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#3901 Re: Human missions » U.S. National Space Policy » 2006-11-08 03:00:13

How do you write "Subtext"?

What is the subtext of this sentence?

Mary had a little lamb his fleece was white as snow,
Everywhere that Mary went, her lamb was sure to go.

One could read this sentence and make an interpretation that the lamb was horny ans stalking Mary, but that would be in your imagination. The subtext is in the reader's head and is not written down on the page. You as the author have no control over what the reader may imagine, and so you cannot be responsible for the "subtext" but only the text and the literal meaning of the words on the page.

#3902 Re: Not So Free Chat » Canada / U.S. relations » 2006-11-08 02:52:57

There is no harm in beliving in something while you are dying, you end up just as dead either way, why not make the dying person comfortable and let him believe what he wants. If you are an atheist, then you believe that his existance will end soon, the least you can do for him is try to make the end of his existance as comfortable as possible since you believe that he has nothing else after that. If he goes on thinking he's headed for paradise and then his brain stops, what's the harm in that? His brain is going to stop if he believes that Death is the End, just as surely as if he believed he had an immortal soul. the problem of human existance is the finite lifespan. It would be nice if Death only came by accident, because then you would not have much time to think about it, rather than facing the slow deteriation of your mind and body that ends in death. One idea is that maybe you can freeze yourself and then one day maybe nanotechnology will get advanced enough to unfreeze you and reanimate your bdoy and mind. Some people think nanotechnology as envisioned by Eric Drexeler will never happen. Of course if you were building nanotechnology, you may want your compadators to think nanotech was impossible or impractical so he wouldn't try. One can be optimistic wghile one dies, or one can fret, in the end it may make no difference anyway.

#3903 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-11-08 02:41:56

Why should we expend resources, and risk a soldiers trying to rebuild a nonrepresentative society, where some local "yo yo" has absolute governing power dues to Tradition or Religion or whatever, I don't think that is an appropriate expenditure of US taxpayers dollars. Why should we prop up one local "yo yo" and not another who also "shakes a rattle" and "grows a beard". The only decent thing we should do while rebuilding a country is to return the government to the people, and not to anyone else, that means democracy and that means a republic. A representative government is the only practical form of democracy. Having the local "yo yo" run things and pass the reins of power down to his son is not a worthy expendituee of our efforts.

I think our priority should be toward defeating the enemy rather than rebuilding his society afterwards, especially if he makes it cost our soldier's lives for no damn good reason. If society does not help us to rebuild their country, and they just use it as an opportunity to kill our soldiers who are trying to help them, we can just let them stew in their ruins. The theory being that their government got them into this mess by starting a War with us in the first place, and if we knock down their buildings and ruin their infrastructure in the process, then that is their problem. We can offer to help them rebuild, but if they just shoot our soldiers because they don't understand that when they surrender, they are supposed to lay down their weapons and stop shooting, then we'll just leave them in their wreckage and maybe that wreckage will suffice to demostrate what happens when they start wars with us. Stay out of our way, and they can continue to have electricity, and running water. We were being generous in spending billions of collars trying to rebuild Iraq, we had no obligation to do so. Most of our soldiers' casualities were in the rebuilding of Iraq, not in the defeating of it.

The lesson of the Iraq war is Knock em down, defeat your enemy, but do not rebuild his country. If the defeated country starts becoming a problem again, knock him down again, and till he finally gets it through his thick skull not to start any more wars with us. The idea of rebuilding Iraq was a fairly liberal one to start out with. The only reason liberals object is because Republicans were doing it, and they needed an election year issue. Perhaps we should have just let Germany and Japan lie in ruins, and if their populations caused any more trouble we should have just bombed them again. The Iraq War proves that the Marshal Plan idea was a bad one, don't you agree? For that was the idea behind rebuilding Iraq, it was called a "Republic" after all, so we therefore tried to make it one. That Iraqis are ungrateful for our sacrifice and expense is their character flaw, and because of that and the failure of the Iraq War, I would not welcome them into my country should any of them choose to immigrate and flee that mess they created with their uncivilized violence. My reasoning is that if they are not ready for Democracy over their, they are certainly not ready to come over here and become US citizens! We should have not let Vietnamese people into our country either, they did not make their country work after our 10+ years of sacrifice, they can very well sleep in that nasty bed they made. If in the Future Iraqis suffer and die because of their own barbaric violence, it is their own fault! No more help from us.

#3904 Re: Not So Free Chat » Why does U.S.A. support Israel? - Finally, I'm Asking » 2006-11-08 02:13:09

Well, if you equalize the two, we could have monetary union just like in Europe, then we could make those Canadian quarters in my pocket worth something.

shudder.gif Don't even think about it. The Royal Bank suggested it in the late 1990s. Currency is a major icon of national sovereignty. The NAFTA has not resulted in economic union like the EU, we still have major disputes from protectionism. Canada has solved it's federal budgetary deficit, the US hasn't. The US federal government is no where near doing things the Canadian way. Furthermore, the US does not respect Canada enough to abandon the US dollar in favour of a new continental currency. Your suggestions are an illustration; you only listed US historical figures. You did not mention John A. Macdonald, Wilfrid Laurier, William Lyon Mackenzie King, or Robert Borden. They're former Prime Ministers, on the $10, $5, $50, and $100 bills respectively. John A. Macdonald was Canada's first, that's why I list him first.

The US has to get it's own house in order.

Federal budget deficit has little to do with it, that is a fiscal matter, not a monetary one.

Those were only for the dollars printed in the US, Canada would have its own symbols of course. All we'd have to do to have a single currency is lock the exchange rate for US to Canadian dollars at 1:1, and also make the Canadian dollar legal tender in the United States, and make the US dollar legal tender in Canada. The two notes don't have to have identical portrates on them, but it would help if the US dollar and the canadian dollar were the same physical size and came in the same denominations. The way it would work is that instead of exchanging Canadian dollars for US dollars when you cross the border, you simply bring you canadian dollars into the US and you spend them just as you would US dollars anywhere in the US. You could even deposit them in a bank. Since the US and Canada dollar would be equal stores would use them interchangably. A typical cashregister might contain US and Canada currency notes intermingled, the change drawer would contain US and Canada quarters intermingled, US and Canada dimes intermingled, and US and canada nickles and pennies intermingled. Its a simpilar concept to the US State quarters, in that each state quarter has a different design on the back but no matter what they are still worth 25 cents.

What would happen is that after you've spend your Canadian currency in the US, the store owner would take that currency and deposit it in the store bank account and have that amount credited to the store's business account. The US bank would then exchange Canadian currency notes for US currency notes with Canadian banks, that way every time you withdrew funds in the US it would come out as US currency, if you withdrew it from a Canadian branch of the same bank, it would come out as Canadian currency. You could keep you symbols, its just that a 1:1 exchange rate would be locked in.

#3905 Re: Not So Free Chat » Canada / U.S. relations » 2006-11-07 13:26:53

I suppose it can do no harm to introduce, in this rant about the members of political parties who adhere to one or another supernatural belief to the exclusion of any other, that there are quite a few of us who have no such beliefs and for whom the negative appellation "agnostic" or "athiest" is undeserved. "Humanist" is the proper term. Look it up.

Your 76 years old and still a humanist?

I expect I'll be getting more religious toward my old age. So far science has not offered much in averting the Inevitable End. The clock is ticking on all of us, when your young and in your 20s Atheism works fine, you just have to be very careful and avoid doing dangerous things. If you are very careful, you get to be old, and no matter how careful you are, you know the end is coming. I have sufficient awareness of self that I really don't want it to end. If you convince yourself that their is an afterlife, that makes dying all the more easier. If you want a good example of that, just look at how Pope John Paul II died, he died calmly and his last acts were in preparing for that death rather than fighting it with every fiber of his being. It does tend to make things run more smoothly if you believe in something after this world.

#3906 Re: Not So Free Chat » North Korea Blew the NUKE !!! DPRK tests the bomb ? » 2006-11-07 13:19:22

And you hear the cry coming from Europe, "Spare that dictator!"
Perhaps they are hoping that the current government will be overthrown and Saddam Hussein reinstalled as that nation's dictator. So long as Saddam is alive, it remains a possibility that he could be busted out of jail by one militia or another.

#3907 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-11-07 13:16:23

Oh, come on, Tom! Today (election Tuesday) Saddam is calling on all Iraqis to bury the hatchet, and if we're not careful to keep 'em fighting they'll do it and free him just to eliminate the present carnage. So much for your "wrong end of our bombs and guns once more" empty threat. Bush has no subtlety, and by taking out Saddam and his military, left a population unused to freedom the equivalent of throwing a bunch of unruly kids a few granades to play with.

So if a future Iraq successor state invades our country, do you suggest that we offer them no resistance because we don't know how to occupy their country if we win? Much easier to lose and throw in the towel, convert to Islam and accept a dictator isn't it?
According to your stated age you should remeber World War II. It seems that liberals try very hard not to learn the lessons of World War II and not to apply those lessons. What was the proper course for our foreign policy back in the 1930s? What should we have done to prevent World War II from happening and us sacrificing millions of our soldiers? A little imperialistic pre-emption perhaps? The liberals always say we should have done the opposite from what we had done, so therefore if we listened to their advice we'd always be starting things and the abandoning them, because according to them we should always have done the other thing, and its impossible to satisfy that condition. The liberals always want the US to do other that what its doing no matter what it is, they are perpetual critics.

The elections today are all about losing. The Democrats don't have any solutions, the public is impatient with the lack of progress in Iraq, so they are voting for someone they perceive as losers, people they know will give up the gfight in Iraq and quit. Quiting is always easy, its winning that's hard.

#3908 Re: Not So Free Chat » Why does U.S.A. support Israel? - Finally, I'm Asking » 2006-11-07 13:05:15

In 1998 the Canadian dollar dropped to 64 cents US, but September 28 this year it was 90.02 cents. Today it's 88.68 cents; fluctuations.

Source: Bank of Canada, that's the Canadian equivalent to the Federal Reserve. If you chart Canada's dollar to other foreign currencies, the Canadian dollar is really rising. Rather, the US dollar and those foreign currencies tied to it are dropping. Canada's dollar relative to the Euro is about the same.

Well, if you equalize the two, we could have monetary union just like in Europe, then we could make those Canadian quarters in my pocket worth something.

We can always revalue the dollar and put Alexander Hamilton's portrait on the One dollar bill. Andrew Jackson can go on the two dollar bill, Ulysses Grant sould be on the five dollar bill and Benjamin Franklin would go on the ten dollar bill, then we could put George Washington on the twenty, Abe Lincoln on the fifty, and Thomas Jefferson on the One hundred dollar bill.

#3909 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-11-07 09:40:40

In 1999 the pentagon developed a wargame to see what would happen if they invaded Iraq. They looked at what it would take to defeat the Iraqi regime and what it would take to hold the country afterwards.

The "Desert Crossing" game had 70 Military and Diplomatic and Intelligence staff and considered a minimum necassary troop deployment of 400 thousand soldiers to seal the country. It still considered a high risk of insurgency and trouble occuring anyway.

Past War Games Foresaw Iraq Problems

But only the Bush Administration brought Saddam Hussein finally to trial and to be sentenced to Death, al the past Administrations simply Managed Saddam Hussein, it was George Bush and George Bush alone that got rid of him. If it weren't for George Bush, the World would still be fretting about Saddam Hussein.

#3910 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-11-07 09:37:12

I think in any case, you can say that George Bush gave it his all to make Iraq a success.

Really?  The kindest word his closest allies have for him is incompetent.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feat … cons200612

According to Perle, who left the Defense Policy Board in 2004, this unfolding catastrophe has a central cause: devastating dysfunction within the administration of President George W. Bush. Perle says, "The decisions did not get made that should have been. They didn't get made in a timely fashion, and the differences were argued out endlessly.… At the end of the day, you have to hold the president responsible"

Who has the ultimate responsibility for Iraq? The Iraqi people of course. George Bush has given the Iraqi people the chance to choose their own government and they have, it is now that government's responsibility to make Iraq a success, not the Bush Administration.

All George Bush has done is give the Iraqi people a chance to take back their country, and George Bush has been very patient with them, he has expended just about all his politivcal capital to bring this chance to the Iraqi people, a chance they did not have under Saddam Hussein. The real question is whether the Iraqi people are going to let this opportunity slip through their fingers or are they going to rise to the occasion? You really can't blame George Bush for the Iraqi people making the wrong choice and commiting violence against themselves.

The problem with the Iraqi people existed before George Bush became president, it is not his fault that they are so violent and unruly, it is an Islamic Cultural problem, and if the Iraqi people aren't ready for democracy, that is their problem, but if any future unelected government of theirs causes more problems for us, we'll make that their problem to, as they'll see out armed forces once again and be at the wrong end of our bombs and guns once more.

#3911 Re: Not So Free Chat » Why does U.S.A. support Israel? - Finally, I'm Asking » 2006-11-07 09:24:38

Well, I have to hold out the hope that enough Americans have a brain. People like Tom give Americans a bad name. "Defeating" the "Confederate upraising" with military force is somehow Ok?

In fact Sargent Thomas Kalbfus, the original, participated in that conflict for the State of Pennsyvania to preserve the United States of America. Do you have something against the preservation of the United States?

In a country that claims to be free? Failure to understand an analogy of recklessness exposing yourself to criminal acts? Most importantly, failure to understand why American foreign policy has been provoking retaliation for a very long time.

What was the 9/11 attack retaliation for, specifically?
I don't recall any reason given. Explain that to the victims families why those hijackers had it out for them!
Unlike you I don't automatically assume the attackers had a good reason for murdering so many. What was the latest Israeli occupation of Gaza for?
You automatically assume the terrorists have good reasons for doing what they're doing, why can't you extent to us the same courtesy?

And finally justifying dictating the form of government to another country; the old excuse that "someone" at some vague time in the future might want something else. The implication that Uncle Sam knows best. This is what stirred up trouble in the first place.

People who support a dictatorship are people who want to supress other people's right to vote. It makes no difference if the American people choose a dictatorship for ourselves or if we choose a dictatorship for Canada, to give a hypothetical example. In the latter we are imposing a dictator on someone else, and in the former we are imposing a dictatorship on ourselves and our children for a number of future would be elections. I don't believe I have a right to overthrow the US Constituion and force my children to live under a dictatorship. My right to vote and my children's is not mine to give away. The right of the people to choose their government is inherent, they cannot however be allowed to choose undemocratic forms of government for one time only. If you support the right of people to choose a dictator, then I support the right of the American People to forceably remove that dictator if it causes the American people trouble. I don't see how anybody who gives up his right to vote, has any right to complain about whatever we do to his country in the name of our national security, didn't he just give up any say he wanted to have in choosing his own government? That is what I interpret someone choosing a dictatorship to mean. The Iraqi people have made their choice in choosing a dictatorship, fine, now after their having shosen to give up all say in how their country is run, we've chosen to remove that dictator and give the right to choose their government back to the people.

I can only hope America votes in a government of "doves" at the mid-term election.

By retreating, they'll only ensure that their will be more wars, it was the "doves" that gave Hitler a great head start in World War II, by offering him Austria, and Czechoslavakia.

Canada went into Afghanistan to support our ally, but Canadian participation in a prolonged occupation is damaging our reputation. We can't afford to stay there much longer.

What was the invasion of Afghanistan in retaliation for? If the 9/11 terrorists had good reason then surely so must have we. Let the first move for peace be theirs by their surrendering. Why don't they choose the "Doves" and not us? Why must the West always be the one to make the sacrifice for peace and not the other guy?

Furthermore, Canada's economy is closely tied to the US, and America's economy is already going down.

That's why the unemployment rate is so low.

Look at the value of the US dollar,

The Canadian dollar is worht less.

America's deficit and debt.

The US Deficit is down.

Canada certainly can't afford to get involved in another conflict, for the sake of our peaceful relations with other nations of the world.[/QUOTE]
It hasn't been involved in Iraq anyway, I don't know what the heck your complaining about. Do you want to be neutrals in the War on terrorism? Well then please excuse us as we close the borders with Canada, as we don't want those terrorists your so willing to "glad handle" to come down to the United States.

American can't afford another war for financial reasons.

So if the enemy attacks, we just surrender and convert to Islam to save our pocketbooks?

Canada's economy would be damaged if America goes into a major recession. I could continue to give philosophical reasons for doing the right thing, but since people like Tom don't want to hear them, then please pay attention to practical reasons. Please step back from the brink.

I say to the terrorists to step back from the brink, they are the ones on it. However much we're suffereing, they're suffering that much more. The ultimate aim is deterence, their pain is greater, and their sacrifice is greater. The way we win this war is by making the enemy make the greater sacrifice, and cause them to die on droves until they cease to fight.

#3912 Re: Civilization and Culture » War on Mars » 2006-11-06 12:10:18

But don't ignore the negative!

If you don't want people who rape, murder, and abuse their spouses, you want an authority to call upon that can do something about the situation, someone to hunt down the rapist, bring him in, and if he resists, use force against him, even lethal force if necessary, but the rapist must be stopped. You can have a community that agrees to live in peace with each other, but it only takes one criminal to ruin the situation. Most people who are raped are raped by someone they know. You may feel safe with someone until you get to know them better.

We don't encourage rape if we prepare for the possibility that someone may try to rape someone else. If we are prepared to deal with it, we can stop the rapist and deter other would be rapists, if we do not deal with the subject and assume everybody's going to be civilized, then the opportunity will only enourage someone to commit rape just like they did on Pitcarn Island recently. I hear the British had to ship in a judge and build a jail where none existed before simply to deal with that case.

#3913 Re: Human missions » U.S. National Space Policy » 2006-11-06 12:02:12

I'm from Australia and I wonder if in the commercial scene also that this policy doesn't mean that other nations commercial efforts will suffer as a result of this. Private companies do not play nice when it comes to business and this policy could see U.S governmental and commericial domination of space and I can't agree with that as much as I like the U.S. No nation has the right to rule space, there is enough room out there for all of us. I understand that there are enemies who might use LEO or the Moon to threaten Earth, but realistically that day is still many, many years off. Seems like more paranoid thinking to me. If space is to be controlled it should be by a NATO type alliance, not one nation.

The US has a powerful Navy, but it doesn't sink commerical shipping so that its commercial ships can benefit. Most generals would want to control as much as possible so it can deny the enemy their targets, it would be dishonest for them to say otherwise, this is true of other countries as well as out own. If you want a successful outcome in a war, you want to control the battlefield where ever it is. we are far from controlling space, it is more of a goal to shoot for than a reality. The purpose being to deny the enemy the ability to destroy our cities, a rather selfish aim I admit, trying to preserve the lives of millions of people and all, but there it is.

#3914 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-11-06 11:53:08

This is a pretty important week for the powers that be ... I think I'll wait until things have resolved themselves politically before continuing this rant. Back at you in a week or so, Tom. Meanwhile cross fingers for our people who have to be there while we merely talk, eh?

I do hope of course that Iraq manages to hold itself together. The other position I mentioned is a fallback position in case the Democrats take over the Congress. I think in any case, you can say that George Bush gave it his all to make Iraq a success. American patience is finite, and George Bush is putting that patience to the test to see how much aid he can give the Iraqi government. But the Iraqis must realize what a precarious situation we're in and by extention they. The Iraqi people must take responsibility for their continued survival or else their will be consequences. I think there are other ways we could be victorious without the Iraq situation being a total success. Either we win and our opponents lose, or we lose and our opponents still lose, at least we'll retain our ability to deter if we see to it that our opponents don't win in the wake of a pullout from Precipitous Iraq. we just have to support the factions that are on our side which are capable of governing themselves.

#3915 Re: Not So Free Chat » Why does U.S.A. support Israel? - Finally, I'm Asking » 2006-11-06 10:26:56

I don't care, an enemy is an enemy, and the enemy of my enemy can also be my enemy too. One of the main reasons why wars last so long is the liberal tendency to show sympathy for our enemies, that sustains the enemy in the field.

Listen to yourself. Before America was founded, the primary purpose of European military was to "pacify" the public. That mean when the public revolted, when the held demonstrations or declared one town free of a government official that royalty had put in place, the military would go in to slaughter the protesters and regain control. US law holds that no weapon of war can be used against American citizens on American soil. The use of a tank at Waco Texas was direct violation of that law.

So you say, Lincoln was wrong to put down the Confederate Uprising. The Soldiers of the Confederate States of America were also Americans, yet Lincoln used Federal troops to defeat them and thus saved the Union. I believe precident was established during the American Civil War. Are you saying that the US Federal Government no longer has the right to put down internal rebellions with its own military forces?

Hmm, as I wrote this Tom edited his message, removed the sentence with the word "revolt". The quoted text doesn't have that sentence so my lecture appears not to make sense.

"Revolt" is an emotionally charged word, after writing it, I decided not to use it, and I also have a tendency to put too many words in my sentences when fewer words will do and make the point just as well. A revolt can be an expression of the will of the people, or just that of a dissatisfied section, the rebellion in the South was also a revolt, it does not justify slavery though. Since the word "revolt" is emotionally charged and is seen in some eyes as partially justifying the cause behind the revolt, I have decided not to use that word. I'm sure you have revised your sentences to on many occasions.

I watched that video on YouTube. It's pretty revolting. However, it quotes movie scenes rather than news interviews with real Arabs. One clip is particularly important, an Arab says "You have killed our women and our children, bombed our cities from afar, like cowards, and you dare to call us terrorists!"

Yes I dare, they were given a free vote a chance to determine their own government and a chance for peace where the Israeli government would not bomb them from afar and kill their children, and what did they do with that vote? They voted in terrorists, the Hamas organization that calles for the destruction of Israel, and then they kidnapped Israeli soldiers and launched rocket attacks on Israel, killing some innocent Israeli civilians. Since the Palestinians by their own vote, broke the peace, they shall suffer from the resulting war, they were given a chance to live in peace with their neighbors and in their own land, but they rejected it. You cannot seriously expect the Israelis to stop defending themselves when the Palestinian people launch an unprovoked attack on them do you? Do you live in Israel, are you willing to sacrifice your life because you feel sorry for your attackers, then how can you expect that of the Israelis?

That movie then went to depict the speaker as a madman who didn't believe what he said, but the sentence is key to everything. Many Arabs feel this way. Most of them don't believe violence can be solved with volence so won't take up arms, but enough do. Those few who are willing to fight to defend their homes and their people will be recruited by terrorist organizations to fight America. This will go on as along as you attempt to assert your dominance by military actions in their country.

The majority voted for the Hamas terrorist organization, I'd say that includes most of the people. Most of the Palestinians wanted this war, and most of them expected the Israelis not to defend themselves when they attacked, a most foolish expectation, so now they suffer, and maybe next time they'll learn when next peace is offered to them, if the Israelis will allow them another chance.


I had said for years that as long as America attempts to use military actions, overt or covert, to enforce its dominance of third world countries, they will fight back. It was only a matter of time before something like 9/11 happened. I horrified it did, but don't act surprised. I'll repeat an analogy I wrote before: A friend leaves valuables in plane sight in his car, leaves the doors unlocked and the windows rolled down, leaves the car unattended for hours then comes back to find it was stolen. What do you say?

It is wrong to steal, and I'd pass by many valuable possessions without stealing it, just because it was left in plain sight. Also If I see a nearly naked beautiful woman, that does not mean I will rape her just because she was dressed like a prostitute. I follow a code of moral conduct that says stealing is wrong, and I expect my fellow man to adhere to the same code.

You don't wish that upon him, the criminal is still guilty of theft and must be punished, but your friend was asking for it. What do you say? This is how I see the attack of 9/11.

That is a clasic blame the victim argument if I ever read one. The owner may be foolish, but I've heard of many societies where people leave a child unattended for a moment and the child is not kidnapped. If people steal just because their is an opportunity to steal, that does not excuse it, if people murder just because they think they can get away with it, that is not an excuse.

America has been engaging in military actions in third world countries for years. That whipped up resentment, those countries were bound to attack the US sooner or later.

And we were bound to retaliate when they did! They should have expected it, did they not? When they attack us unprovoked their was bound to be a response, they were fools to expect otherwise, and you should not expect otherwise either. I don't care how aggrieved some people think they were, murdering innocent people was not justified, and you do a diservice to their memory when you try to excuse it as an "irresistable" opportunity to attack.

I still think al Qaeda is a criminal organization guilty of mass murder, I still think they should be arrested, tried, and punished for mass murder. America has the death penalty, I have no problem with that as long as a fair trial clearly identifies the accused of being guilty. The reason Canada abandoned the death penalty was not do to some "liberal" right of criminals; it was because too many people were executed then found innocent after the execution. You can free someone mistakenly imprisoned, but you can't un-execute a man. In fact, I specifically want to see a long, drawn-out trial for Osama bin Laden, I want him to have to face the families of those he killed, then I want to see him executed by lethal injection on live television. There's no doubt Osama is guilty, he already confessed on TV, but for anyone else make sure you have the right man. That's what a trial is for. But I come back to what I started in this paragraph, two wrongs to not make a right. The middle east (both Arab and Israeli) have always been a volatile area, prone to fickle alliances that change quickly. The citizens are passionate, violent people, messing with the geopolitics in that region is asking to get bitten.

Imposing by military force an American style government will only result in resentment. Freedom means the people who live there have to decide themselves. If they choose a republican democracy, or a parliamentary democracy, or a constitutional monarchy, or a dictatorship, or communism, or theocracy, it's all their choice.

The right to choose one's government is an inherent right that cannot morally be given away. If one chooses a dictatorship, he is denying future generations the right to vote and it is just as wrong as when a foreign enemy chooses to occupy his country, and it is just as wrong as when the military chooses to seize power by force.

#3916 Re: Human missions » U.S. National Space Policy » 2006-11-05 11:54:03

Any power with a ballistic missile capability that travels through space on the way to its target is a space power.

#3917 Re: Civilization and Culture » War on Mars » 2006-11-05 11:40:27

If we want a Mars without war, we have to be realistic about it, we need a governing authority that can impose the rule of law, and these consideration on how war is fought on Mars will still have to be considered. Hopefully war will be between the Government and an insurgent group rather than between two governments, as the later would be much more deadly. There is no gene that makes up not get along. As long as their are more than one intelligent human being their will be conflicts, and the more colonists we send to Mars, the greater the chance that those conflicts will be expressed through violence. The only way to keep the violence down is to suppress it with a governmental force that has a preponderance of weapons. If we take the idealistic point of view and not bring weapons, then when the populations is big enough people will make weapons locally and attempt to seize power by force and impose their will on others through threat of violence. It best to have an established government from the get go, and make it a democratic government that to leave things to chance based on who can build weapons first.

Lets say eveyone agrees to go disarmed, then the more people we sent to Mars, the more likely it is that someone will try to violate this agreement and try to build weapons so he can force his will on others and gain political power. If there is no armed authority to stop this, it will go on unchecked and Mars will break up into waring factions. We cannot leave human nature behind when we bring humans with us. The option to use force to get one's way will always exist, the purpose of government is to make that option of using force to be an unattractive one.

#3918 Re: Not So Free Chat » Froggy's » 2006-11-05 11:19:52

You can choose to ignore the danger, just like the people had who worked in the World Trade Center that morning on September 11, 2001, a date which most liberals would like to pretend never happened

When you throw such infamous accusations that do not correspond to any truth, Mr KalbfusSS, you are just properly a disgusting kind of a man, you act as a nazi : "Calumniate, it will always remain something about it"
That's what you do
I'm happy to be separate from you by an ocean

If I was a NAZI, I'd be foresquare in support of the Palestinians and other Arabs because they kill Jews. Of course I do not support killing Jews, I support Israel instead. I know who is on America's side and who is not.

I'll bet you meant NAZI in a good way, you mean everything the NAZIS did other than kill millions of Jews. Well I don't support occupying France either, nor do I support Germany Starting World War II.

So maybe you mean that I am like a NAZI in any other way besides killing Jews by the millions in death camps or by starting World War II and occupying France. If you get rid of all those infamous things that NAZIs are famous for, what do you have left? A simple dictator like Saddam Hussein perhaps, but without the Mass Killings?

All those things are so much what I'm not like. All I believe in is that our enemies must be defeated so that they give us no more problems. This tendency for liberals to feel sympathy for the enemy only sustains them and prolongs the war. You should know that, and its the war your proteting isn't it? I don't like wars anymore than you do, but my solution isn't to run away from them, but to destroy the enemy so that he feels that attacking us was a bad experience, and not by rewarding him by allowing him to have something that he was after.

I am right about left-wingers in Europe, they despise NAZIs, but not their Arabic cousins. What it is about NAZIs they don't like, I don't know, because I seem many Arabs and Muslims supporting the same things the NAZIs did.

#3919 Re: Not So Free Chat » Why does U.S.A. support Israel? - Finally, I'm Asking » 2006-11-05 11:07:19

Here's a politically incorrect, polarizing, but relevant idea. The United States has already moved against Islamic terrorists in Afghanistan and against Hussein's regime in Iraq, for a number of reasons. Our present enemy is not from a single nation, but simply extremists who are predominately Arab. Hamas and their Palestinian ilk certainly qualify.

If we want peace, then perhaps we should throw our full support behind Israel, discarding the less-than-convincing attempt to be unbiased. Many Palestinians won't accept any peace agreement because they will not accept a single Jew on what they see as their land. They can't be negotiated with, there can be no peace. This element must be eliminated. Maybe we should move to wipe out every muslim extremist group in the region. They are already attacking Israel and they'll never be won over by America. It might be time to face the possibly that "crusade" was the right word after all.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like this idea. It will mean heavy casualties on all sides, decades of occupation of a huge area of land, and a radically altered global political enviroment with much of the world aligned against America, in words though likely not in deeds. America would acquire a collection of Arab vassal states, and Israel's security would be assured. The price would be too high, but if such a course should prove necessary we should do it whole-heartedly. If we have to be militant imperialists, we should be the best damn militant imperialists we can be.

Of course there's a nuclear option, but no one wants that. Let's just put that back under the table. But make sure everyone knows it's there.

You're clearly confused, radical islamics hated Hussein

I think you'll enjoy this link
"The Israel Factor: Ranking the presidential candidates"
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerPage.jhtml
attitudes toward Israel.

Here's a good one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi1ZNEjEarw
'Planet of The Arabs'

I don't care, an enemy is an enemy, and the enemy of my enemy can also be my enemy too. One of the main reasons why wars last so long is the liberal tendency to show sympathy for our enemies, that sustains the enemy in the field.

#3920 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-11-05 11:01:05

It makes no difference to me what they are called. I see no distinctions between Persians and Arabs, just as I see no distinctions between Arabs and Germans during World War II. Some Hard Leftists do however, while they see the NAZIs as the facist enemy, a conclusion they came late too when NAZI Germany attacked their great Patron Russia, the left wing is willing to give the Arab and the Persian a break for their anti-Semitism, for them it is excusable for middleEastern men to be warmongers, bigots and antisemites, its just not excusable for Americans to be these things. If the Arabs and Persians want to wipe Israel off the Map, that's ok in their book, if America wants to stop it, that is Imperialism or interference, and I don't believe the left-wing in the western world sees the difference between Persians and Arabs either other than their unfortunate tendency to fight each other rather than concentrate their attacks on Americans and Jews.

Tom, the world is not black and white. We have already seen that in the situation in Iraq if we knock of the top dog in this case the Sunni Arab Baath tribe/party aka Saddams crew we end up with other sections rising. In this case since we in a stroke removed the Sunni control of Iraq we empowered the oppressed Kurd minority and more importantly the Shia as well.

The US army showed just how effective it was in destroying Iraqs army but it then made the mistake that though you need a certain amount of men to win the war often you need double that to actually control the country. Since the US and its allies did not have that manpower insurgency thrived. The security that Iraq had before the war was beheaded and the police in short disbanded. Militias from the minorities increased if only to defend themselves. Fear of these other minorities gave Al-qhaeda its chance to arm and train the Sunni and Iran and its secret services have given training and arms to the Shi'te forces. The Kurds are being trained by Israel.

It is now at the point that death squads are killing other ethnic groups off and we have ethnic cleansing working in Iraq on our watch. We also can do little to stop it as the insurgency and Militias are more or less in control of the countryside and our patrols run serious risks if we venture outside. Even increasingly in the cities the insurgencies have made it risky for us as the technology and arms flood across Irans,Syria's,Saudia Arabia's borders.

When we leave we had better have left a much more stable country behind than what is currently present. We may even have to divide the country into three. If we dont what will happen is that as soon as we leave conflict will break out and this could easily pull in all the other local countries and cause the middle east to explode. Tom you may not care but you will if it puts the cost of petrol up to the point you cant afford to use it. This is quite likely since the most common tactic in middle east wars is to attack the defenceless floating bombs that are oil tankers to stop the other sides finances. Iran is already planning it why do you think she has built all these new attack boats and Surface air effect attack craft.

How about three unequal sized portions, with the ones that have given us the most help and cooperation receiving the largest and most valuable part of Iraq.

#3921 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-11-04 22:54:16

Tsk, tsk, Tom. When your patience is really at an end, I expect you'll drop everything and join up to fight the fight--not just talk the talk. Or is what you really mean is: "Let's you and them fight?" War is hell, and it takes more real guts to stop than than start the fighting. Brave words, mine as well as yours, from a couple of (let's face it) couch tacticians, eh?

So you want to pit everybody who's beyond fighting age against those who are at fighting age. So everybody who's beyond fighting age sould council defeat and vote for Surrendercrats, who want to quit, give up, and throw in the towel. My time to fight was from 1985 to 1995, I registered with selective service, and if they really needed me during those years, they could have drafted me. The first Persian Gulf War really didn't last that long, and I was not about to quit college in order to fight it, I was pursuing other career objectives than training to shoot people. Still I have a son who is three years old, it would be nice if all the terrorist countries and movements were gone and eliminate by the time he is 18. As I have said before, I have no patience with long protracted wars, but my preference is not to quit them, but to destroy the enemy so he will not rise again. I have no patience for the traditional policy of engage the enemy, then back off until he attacks you, then engage the enemy again.
Do you know why I voted for Bill Clinton in 1992?
Because he didn't finish off Saddam Hussein in the First Persian Gulf War. I look upon George W. Bush's activities as a correction to his Father's mistake of letting Saddam live to fight another day. The reason why this war has gone on for too long is that George W.  Bush has been to nice too he enemy, he got rid of Saddam, but as they say 'the apple doesn't usually fall very far from the tree'. George W. Bush has a chivalorus streak, where his inclination is to give his enemy quarter whn he asks for it. I knew the enemy was going to take advantage of the change in strategy from overthrowing Iraq to rebuilding that country, and so they have. The only problem is that the Democrats want to be that much nicer to the enemy and hand over to them victory laurels, they want to defund the war and put our troops and ultimately the American public in greater danger! The only way to withdraw from Iraq is by crushing them enemy so that they can never rise again and so my son will never have to fight them. If Iraq can be built, fine, but if the Democrats make that impossible, then I think the factions that have been most helpful to us should receive the largest and most valuable portion of Iraq, and those fairweather friends and sometimes enemies should be punished for not helping us, especially that Prime Minister that ordered our troops to abandon the search for that kidnapped US soldier. George Bush that nice and accomodating President complied of course.

You see, I don't care if Iraq is rebuilt or not. If the Iraqi people aren't sufficiently interested in that project, that is their problem. All I really want is for our enemy to be sufficiently punished and whipped so bad, that he'll never mess with us again. If Iraq self-destructs, then that will stand as a lesson to those who mess with us. I would like to reward the Kurd, who have been helpful to us handsomely, and shove aside those groups who weren't so helpful or who actively harmed our troops or aided and abedded the terrorists. The the Iraqis as a people are willing to destroy their own country so that a temporary US President can be called a failure, I want to make sure that they do not enjoy the loss of their country in any particular way. Meanwhile we can arm the Kurds just like we do the Israelis if they remain cooperative, we'll give them a free hand in dealing with minority Shiite and Sunni Arabs, that have given us so much trouble. If we can't help build a working Iraq, then at least we could wreck revenge against our enemies, so that they'll be deterred in the future. The Germans and the Japanese were interested in helping us rebuild their countries after we conquered them, if the Iraqis are fools and do not help us, then we can offer them only the stick after our patience with the carrot is exhausted.

I'm not really interested in fighting wars. I am interested in fighting the wars we have to fight in such a way that future wars are prevented because our enemy is defeated. If we give them a victory as the Democrats seem so enthused about, there will be future wars against us by that same enemy. Do you understand where I'm coming from. Just because I'm not in uniform right now, doesn't mean I should be a Surrendercrat. We will do our young people no favor by letting the enemy win and encouraging them to fight future wars against us. Our reputation is very important, if we fight and finish off our enemies, future enemies will be much less eager to fight us, than if we just quit and give up the fight like we did in Vietnam.

#3922 Re: Not So Free Chat » North Korea Blew the NUKE !!! DPRK tests the bomb ? » 2006-11-04 09:41:31

I know Parisians are very fashion-consious, but what does clothing have to do with it, Jews have had no history of burning buses and cars or rioting have they?

Please, stop it with the press reports by sensasonalism hungry so-called reporters.
I go and teach science for kids in the socially ill Paris suburbs, I tell you that riots are mainly anticop led by jobless mixed ethnic guys

Excuse me, but I beg to differ, the Chirac Government has not been very capitalist oriented, it does not choose to call itself "socialist". Chirac's brand of conservatism has more to do with who he hates as opposed promoting market-oriented economic reforms.

You're wrong, each times he tryed, he's been pushed backward by massive rejection from population, ready for civil disobedience and huge strikes.

A sensible foreign policy. If they mind their own business, we mind ours. Countries that threaten US citizens either directly or indirectly aren't minding their own business and therefore we will tend to preempt where. necessary.

Then, with Iraq, the right target was missed, as you see now, there were more dangerous ennemies to contain

There always are, and their are always second guessers like yourself. When you preempt a threat, you never know the true magnitude of that threat since you never allowed it to manifest itself.

Suppose you were a soldier in World War I fighting to drive the Germans out of France who have invaded your country. You are dug in the trench lines, and their is this German corporal that is shooting at you. You shoot this corporal and meanwhile a rocket is launched from nearby it goes up and kills a dozen french soldiers, your commanding officer chews you out for shooting that corporal instead of the guy who launched the rocket who was considered the greater threat. Later on after some bloody fighting you overrun the enemy's lines and you find the body of that corporal you killed, A Corporal Adolf Hitler. In this alternate history you preempted a threat that you would never know about.

Of course Saddam Hussein is a lesser threat because we defeated him, in that we were successful. Saddam Hussein is not as great a threat as Al Qaeda because we defeated Saddam Hussein in this war, we have some other problems in Iraq, but Saddam Hussein's regime is toppled and gone, and because of us, it stands no chance of coming back. Iraq is a mess, that is true, but that is because the Iraq people are not helping us out. We are giving them plenty of help, but they are not helping themselves or their country, they seem to like killing each other, and each other is mostly who they kill, not us. The blood running in their streets is their fault. If surprised they would choose to ruin their country just to defeat the Bush Administration. Now if Bush wanted to save France, would you try to distroy it just because you didn't like Bush? That is the sort of stupidity we are dealing with in Iraq? History may write that the Iraqis were a bunch of dumb dumbs who the US tried to help but who instead prefered to destroy their country with factionalism, the big winners out of this will of course be the Kurds who will finally get an independent Kurdistan because of us. the Kurds have never bothered US troops, so I think they deserve at least that. Let the other Arabs who just want to fight Bush to make the Liberals happy, get what they deserve as well.

#3923 Re: Not So Free Chat » Froggy's » 2006-11-04 09:25:11

so often a map does no good in finding a way to you destination in this mess

Don't you have a GPS box witch tells you the way to go ?  :shock: Whaw, I thougt that the US were the most technologic peoples

Otherwise the purpose of a city is to minimize travel time by bringing a whole lot of places close together, but if it takes 15 minutes to travel around the block the advantage of closeness is negated.

There is about nothing I can't get within a 20' bike ride range, food hypermarket is there cross the Avenue, we call a taxi-van for heavy stuffs, in center of Paris, there's a metro station each 500 yards.
Less than 300 yards from my house, I have french, arab, chinese, italian, turkish, indian restaurants, some opened up to one AM, subway station at 100 yards, why should I need a car ?

You can also get run over by a car while you are riding your bike though traffic and the ambulance will have some difficulty getting to you because of the traffic and once the ambulance gets to you, it will take some time for it to take you to the hostipatl again because of the traffic, and meanwhile all this emergency activity will only slow down traffic that much more and the police block cars and take statements, the cars get stuck and can't get to where they are going, this will make them fume and more likely to drive like a baat out of Hell when traffic finally lets up to make up for lost time, and therefore risking collision with another hapless bicyclist. Also in New York City, bicyclists have a tendency to ride their bikes on sidewalks, and down the wrong way on one way streets, they tend to bolt from between cars forcing cars that suddenly see them come out of nowhere to slam on their breaks to avoid hitting them and may get rear-ended for their trouble. I think safety is better served by a smoothly flowing traffic system that includes cars.

I think the invention of the automobile has served one purpose; to allow people to live further apart from one another.

I'd hate to live without the Paris crowd of peoples easy contact[/QUOTE]
A crowd of people you can lose your children in, a crowd of people where pick pockets can bump into you and steal your wallet while you are momentarily distacted, then you have to cancel all your credit cards and replace all those stolen IDs with new ones, oh joy, I have had that experience.

Few views of the Paris district I live in
My girlfriend when swimming the dog (the dog loves to swim...)
St Martin Channel lifting bridge (We like it as it is, with it's XIXth Century technology, we don't want a new one)
The same lifted up http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c … _paris.jpg
Warm day and Paris Girls by St Martin Channel (a 100 pounds wheight average difference with US girls  wink )
Cars, bikers and pedestrians street room sharing (Walking and biking prevent obesity)
Second hand market day in my Paris district (You know what ? are these peoples are really nice..)
Saturday afternoon this summer, Parc des Buttes Chaumont, Paris (10' walk from my home, 5' bike riding)
My main transportation mean (I dont want a new one, it's personally customized)

IIt is safer for a population to be spread out rather than being packed in too.

When there are peoples chatting on the Avenue up to 2AM, then, we feel safer than when nobody's out

You are safer in some ways and less safe in others. If a terrorist wants to attack a crowd, you are more likely to be attacked if you are in the crowd. If you are in the woods, you may be attacked by a Grizzly bear and their would be no one to dial 911, of course it helps if you have a gun.

We live in a world with nuclear weapons, with all of us packed in together, we make it easier for one nuclear bomb to kill all of us.

I perfectly know which metro station is a shelter to a nuclear attack, and by the way, we dont live with these paranoïd thoughts

You can choose to ignore the danger, just like the people had who worked in the World Trade Center that morning on September 11, 2001, a date which most liberals would like to pretend never happened.

#3924 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-11-04 08:57:49

Who is 'us', the people of Palestine never attacked America that's where they get their charity cash - are you Israeli or something?

If they attack our allies, they are in essence attacking us. Unlike some other countries I shall not mention, we value our alliances, and we try to stick up for our allies when they are attacked, Vietnam being the exception forced upon us by the Democrats taking control of Congress in 1974. What holds alliances like NATO together is our committment to stand up for our allies. Do you prefer fickle allies that cut and run?

The Isreali media was giving the USA such a hard time for the operation in Iraq but look at where they are now. Isrealis didn't pull away from Lebanon because they achieved their goals or wanted peace, they backed away because their operation was a failure.

Because the US pressured them too because all the liberals in the World convinced George Bush that it was the right thing to do. I think it was a mistake for George Bush to cave into pressure from liberals who wanted peace at Israel's expense.

They dominated the air for a time, its ok being superior in the skies for a while but that's useless against a militia that's dug-in terrorist group hidden in tunnels and town areas. Former defense minister Moshe Arens spoke of "the defeat of Israel" in calling for a state committee of inquiry. He said that Israel had lost "to a very small group of people, 5000 Hezbollah fighters, which should have been no match at all for the IDF but Israel got their rears kicked.

I wouldn't say that the Israeli army was crushed or destroyed, they weren't driven out either, they pulled out under US pressure, as that was the only pressure they would listen to.

#3925 Re: Not So Free Chat » Bow Down Before Iran? » 2006-11-04 08:48:15

To be honest, I don't care what happens to Iraq,

So, don't you stance anymore that "us", as you say, meaning yourself, are interested in spreading democracy or welfare to any one in the world.
That's all pure propaganda at the boobies

but Israel didn't start this war.

They are at war as long as they violate the Palestinian's right to have a territory unmastered and uncolonised by the Israelis.
Wearing a kippa and bringing a Bible don't give any right to steal palestinian internationally recognized territory, and do not prevent from a fascist type behaviour.

France is in the same boat as the Israelis, like it or not, violence is in the streets of the West Bank and Gaza and violence is inthe streets of Paris. Look around you fella, do you really want to make friends with people who have terrorize parisians, rioted in the streets, burned cars, and suppressed yo0ur freedom of speech? Have the Israelis ever done that to your country? Why don't you make friends with people who don't attack you instead of those that do? Is being anti-American so important to you that you are willing to tolerate gangs of arab commiting arson in Parisian streets. The Israelis don't like these things either, why don't you make common cause with them as you are both on the side of civilization?

The problem with the Palestinians is that they can't stop fighting, they elect terrorists into their government and they go on killing and kidnapping Jews no matter what they agree to. When is enough going to be enough?

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