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#4001 Re: Human missions » Newt Gingrich - Space President? » 2006-10-16 08:30:34

Your such an optimist, aren't you.

Perhaps it will take 50 years and $100 billion because government operates inefficiently. Suppose the Government posted a $1 trillion reward for anyone who can develop a 100 passenger scramjet that is able to reach orbit. If it is impossible, then the government gets to keep its $1 trillion, and if it is possible, then it is well worth the deficit. The US government can finance the added $1 trillion easily enough, and cheap access to space would expand the economy tremendously, it can be divided this way $400 billion first prize, $300 billion second prize, $200 billion third prize and $100 billion fourth prize. This will produce a number of compeditors in the scramjet busniness, they would each be competing for the top prize, but if they come in fourth place at least they would recoup their investment. Afterwards, each of the companies would be able to procure their own business without the need for further prizes, and all that added business would expand the economy as humanity expands into space. Well worth the cost I think, and it doesn't cost the government a thing until the prize is paid. Scramjets would make going to Mars alot cheaper too.

#4002 Re: Not So Free Chat » North Korea Blew the NUKE !!! DPRK tests the bomb ? » 2006-10-16 01:37:27

Saying that its the USA's fault for provoking North Korea doesn't change that basic fundamental fact. North Korea has 8 to 12 fission bombs, the USA has 8,000 thermonuclear bombs, isn't it obvious who would win a nuclear war between the two?

I didn't say that nuclear North Korea effort was US fault, I said that Bushs' threatening words and policy urged this effort.

Now, a large majority of South Koreans don't want any attack at all because they are in first line, and their parents and relatives live in North Korea.

Well then, maybe they can persuade their relatives to overthrow their government and not attack them or us. So far the North Korean Government is making them goose step off a cliff. North Koreans attack South Koreans, familial relations don't seem to stop their northern relations from doing so? North Koreans have proven a cruel enemy, just like their ancient ancestors, the Mongols. if the North Koreans are too afraid of their own government, perhaps they ought to consider what we can do to them if they attack us, and whether to obey such an order to attack us, they must know its national suicide if they do.

#4003 Re: Not So Free Chat » Not Forgiven - The Taliban » 2006-10-16 01:31:34

I'm talking about countries that attack us!

Did Iraq attack USA ?

Yes, when it Attacked Kuwait and threatened our oil supply and hence by extention our economy, that got us involved.

#4004 Re: Not So Free Chat » Not Forgiven - The Taliban » 2006-10-16 01:29:53

First of all i don't learn from school text books. I use History books,Internet and Tv documentary. Do you know what i also have? The ability of hindsight. While you were sitting there watching the hostage crisis. Did you know how much Carter supported the Shah?

Apparently not enough, Carter was more concerned about the Hostages than about reversing the Iranian Revolution. If I was President back then, I would have given those students one chance to release those hostages, just once chance, and if they didn't release them, I would send the Marines over to rescue them, and if the hostages were killed, I would declare War on Iran and launch a full scale invasion for this outrage. I would fight to win and to overthrow the Revolutionary regime, what ever follows the Ayatollah would learn not to mess with the United States. I would offer assistance in rebuilding Iran, but I would not try too hard in offering it, nor would I put US soldiers in disadvantageous positions with restrictive rules of engagment. They attack US soldiers, they will be punished. We hold quick and dirty elections, get a government elected under a constitution we impose on them just as we did on Japan, and if that regime collapses and another dictator rises to power, we serve notice on him that if he messes with us like the Ayatollah did, he could share his fate. I'm not overly concerned with nation building. My approach is more stick and less carrot. It turns out that the Muslim world doesn't respond very well to carrots, they interpret it as a sign of weakness and use it as an opportunity to attack our troops, that is the real lesson of the Iraq war, as far as I'm concerned. I'm always more concerned about our own troops than I am about the welfare of the conquered former enemy.

He didn't leave the middle east like you said.


Procrastinate then? Kick the can down the road and let the menace get bigger until you can no longer ignore it and dealing with it becomes costlier. You need to experience life more, rather than get it second hand through textbooks and the author's opinion about what is. You need time to form your own opinion as does every 18 year old. I do not hold the same opinions I did when I was 18 years old, and I don't expect you to do so either.

It is not your country. It is not your land. Neither is it in your continent. Amazing how you haven't learned from the disasters in South America.

South America is quite peaceful when compared with the Middle East, it seems most denzens of South America seem to prefer a condition of peace over a state of war, they don't have the relentless Jihad thats driving them to sacrifice their lives for that "piece of heaven" that their leaders are always promising them if they obey. I like the Western Hemisphere much better than the East. In the west, most wars are a dictator's idea, and people here don't enjoy fighting and dying as much as Middle East Arabs seem to do.

Oh poor innocent Lebanon, they didn't seem to mind Hezbollah occupying their country and ruling part of it without their permission, and they did not try to assert control either, but when the "Dirty Jews" defended themselves from attacks and occupied the parts of the country Hezbollah held, suddenly they were outraged by foreigners on their soil, soil they did not govern or contest with Hezbollah for. The government of Lebannon was responsible for that attack on Israel and the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers, this after Israel gives up land to the Palestinians. That you would so quickly swallow this slick Arabist propaganda just shows how young and naive you are. not that I blame you, many 18 years olds are this way, they learn with time, but by that time they are no longer 18 years old.


You make me sick.

Its fairly logical. Unlike you I remember who started the war between Lebanon and Israel, it was the Lebanese. Never mind that the Lebanese government protested its innocence, it really didn't try very hard to dislodge Hezbollah, it let them operate unmolested, and it even let Hezbollah participate in its own government. In terms of the United States, that would be like the US government letting Confederate legistators continue to vote in Congress and the Senate even as their states continue to rebel against the Federal Government. The Lebanese government allowed Hezbollah to continue to operate as a means of evading responsibility for attacking Israel. I'm sorry well reasoned logical arguments make you so sick.

Since Great Britian used cluster bombs to help win World War II, they have no place criticising the Israelis from using cluster bombs as well.

Using it in the last 3 days when Israel knew that it had to leave. Using it in farm lands where children are at risks?

Great Britian killed many German Children when it bomber Berlin, Dresden, and many other places, it was a fight for survival, just like Israel is fighting now. Aerial bombing is designed to soften up the enemy so they can't fight as well. How can you demand that Israel fight in a way that even Great Britian didn't use during World War II? If Great Britian is allowed to bomb German cities and kill German children while defending itself, why shouldn't the Israelis be allowed the same thing, is it because the Israelis are mostly Jews and therefore less worthy f survival than the Anglo Saxon upright Christian British?

Man i just wonder. Destroying two buildings in USA is a global outrage. Killing people in Lebanon is just a strategy.  roll

The difference is Israel was already at war, which was started bysomeone else, and we weren't Al Qaeda just attacked us literally out of the blue, and we weren't attacking Al Qaeda, we didn't have much to do with Afghanistan either, we minded out own business, and as the Soviets were no longer in Afghanistan we let the Afghan people mismanage their own affairs however they liked. Al Qeda was just mad because our ideas of equality, and religious pluraism was invading their region, and we weren't letting them kill enough Jews besides. they attacked us without provokation. Israel was just fighting a war it hadn't started, it tried very hard to get peace with its neighbors and find a satisfactory solution for the Palestinians, and what do they get? The get attacked, and then slammed by the rest of the world for defending themselves, they defended themselves precisely the way we would defend ourselves. There is nothing special about Jews that makes them especially deserving of being kicked and beaten up in the streets. Just because they belong to a religion you don't share, doesn't mean we shouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt that we would afford ourselves in self-defense.
But I imagine that this whole argument would do nothing but make you sick.

Reagan had a Cold War to fight, the Soviets were a real menace and he also had to defend Europe and your country too. We don't want to mess with the middle east, we gain no benefits from doing so other than preventing bad things from happening. We pay alot of money out for expensive imported oil, and that is a major proportion of our trade deficit this year. We are basically preventing bad from becoming worse, not reaping benefits and cheap oil from our involvement.

More bullshit. There was friendly relations with China. Treaties had been signed with the Soviet Union to reduce the chance of war. The SSSR was crumbling and EUROPE NEEDED NO DEFENCE. What is with you and defending europe. Your crazy.


Wow. I missed that. They're planning for partition then. I guess it is inevitable at this point. De facto partition if not formal.

I saw that on Newsnight in BBC. I was shocked,horrified and disgusted to see them being trained. I hope they suffer the repercussion soon.

What do you care? A Muslim is a Muslim. I don't read the Koran, so I don't give a damn about those petty 1300 year old differences in doctorine they are fighting and murdering each other over, it might as well be over which side of the egg to crack open. What I do care about is their tendency to attack Americans, both Shiites and Sunnies have done that, to me they are both the same, a black box that trains terrorists to kill Americans. The Kurds haven't bothered us so much, so I tend to favor them. if Iraq is partitioned, I think we should see to it that the Kurds get the largest and most valuable piece, as I don't believe in rewarding out enemies.

#4005 Re: Human missions » Nasa Shuttle, ISS Woes & To-Mars » 2006-10-16 00:46:03

No. Tom: I only meant that the next step should be travelling within the confines of Cis-Lunar space: between Earth and the Moon. By one or more space stations, I meant that we shouldn't imagine the ISS will be adequate once we learn how to survive and work in LEO. The number of orbital "waystations" around Earth and Moon will multiply, it seems to me, once we have done that.

Why should this be something NASA's doing? Private Enterprise should be constructing the Space Stations and building the next generation Shuttle. Government has had a rather poor track record in doing this, the ISS is way over budget. The main thing is what the space station is supposed to be doing? The main thing is that a space station doesn't need to be self-sufficient if it is always orbiting Earth, as it always can be resupplied, and it is always more economical to do so. If you build a self-sufficient space station, you might as well have it go somewhere interesting rather than endlessly circle the Earth. There is the space Hotel business for example. You know by now that I love prizes. NASA could put up prizes for the first 3 space hotels for example. The prizes will recoup the construction and development costs, or at least some of them afterwards, the companies that run them will have to find someway to make them profitable. Prizes can induce other companies to build economical orbital vehicles that can ferry passengers between Earth and the Space hotels, and once that is established, the companies will have to find someway to operate them economically, and if they did their vehicle development right, they should be able to do that. On the other hand, I'm not going to live forever, I'd like to see men walk Mars in my lifetime, if nothing else it will be a great morale booster. The key to colonizing Mars however is to reduce space trasportation costs. Encouraging the development of space hotels and orbital vehicles by private industry will help this along. What NASA has been doing up to now sure hasn't helped much.

#4006 Re: Not So Free Chat » North Korea Blew the NUKE !!! DPRK tests the bomb ? » 2006-10-15 08:59:48

The difference is that North Korea can actually roll those tanks over south Korea. Do we honestly want to see Seoul destroyed cause that is what will happen in the first barrage of the North Koreans they have that many artillery pieces aimed at the south. Ask the soldiers what they call all those border fortresses they guard. There nickname is the speedbump for them and for a very good reason too.

If the US stuck first are you sure they couldn’t take out those artillery pieces fast enough?

Okinawa, Seoul, Tokyo, Koyoto and Osan are all within range of dicatator Kim Jong il's Nodong-2 with a range of 2,000km (1250miles),
_38950715_n_korea_missile_203.gif
which means the USA would perhaps have to sacrifice thousands of people ( or maybe millions ? ) in this region, the DPRK has has an extensive biological and chemical WMD program with tabun, never agents and such. The American decision not to attack North Korea is based on much more than the North Korean nuclear deterrent—North Korea’s million-man army and its conventional capability to destroy much of Seoul, along with the strong opposition of South Korea and China to an attack. Iran’s situation is different—its neighbors are far less interested in protecting it, and its ability to wreak havoc in Iraq and Israel, while substantial, is less imposing than North Korea’s ability to devastate Seoul. The South Korean capital is only a few miles from the DMZ, so the DPRK could simply shell Seoul in response to any US strike and wreak mayhem upon US troops in the region and wreak havoc upon the South Korean people.

The destruction of Seoul is not the end of the World, but merely the beginning of North Korea's destruction. The US should respond massively to an unprovoked attack by North Korea, and I do not consider, not forking over billions of dollars to the North Korean regime as "provoking" it.

North Korea decision is simply, the USA is not going to meet with its government one-on-one, and if the North Korean leader has a temper tantrum about this and launches a missile attack, the USA will respond massively and North Korea will die. Now Kim will have to think carefully about this, will he attack if the USA doesn't meet his demands or will he not. The USA should simply wait and see what he decides and respond accordingly. I doubt he'll do what he threatened to do, that is launch a nuclear missile attack on the United States. Good old-fashioned Cold War deterrence will work, and if it doesn't that will mean the end of North Korea, South Korea can probably move in and take over what's left at this point.

#4007 Re: Not So Free Chat » North Korea Blew the NUKE !!! DPRK tests the bomb ? » 2006-10-15 08:51:43

LO
Now, ask the question: would had been North Korea so eager to get nukes if it hadn't been listed on the "Axis of Evil", watching what are the results of war at Iraq,
would Iran too ?

I still think that the bunch of chimps leading at White House have done the worst job any american presidency has ever done

Please, US citizen, get rid of him as soon as possible

Oh please. Leisure Suit Kimmy was trying to get the bomb more than a decade ago. For the same reasons. Clinton nearly went to war over it in 1993, then backed off and gave NK reactors, oil, food, and god knows what else, on the promise that the UN would watch and make sure there was no funny business. They failed. They are failing in Iran. And you know why, cause Saddam was able get away with stuff for twelve years. And now because the rest of the world fought so hard to not inforce it's own rules in Iraq, forcing us to do all of it, the madmen in NK and Iran think they can get away with murder.

I know Continental Europe hates it when Bush calls a spade a spade. I guess when you folks assume that if you can't see the tanks ready to roll over you, the world is all puppies and butterflies.

Ha Ha, which US army is mud trapped in Iraq, after the ousting of one of the most unpleasant regime, but which never was Al Qaeda's ally, but rather its ennemy, while Kimmy handcrafts ist nukkies ? and while Ahmadinejad plays with uranium enrichment as well as with Euro and US nerves ?

I'm still thinking that there were other means to oust Saddam without destroying iraq administrative infrastructures, without these so many losses of US soliers and such a massive loss of Iraqian lives, without being morally weakened with torture to the eyes of the word public opinion, without increasing the muslims rage at USA and occidental world. That's all wrong.
As well as the War at terrorism concept, that's not the Army job, it's intelligence services, police and special forces job.

I you call me a member of the axis of evil and I see you try to destroy another so-called evil, I'll hurry and seek for weapons, maybe I'll  think quite wise to shoot at you first before you do, therefore I think very stupid of SuperChimpBush to threaten Iran and Korea the way he did with le Axis of Evil chatchat.
Actions have to be silently prepared while smilling at what you think is your ennemy, if strikes must be decided. That's a basic tactical concept.

If North Korea strikes first, then the USA will strike last, and North Korea will never strike again. Saying that its the USA's fault for provoking North Korea doesn't change that basic fundamental fact. North Korea has 8 to 12 fission bombs, the USA has 8,000 thermonuclear bombs, isn't it obvious who would win a nuclear war between the two? North Korea doesn't even have missiles that can reach all our US cities, the ones that theoretically could reach left coast cities have failed in their test. North Korea will have to find some other way to deliver their 12 fission devices to us, besides missiles, those fission bombs are probably very heavy and bulky, and can't fit in a suitcase. Enough of the US will survive to wipe out North Korea finally and totally with our 8,000 thermo nuclear warheads. If I was the US president, I'd go ahead and call North Korea's bluff.

#4008 Re: Not So Free Chat » Not Forgiven - The Taliban » 2006-10-15 08:42:34

Wow.  I missed that.  They're planning for partition then.  I guess it is inevitable at this point.  De facto partition if not formal.

Frankly I'd give the pourous mountain regions to the Sunnies Shiites, and give the rest of Iraq to the Kurds, that's how I'd partition Iraq. I'd redraw the borders so that the ones of Kurdistan are all on flat terrain, so you can put up a wall and lay mine fields to prevent insurgents from sneaking through, with no rocky crags to hide behind they would be completely  exposed to machine gun fire as they traverse the mine fields. I'd also make Kurdish the official language of Kurdistan, and anyone caught speaking Arabic would be arrested on suspition of terrorist activities and expelled from the country, that way anyone who wants to sneak into Kurdistand and blow some things up, would first have to learn Kurdish, and then probably would end up speaking it with a bad Arabic accent, thus drawing the attention of the Police. Also Turkey and Iran could then dump their Kurdish populations into the new state of Kurdistan, thus cleaning out their Kurdish minority problems. They'll say, "You wanted Kurdish independence, well here you go - your independent! Now get moving to Kurdistan, Go!"

#4009 Re: Human missions » Nasa Shuttle, ISS Woes & To-Mars » 2006-10-15 08:28:15

The ISS exists and only recently been proven capable of being supported indefinitely by the existing Space Shuttle, as well as the Soyuz transportation system, for obtaining the essential coming-of-age experience we need to survive indefinitely in LEO--and contribute to the development of better transportation systems, leading eventually to operational Cis-Lunar space voyaging.
A direct-to-Mars voyage would be analogous to the Vikings' daring exploit on steroids: another one-off sensation which I hope to live to see ... but not the colonizing effort that we'll require one or more space stations for.

Are you refering to a cycling space ship? In otherwords park a space station in orbit around the Sun. The orbit period is the period of a Mars Orbit mutiplied by the period of an Earth orbit, so that at a given point in the cycling orbit for each orbit, the space station is in the vicintity of Earth, and at another given point in its orbit for each orbit, it is in the vicintity of Mars. In this situation, a CEV or Orion is propelled onto an intercept course with the cycling space station and then docks with it, the astronauts then wait out the out bound leg of the journey in this cycling space station, and when it approaches Mars, the Mars Hab undocks and vears off the orbit towards a Mars encounter. The outbound cycling space station then head further out into the Solar System in its elliptical orbit. Another Cycling space station is placed in another cycling orbit, this one encounters Mars first, an Earth Return vehicle intercepts it, docks with the space station, and the astronauts live onboard it until it approaches Earth, then it undocks the CEV and the CEV veers off to intercept Earth for an atmospheric reentry.

So basically what your talking about is two space station orbiting the Sun, one for the out bound journey and one for the inbound journey.

Presumable one space station has a lander hab already on it and an empty docking port for the Orion to dock with and the other space station already has an Orion docked with it and has an empty docking port for the Earth Return Vehicle to dock with. There is a problem with this geometery. The outboud space station ends up with an Orion CEV that doesn't get used again attached to itself, and the other space station ends up with an Earth Return Vehicle that has nowhere to go.

Alternatively you can use just one space station. that space station performs double duty. First it takes astronauts on the outbound leg with Hab. The Hab undocks and an Earth Return vehicle docks with it carrying the previous mission's astronaut back to Earth in a long about orbit that first carrys them further away from the Sun, then around then Sun toward Perihelion, and then climbs back away from the Sun toward Earth,where the Astronauts undock the CEV the previous crew left for them and veers off to an intercept course with Earth. With this mission Profile, each astronaut group spends as much time in space as they do on Mars.

#4010 Re: Not So Free Chat » Not Forgiven - The Taliban » 2006-10-14 23:15:39

For your information, I have been frusterated with the Middle East for longer than you have been alive. I see from your posting that you are 18 years old, and already you think you know everything. Well, I was 18 years old in 1985,

Then you must be going senile. Just because your older (i don't attempt to hide my age by the way. I put has march 88. Whats to hide?) does not mean that your wiser.

Many 18 year olds think that, and as they grow older and wiser, other 18 years olds who take thei place think the same thing. Much of what you have learned was in school and by reading books in history class. You learned about the Iranian hostage crisis from a history textbook, I actually live those years, I saw each news show, the video tapes of the blindfolded hostages and their captors day-by-day as it happened. I think I learned that particular episode better than you could of through a high school history book. When you live through history, you learn it very well.

I still do in fact, but for 22 years, I've seen the violence go on and on, and I lose my patience with it. Tinkering around the edges, I see hasn't solved anything. I'd like to get this problem off the table so we can concentrate our resources on more worthy things like space exploration.

I'm just goign to go an put an idea forward that could stop most of the violence in the middle east but upset you.

How about stop trying to shape middle east the way you want by supporting regimes and pressuring/attacking governments because they don't either like you or fit your profile of a "good government" ( government that isn't pro USA).

It won't work, it was tried by President Jimmy Carter, and I remember Jimmy's noninterference policy, and that resulted in the Iranian Hostage crisis, and it drove him out of office. When you a first world super power, you have to interfere. We learned that with the rise of Nazi Germany. The world we want to shape is one that's friendly to democracy, this policy doesn't always make us popular with other countries, but it is necessary to prevent resort to World War III.

Oh yes, when I was in high school, I was taught that Islam was a peaceful religion, all the Islamic violence since then and the 9/11 attacks have convinced my that this was all propaganda, that we were dumbly supposed to swallow.

Well i think your a bigger idiot in beleivng that 1.4 billion people want to kill you.


I look high and low for all the peaceful Muslims that supposedly exist, but tell me this, if they are so peaceful, how come we have to be so careful about offending them or even criticising them, they take offense so easily at the slightest cartoon or pronouncement of the Pope, and they respond with violence, even when they are criticised for their violent behavior.

Soo erm your angry because you can't criticizes Islam? lol. Thats just sad.


I'm sick of this B.S. I have a finite lifespan and it is already half over, I'd like to see this Middle East problem in my lifetime, it is a waste of our resources trying to deal with it,

WHO IS ASKING YOU TO DEAL WITH IT?

Procrastinate then? Kick the can down the road and let the menace get bigger until you can no longer ignore it and dealing with it becomes costlier. You need to experience life more, rather than get it second hand through textbooks and the author's opinion about what is. You need time to form your own opinion as does every 18 year old. I do not hold the same opinions I did when I was 18 years old, and I don't expect you to do so either.


USA is in the middle east because IT and IT alone wants to be there. So that the oil is in friendly pro USA hands. They try to shape the middle east into countries that they want. They pressured Syria to leave Lebanon (ignoring their illegal occupation of Iraq and the illegal occupation of Palestine). They congratuled the lebanese. They told them that it was a new beginning for them. What did the USA do when Lebanon was vicously attacked by Israel even parts that didn't have any Hezbollah supporters?

Oh poor innocent Lebanon, they didn't seem to mind Hezbollah occupying their country and ruling part of it without their permission, and they did not try to assert control either, but when the "Dirty Jews" defended themselves from attacks and occupied the parts of the country Hezbollah held, suddenly they were outraged by foreigners on their soil, soil they did not govern or contest with Hezbollah for. The government of Lebannon was responsible for that attack on Israel and the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers, this after Israel gives up land to the Palestinians. That you would so quickly swallow this slick Arabist propaganda just shows how young and naive you are. not that I blame you, many 18 years olds are this way, they learn with time, but by that time they are no longer 18 years old.

They supplied Israel with cluster bombs. Most were dropped during the last 72 hours when Israel knew they had to stop fighthing. They also blocked earlier attempts to stop the fighting. How can USA then have the audacity to say that they have the best intrest of Lebanon in mind? How can they say that to them when they backstabbed them so hard. Thats what you need to think about so get your head out of your ass.

Is it in the best interests of Lebannese to have their land as staging ground for attacks on Israel and thus subjecting themselves to Israeli retaliation. Many innocent Berliners died when Great Britian retaliated for the German bombings of London, those were cluster bombs. Since Great Britian used cluster bombs to help win World War II, they have no place criticising the Israelis from using cluster bombs as well.

and it takes away from our ability to properly explore space and colonize the Solar System.

OK. Your older then me. Then you should know. That Science. Espeically Space Exploration has little regard in the budget room. When USA wasn't in a major war and the realtions with the SSSR was good. Why did Reagon spend more then a trillion on the army? I'm sure if he took that money and spent it on research space exploration would have gone far.  But i doubt it. The money would have probably been spent on something else. Also the $300 billion budget could have come really handy to NASA. They could have probably funded Mars Expidtions. But it will never happen. The only thing space is to politicians is a publicity act. Thats it. They don't care.

Reagan had a Cold War to fight, the Soviets were a real menace and he also had to defend Europe and your country too. We don't want to mess with the middle east, we gain no benefits from doing so other than preventing bad things from happening. We pay alot of money out for expensive imported oil, and that is a major proportion of our trade deficit this year. We are basically preventing bad from becoming worse, not reaping benefits and cheap oil from our involvement.

We'll speak more of this later, i have run out of time for today.

#4011 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Machine intelligence » 2006-10-14 15:04:32

You don't expect to live to see this, I hope. Because you'll belong dead by then, if ever.

Why do you hope not to expect to see this? "AI slaves" could solve alot of problems in the World, they could build houses in the Third World even if people there cannot afford them, it doesn't matter if that happens because whether they can afford them would cease to matter and the AI robots would build them anyway. Alot of the open sewers in the world, the pestilience, the dieases would be fixed, and whether or not the people coule read and write, whether they had a 3rd grade education or a masters degree wouldn't matter, the robots would do everything. My guess is that once they equal human's mental capacities, they will still have a serville mental mind set as that is how they would have evolved. In an ideal setting, robots would build robots and the kind of robots we ask them to build, they would do whatever we tell them without a second thought. If we tell them to build space elevators, they will build space elevators, they will build enough robots to get the job done, maybe even billions of robots, they would tear up whiole mountainsides to obtain the materials, they would make many carbon nanotubes in parallel, and miticulously stitch them all together, no matter how much robot labor this requires, since robots build robots, this will simply eat up raw materials. If necessary they would taper the Elevator to make up for limits on material strength. I think billions of robots working together could probably accomplish this feat. If human intelligence cannot get us into space, maybe artificial intelligence can. This is the non-nanotech variety of course, on large scales I think this really doesn't matter. Robots can reproduce themselves much the same way as we build cars, only they will be manning the assembly lines instead of having sex.

#4012 Re: Human missions » Nasa Shuttle, ISS Woes & To-Mars » 2006-10-14 14:50:53

Welcome Heimdall. Nice to see someone new, the same arguments get tiresome.

Interesting name, in old Norse mythology Heimdall is the guardian of the gods who will blow the Gjallarhorn if danger approaches Asgard. He's guardian of the Bifröst Bridge, the bridge leading from the realm of mortals, Midgard, to the realm of the gods, Asgard. His hall was called Himinbjörg (Sky Mountain). An interesting name for a space fan talking about human access to space and the ISS. Do you live in a Norse country?

Whoa, Robert.  yikes  Didn't know you were a mythology buff.  Ah, your fantastic computer-like mind.  wink  I do envy it (in a good way).

some Americans claim anything American is good, anything non-American is bad. The obvious reaction to this may appear anti-American if you haven't read the anti-everyone-else rhetoric. Many of us would like to just "get along", but nationalistic arrogance appears to be a problem that just won't go away.

But there's also the (often my own) feeling -- discouragement actually -- that others are especially out now to make us wrong, wrong, wrong no matter what we do.  It's a bit confusing to go from most of life with the U.S. generally beloved and welcomed most of the world over...and now we're so universally hated.  :-\  And in the short span of 6 years it seems.  Sure, some of that is a result of things we've done or not done properly...but not all of it.  Frankly, some U.S. hatred has become fashionable; the "in" thing to do.  roll

As for Canada, it gave us William Shatner and Hayden Christensen.  That definitely makes it one of the best nations in the world.  big_smile

As for the ISS, I still say abandon that piece of junk and let it burn in LEO...let's get on to Mars.

I believe its a package deal, they hate us, and as an added bonus, they have us as their adversaries, they can't have one without the other. If they really want us as their enemies, then they should watch out! We should not give them the benefit of using us as their punching bag. If they hit us, we hit back! let them know, if they want bad relations, then the world is going to become a more dangerous place for them and us. All this effort for peace, the end of the Cold War, and what does it bring us, our former allies searching for new enemies to defy. If they choose us for an enemy, we should let them know that they can expect to pay a price for it, and that its not cheap rhetoric.

#4013 Re: Human missions » Nasa Shuttle, ISS Woes & To-Mars » 2006-10-14 14:43:52

You have to be careful of quick assessments of old arguments. When suggestions have been raised to utilize non-American space assets, some Americans claim anything American is good, anything non-American is bad. The obvious reaction to this may appear anti-American if you haven't read the anti-everyone-else rhetoric. Many of us would like to just "get along", but nationalistic arrogance appears to be a problem that just won't go away.

When reading assessments and assessments of assessments, particularly by America-hating Canadians with a tenuous grip, an implacable unwillingness to consider the political implications of engineering choices, and a fanatical loyalty to the notion that any idea no matter how bad can be done with "just a little bit less," you should be extra careful of staw men and crazy ideas used in place of accurate summaries.

Other countries have some decent hardware, Russia is presently the only game in town for large kerosene engines for instance, and they can definatly build rockets much more cheaply then we can since they don't pay their workers near as much. They will, however, require a pretty big investment to get back into the business of large rockets, which I think the "advertised" sum is fraudulently low. Then there is this odd effect, perhaps revulsion of America breeds infatuation with Russia, imparticularly with the mythical nonsense of their shuttle being "operational."

The cheif problems though is either giving American taxpayer money to foreign companies, or else entwining the fate of American spaceflight with the cooperation of foreign countries (like ISS), or both. Money that is spent on American companies bennefits the American economy, but American money spent on Russia does not. This becomes a serious political drawback as well as purely economical (nontrivial fractions of federal budget), since outsourcing NASA projects to Russia et al means a great deal of skilled Americans will lose their jobs that otherwise would not. Rockets are powerd by political support just as much as they are rocket fuel these days.

I think it is beyond reasonable argument that Russia is also in the business of obstructing America to diminish our position in the world, and so binding our fate in space to their whim is just not a good idea. They won't have a space program to speak of without us anyway, since they are broke, so its a "free" way to exert muscle on us. They have done it in the past over the ISS to extort money from NASA and used spaceflight as a political tool to help their friend and our enemy, Iran.

I have no problem with other countries supplying ancillary, non-critical hardware, but ultimately the majority of the NASA enterprise and everything critical to its functioning has to be domestic. Thats just the reality of the situation, nothing arogant about it. We don't need, and infact we need not to need other countries. Lastly, spaceflight is probably the quintessential and purest patriotic activity however, and there is nothing at all wrong with this. Why should we not be proud? This too is a political facet to consider, that "joint project with our partners _____" does not arouse patriotic feelings in the general population that pays for all this as much as "America did it."

We do agree on somethings, we are not always at logger heads over everything. I look for ways to get into space faster. I was very optimistic in 1985 about where we were going, and by 2006, it appears we didn't get very far, it is clear to me now that NASA must be doing something wrong to attribute this lack of progress.

I don't know why the Russians have to wear the black hats and be our adversaries, in those days following 1991, I thought Russia would finally get a chance to be a normal country, and not always the villain, but it appears the Russians are type cast into that role, and they don't know how to play any other. Russia, culturally is really part of the Christian West, they are Europeans, not Asians, yet they seek to undermine us when the Christian world is attacked from without. Anyone who wants to attack America always seems to get a covert or overt helping hand from Russia. We wanted peace, we got peace, but the Russians it appears don't want too much peace, they want some more conflict, they want to push the world closer to nuclear war without getting too close, they just don't want all this blossoming peace that we got in the 1990s, and now they are here to threaten us again. So should we scrap all the nuclear arms limitation treaties, shall we start up the bomb and missile factories once again? We were fooled once by Gorbachev, thinking he wanted peace. What shall we do when the next "Gorbachev" comes around? Get me off this merry-go-round! Why does it matter why the Russians rattle their sabre at us, it seems the "reason" doesn't matter at all, they just feel comfortable rattling their sabre and putting American's lives in danger by their proxies as they are too cowardly to do so directly. I'd rather dispense with the pleasantries and false comradery and get back to reality. Do the Russians want to live in peril of their lives, knowing at any moment, the missiles could fly and they would be dead 30 minutes later? I wish the World would settle in some peaceful state and we can all learn to be good neighbors.

#4014 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-10-14 14:15:47

LO

Also France played a role in giving refuge to the Ayatollah Khomeni, if the Shah was simply allowed to execute him, none of this mess would have happened. Iran has always been calling for our deaths. Do we have to wait for them to blow up one of our cities before we get rid of them?

That's wrong, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mossadegh, as you see, the West crushed an iranian democratic regime which wanted Iran to take control over iranian oilfields.

Says: Wikipedia doest have an article of this exact name.
I don't feel guilty about that. We were trying to contain Soviet influence in the 1950s and the opposite case occures in Venuzualia where we didn't attack a democracy and allowed the Venuzualians to elect their own dictator. What has that dictator done since? Collaborate with Iran, Cuba, and North Korea, we haven't done a damn thing to Venuzualia, yet the leader their, who got elected by democratic vote, has seen fit to help our enemies, and attempt to undermine the democracies in neighboring countries. if we keep out hands off, things still go bad. The Iranian government at that time was getting friendly with the Soviets. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. What happened in 1979 had nothing to do with that socialist government in Iran in the 1950s.

We did attack Iran, not the contrary.
You liked the Shah much better, but to the eyes of average Iranians, he has always been the Man of the West, a megalomaniac dictator set in order to deprive the Iranian people off the oil benefits, spent to forge the army of the "local western policeman"

And we can see how the Ayatollahs are so much more enlighted, with their head choppings and their constrained roles for women as babymakers and slaves to their husbands and fathers. As a male you probably don't appreciate the constrained role of women in that society, as a left wing liberal you just conveniently ignore it, when you can get a good America bash out of it. French society and Islam also clash, but it just bridles the French too much to make common cause with the Americans when fighting it. I saw the riots in Paris, and believe me my sympathies do not lie with the rioters. The French bash America, yet still they get their cars burned by unappreciative French Muslims, who thing the other French are infidels for not converting to their religion

Yes, France played a role, authorities may had hopes of juicy markets with a regime change, so what ? The whole situation went unpredictable, the crowd anger at the Shah regime overwhelmed all calculations, any hope to have a friendly democratic regime.

The Shah was Pro-Western, he didn't ask to be over thrown by religious fundamentalists, whatever it was they were fighting for in the Shah's overthrow, it wasn't increased liberty, that's for sure, they traded the lash of one master for the harsher lash of another, just like the dumb old Russians did when they got rid of their Czar.

Do we have to wait for them to blow up one of our cities before we get rid of them?

You reverse roles so easily... roll   Up to now, USA is the only country which have launched nuclear attacks.

We didn't ask for the Japs to attack Pearl Harbor either, just like you French didn't ask the Germans to invade and occupy your country. The Japs were cruel, they were harsh, they chopped off many heads, they tortured people, and they fought like fanatics, we nuked them, oh yes we did, but only because we had to. Surely you don't equate Japanese occupation of many surrounding countries with America's influence with the Shah's Iran.

The Iranians don't want to blow you up, don't mix with Al Qaeda, they just don't want to be threatened by any foreign power.

They say they do, they say, "Death to America!" all the time, they use American flags as welcome mats and they wipe their feet on them. I have trouble believing their intentions are peaceful. Maybe if they said, "Death to the French!" you'd understand much better.

Let Iran in peace and let them devellop their country as they can, modernisation and wealth  is the only issue to have a nation which will be eager to oust mollahs and send them back into the mosques.

I would love to, if only they would leave us in peace, but they don't.
I have better things to do than mess with Iran, but the Iranians leave us with no choice. We spend so much money on the middle east, and all because of a few trouble makers like Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, and Al Qaeda. If they would live and let live, not attack us or our allies, not even by proxy terrorists, then I would be glad to do the same.

I'd say right now the Second Cold War has already begun, I hope all the liberals are happy about it

By some ways, I'm a liberal, by other ways, rather a harsh competitor and I'm not happy on world disorders.
I observe that the agressive attitude is a failure, USA, with an agressive leadership of peoples which tought that with no force challenger, they could allow themselves anything, like starting an illegal war on lies thrown publicly to whole world, has a historically law audience and credibility.
Therefore, as a liberal citizen, nevertheless law, order and peace lover, I'd like some wiser leaders in White House and in the US parliaments.

Ignoring your own country's non-aggressive stance toward Hitler. I think Hitler could have used a little aggression against his country in 1936.

people who don't fear death won't fear nuclear retaliation

You always talk about extremists.
I guess lot of Iranians love their children too.

Those Iranians aren't the ones who matter though. We try to bring them democracy, but they don't help us, and so the extremist rises to the top of their society instead of staying in the insane asylum where they belong.

#4015 Re: Not So Free Chat » Not Forgiven - The Taliban » 2006-10-14 12:34:06

Your the embodiment of why people around the world hate America. I'm sure most Americans are nice (not counting those conservative rednecks). But that is little comfort to being who are dead because of USA actions. USA is worse then Bin Laden because atlest Bin Laden acknowledges what he does.

That is the extremism of youth talking. Historically, young people have often fallen prey to radical ideas, who do you think the people who overthrew the Czar and installed the Bolsheviks were in Russia. People without much life experience, didn't know how the World works, they impose their hastily thought out solutions on others, usually guided by a much older person who stays out of the fray and orders young people to their deaths for his radical ideas. Your right, I don't like to overturn society, so I am a Conservative. I think new ideas that young people find cool aren't always the best for society. I can do without all the violent revolutions that young people often support too, they tend to reduce my life expectancy. Bin Laden is evil, make no mistake about that. Don't let your history professor confuse you over what's what. We saved your country in the 1940s from Nazi Germany, we didn't have to. We could have given peace a chance and negotiated with Hitler, the Japs would have left us alone if we allowed them a free hand in Asia. This America is Evil fashion is the latest in vogue thing with foreign youth. All these people who've come into adulthood recently don't appreciate America's role in the world, and how it might have affected them. We've had ample opportunity to murder many innocent civilians. Do you think if we were Bin Lauden we would have liberated Europe rather than taken it for ourselves? That was a very rash statement you just made their, so don't be quick to condemn me when I may make some heated emotional statements from time to time, reflecting my frusterations from time to time, I'm not the only one who makes them, Mr. High and Mighty.

We wouldn't even know about Abu Ghraib,CIA renditions and Guantanomo Bay if there weren't press leaks. Thinking of how many other secret US prisons out there makes me shiver.

What's wrong, afraid you might end up in one of them? Do you plan on making attacks on American citizens? We don't have enough space in our prisons to arrest all the innocent as well as the guilty.

I forgot to mention. Has soon has USA is forced to leave Iraq. The first people to face the chopping block will be the Kurds. Then the Shiis. The Sunni might be the smallest of the big three groups in Iraq but they have a lot of support. Just because the Kurds used Israelies to train their troops (an act that will solidfy the anti kurd feeling in Iraq) doesn't mean they can take on the sunnis. Lebanon should be a lesson. When Hezbollah got rid of Israel and the Christian army in South Lebanon.

Oh I forget, the Sunnis are from the planet Krypton. The Kurds have alot of support to, and who are the bigger powers in the region, the Arabs who we buy oil from or ourselves? Sorry, I don't believe in your Super-Sunnis. as far as I'm concerned, both the Shiites and the Sunnis have American blood on their hands, I don't distinguish between them because they are both violent, and they murder each other and sometimes us over trivia in their holy book the Koran about things that happened 1300 years ago.

#4016 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-10-14 12:13:00

What do you call the Muslim Conquests prior to the first Chrisitian Crusade to retake the Holy Land?

Let me guess... a Jihad ?  big_smile

Of the two, I find Islam not to be much of an improvement, it oppresses individuality and enslaves humanity into rigid cultural roles divided by sex.

I agree on some points, but Islam, if it has stagnated for centuries was a progress when it establshed among barbarians and idolatric peoples. It brought the Greek science and hydraulic gestion knowhow in countries where exhausted lands had been deserted by the populatons.

Does Moscow want Iran to have the Bomb? Do they or don't they? Do they want North Korea to have the bomb too? Has Moscow lost all interest in curtailing the spread of nuclear weapons?

For North korea, it seems a little bit late, they are proving they have the bomb.
For Iran, you just can delay, they want it , they will have it, there's nothing you can do, you bomb, they throw waves of terrorists. The only thing left is to deal with an nuclear Iran
For West, that's paying the price for having support Saddam's war at Iran which made 1.5 millions iranian victims.

Which is the price they paid for taking Americans Hostage in the US Embassy in Tehran, and then becomeing our enemies and chanting death to America and supporting terrorists against us. Before those 1.5 million Iranian victims, they made us their enemy, and thus we supported their enemy. Why shouldn't we? They gave us no reason to do otherwise. Also France played a role in giving refuge to the Ayatollah Khomeni, if the Shah was simply allowed to execute him, none of this mess would have happened.

It doesn't pease me neither, but that's the way it is.
Best for everybody is that Iranians are sure that no power wants to hold a hand on its oilfields. With the actual US administration on, they hurry on nuke bombs, for sure.

I don't give a damn what the Iranians do with their oil fields, but if they use that oil revenue to help finance nuclear bomb projects, that is another thing. Iran has always been calling for our deaths. Do we have to wait for them to blow up one of our cities before we get rid of them? Russia is playing a role, playing interference with the UN as Iran develops its nuclear weapons and then makes good on its threat to kill Americans. The North Koreans already threatened to launch a nuclear missile at us. I'd say right now the Second Cold War has already begun, I hope all the liberals are happy about it, that seems to be what they wanted all along. The French Government is going to have a field day with this New Cold War, they can play one side against another, a dangerous game, and then someday there will be a miscalculation and a full scale global thermonuclear war will occur and France will be engulfed in it too, all because some in the UN wanted to play a game of balance of powers and they wanted to democratize the spread of nuclear weapons so everyone can have some, and it only takes one nation to set the fire going. Religious fanatics with nukes, people who don't fear death won't fear nuclear retaliation either, so the only choice we have is to destroy them if they get some. Is that the world you want?

#4017 Re: Not So Free Chat » Not Forgiven - The Taliban » 2006-10-14 11:09:26

Hey Tom i have never said this to anyone to this forum even though i came close to so many times in heated debate.

But your the biggest idiot ever in my opinion.

Turn Iraq into Kurdistan? Move Sunnis and Shiis from there. Adjust the borders of Iraq. Jesus Christ your an idiot.

And what's your solution? I haven't seen you offer any. At least I offered a solution what would end the conflict.

Right now the only reason why USA is still in Iraq is because only a few sunnis and Shiites are at war. If Bush ever thought of doing what you suggest (seriously though are you 12 or something?). Not only would Iraqis stop targeting each other. They would attack US soldiers more often,they would get support from ALL of their neighboring countries and the EU would be forced to take a step to stop USA.

For your information, I have been frusterated with the Middle East for longer than you have been alive. I see from your posting that you are 18 years old, and already you think you know everything. Well, I was 18 years old in 1985, I was more optimistic in those days, I believed peace was a two way street, I still do in fact, but for 22 years, I've seen the violence go on and on, and I lose my patience with it. Tinkering around the edges, I see hasn't solved anything. I'd like to get this problem off the table so we can concentrate our resources on more worthy things like space exploration. Oh yes, when I was in high school, I was taught that Islam was a peaceful religion, all the Islamic violence since then and the 9/11 attacks have convinced my that this was all propaganda, that we were dumbly supposed to swallow. I look high and low for all the peaceful Muslims that supposedly exist, but tell me this, if they are so peaceful, how come we have to be so careful about offending them or even criticising them, they take offense so easily at the slightest cartoon or pronouncement of the Pope, and they respond with violence, even when they are criticised for their violent behavior. I'm sick of this B.S. I have a finite lifespan and it is already half over, I'd like to see this Middle East problem in my lifetime, it is a waste of our resources trying to deal with it, and it takes away from our ability to properly explore space and colonize the Solar System. We have to pay attention to this fanatical religious garbage instead. I'm tired of US soldiers getting killed by these fools, who don't even value their own lives. My ultimatum is that they should bring their own house into order, or we shall bring their house into order in a way they don't like. I've lost my patience with these murderous fanatical fools and the public that supports them. If they are going to murder our young men, some of them about your age, then I find it fitting that they should pay a grievious price for doing so. We should not reward them and make future generations of our enemies think that killing American Soldiers is a good idea. We have spent billions of dollars on these people, either they start bringing their country into a democratic order, or perhaps maybe we should scatter them. The Kurds so far seem to be the only ones to appreciate our efforts to bring democracy to this part of the world. The other factions seem to want dictators of one stripe or another. I feel that if they want to live under dictators, they can live under dictators in another part of the world, a part that we did not liberate. Our soldiers did not fight to create kingdoms for petty tyrants and religious magogs. If the people will not support democratic rule, then they are the problem. People who would rule by terror over their neighbors should be kicked out of the country and not get any of the land we liberated.

You seem to focus on the fact that they hate and attacked USA. How come you don't mention the things USA and US supported Allies did BEFORE 9/11. OMG SHOCK HORROR!!!!! Yes there was violence in the middle east before 9/11. I'm not just talking about Israel here. Things like Clinton attacking a medicine factory just because he got caught having sex with an intern. Guess who died? Just innocent Muslims who needed medicine.

You are so young and naive. Young people think they got all the answers. Some of those answers have been pretty disasterous for world civilization. I remember for instance that it was college students that took over the US embassy in Iran, you probably only read about this in your history books, but I remember this personally, I saw it on television as it happened and you weren't even born yet.
I was around way before 9/11, you mostly read about those times in your history books, well I lived them, so there's no need to lecture me with your high school education. Its not your fault for being young, we all take our turns at it, and someday you'll be as old as I am now, perhaps then, you'll better understand the frustration I have.

#4018 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-10-14 09:25:53

LO

Back at the time of the Crusades, Islam was rather violently introduced to another religious institution, Christendom, which had not only throroughly incorporated this same idea of holy war but had its own armies.  Christendom was a united entity then in the same way that Islamist nationalists and other extremists are calling for today. It was an aggressive major power, willing and able to force itself upon innocent people for no other reason than that it was entitled, taking both what was God's and what was Ceasar's.  And it remained that way for several hundred years.

Here, in France, southern populations still have some rememberance of the the middle ages crusades at their ancestors led by northern France barons, the first crusades have been led by christians against Cathars christians, which main "sin" was that didn't recognised the roman catholic pope. This to say that the first real crusades were led by so-called christians at other christians far before crusades at Muslims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar
Before, there had been wars and slayings against aryanist christians which "sin" was that they believed that Jesus was just a holly man, a prophet, but in no way  "Gods' son"

What do you call the Muslim Conquests prior to the first Chrisitian Crusade to retake the Holy Land? You know the ones where Islam started as a small Cult and spread to the Whole of Northern Africa, the Middle East, and Spain? They used armies and the Natives did fight back. Before their was Islam, their was Christianity. Of the two, I find Islam not to be much of an improvement, it oppresses individuality and enslaves humanity into rigid cultural roles divided by sex. Freedom of speech is sharply curtailed, and democracy is undermined by radical clerics seeking power for themselves and using the Koran as their justification. In France you have modernism, style, and culture; in Islam culture has undergone a deep freeze, its like history is frozen, people wear the same clothes and styles as their forefathers and their fore fathers, every aspect of life is rigidly defined with a rigid unbreakable mold for women and another one for men. New ideas, unless the further a military cause to spread the faith, are rejected.

It is interesting that the Russians are suddenly so terribly concerned about the Iranian people, especially considering how the leveled Grozny in Chechenia. Why is the murderer of hundreds of thousands of Chechens suddenly concerned about the Persians.

Don't stay with that all-american point of view, study your challengers' point of view, otherwise, your analyses will be a whole misunderstanding, leading to failures such as the Iraq war results, or deep mistakes such as being an ally of Pakistan which harbours the most anti-american islamist terrorits' nests and collaborated in spreading nuke technology toghether with Kim's Korea and Iran.
I think that you mix everything with some kind of a deeply uninteresting black or white short sighting. That's the point with many average US citizens, your country is continental wide, and most of Us citizens, if able to draw the US map, what I couldn't do, are unable to draw quite a correct world map, what I can do.
It's a local balance policy from Moscow, Shiite Iranians are traditionnal ennemies of the Al Qaeda's sunni muslims which support chechen war at Moscow.
Moscow's attitude is also reacted by the US bases spreading in the southern former empire in order to surround and to aim a grab on the world's main oil fields.

Does Moscow want Iran to have the Bomb? Do they or don't they? Do they want North Korea to have the bomb too? Has Moscow lost all interest in curtailing the spread of nuclear weapons? Do local concerns override their global ones of staying alive? Russia gave up the Soviet Republics freely and of their own choosing, they have no say in whatever alliances these new countries may choose to have.

What is more important, maintianing control of their ex-empire which they gave up, you know the French have a saying that you can't have your cake and eat it too, or do the Russians want to avoid a global thermo-nuclear war with us where they might get killed? You know two can play at this global proliferation game. The United States can spread nukes to countries that Russia doesn't like, and then when nuclear weapons are all over the place, someone may lose control of a few, some cities may go up in nuclear fireballs and then comes the retaliation, and all the nukes will get used up in a chain reaction of retaliation. But preserving their ex-empire is more important to typical Russians than their personal survival. If a country is independent, then Russia can't go around telling it what to do as if it was not. Russia ought to mind its own business, its making the World a more dangerous place by proliferating weapons to our enemies by blocking sactions. We can give nukes to Russia's enemies as well, would it like us to do so? This is the path to World War III. I for one am not fooled by Russia's strategy to nuke us by proxy. If the Iranians and North Koreans nuke us, then I blame the Russians and the Chinese, since they used their power at the UN to thwart all attempts at stopping these rogue states from acquiring these nukes, as such I consider both Russia and China as our enemies, they are working to kill millions of US citizens by proxy in letting our enemies develop nukes! If Peace means war by other means, I'd rather go back to the Cold War if you don't mind. I don't like any of this pretending to be friends with the Russians and the Chinese when by their actions, they show themselves to be nothing of the kind.

#4019 Re: Not So Free Chat » Not Forgiven - The Taliban » 2006-10-14 01:30:16

Imagine trying to sit down at the negotiating table with a man who is trying to kill you with a machine gun.
What if we send Condaleeza Rice over and the Iranians simply take her hostage just like they did with a bunch of other American diplomats in 1979 as was Iranian tradition?
What if we are just sending our diplomats to their deaths by having them meet Iranians who shoot them as soon as they arrive?
Iran has already established that they do not respect diplomatic protocol with their 1979 hostage taking at the US Embassy. At least we might wise up a little and not send more diplomats over when they did not respect the first bunch. There are consequences to burning bridges after all.

#4020 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-10-14 01:22:50

It is interesting that the Russians are suddenly so terribly concerned about the Iranian people, especially considering how the leveled Grozny in Chechenia. Why is the murderer of hundreds of thousands of Chechens suddenly concerned about the Persians. Russia certainly is not an Islamic country. Russian troops happily murdered thousands and thousands of Muslims in Afghanistan, and all of the sudden Russia considers itself the protector of Islam? I wonder how much the Russian People would like to fight World War III with us over Islam? Imagine the hundreds of millions of Russians and Americans dead that comes from a nuclear war springing from Russia protecting Iran as it develops an independent nuclear weapons capacity, while the USA tries to destroy such. Do the Russians truly feel safer in a World with more nuclear powers, or are they just a bunch of knee-jerk anti-American idiots willing to take it all the way to global thermo-nuclear war?

I think we are more interested in stopping the spread of nuclear weapons and are more willing to risk a nuclear war over that than the Russians are willing to risk nuclear war with us white trying to spread them, this happened before when they tried to spread nukes to Cuba. I think we should call the Russians bluff.

#4021 Re: Human missions » Newt Gingrich - Space President? » 2006-10-14 01:10:07

It solves a "chicken or egg" problem of getting into space however.
But what if the result adds value to the economy. What if instead of a prize for a Mars mission, we had a prize for building a scramjet spaceliner capable of lifting 100 passengers into low Earth orbit, bring them back safely and do it again within a 24 hour period? Say we had the same prizes for accomplishing this: $60 billion, $40 billion, and $20 billion. In this case the prize money would act as a "sweetener" the companies that compete for this prize and win would end up with a valuable asset which they can capitalize on once the prizes are won. If their are three prize winners, then we have 3 compeditors competing with each other to build passenger scramjets, and once the R&D costs are recovered throgh these prizes, the rest is a scramble to sell tickets to paying passengers. Having mass space travel is added value to the economy, so the awarded prize wouldn't be entirely inflationary, as the number of goods and services in the economy will increase as a result of the opening of the space frontier. What the prize system would do is to light fire under their bellies.

Low Earth orbit is "halfway to anywhere" so if you reduce the cost of that first leg of the journey, you reduce the cost to anywhere else in the Solar System.

#4022 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Machine intelligence » 2006-10-14 00:56:15

Things are expensive because of their labor content. Gold for example is around $500 and ounce more or less, because each ounce requires a certain amount of labor to extract it from the ground. A certain number of people need their salaries paid to extract this rare metal from the earth, and that is why its expensive.
But what if you replaced all the human laborers with robots?

You might say, then you will need humans to maintain and repair those robots.

and I say, not if those robots are a perfect substitute for humans, in that case any human job can be roboticized. That is an ideal situation.

Less than ideal would be to have robots replace humans mostly, in other words the number of humans and salaries paid to maintain the robots is less than the number of humans and salaries the robots replace. In this second case AI Robots act as a labor multiplier, but you only pay the humans. There has been a general trend in the economy where automation replaces human labor. Automation can make all kinds of goods and services cheaper by replacing the human labor that ordinarily goes into the creation of these goods and services, and like anything else, space travel can be made cheaper with automation as well, including the mass production of buckytubes.

But buckytubes is only one way to make a space elevator, the other way is to use kinetic circulating pellets to transfer force from the ground and distribute it throughout the space elevator. The space elevator pushes down on the circulating pellets slowing them down as they travel upwards and speeding them up as the travel downwards. The Earth then turns around this stream of pellets at the bottom and send them back up for another go. Space elevators of this kind don't have to stretch all the way to geosychronius orbit, but they can, and if they did't it would make sutting things into orbit and taking them out again much simpler.

I think their are two different approaches to making a space elevator:
1) One approach is to make a super strong material such as buckytubes and use centrifugal force to hold the elevator up against gravity.

2) the other one requires the development of high temperature superconductors that are cheap to manufacture in order to make this space fountain elevator practical.

If one is trying to build a space elevator, it might be a good idea to try both approaches at the same time, or you could even build a space elevator that is a combination of the two. If the elevator material isn't strong enough to reach the surface of the Earth from Geosynchronius orbit, you can build it instead so it only goes part of the way, and have a space fountain elevator bridge the gap with superconductor propelled pellets.

#4023 Re: Human missions » Newt Gingrich - Space President? » 2006-10-13 08:00:20

I have a simple question:

How much does it cost to print $120 billion in US currency?

I say, it doesn't cost the US a whole lot, it is only paper until someone can get their hands on it and spend it.

So what if the US government simply states that the first prize is $60 billion, the second prize is $40 billion and the third prize is $20 billion. The money is printed out and put in a vault, and the government announces that its here for anyone who wins one of these prizes.

If what your saying is true Clark, then these piles of money will simply gather dust and the US government doesn't have to account for it, it doesn't have to sell bonds, or raise taxes or cut other programs if no one collects. The money will just sit there out of everyones reach unless they go to Mars.

I find it a win-win situation. Printing the money doesn't cost all that much, it is 1,200,000 One Hundred Dollar Bills sitting in a vault gathering dust, costing the US government only what it costs to print these pieces of paper that say One Hundred Dollars on them. If some one wins, then the US government pays and only then.

As for what to do with the spaceships after the prize is won, perhaps the companies that build them might consider this question and try to make economical vehicles that could be used for other purposes. I really don't think the US Government has a clue on how to make things economical.

And Marsman, if you think it will take 100 to 200 years, what the heck are you doing here. Obviously space travel is a waste of time and resources if that is true.

#4024 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Machine intelligence » 2006-10-13 07:43:44

Maybe your right about nanotechnology not working. From my vanatage point all I see is one group of experts saying they will work and another saying they won't. I do know that nanotubes are ceing created in bulk quantities, so the trick may be simply seleting the right sizes efficiently, now a full scale mass production method may be more efficient than laboratory synthesis. Artificial Inteligence might bring down the labor costs too.

#4025 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Machine intelligence » 2006-10-12 17:17:42

The trick is in building the first one. I don't know about a universal Assembler, but surely there are assemblers that can build one specific thing and also self-replicate.
Seems the best way to start is with biotechnology, if you can manipulate biotechnology to produce certain things within living cells and then divide and produce more of those things, it would be a start. Perhaps molecular machinery of living organisms can be persuaded to produce nanotubes of uniform sizes.

I think some people are the self appointed Dr. No, they litrally can't conceive of any technology that is anything more than a little bit more advanced than our own, so whenever someone suggests something fantastic like space elevators, their immediate gut reaction is "no, this must be impossible, must think up a good reason why."

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