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I honestly don't know, Quaoar. An explosion-drive vehicle that size could certainly be built. What Isp it might have, I don't personally know how to calculate.
GW
I found in this site ( http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r … ject_Orion ) a the plans of USAF version of Orion: a 10 meters pusher plate spaceship with a predicted specific impulse of 3357 seconds. The project is very detailed: there is also the loading mechanism of pulse units.
The first colonies in the Americas were not necesarily in the best locations. It took a while to identify those. I believe we already have plenty of potential sites but space agencies tend to be a bit mute on this subject you might notice.
Yes, but even if the site was not ideal, they still had air to breath, rivers to find water, wild animals to hunt, woods to build wagons to move in other sites, and grass to feed their horses. And nevertheless there was a lot of failed attempt where all the colonists died.
On Mars they cannot find anything of these primary resources. You have to get your oxygen cracking water or atmospheric CO2, with machines that break and need spare parts. You have to extract your water from a glacier buried not too deep for your drilling machines (that also can break and need spare parts) and you move using pressurized rovers that also needs spare parts, you cannot find on the sands. And all of this devices need energy from solar panels that are not eternal.
The weakness in your argument is that we have very good data on lots of sites already through orbital observation and rover exploration.
You cannot bet the lives of astronauts without a ground truth: you can suppose that in Elysium Planitia there is a huge buried glacier and send a minimalist mission, where astronauts/colonists are suppose to support themselves and synthesize return propellant with locally extracted water, but if they discover that water is now evaporated or is buried too deep for their drilling machines.
No one would put humans on Mars without proper prospecting of a favoured site. If - for some reason - you discover a site you thought was good proved bad, then obviously you have to re-think the mission. But the idea it will take more than 2-4 years to determine that is ridiculous.
Basically a first mission needs a bit of solid flat ground. Not a lot more.
But to have a good prospection you have to send astronauts, so the firs mission has to relay on what you bring from Earth (even ISRU has to be based on imported LH2) and the firsts goals has to by science & exploration to select the best site for a permanent base.
I like very much GW's plans with an all-in-one exploration, prospection and colonization experiment.
I would be looking to minimise the complexity of any mission, whilst maximising ISRU. Therefore, for me, moving habs or even exploration is relatively low priority. If people want exploration, let them pay for it through commercial or scientific sponsorship.
You are interested in colonization, but how can you do it, without exploring many possible sites to find a reliable source of water?
Even ISRU will result better and better if you put your base on a buried glacier and use its water for synthesize propellant. But to find the ideal place you have to explore before.
Bombardier beetle has a natural hydroquinones-H2O2 pulse detonation rocket used for self-defense.
An Italian team is copying this natural rocket, for a lightweight green propellant pulse detonation rocket for satellites.
P.S. It's improbable we will find fossil on Mars, but we cannot exclude it a priori. So it will be better if the geologist will be also trained as a paleontologists.
It's also important medical/biologist and another astronaut will have some training in dental care: in a more than two year mission it may be very useful.
As an SF writer I like cloud cities because they are cool. But in reality, before talking about the technical possibility of colonizing Venus atmosphere, we have to find a good reason to do it.
Why have we to go to Venus?
A human mission on surface, if technically possible with atmospheric pressure suits and Stirling coolers, will be only a very short flag and footprints.
If we think to build floating bases to harvest atmospheric CO2 and use it as a source of fuel and plastic materials, we can do the same things still in orbit, without coping with sulfuric acid clouds and risking to fall down in a 400°C/100 bar inferno.
It will be different if we will be able to develop surface mines and factories: in this case a cloud city can be e valuable connection between Venus surface and orbit. Surface mines and factories has to be full automatized, controlled by high temperature resistant machines.
In a future, it will be also conceivable to implant on Venus surface some sort of synthetic life, based on fluorocarbons, especially projected to grow-up at 400°C in a CO2 environment.
Cloud cities will be build by machines (or synthetic beans) using locally mined materials and will serve as a connection with orbital habitats.
Well, is fusion safer and cheaper than fission?
Who knows! It's very hard to speculate on such technologies because they don't exist. I would imagine that, unless the program were run more effectively, Shuttle SERV would have been just as expensive as the Shuttle that was actually developed.
Capsule entry is less critical than spaceplane. And for orbital ascent, SERV have not to bring up heavy wings, so its payload would be almost 50 metric tons. I don't know if the refurbishing of its 12 rockets will be so expensive as SSME.
Very interesting SSTO, it was proposed in 1971 as an alternative to the Space Shuttle. The SERV is a gigantic capsule (27.4 meters diameter and 23.3 meters height) that take off vertically with 12 aerospike LOX-LH2 rockets. It reenter like and Apollo capsule and land vertically using 28 turbojet engines, added to enhance cross range capability.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. … 010131.pdf
It was discarded because USAF wants a spaceplane capable of return at the base after one polar orbit, like Space Shuttle was (erroneously) supposed to do.
Would it be safer and more cheep than space shuttle?
Website of the manufacturer, Molniya: MAKS
It was an interesting craft. 3 variants: MAKS-OS was a medium shuttle with expendable external tank, cockpit for 2 astronauts, plus cargo bay to carry 8.3 metric tonnes to 200km orbit @ 51° inclination. MAKS-T had an expendable cargo pod with expendable engines, and separate expendable external tank, able to lift 18 tonnes to the same orbit. Or MAKS-M was an unmanned shuttle with tank contained within the orbiter, so nothing expendable. It was able to lift 5.5 metric tonnes to the same orbit. All launched from the back of an AN-225 aircraft, so could launch from any airport that could service that aircraft. All used a pair of RD-701 engines that would burn all three propellants RP-1/LH2/LOX for boost phase, then the same engines would transition to bipropellant LH2/LOX for upper trajectory.
http://buran.ru/images/gif/maxshem3.gif
Very impressive. An RD-701 like tripropellant engine may be also interesting for a reusable orbit to orbit spaceship to Mars: using LOX-LH2 at departure and LOX-RP1 at return, avoiding troubles in storing LH2 for two years.
Would you want to send two biologists on a four crew mission, though? I would expect to be sending a biologist and a geologist, if we're sending "two Spocks". Sure, you don't get the resiliency that comes from having two doctors, but if you're having such a small crew, you can't have a backup for every major but not mission critical job.
I intended five people with two pilot engineers, two MD trained in molecular biology and biochemistry and a geologist. If we have to reduce the number to four, only one MD/biologist, two pilot engineers and a geologist. All the astronauts have to be cross trained in paramedics, piloting, geology and basic lab technics.
Re. doctor - you're probably going to be sending a biologist, and it's not going to be hard to find a biologist who has retrained as a doctor, and who also wants to go to Mars. I know some universities do 4 year medical degrees for people who have got a good degree in a biological science, so you could even send your biologist to go get a medical degree, if you're picking the crew 5-6 years before they launch.
It just seems dumb to not pick a biologist-doctor for the team
There are a lot of medical doctors who are also very well trained in biochemistry and molecular biology base research: if you send on Mars two of them, they can perform research on microbial alien life and also take care of other astronauts, aided by Earth based specialists.
Actually it has much more to offer than the Moon. The only property of the Moon, that would be more favorable to humans would be proximity to Earth.
I think the methods mentioned would have great potential to support a large number of humans at a high standard of living. Which is really what you want when you hunt for a place to set up shop.
All that's missing is the human transport method, and the proper tool set.
For the moment the best suited for a large colony is the Orion Drive, but in a future, investing on it, I think we can build a miniaturized version with magnetic nozzle and mini-pulse unit with a laser driven hohlraum or a magnetic compression (mini mag Orion? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-Mag_Orion ) as a primary and fusion-fission hybrid as secondary and tertiary.
This will have less political problems, because the pulse units cannot be considered bombs, needing an external device to implode.
Actually laser are very inefficent, but there are some interesting research in high efficiency laser that reach 75% of optical power conversion.
I think for Mercury may be good some kind of underground habitat like Asimov's Caves of Steel: we may build it on the poles, with central led array powered by solar panels mounted on peaks of eternal light. The interior can have an Earth like atmosphere with woods and lakes.
MAKS was also very interesting it would be propelled by RD-701 LOX-RP1-LH2 tripropellant rocket: a 300 atmosphere rocket that changing mixture ratio with altitude.
Esa IXV has not wing and it's a pure lifting body: it is correct to call it spaceplane or it has to be called something like lifting body entry vehicle?
The Orion explosion drive is a really oddball piece of physics. It works more efficiently the bigger your ship. For the small vehicle NASA looked at that would take a small crew to Mars, it didn't look that much different from the nuke thermal rocket. That's where your numbers like 1850 sec come from.
In much larger sizes is where numbers like 10,000 sec or 20,000 sec come from. The baseline design of 1959 was 280 feet long, 185 ft diameter, and about 10,000 tons at launch. That goes with 10,000 sec Isp, and T/W around 2 to 4. Bigger still is where the 20,000 sec Isp comes from: above 20,000 tons.
GW
With better understanding of pusher plate ablation and jet collimation, and miniaturizing the pulse units using the status of the art of three stage nukes, it will be possible to build a quite efficient lightweight space corvette in the range of 1000 tons of dry mass, with 5000-6000 s of specific impulse?
Hi Quaoar:
Yep, Orion-drive vessels would be made of steel, and closer to plate than sheet metal, too. Some of it would be heavy armor plate. At the time, they thought these things would be build in a shipyard, pretty much the way heavy naval war vessels are/were built.
GW
In case of rebirth with modern material technology, which material would you use today?
If we ever go back to spaceships of steel construction (such as a nuclear explosion drive vessel), magnetic boots might once again provide a solution, especially if the magnetism can be turned off and on, as in an electromagnet.
GW
The hull of an Orion-drive propelled spaceship was all made in steel?
Orion seems to me the best propulsion system we have at the moment: in a future we can avoid giving uranium to civilians having transport spaceships with military crews and civilian passengers and merchants who rent the cargo bay space for their goodies.
The estimate specific impulse of the conceptual vehicles was: 1850 s for a 10 m pusher plate diameter spaceship, with 3.5 MN of thrust and up to 390,000 kg of dry mass and 3150 s for a 20 m pusher plate diameter spaceship, with 16 MN of thrust and up to 390 MT of dry mass and up to 2,000,000 kg of dry mass.
This using conventional nukes modified for propulsion. According to the authors, using new nukes especially projected for propulsion, with full optimized collimation of plasma jet on the pusher plate, an Orion drive can reach an Isp up to 20,000 seconds.
I guess you never heard of the Dynamak Reactor.
http://www.americansecurityproject.org/ … n-reactor/
It is about the size of a small truck.
Bussard's Polywell has the size of a washing machine and Lerner's DPF is even smaller, but first we have to see if they works.
Why would it be, if fusion was available, why burn coal. Coal is a lot bulkier than fusion fuel I would expect fusion to be everywhere if it was available for spaceships, coal fired plants are simply less efficient.
We still don't know if fusion will be available and the hypothetical reactor will be economic and lightweight enough. Another possibility are the hybrid fission-fusion reactors: in this case sub break-even huge magnetic confinement reactor are coupled with thorium-uranium power plant. Hybrid plant are fixed and lightweight fission rocket use U233 produced by plants.
I surely hope Bussard's Polywell eventually will work and we will have fantastic water propelled QED rocket with high thrust and 2000-3000 s of specific impulse, but how can we know?
Think is you can detect kinetic kill devices approaching, its velocity gives it away, a nuke by contrast is not what it seems, it can be smuggled into a city and detonated, the only way a kinetic kill device works is if it is fired at high velocity, you can't do this from inside a city.
By virtue of its kinetic energy, the thing is, a kinetic kill device makes a lousy surprise weapon, you can always see the kinetic kill missile approaching with the right detection system.
It's not so simple: everything traveling at a relative velocity more than 3 km/s has a kinetic energy greater than its weight in TNT. So a spaceship can launch multiple rubbish object, that may be difficult to localize and intercept.
You guys are having a nice argument. But I would like to point out development of NERVA was completed so far in 1974 that the next step was to test it in Earth orbit. There was nothing left to do before that. All testing before testing in space was finished.
And now we have even better materials like carbon-carbon composite and uranium tricarbide fuel wafers that can be arranged in honeycomb square lattice able to work up to 3300 K, or assembled in stacks of grooved fuel rings.
http://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/E0/0 … gouw_r.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. … 008640.pdf
If we want we are able to develop in 10-15 years a Copernicus like spaceship, with artificial gravity and high performance rockets with more than 1000s of Isp.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. … 003776.pdf
SEP is good for unmanned space tugs in the inner solar system, but if we want to go to Jupiter and Saturn, nuclear rockets are a must.
Nukes in civilian hands is not going to happen. The proliferation of nuclear weapons is of great concern, it is bad enough when only nations have them, but what about individuals? My guess is commercial fusion reactors will be available, probably magnetic confinement fusion. Deuterium and tritium will be fused to make helium-4 and to get different thrust levels, the exhaust will be mixed with plain hydrogen, the more hydrogen, the greater the thrust, the less hydrogen the greater the ISP. My feeling is there will be one kind of rocket used to take off from a planet's surface, a fusion powered Nerva rocket, the exhaust of this rocket will be hotter than a Saturn V, but will be almost pure hydrogen, this will produce the multi-g thrust required to get off a planet's surface, and once in orbit a lower thrust but more efficient fusion drive will be used to travel around the Solar System, I believe it would take 1 to 2 weeks to get to Mars from Earth. Otherwise a space elevator may be used.
I doubt that magnetic confinement fusion reactors will be lightweight enough to be placed inside spaceships. They are very massive and needs huge waste heat radiators to cope with neutron heating, so a fusion propelled spaceship will have at the best a thrust just a little better than electric propulsion, unless we will be able to make pure fusion mini-bombs, like Project Dedalus pellets. But at the moment we don't have fusion, so hard fiction writers are forced to use fission, chemicals of solar electric propulsion.
Military nuclear warheads make a lot of damage if detonated in a planet atmosphere, but, if detonated in space, are not so dangerous like a 500-1000 tons spaceship impacting at 10-20 km/s. So in an Earth centered scenario you are perfectly right in not giving Orion Pulse Units to civilians.
But in my scenario, Earth is declined, poor and polluted and most part of mankind live in rich and beautiful space habitats, in Earth Moon Lagrange points, on Moon, Mars and Mercury (poles) surface, in Venus and Mars orbit, around the Main Belt's asteroids, and the moons of gas giants. So these guys, born and grown-up in an artificial space habitat and never been on Earth, will probably fear a kinetic kill more than a nuke strike.
The real problem is that a spaceship is a WMD, even without nuke, by only its kinetic energy, so if private civilians can buy spaceship, the risk for the habitats remains.
So the question in my opinion is not "private Orion or not private Orion", but "private spaceship or not private spaceship".
As an hard fiction writer, I was looking for a good but realistic propulsion system for the spaceships of my next space opera.
I was skeptical about Orion, but I was captured by this very cool short movie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCrPNEsQaY
after I read this old document,
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r … 09vIII.pdf
where every potential problem of Orion Drive is very well addressed, from thrust vectoring control to pusher plate protection and shock-adsorbers cooling...
It seems it can really works, so I decided to open a topic about it.
We can minimize fall-out, using a very large metal plate at the base of the launch pad or taking of from Antarctic with conventional solid boosters and fire the Orion just outside the atmosphere, or assembling it in LEO or (in a future) building it on the Moon.
But I'm interested in exploring a future hypothetical scenario, were humanity is spread-out in the solar system where has built thousands of space habitat from Venus to main belt asteroids, gas giant's moons and KBO and ground habitats in Mars and in Mercury poles. Peoples travels from Mercury to the Kuiper belt using Orion propelled spaceship. So even private space ship owners can buy pulse units, that are very poor nuclear warheads, but still contain weapon grade uranium.
One can think that this kind of society is a bit unrealistic, because every religious fanatic or psychopath can arrange a nuke, but the real problem is that even without uranium, a spaceship with a high performance propulsion system is a weapon of mass destruction per se.
Imagine a 300 ton spaceship impacting with a space habitat at 10-12 km/s: it does a lot more damage than a poor 1 kiloton Orion's pulse unit, theft from the habitat service station.
So, how can we have a stable society and use 4000-7000 Isp spaceships?
We can image a lot of countermeasures like autonomous killing vehicles that intercept spaceships in collision course before they hit the habitat, sealed magazines for the pulse units, that can be opened only by uranium guild guys or something like that...
An alternative is a space transport system controlled by military, with Orion propelled space-liners with civil passengers and cargo, but navy crews, but this is more boring...
Have you some ideas?
There might be a reason to use an Orion Drive. With the Cold War heating up between the US and Russia and the US and ISIS! Suppose this Cold War simply gets worse and worse, Russia closes up, and the ISIS radicals think God is on their side and they build more and more nuclear weapons, thinking to conquer the World with Allah's help. It could be that all they'll end up doing is destroying most of mankind, it being just a matter of time before they build enough weapons to accomplish this task. They launch a massive strike against Western countries and rely on Allah to shield them from the Wests nuclear retaliation. Of course Allah doesn't shield them, all the religion managed to do is shield them from fears of nuclear retaliation by the West, and so therefore they feel free to strike with impunity, or so they think. My greatest fear is of having an Islamic superpower with tens of thousands of nukes, run by a Muslim fanatic, that thinks he is on God's mission to wipe Western Civilization from the face of the Earth.
So in such an event, we need to build an Ark. There was a television series based on this premise, although that one supposed the mission was launched somehow in the early 1960s. I think such a mission would be more plausible in the 2060s. Ascension was the name of the miniseries. So by the 2060s, do you think we'll be in any position to launch any sort of space ark, and if so, to what destination? Suppose there is no hope for mankind, a nuclear superpower is determined to wage nuclear jihad against us, is not deterred by our nukes, and will not come to the peace table for anything short of our total surrender and submission to Islam. That is the scenario! We might need to build a space ark in order for humanity to survive this.
Ark may be a solution, but in this scenario it would be better to nuke them before they grow-up.