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#28976 Re: Human missions » Has Dr. Zubrin Addressed Mars Direct Objections? - A few questions? » 2004-12-16 08:11:51

There have been a couple of points in this thread that has talked about the use of aerobraking the vehicles into mars orbit.

Andrews Space, Inc. Wins Contract to Flight Test a Variable-Drag Ballute

A Ballute is a pressure-stabilized, inflatable membrane that provides a large, blunt, high-drag surface for aerobraking systems. Ballutes offer significant advantages over rigid shells for aerocapture and reentry of spacecraft by providing simplified packaging and lower total weight.

Another use for inflatables?  ??? Very simular to the one the russians are working on under the technology thread.

#28977 Re: Unmanned probes » Mars Science Laboratory (MSL) - rover » 2004-12-16 07:44:38

More details on the Russian effort to get in on this.
Russian Space Agency to Supply Equipment for NASA’s Mars Rover

MSL will carry a pulsed neutron source and detector for measuring hydrogen (including water), provided by the Russian Federal Space Agency.

The project also will include a meteorological package and an ultraviolet sensor provided by the Spanish Ministry of Education and Science.

#28978 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Organic solar cells - Wieghs less and is flexible » 2004-12-16 07:37:51

Follow up story:
UD work to make solar panels for use in space

The university's Institute for Energy Conversion will get about $350,000 from NASA to perfect a solar panel made with plastic that can stand up to the rigors of space travel.

NASA picked several teams of researchers to develop new technologies that can be used for another proposed mission to the moon and, eventually, Mars.

#28979 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Fastest Space Storm - ...On Record Plows through Solar System » 2004-12-16 07:35:08

Update to this story:
Scientists find atmospheric erosion
This was something I know I had speculated to under another thread with regards to why Mars may have lost most of its atmosphere.
So much for the protective radiation belts that reside between 4000 to 8000 miles from Earth.

Edit:
Earth's Safe Zone Became Hot Zone During Legendary Solar Storms

Space weather matters -- we now know that no matter what orbit we choose, there is the possibility that a spacecraft could get blasted by a significant dose of radiation. We need to take this into account when designing spacecraft. We also need to the ability to continuously monitor space weather so satellite operators can take protective measures during solar storms

solar-earth-plasmasphere-expansion-bg.jpg

#28980 Re: Human missions » Return to flight slipping » 2004-12-16 07:05:25

Ex-engineer fears shuttle loss, Don Nelson urges panel to push crew escape system

The lack of an escape system "will lead to the loss of another crew," said Don Nelson, a 36-year NASA veteran engineer who worked at Johnson Space Center and closely with Marshall Space Flight Center engineers during his career.

Nelson estimates a crew escape system could be placed on NASA's remaining three shuttle orbiters for about $3.8 billion.

Crew escape systems were part of all NASA spacecraft until the space shuttle was designed in the early 1970s. Engineers felt shuttle technology could be made so reliable that an escape system would be useless.

During the original shuttle design, we looked at a crew escape system, but it would have been too heavy. We thought that technology would do the job and make the shuttle orbiter into an airliner.

#28981 Re: Human missions » Has Dr. Zubrin Addressed Mars Direct Objections? - A few questions? » 2004-12-16 05:58:18

So the ship in orbit around mars would have carried just the hydrogen or methane from earth, while the lox would come from Mars insitu Co2 cracking for the return trip. If the Co is kept for other uses rather than releasing into the atmosphere making things more toxic to any crew on the planet or colonization efforts in future years, ok.

#28982 Re: Human missions » - - CEV RFP - One comment » 2004-12-16 05:49:48

So the real economic problem is the cost of the standing army of shuttle workers. Are they really idle, with no work or is there simply to much to work on for each of these shuttle orbiters?

If the answer is idle then I must ask where are the managers that would redirect there staff to other projects? They are definitely no managing cost by not taking action.

If the orbiter is the problem then why have improvements not been made to elevate all or most of this work to reduce costs as well. Then again where are the engineering managers on this issue.

#28983 Re: Human missions » The need for a Moon direct *2* - ...continue here. » 2004-12-16 05:42:13

It is not just a matter of moving mass but also of saving the resources that are fuels and oxygen that get brought from Earth or from the insitu creation of these.

#28984 Re: Human missions » More ISS hardball - How does this affect US vision? » 2004-12-16 05:39:29

Protectionism does reduce the total global wealth, but not nessesarrily national wealth. If the aim is to maximize national wealth then it is a nessarry measure. Especially in cases where foreign governments conspire against American companies (see EADS vs Boeing tanker deal).

The sad part of this is that we may have already seen just this type of action with in the Electronics manufacturing industry.

Standardization does not work both ways if one company can offer a useable product at a small fraction of the cost. If Russia were permitted to pit Zenit-II versus Atlas-V, or Angara versus Delta-IV, and Congress demanded that NASA save money... what do you think would happen?

Very good question definitely would force the pork barreling to stop.

The American launchers would be, as the USAF puts it, "down selected." Government procurement regulations are choc full of policies that require it to use the lowest cost provider. If the Government wouldn't eliminate the US rockets, then the rocket builders would eliminate themselves since there would be unable to compete.

Down sizing is not a bad thing if there are dozens to select from but when the only games in town can not provide the needed equipment. Then we are in the state that we are in with the shuttle problem an area with nothing to do the job..

Then the worst is we must now pay for the ride by some means or simply no ride.

#28985 Re: Human missions » Has Dr. Zubrin Addressed Mars Direct Objections? - A few questions? » 2004-12-15 14:43:56

Here is a modified thought for another board that the one in the same Bwhite had I think but here is the thought any ways.

By the way, Robert Zubrin is now a vocal proponent of using lunar oxygen to fuel direct return flights to Earth. Land a large vessel with a methane fuel supply but no LOX. This allows a much larger lunar payload and presence and will test equipment that can be used for Mars.

How about making the lander use the martian atmosphere though some sort of intake to mix with a fuel that would use the martian air as an oxidizer. This would save on the mass. You might need to carry a little synthetic oxidizer tank but could save on the down mass by not needing to carry all of it.

#28986 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Deep Impact Crashing mission - Comet Tempel 1 target » 2004-12-15 14:06:55

All the more reason to have alternative launch site all over the world not just in Florida. sad

#28987 Re: Unmanned probes » Opportunity & Spirit **8** - ...More... » 2004-12-15 13:42:38

Pasted from Astronotes:

Mars Rover Eyes Foreign Object

Fresh from some six months of driving inside Endurance Crater, the Opportunity Mars rover now has a piece of foreign space hardware in its sights.

After successfully climbing out of the stadium-sized crater, engineers are now steering the robot toward a part of the spacecraft’s entry hardware. The discarded gear tumbled to the surface of Mars, part of the landing equipment that protected the rover from its heated plunge through Mars’ atmosphere in January.

h_oppor_remains1215_01.jpg

Opportunity Mars rover is wheeling toward a discarded section of its entry, descent, and landing system. Image Credit: NASA/JPL/Cornell (Click to Enlarge)


The rover’s trek to the nearby heat shield is on its driving trajectory this week, confirmed Guy Webster, a spokesman for the Mars rover project at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL) in Pasadena, California.

A goal of Mars scientists is to inspect the deepest, freshly dug hole known on the red planet. Meanwhile, spacecraft engineers are itching to assess just how well the heat shield withstood its fiery fall through the Martian atmosphere. Photos sent back could be helpful in designing or testing future heat shield designs.

Wheeling itself across Meridiani Planum, Opportunity remains in excellent health with its solar power meter nearly as high now as it was at the start of its Mars mission.

-- Leonard David

#28988 Re: Unmanned probes » Neptune Orbiter with Probes - ...part of NASA's "Vision Missions" » 2004-12-15 13:39:28

Reaching Toward Neptune: Two Ways to Explore an Ice Giant

In the separate studies, planetary scientists and engineers are drawing up plans to send an orbiter laden with atmospheric probes and landers to Neptune, the eighth planet from the Sun. While each mission has its own way of reaching Neptune, both seek a better understanding of the planet and its surrounding 13 known moons, especially the oddball Triton.

Neptune's largest moon Triton, which astronomers believe is a non-native captive of its parent planet. It circles Neptune in a retrograde orbit, in the opposite direction of Neptune's rotation. It has a gossamer thin atmosphere where parachutes would be useless for any landing probe.

As noted previously in order to achive a decent timeline it will probably steal from the prometheus propulsion and may actually fly first instead of the JIMO mission.

#28989 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Deep Impact Crashing mission - Comet Tempel 1 target » 2004-12-15 13:28:26

Saw that this morning, it is real disappointing that Boeing can not launch anything on time lately. Hopefully it will not miss the window for launch and if it does they need to look for a new target.

#28990 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Organic solar cells - Wieghs less and is flexible » 2004-12-15 12:37:44

Solar cells that are flexible and light would be a tool for the future of space travel.
Georgia Tech Developing Efficient Organic Solar Cell

The silicon and organic photovoltaic groups are working together at Georgia Tech to accelerate the development of cost-effective solar cells to solve the energy and environmental problems simultaneously and reduce our dependence on foreign oil

#28991 Re: Human missions » More ISS hardball - How does this affect US vision? » 2004-12-15 11:42:07

Russia says USA not pulling its weight on International Space Station project

We proposed making the new Russian Kliper spacecraft and the American manned research spacecraft completely compatible and interchangeable at all fundamental stages of space flight

I am surprised with this one statement on wanting interchangability of parts. I wonder just which ones or if it means all. It would help to lower all space costs but would that require each nation having a counter part factory for manufacturing of these in each others nation to build like items.

More Jobs?

#28992 Re: Human missions » Long duration Human space missions - Can we survive them? » 2004-12-15 08:33:42

Possible solutions are to create a magnetic bubble around the ship, much like the one that surround our fair planet Earth. But how to do it has been the question.

A Magnetosphere of One's Own

A group of scientists has built a $10 million device that mimics the magnetic fields surrounding the Earth and other planets. The scientists hope to use the device to understand how the Earth's protective magnetosphere works -- and possibly gain insights into how to make fusion a feasible energy source.

This experiment is the first time a high-temperature magnetosphere has been constructed in a lab, said professor Michael Mauel, co-head of the experiment and chair of Columbia University's Department of Applied Physics and Applied Mathematics.

#28993 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Inflatable space parachute or escape pod - Just another use inflatable technology? » 2004-12-15 08:27:04

Wow inflatables can be used almost every where. Might be used for cargo or escape pod return. A blending of the Habitat and the shuttle tps cloths as it were for a novel use.

inflatable.vlarge.jpg

This artist's conception shows an inflatable re-entry shield descending to Earth. Russian and European engineers are working together on a project to develop such shields, known as Inflatable Re-entry and Descent Technology

Russians keep working on ‘space parachute’

Partial successes
In February 2000, a flight test of what Russian space engineers call the “space parachute” came close to success. The garbage-can-sized hardware flew as a free piggyback payload on the first orbital test of the Fregat, a new upper stage for Russia’s Soyuz rocket. After reaching orbit, the Fregat stage then dove back into the atmosphere.

The Demonstrator-1 payload separated from the upper stage and inflated its ring of balloons. Tracked by Russian air defense radars, the vehicle descended as planned, surviving the extreme temperatures and enduring a maximum force of 15 G’s. It landed near Orenburg in the southern Urals, about 30 miles (50 kilometers) past the aim point. A secondary balloon failure left it somewhat scorched, but intact.

#28994 Re: Not So Free Chat » O'Keefe Resigns :: Zubrin Should Apply for the Job - Wanted: New NASA Chief » 2004-12-15 05:43:53

The only trouble I see for space tourism use by any one will be in the form of maintance of the station. What happens when you need a gyro or an new solar panel or other large items to large for anything but a shuttle, What then?

#28995 Re: Human missions » Post central for information on CEV 2 - ...continue here. » 2004-12-15 05:33:03

BWhite:
Which means some astronauts will visit the Moon towards 2020 and then, what?

First why so long to go to the moon?

reply,GCNRevenger:
Well, I think that depends on if the Moon is good for anything. If its decided that Lunar precious metals or He3 or something are worth digging up, which I doubt, then the next step would be to establish a Lunar ice mining or oxide cracking operation and develop RLVs for both ends of the trip and reuseable TLI/TEI stages...

Then how many trips before we start mining or what would be insitu use processing?

#28996 Re: Not So Free Chat » O'Keefe Resigns :: Zubrin Should Apply for the Job - Wanted: New NASA Chief » 2004-12-14 10:32:00

Tow the Iss in pieces to Mars orbit on first few missions packed full to the brim with anything we might need once there.

#28997 Re: Human missions » - - CEV RFP - One comment » 2004-12-14 10:08:20

Had posted the reference and then some under the cev thread a few days ago: Post central for information on CEV 2

There are some new documents out for the CEV.
Shades of Apollo all the way...

Crew Exploration Vehicle Request for Proposal Statement of Work

Draft Statement of Work (sow)
Or try this page

Comment from Frank Sietzen:

The CEV will be part of a Crew Transportation System (CTS) that consists of the CEV, the CEVLV, and a launch escape system.

The CEV shall dock in Earth orbit with the Earth Departure Stage (EDS)

The CEV shall be capable of rendezvous and docking with the Lunar Surface Access Module (LSAM), which appears to perform the same function as the Apollo Lunar Module.

The CEV propulsive capability must be capable of returning the spacecraft from lunar orbit to re entry and landing on Earth.

The CEV shall utilize either parachutes or parafoils.

The CEV structure may include wheels or landing gear

The total weight of the spacecraft is undetermined

The initial crew size will be no less than four

The CEV shall contain a health monitoring system, a galley, and a waste management facility.

Launch escape capability must include on-the-pad, throughout the complete booster ascent, and Earth orbit in the event of a failure of the EDS.

A separate RFP SOW and description will detail the requirements of the CTS booster.

Nasa Announcement page
CEV synopsis

#28998 Re: Unmanned probes » Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO) » 2004-12-14 09:28:57

The 2005 Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter will search for evidence that water persisted on the surface of Mars for a long period of time. While other missions have shown that water flowed across the surface in Mars' history, the mystery remains of whether water was ever present long enough for life.

Sort of hard to do from orbit, Life is not in the atmosphere.

Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter will increase tenfold the number of spots surveyed close up, and will identify obstacles that could jeopardize the safety of future landers and rovers.

One of the cameras is the largest ever flown on a planetary mission and will be able to look at small-scale areas, perfect for identifying small features.

A must for the safety of any crew landing or probe agreed.

The orbiter's telecommunications system will establish a crucial service for future spacecraft. This "interplanetary Internet" can be used by numerous international spacecraft.

Another plus especially if telerobotics is used in any way to prepare the way for the future of manned flight to the red planet.

SHARAD (Shallow Radar)
This sounding radar will probe beneath the Martian surface to see if water ice is present at depths greater than one meter.

Another must for the long term colonization and of cost lowering for Mars manned missions.

#28999 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » Large Binocular Telescope » 2004-12-14 08:07:23

Work Begins on Magellan Giant Telescope

The Giant Magellan Telescope (GMT) will be the world's largest observatory it is scheduled to be completed in 2016.

The GMT will have ten times the resolution of the Hubble Space Telescope.

With its powerful resolution and enormous collecting area, the GMT will be able to probe the secrets of planets that have formed around other stars in the Milky Way, peer back in time toward the Big Bang with unprecedented clarity, delve into the nature of dark matter and dark energy, and explore the formation of black holes—the most important questions in astronomy today.


2004-1213magellan-full.jpg

#29000 Re: Science, Technology, and Astronomy » The Millau Highway Bridge » 2004-12-14 06:39:16

Is this in France? It is quite beautiful this scenery of the valley and all the green vegitation very peaceful.

Looks like if you put windmills on each you could get lots of free power from this location.

Edit just found news article France opens world's tallest bridge Chirac praises 1.6-mile roadway as a 'prodigy of art'

The Millau bridge will enable motorists to take a drive through the sky — 891 feet above the Tarn River valley for 1.6-mile stretch through France’s Massif Central mountains.

The $523 million bridge was commissioned to open a new north-south link between Paris and the Mediterranean and is expected to relieve bottlenecks caused by trucks and tourists headed to the Riviera.

Toll fees for motorists will vary from $6.50 in winter and $8.62 in summer. Trucks will have to pay $32.24 year-round.

And we can not find the money for the CEV
sad

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