New Mars Forums

My thoughts on the Mars vessels for landing & return to Earth. The Lunar Lander concept with the engines high on the vehicle is the most workable concept that I've seen for landing in rough areas. This comes at a weight penalty of additional engines, but protects the vehicle from exhaust debris damage on landing. I suspect the first ones will need to land this way without prepared landing pads, and could be considered one-way transporters. Have large and adequate legs to avoid tip-over. Maybe the freighter vessels could be so designed and executed?
Musk has already commented that the first freighters would be one way trips.

A final comment here: I had the opportunity to visit the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna, and the Naturhistorisches Museum across the plaza. This was only a partial revelation of the residual riches of the Habsburg Dynasty. I saw a few of the "collectibles" that had been acquired by the emperors and specifically Franz Josef, grandson of Maria Theresa. The natural history museum has everything from some Moon rocks through several of the largest gold nuggets ever found, weighing in at nearly 70 kg each. The art museum has one of the world's great collections of old master paintings and possibly the greatest item being THE  unique Benvenuto Cellini Salt Cellar (currently insured for $60 million). It's the sole art work in gold remaining from this medieval master goldsmith. It's sitting in a case in a room where not very many folks visit--particularly the average tourists from Asia. The Coin collection--which is only partially on display--is "only" the 5th largest and valuable in the world.

The point I'm making here is that these things were all the personal property of the Emperor of Austria-Hungary. I  sat in a small room on the sole stool and studied the 8 Rembrandts (average value of a Rembrandt is $20 million) hanging on the walls. Rooms filled with acres of Rubens paintings. I tried at the time to get an estimate of the true value represented by the contents of these two monumental buildings--both of which are themselves priceless.

The total value of everything is beyond belief. I know that the fortunes of Gates, Bezos, and Musk together couldn't buy what was there. Then there's the Queen of England--whose wealth is staggering. The treasures of the Vatican aren't known but are fabulous.

Thomas-
I never stated a preference for cheap and barely capable. At this point, ANYTHING WE SEND will be barely capable.
I disagree strongly about reliance on robotics and earth moving machinery (regolith moving machinery?). I have considerable experience, as does GW, in operation of farm-type machinery. Doing something on another planet for the first time requires human input, and no amount of sophistication can overcome the unexpected. That's because it IS unexpected. I have personally owned and operated 5 different tractors with front loaders in various sizes and degrees of sophistication, Ranging from a small Deutz 3 cylinder diesel up to and including a John Deere 6400 which had a 1.5 ton working capacity front loader.

Even as an experienced and careful operation, it was easy to get stuck and required that a second tractor be used to rescue the stuck one. I envision large rocks buried in what from the surface appears to be sand. A robotic tractor would probably destroy itself in an attempt to push through, or back up and hit the obstacle at a higher speed in a lower gear range.

This is a trap for the unknowing and overconfident.

Re kdb512 post #42...

I again wish we had a "thumbs up" postable icon here.

I always fall back to the immortal words of that great American philosopher, Forrest Gump, when dealing with deliberately obtuse individuals: "Stupid is that Stupid Does."

Re RobertDyck's comments in the quote about the Russian engines being shut down. SpaceX seems to understand the waterhammer effect when throttling down to transition Max Q. Falcon Heavy has 27 engines and has flown successfully 3 times with no RUD incidents.

(th)-

Re: your post #105; I need to give this a bit of thought before making such a commitment.

I did a bit of research on the Bobcat website last night, and perhaps we should include 2 excavators (tracked backhoes). They're heavier and more bulky than the front loader Bobcat skid-steer units, but these would allow excavation of habitat shelter trenches more rapidly and effectively than front-loader units. These would also be much more effective for moving large rocks and preparation of a landing pad for the permanent base. These would also make digging into a hillside practical. I wasn't able to find , in my rather quick examination of the website, any weight details for any of the equipment. I suspect the standard Bobcats would be around 7,000 pounds and an excavator double that weight.

The very worst people to import to Mars would be Politicians. They would ruin everything.

Part of getting there safely is the responsibility of the flight planner.

The current ground based assets aren't really that useful. They need to be transponders which can be interrogated by the radar of the landing spacecraft. Sufficiently powerful and fast response times.

Sierra Nevada Space Corporation has also developed a system of inflatable habitats which are suitable for incorporation into a commercial LEO space station. I suggested their designs in the parent thread to this one.

Use of Habs: I am in agreement with others, Louis in particular, that initially we will use inflatable habs for short term living quarters, but they lack adequate protection from various forms of ionizing radiation, and particularly for solar flare activity.
I'm considering having some prefabricated rigid structure as am outer "hard shell," so they can be either partially buried or covered with regolith.
The Tuna Can style Habs are not the current basis, nor is the Bigelow style, for my base plans.
I don't know how many folks here recall something called a Quonset Hut, which was a rapidly erectable half-cylinder that was made from corrugated steel? I'm thinking of a similar structure made from composites; a structure very strong ad will be supported internally by having an inflatable habitat inside. I envision a trench excavated which would allow partial burial, and then the whole works covered with at least a meter or more of regolith. This is why I included experienced heavy equipment operators in my mission planning. The rigid composite structures would be made from high density linear polyethylene, reinforced with carbon fiber filaments. These structures could be connected by tunnels for ease in moving from structure to structure without need for any EVA activities by the crews. This would visually create a series of mounds, the southern sides which could be the basis of a small solar panel array. One of these would be larger by sheer necessity as a shop for inside storage and maintenance activities for the rovers and excavation equipment. This is a lot of construction type work, hence my 2 construction/maintenance triads. Not everything can be done robotically as Louis seems to project as the way things will be done. Doing construction is a very "hands on" activity.
Each module will have it's own outside airlock at one end and an second one exiting to the connecting tunnel system at the other end.
An advantage to this system is radiation protection. The outside airlocks will generally be used for occasional egress, and most of the time travel between modules will be by means of the tunnel.
Sanitation systems will be in a smaller module with toilets and shower facilities. There will also be a module with a dining and cooking facility, as well as recreation and exercise equipment. Each crewperson will have a small personal bedroom--a private space with storage of personal belongings and a computer capable of doing interplanetary communication "home."

Will continue more later...

(th)-

I was hoping for some commentary and input on my latest post of the 17 astronaut crew thread.

The first full day in which we get to use the days light is the most time compressed for activities that must be completed as they lay the ground work of mans survival outside of the can (starship) that we came in....

1 unloading equipment
2 unloading nuclear reactor
3 move and bury or create a berm for the reactor
4 connecting reactor and turning it on
5 unload equipment shelter

Construction and Maintenance Triads:

All members of this particular group should be qualified and experienced operators of a tracked Bobcat style front end loader and all the associated accessories. I also think that we should include 2 such pieces of equipment, as preparation of a future landing site is paramount for any ongoing research station/colony headquarters. I'm including 2 of these because of the individual size is pretty small and the jobs are large. Having some duplication is prudent as a backup in case of an accident with one of them or irreparable damage during use.

Electrician/electronics technician: 2 of these with the primary specialty. There will be lots of wires involves running from Hab to shop to power sources. Hooking up all the necessary equipment and construction will keep them very busy.

Heavy equipment operators: 2, with this as as their specialty and also primary maintenance tech for the earth(Mars regolith) moving equipment.

Habitat construction specialists. 2  I envision some temporary inflatable habitation vis a vis Bigelow-style, or more recently Sierra Nevada Corporation designs. Until the permanent living accommodations are finished, living onboard the Starship is fine. I'm thinking that once the inflatable Habs are ready, this will allow the construction crews to start building more permanent structures. I'm envisioning either excavation into a hillside as the basis of permanent facilities, or if landed in a non-hilly area, using the front loaders to excavate large trenches for "pit houses." The construction crews will be responsible for airlock installation and all the associated electrical, heating, and life maintenance equipment--including sanitation. These structures will be in a prefabricated form. Some of this work will be too much for the construction triads and everyone will be involved.  suggested pit house construction, and the spoil from the excavation can subsequently used for a regolith layer over the roofs to reduce radiation exposure of the occupants. After the regolith layer is in place, a set of Solar panels can be installed where they can be easily maintained and "dusted off." This also reduces the line loss of the generated power. I envision at least 5 pit-style buildings. Initially, a living module for sleeping, bathing, food preparation, recreation time. Second module will be a shop for vehicle maintenance: 2 rovers and 2 Bobcat-style regolith movers. Third module will be the science and sample analysis building. Module 4 will be a storehouse for food, and where samples destined for transshipment to Earth will be held. These will all require lots of airlocks. My mission envisions a crewed vessel with most of the primary living essentials onboard, and a second freighter with the nuclear reactor and solar panels as their loads. This will be a larger than necessary nuclear reactor for fuel preparation and the necessary chemical processing apparatus; Sabatier reactor and Moxie system, and a water hydrolysis system. Actually there will be two of such loadouts on duplicate transport Starships--in case one goes missing. If we are doing well, the 2 transport craft will be making Methane and Oxygen for the return to Earth within the first month of setup. The primary crewed Starship will have a small nuclear reactor onboard for life maintenance requirements. 
Moving on to module 5, which will be a greenhouse module for food growing experiments and dietary supplementation. It would be best if this module could be built into a hillside to prevent radiative heat loss during nighttime, and allow steeper window panels to be included.
I'm envisioning that the primary nuclear reactor will be located more remotely from the camp, as a self-contained and exposure to the elements should not bother this module.