kalbfus
- Replies: 11
The top one is the real robot built in South Korea, the bottom picture is the robot depicted in Avatar. Now I was thinking, if these robots were used in the Movie Avatar, what about using robots like these on Mars, or maybe someday Venus or Titan? The larger the robot on Venus the easier it is to keep cool, or warm as in the case of Titan. On Mars, one of these walking robots could replace a rover.
#404 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Possible Lunar Lava Tubes per Grail probe. » 2017-01-14 10:48:19
Agriculture don't need a full Earth gravity, humans might if they want to return to Earth someday. The best analog would be a top loader washing machine. I think one would enter it through a tower in the center, A dome would cover the whole thing and keep the air inside. An airlock on top of the dome would lead to an elevator tower or a staircase which would go down to the center of the bowl. If the tower is 5 meters wide the relative velocity of the bowl would be 3.5 miles per hour, it should be possible to step on such a moving plat form. Moving outwards from that increases the centrifugal force, and one would just walk up the inside of the bowl until you entered thr 1 Earth gravity region. There would be multiple wheels and rails for this contraption, at its fastest edge, it is only going 70 miles per hour, no need for maglevs or anything like that.
#405 Re: Not So Free Chat » Politics » 2017-01-14 10:42:05
I think there was intervention by the the USA and various European powers, and Japan, against the Bolsheviks in favour of the White Russian resistance. It failed, largely due to the disunity and lack of coordination of the white forces, leaving the Red Army victorious.
And the Cold war that followed justified that action. The World would be so much better off were it not for those Bolsheviks, Russia would be a lot better off! The Bolsheviks got their chance because the Kaiser got greedy. After the American Revolution, there were all sorts of hucksters pedaling their own brand of Revolution, Karl Marx and Lenin were two of those, Maximillian Robespierre was another.
#406 Re: Not So Free Chat » Election Meddling » 2017-01-14 09:18:39
Tom:
You are way, way off the mark in every single one of your comments to my posting! What I see in you is an ideologue not capable of rational thought when it comes to politics. You often inject that ideological insanity into many of the other threads you visit on this forum, too.
You are excessively defensive of Trump, precisely because deep down somewhere, you know he is unfit, and it galls you when others call it to your attention. I’ve seen it many other Trump supporters, too. Myself, I didn't like either candidate for any of a variety of good, rational reasons. But of the two great evils, I thought Trump would be a little worse.
What you and the Media have done is make Trump into a monster he is not, you tried to make him more unacceptable than Hillary and it didn't work. Hillary was a particularly weak candidate, so the only thing she could do was bash Trump, the media was on her side and so they joined in on the fray, instead of reporting the news accurately as they were supposed to. So you basically lied to yourselves about Trump, you started believing those lies that Trump was Hitler and you got scared when he won! The last time something like this happened was the election of Abraham Lincoln, the Southern Democrats scared themselves by telling themselves that we was some sort of monster that would free their slaves and then those slaves would rise up and start killing white people just as they did during the Haitian Revolution in 1804. So do you propose a Civil War to prevent Trump from being President? We already had an election and he won, the only way to top him now is a violent revolution, of the sort the South advocated when they rejected the results of the 1860 election.
Trump has brought nothing but chaos ever since his campaign started. Before that, he caused chaos in the real estate market. People's past actions are the best predictor of their future actions. “Fairness” has absolutely nothing to do with that, and waiting for the inauguration to say that is totally irrelevant. I don't need to cut him or his cabinet selections "a break", as you put it, because their past behavior is a far better predictor of what they will do in those new jobs, more so than any stupid ideology or campaign "promises" (lies actually).
Trump is not ideological at all, he is willing to work with Democrats and has in the past with his various development projects, if only you would stop attacking him because he is not the person you would like to see as President. Sorry it was not Hillary's year, you can either be a sore loser or you can try to make the best of things. Advocating revolution and overthrow of the government is not going to get you anywhere. Trump isn't so bad, he's not Hitler, he's not even David Duke. Why don't you give him a chance to act as President and see what he does before you tear him down?
As for Russia, I was defending this country against the threat from Russia before you were born. I have NOT changed. But your erroneous perceptions have, and certainly not for more accuracy. I find your idiotic comment about me and Russia quite insulting.
So are all Russians evil, do you attack them on site? If someone in your presence starts speaking Russian, do you start throwing punches?
My uncle is part Russian, he has relatives in Russia, and I do not appreciate you scapegoating them. You know we've never actually fought a war with Russia!
The Great Recession was caused by many things, but the misbehavior of wall street investment banks driven by greed, and unfettered by any ethics or laws at all, was one of the major causes, if not THE major cause. Government had little to do with it, except not to enforce what regulations or laws that did exist, and that actually happened on the GOP's watch (“W” and a Republican House), because of their idiotic ideology, that in part calls for dismantling all regulations (which are rules for fair play, really).
Your “fact-challenged” (in plainspeak: “wrong”) statement that "government caused the Great Recession" reveals that, like Trump (and so many others), you value ideology over objective fact. I pity you, for you will never see the world as it truly is.
Unlike you, I have never been bankrupt. I managed my life better than that. Of that, I am proud. You, on the other hand, should be ashamed, because you quite evidently mismanaged yours, having gone bankrupt.
Like many other rich elites, for which the bankruptcy laws have been distorted to allow this, Trump used them to stiff people he owed money to, and walk away enriched, in addition to not paying his debts. Ordinary citizens don't get to do that, their debts get reduced, but the filer doesn't get enriched. So how is that "fair"? Knowing that Trump did that 6 times-of-public-record, and you could not, why do you defend him, and that unfair situation? Take off your ideology glasses and see the giant corporate welfare state for what it really is.
It is clear that Spacenut is a Hillary Clinton supporter. That’s OK. It is clear that I supported neither Clinton nor Trump, but that I voted against Trump as the slightly greater of two great evils that I perceived. That’s OK. It is clear that you are a Trump fan, and that’s OK.
The election is over, you no longer need to defend him so radically. He will either succeed or fail on his own. I merely predicted failure, based on his past behavior. And making that prediction is OK, in this thread. There is nothing about that for you to prove or disprove. Trump himself will determine the accuracy of my prediction. He needs no help from you to do that.
Now go away and come back when your vision is not so clouded by ideology.
GW
#407 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Possible Lunar Lava Tubes per Grail probe. » 2017-01-14 07:12:05
I figure it is a giant space station made out of stone.
Actually the Moon is a nice stable platform for rotating a habitat on. You don't have to worry about it wobbling if it is properly braced.
#408 Re: Not So Free Chat » Panspermia » 2017-01-13 11:12:53
Venus is an Earthlike planet excepting its atmosphere, closeness to the Sun and slow rotation. I think if we can fix Venus, global warming should not be a problem on Earth. I was looking up Halley's comet, it is next expected to come within 0.6 AU of the Sun in 2060, and it will pass within 1 AU of Jupiter along the way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halley%27s_Comet
Halley is the most active of all the periodic comets, with others, such as Comet Encke and Comet Holmes, being one or two orders of magnitude less active.[14] Its day side (the side facing the Sun) is far more active than the night side. Spacecraft observations showed that the gases ejected from the nucleus were 80% water vapor, 17% carbon monoxide and 3–4% carbon dioxide,[47] with traces of hydrocarbons[48] although more-recent sources give a value of 10% for carbon monoxide and also include traces of methane and ammonia.[49] The dust particles were found to be primarily a mixture of carbon–hydrogen–oxygen–nitrogen (CHON) compounds common in the outer Solar System, and silicates, such as are found in terrestrial rocks.[45] The dust particles decreased in size down to the limits of detection (~0.001 µm).[13] The ratio of deuterium to hydrogen in the water released by Halley was initially thought to be similar to that found in Earth's ocean water, suggesting that Halley-type comets may have delivered water to Earth in the distant past.
What do you think would happen if Halley's Comet or another comet like it were to hit Venus? As the article said 80% of the outgassing of Halley's comet is water vapor, and Halley's comet has a mass of 2.2×10^14 kg. I bet you much of that water vapor would stay in the atmosphere until it photo-disassociates due to the Sun, it can't rain out. This is 176 billion tons of water, and whatever hits Venus doesn't hit Earth. We can reduce the threat of comet impacts on Earth by steering comets toward Venus and thickening it water clouds.
#409 Re: Not So Free Chat » Politics » 2017-01-13 08:36:36
These controversies are just another part of the chaos that I predicted Trump would bring.
Trump's not bringing this chaos, how could he, he's not even president yet? Barack Obama is still President and is still in charge until January 20th, it is Trump's opponents who are bringing this chaos! It is only fair to judge a President after he is sworn in, not before. The People have decided they want Trump as President, all the sore losers who don't agree with this decision are the ones sewing the chaos.
The evidence so far is that this chaos will continue past the inauguration and for however long he serves. It is just in his nature to go defensive and grab at any straw to hit back against anything he perceives as a threat to his image as a winner.
What evidence? All I see is the main stream Media having a fit because their woman did not get elected President, and they are trying to cause as much chaos through misreporting as they can for Trump. It is a matter of power and who decides who gets to be the next President, they don't agree with the decision the American People made, they think they ought to be the ones who decide who the next President is, they groomed Hillary for power, they wanted Hillary to be the first female President and their plans did not come to fruition and so they are mad! That is all this is!
Trump is not a businessman, he is a self promoter.
Really? Why can't he be both? Seems to me Trump has been very successful at business and in promoting himself!
His own banks (who bailed him out instead of letting him go bankrupt, as a means to more profit for themselves) say that about him.
Do banks like to lose money?
He pays no taxes not because he is astute about tax law, but because he hires people who are.
Are you saying that Trump should have been a lawyer instead of a financier? A rich person hires experts to do the things they can't do themselves. Trump cannot be expected to be a lawyer, he did not go to law school, his specialty is in real estate and in making money, he hires other people who's specialty is in law! Do you hire lawyers or do you want to act as a lawyer yourself? Who do you think would do a better job?
He stiffed everybody in 6 bankruptcies-of-record not because he is astute about abusing the bankruptcy laws that way, but because he hired people who were.
Lots of people go bankrupt, I've been bankrupt myself! Do you think he went bankrupt on purpose? I don't! I think Trump wanted to make a lot of money, and he has not always been successful, so he declared bankruptcy, that is what the bankruptcy laws are for! Do you have something against bankruptcy laws? Do you prefer people go to debtors prison instead?
The self-promoter thing means he is liar,
Not necessarily, one can promote oneself without being a liar.
and we already have seen that. He is factually-challenged about nearly all issues, and then lies egregiously to people about all things, aided and baby-sat by that evilly-glib Kellyanne Conway, his propaganda master.
And yet he is President and a billionaire and you are not!
He promised laid-off blue-collar factory workers he would help them, and then stuffed his cabinet with the same greedy wall street bankers who have cost them their jobs by offshoring and automating everything.
How could they? He and they have not been sworn into office yet. Why don't you give them a break and don't judge them when they haven't even begun their jobs yet? I think you are being unfair! At least give Trump and his cabinet time to do their jobs before you judge them!
Not to mention causing the Great Recession with their mortgage shenanigans. Saving a few thousand jobs here and there by tweet-shaming is a drop in the bucket compared to the 50 million factory jobs his supporters need.
They didn't cause the recession, they were not in positions of power to cause the Great Recession. The Great Recession was caused by those in government, and they were not! Place the blame where it actually belongs!
He named a anti-vacciner to the health and human services position, and has ordered an investigation into vaccine safety, when all the science says the link between vaccines and autism is total bullshit.
Is it? Are you a medical expert?
The one and only paper that ever claimed such a link was long ago completely debunked and discredited, and retracted. All that does is demonstrate (1) how totally uneducated Trump is, and (2) that he values political advantage very far above any sort of objective truth.
There's more, but why belabor the point? The man is totally unfit to be president, and will do this country a lot of damage. While he is really a RINO, the party that selected him will also prove its unfitness to govern, because the various factions cannot agree, and will try to out right-wing-extremist each other. For the most part, they value political advantage far above objective fact, just as Trump does. And that is very dangerous in lawmakers as well as presidents.
Time to start a new conspiracy theory in a tit-for-tat scenario. Trump is the man who led the Obama-is-foreign-born conspiracy theory. But Trump is quite evidently a Russian spy. Look at his connections to the Russians. They tried to help him win, and among his investors are the Russian mafia who support Putin. He wants to cozy up to Russia, and destroy NATO, he already said so.
Go have fun with that!
GW
Gee I thought you liked Russia, up till now you were always arguing that we should not provoke Russia, that Ukraine should be neutral, that we shouldn't ratchet up tensions with Russia and risk a new Cold War, and now since you need a scapegoat to blame Hillary's defeat on, you've completely changed sides against Russia. how curious? I guess invading Georgia and Ukraine isn't too bad, but hacking into the DNC e-mails, that clearly is the last straw! Not that the DNC e-mails were well protected, not that they showed concern for cyber security, nope it is only when they got hacked by their supposed friends the Russians, that they got mad! As you recall I opposed Russia' invasion of Ukraine, and I recall arguing with you over that subject on this site, and suddenly now that the DNC e-mails have been hacked, or so you say, and you need something to blame Hillary's defeat on, you are on the other side of this issue. How strange. At least hold a consistent position!
#410 Re: Terraformation » Landmaking » 2017-01-12 11:14:39
Here is a cross section of a parabolic curve you can spin around the red axis, making a bowl shape. Toward the edges the g-forces approach Earth normal., as one moves toward the center, the g-forces diminish towards the native gravity of the world. A parabolic spinner for the Moon would approach these dimensions, a Martian version would be flatter. Now these things don't have to spin on a rotor, they could float in a rapidly spinning body of water. At this scale the edge of this parabola is moving at 70 miles per hour. I think a water flow of this speed is not unheard or impossible. he Martian centrifuge of this type would spin at the same rate but would be flatter than this lunar version.
#411 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Possible Lunar Lava Tubes per Grail probe. » 2017-01-12 09:23:15
Elements of a rotating habitat on the Moon
1. crater a little over 100 meters in radius
2. a dome to retain atmosphere
3. A tub to hold water
4. water jets to spin the water within the tub on the inside of the crater up to 70 miles per hour.
5. a parabola shaped bowl which floats on top of the surface of the spinning water.
The water provides the lubrication allowing the bowl to spin on top of its surface. the bowl rotates 3 times per minute creating 1-g of combined centrifugal force and lunar gravity at a certain radius.
This approximates the curve of the spinning bowl. rotating 3 times per minute, one would enter through an airlock at the bottom. This bowl is floating in a pool of water that is jetted around at a maximum velocity of 70 miles per hour at the ege of the parabola. the water supports the weight of the habitat, or alternately some other fluid may be used, such as mercury. Mercury could exist in a vacuum, so there would be no need to pressurize that.
#412 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Possible Lunar Lava Tubes per Grail probe. » 2017-01-12 00:33:55
I pretty much agree with you. However it does not hurt to have a "Plan B of centrifuged synthetic gravity", in case it is needed later. But I agree I would not try to design such a thing in detail, until it is needed. Just knowing that there should be a way to do it is enough.
The Moon has plenty of craters, just design a pressurized bowl that spins around inside of one. The best shape for this is the parabola. with that shape, lunar gravity and centrifugal force add up to push toward the inner surface of a parabola. As you walk away from the center the g-forces increase. A 100 meter wide parabola in a crater spins 3 times a minute, access is through the center.
#413 Re: Not So Free Chat » Election Meddling » 2017-01-12 00:29:39
FBI Boss Comey Won’t Say If Investigating Trump’s Ties to Russia but was just the oposite damming Hillary with lots of Email issues... With the proof coming from an ally, British ex-spy behind the Trump dossier was an FBI asset and yet Russia hacked Republican state campaigns but not Trump's - FBI head says. The history of Trump, Putin and the hidden history of how Russia interfered in the U.S. presidential election, There is no surprise that the Intelligence chiefs briefed Trump and Obama on unconfirmed claims Russia has compromising information on president-elect. So much Denial Amid hacking row, pressure builds on Trump to soften pro-Russia rhetoric and I hope more as He needs to go......
What is it you want? Another Cold War? Over Russia hacking the DNC? Stealing our nation's secrets that's one thing, but hacking the DNC and somehow causing Hillary Clinton to lose an election, well that means War! Your not Hillary Clinton, so what do you care? I'm over this election, how about you?
#414 Re: Not So Free Chat » Politics » 2016-12-26 16:35:28
I predicted that Trump would bring more chaos than Clinton, although both were great evils, as far as I was concerned. It's already coming true, and he hasn't yet been sworn in.
GW
How can you confirm your prediction if Trump hasn't even been President yet? Trump hasn't even done anything as President yet, don't you think you are jumping the gun a little? Yes I know you have preconceived notions about him, and you won't let anything he does sway you from your firm prediction that he will be a terrible President, but you could at least have the decency of allowing him to be sworn into office before you make judgments on his Presidency, as the Trump Presidency hasn't happened yet!
#415 Re: Not So Free Chat » Politics » 2016-12-26 16:30:58
This is the New York State Attorney General, Tom, not the Federal one...
Well then the President of the United States is out of New York's jurisdiction, as Washington DC is not in New York, and Donald Trump is not President yet, so he couldn't have done anything which is a conflict of interest, and he said he was going to dissolve his foundation, and your saying the New York Attorney general wants to prevent him from doing that so there is a conflict of interest? You know you can't charge someone with a crime before a crime has been committed don't you? And right now Donald Trump doesn't hold a public office, so as a private citizen he can do as he pleases! Also there is no Federal Conflict of Interest law that applies to the President of the United States George Washington after all di not sell his plantation before becoming President. The thing is, unless Trump is the worst president of all, his name stands to become an even hotter commodity once he is president, and one of hi main businesses is selling the Trump brand. I don't know how you avoid that. Do you know any other president that has avoided altogether profiting from his time in the White House? I think by that standard Hillary shouldn't have even been allowed to run, since she was capitalizing on her husband's time as President of the United States and she was using the Clinton name as a selling point for her candidacy, sounds like a conflict of interest to me, how come the New York Attorney General didn't bring that up?
#416 Re: Not So Free Chat » Politics » 2016-12-26 07:46:09
Well the kettles not black much as Trump Adopting Same Behavior He Criticized Clinton For during the past two years attacking rival Hillary Clinton as crooked, corrupt, and weak.
Wall street connection:
Big Donors:
News Conferences:
Family Ties:
CLINTON INVESTIGATIONS:Of course Trump Says' He'll Dissolve Foundation to Avoid 'Appearance' of Conflict but he is under investigation by New York State Attorney General Press Secretary Amy Spitalnick said that "the Trump Foundation is still under investigation by this office and cannot legally dissolve until that investigation is complete."
The federal whistle blowers act comes to mind as Trump’s conflicts of interest could conflict federal employees
The Office of Special Counsel (OSC) investigates reprisals against federal whistleblowers.
Now on the Obamacare subsidies for the even without Congress repealing as it insurers would still be required to provide consumers that financial help Trump could quickly doom ACA cost-sharing subsidies for millions of Americans
You know what, that Attorney General is working for Barack Obama until January 20, 2017, so I take it with a little grain of salt! Anything that comes out of Obama's government investigating Trump is suspect, considering none of those government organs are investigating Hillary Clinton! Once Trump is boss, they'll stop! Atually the Constitution says the President of the United States is immune to Conflict of Interest Laws, because every rich person with ties to the US economy has conflict of interest, there is just no way for a rich person to run for the Presidency without there being a conlict of interest. As was said before Trump is dissolving the foundation, if te Federal government stops him from doing it, what is it going to do if Trump stops funding it? If the foundation is not funded, it doesn't exist!, also in 25 days Trump will be President, and if Obama somehow stops it through legal action, there will be a lot of unrest in this country, and people protest their vote being taken away from them, and at that point it comes down to which side the Armed Forces support. Are they going to let Obama Stay President past January 20th because of some legal action he's conducting against Donald Trump? I've had enough of 2% subpar growth for 8 years!
#417 Re: Not So Free Chat » Politics » 2016-12-25 16:13:17
GUNS
— Allow people with concealed gun permits to carry weapons on college campuses.
Who does this affect? Does it affect they guy who wants to bring a gun onto campus and shoot up a bunch of people and who wants to go out in a blaze of glory as the cops close in on him? Is he going to say, "Oh drat, the rules say I can't bring a gun on campus, I guess I'll have to cancel my plan to shoot up a bunch of people cause the rules won't allow that!"
No gun free zones affect those people who bring a gun just in case for their own safety and who want to do it legally and don't want to end up in jail or dead! So Trump would allow those people who would carry guns for their own safety to do so, not those people who are planning on committing a crime with those guns.
One thing, this might affect, date rape. You have a girl and a boy, the boy insists on having sex, the girl says no, having a concealed carry permit means the boy better not press the issue, if he tries to force himself on her, he might end up with a bullet hole, whereas before you only end up with a rape victim, usually the girl. Terrorists don't care about rules, rules only restrict those who want to defend themselves from terrorists, rapists, murderers and the like.
LAWSUITS
— Limit how much money plaintiffs can win in medical malpractice and personal injury cases.
The question is, do you want healthcare to remain affordable? malpractice lawsuits drive up the cost of healthcare for everyone, so if your sympathy lies with the patient who' been malpractice on, what about the person who can't afford healthcare in the first place? if the government pays for it, then up goes the taxes, up goes unemployment and down goes economic growth. Everything has a price. If you want to keep the lawyers busy, somebody is going to have to pay for those lawyers!
UNIONS
— Enact right-to-work laws, which prohibit workplace contracts that have mandatory union fees.
— Restrict the collective bargaining powers of public employee unions.
the thing is, public employees salaries come out of your paycheck, the people they negotiate with don't really care, if the Unions want more money, the Administrators simply ask for more money from Congress and if congress agrees, hey raise your taxes. The people who pay for public employees pensions, and healthcare often don't enjoy those benefits themselves.
#418 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Possible Lunar Lava Tubes per Grail probe. » 2016-12-24 22:26:48
Tom Kalbfus wrote:RobertDyck wrote:Tom, it isn't practical to build a large rotating colony. The Moon is the Moon. Radiation and micrometeoroids mean the colony will have to be buried. But live in the environment you're in. On the Moon that means lunar gravity.
I would argue for planetary settlements. Mars has more gravity, atmosphere, 24 hour and a bit day, water ice, CO2, nitrogen, argon. The Moon is missing all that. Yes, the Moon has volatiles at the bottom of polar craters, but that's not much.
I would still argue Venus is a great opportunity: 90% surface area of Earth, 90% gravity, but also has 90 times atmospheric pressure. Venus has to be terraformed first, settled later. Mars can be settled now, terraformed later. And I still argue to refine/update Carl Segan's idea of terraforming Venus. He said to seed the clouds with algae. That would have worked when science thought Venus had 6 bar atmosphere. It won't work with 92 bar. My idea is genetically engineered microorganisms that convert CO2 into polyanhydride.
Did you want to get back to settling the Moon in lava tubes?
The advantage for the Moon is that it is closer and not as isolated, it has the surface area of Africa, so therefore it is like an 8th continent
This is what a bernal in a socket would look like:
http://orig08.deviantart.net/d087/f/201 … asw1ty.png
It is 250 meters in radius
Rotates 1.8913056305203754 times a minute
Tangential velocity is 49.514265621131855 meters per second or 110.76025774233146 miles per hour.
You start with a crater that is 500 meters deep and you shovel the rim back around the sphere after building the socket in which the bernal spins. You can have multiple circular tracks at various points around the sphere to evenly distribute the weight. this would be much like a train except there is only one car. The bernal spins for gravity.Tom, its a daft idea. For one thing it's the wrong shape for a moon based colony. If you intend to augment lunar gravity, then why not a carousel type shape? Another thing: why 500m in diameter? Is that an arbitrary figure? If the colony is to be spinning, you want it as compact as possible. The bigger it is, the more massive and expensive and the bigger the bearings. Thirdly, how did we get from Lunar lava tubes to giant, buried rotating colonies? Why do you think we would be interested in lava tubes in the first place?
Think through what your base-builders actually need and what they will realistically will have available. If lava tubes are the answer it will be because they give us something for free, something we don't have to manufacture.
Rotating space habitats are basically the same whether in free space or in the Moon, the vacuum environment is the same. A rotating space habitat in the Moon is about the same as a rotating space habitat undergoing acceleration in space. You can simulate any gravity that is above the local surface gravity. the reason why you have a 500 meter diameter is because you want low RPM for the inhabitants, you don't want them to feel a noticeable difference in g forces between the feet and the head, and you also don't want to induce nausea by rotating the habitat too rapidly, so you need a large diameter in order to rotate slowly and yet still produce 1-g of centrifugal force, and you want the 1-g so the Lunar inhabitants can go back to Earth, and so their children can develop normally so they can visit Earth, that would be the reason for doing this. A sphere is an accommodating shape, as there will be a region on the sphere where the gravitational vector and the centrifugal force vector will combine to produce a direction of down that is perpendicular to the surface of the ground. As you walk towards the South pole of the spinning habitat, you will notice the apparent force of gravity lessen till it approached Lunar gravity at the center. the greenhouses are below this under lunar gravity and artificial light.
Anyway you can choose not to rotate the habitat, but there may be a price of Lunar gravity adaption.
#419 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Possible Lunar Lava Tubes per Grail probe. » 2016-12-24 20:35:39
Tom, it isn't practical to build a large rotating colony. The Moon is the Moon. Radiation and micrometeoroids mean the colony will have to be buried. But live in the environment you're in. On the Moon that means lunar gravity.
I would argue for planetary settlements. Mars has more gravity, atmosphere, 24 hour and a bit day, water ice, CO2, nitrogen, argon. The Moon is missing all that. Yes, the Moon has volatiles at the bottom of polar craters, but that's not much.
I would still argue Venus is a great opportunity: 90% surface area of Earth, 90% gravity, but also has 90 times atmospheric pressure. Venus has to be terraformed first, settled later. Mars can be settled now, terraformed later. And I still argue to refine/update Carl Segan's idea of terraforming Venus. He said to seed the clouds with algae. That would have worked when science thought Venus had 6 bar atmosphere. It won't work with 92 bar. My idea is genetically engineered microorganisms that convert CO2 into polyanhydride.
Did you want to get back to settling the Moon in lava tubes?
The advantage for the Moon is that it is closer and not as isolated, it has the surface area of Africa, so therefore it is like an 8th continent
This is what a bernal in a socket would look like:
It is 250 meters in radius
Rotates 1.8913056305203754 times a minute
Tangential velocity is 49.514265621131855 meters per second or 110.76025774233146 miles per hour.
You start with a crater that is 500 meters deep and you shovel the rim back around the sphere after building the socket in which the bernal spins. You can have multiple circular tracks at various points around the sphere to evenly distribute the weight. this would be much like a train except there is only one car. The bernal spins for gravity.
#420 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Possible Lunar Lava Tubes per Grail probe. » 2016-12-24 14:48:06
I'm not sure why you would need artificial gravity on the moon. Crew rotation back to earth is practicable at any time and people can do 6 months at a stretch in zero gravity.
What percentage of the US population rotates back to the UK every six months? I think the idea is to develop the Moon as the "8th continent". Have houses, schools, white picket fences. If we can build an O'Neill colony within the crust of the Moon and rotate it, it would be almost indistinguishable from living on Earth or in free space. Once can set up solar panels along the sides of the bernal sphere encrusted in the Moon, the bernal can rotate within its socket. the socket can be made from a crater that is 500 meters deep and wide. Unlike the bernal rotating free in space, we don't need to move material off the Moon's surface to build it. If we rotate the bernal perpendicular to the Moon's gravity with the north hemisphere up and the South down, then most of the population would live in the southern hemisphere of the bernal with the resultant gravity, centrifugal force plus the Moon's equal to 1-g.
#421 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Possible Lunar Lava Tubes per Grail probe. » 2016-12-23 22:13:58
Antius wrote:Don't know what the purpose of a bernal sphere is.
The purpose of a Bernal sphere is to live in space. Not on a celestial body, but actually in space. The sphere uses rotation to produce artificial gravity so can have any gravity. The design intent is the outer diameter will produce 1G gravity, as you go up the sides of the sphere gravity will reduce. All designs for a Bernal sphere show greenhouses as inflated tube rings attached to the end of the sphere. Those greenhouses have smaller diameter than the sphere, so will have less artificial gravity. The whole thing rotates at the same rate, so a simple door connects sections.
Ideal is to build a Bernal sphere close to an asteroid field. Mine asteroids for materials, build the sphere as living space close to those resources. It was designed by Mr. Bernal, hence the name. A Bernal sphere has more usable area inside than an O'Neil colony, designed by Mr. O'Neil. An O'Neil colony is a cylinder with 50% area just window to allow light in. A Bernal sphere has much less window area. An O'Neil colony uses flat mirrors outside the windows, while an Bernal sphere uses curved mirrors to concentrate light through narrow windows in the sphere, then a "diffuser" in the centre of the sphere distributes the light to the inner surface. And O'Neil proposed a truly huge colony, while a Bernal sphere as proposed is still hung but not as big as an O'Neil colony.
Think of the Moon as a giant space station made out of rock. The Moon has more material to build things out of than the entire asteroid belt. The Moon is in space. Just as in the Bernal Sphere, you can use curved mirrors to concentrate sunlight through small openings in the Moon's surface.
If you buried in within the Moon's surface, you could use curved mirrors to reflect sunlight through the exposed windows and illuminate the interior just as in a free floating space colony. If it is located near one of the poles, Sunlight will be just as available. I'm thinking that we can turn this diagram sideways and bury it within the Moon up to the top window. We could then decide whether we want to spin it for greater than Lunar gravity or leave in non-spinning and have people live on the hemisphere opposite the exposed windows.
Probably burying this at the summit of a mountain would work best, because then we can dump the regolith we excavate down the sides of the mountain without blocking out access to Sunlight 24-hours a day, so we can have daylight hours whenever it is convenient for humans.
#422 Re: Not So Free Chat » NAFTA nation for lack of a better name » 2016-12-22 20:39:39
Your system of government is parliamentary, that means either one party has the government or another party does, it seems to me this would result in some widely gyrating policies, where each successive government undoing the work of its predecessor. Parliamentary governments don't often get deadlocked, they tend to plow ahead, which is why you jumped to a government run healthcare system while we squabbled about it in Congress between the House, Senate, and President. For stability we try to avoid radical change, one exception was the Obama Administration, most of the Republicans did not want to be called "racist" so they funded Obamacare! Every time Congress Opposed Obama, Obama would threaten to shut down the government and the Media would blame the Republicans, and so Congress acceded to Obama's demands. I don't put so much faith in government. I think government should only govern when it has to, when the result of not governing would be utter chaos, but a lot of things don't need to be governed or regulated. We need to get government to stop regulating much of our lives.
#423 Re: Not So Free Chat » Politics » 2016-12-22 20:28:25
So which are the false news stories.....
Gop to privatize Social security which was said numerous time during the campaign, or is it Republicans Seeking Immediate Cuts to Social Security? Not So Fast Under the Plan, Some Americans Would Eventually See Reductions of at Least 50 Percent, income earners (with yearly income over $78,000) older than 75 could see benefit reductions as high as 40 to 70 percent by 2050.
Electoral States won by Trump did not want 'Obamacare', or is it States Won by Trump Have Highest 'Obamacare' Enrollment with the most people selecting coverage all went for Trump in the presidential election: Florida, with just under 1.3 million selections; Texas, with about 776,000; North Carolina, with 369,077; Georgia, with 352,000; and Pennsylvania, with 290,950.
I don't recall that they were given a choice, if they wanted healthcare it had to be Obamacare, that is what government does, it restricts your choices. Obamacare states that healthcare must be thus, and so it is thus! The only choice people have under Obamacare is whether to be insured or not, and if not, they pay a fine to the government
Clinton's pay to play foundation sold access to her as secretary of State. His followers chanted - and still do - at rallies, "Lock her up." And in the final weeks, Trump vowed to "drain the swamp." , or Pay-for-Play Questions Continue to Swirl Around Trump Team
The latest controversy revolves around Opening Day, a recently formed Texas non-profit that lists two wealthy Texans, Tom Hicks Jr. and Gentry Beach, along with Eric Trump and Don Trump Jr. as its directors. Without naming its benefactors, organization paperwork says it is raising money for conservation charities by hosting a lavish event with "camouflage and cufflinks" attire in Washington, D.C. the day after the inauguration.
Your point being? Yes I know the Trump Children are into conservation. They are so rich, they don't need to get a job, but they need something to do with their time to keep busy.
#424 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Possible Lunar Lava Tubes per Grail probe. » 2016-12-22 09:52:31
I think an entire base can be built on the Moon telerobotically, it would be cheaper than sending a man in a spacesuit.
#425 Re: Not So Free Chat » Politics » 2016-12-22 09:49:11
Politics is where power comes from, people hold on to their ideas because that is where their power derives, whether such ideas work or not is besides the point. That is why democracies are superior to dictatorships and why dictatorships inevitably fail. Rome's decline began when it ceased to be a Republic.