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LO
The West is not in danger of being destroyed by al Qaeda. Okay, they desire that but they lack the means.
You're much too omptimistic.
Destroy "The West", definitively not, but with little means, there can be tremendous wastes with sarin, anthrax, botulism, pleague, some students in biology can make a lab in a cellar, or even dirty nukes.
former CIA analyst Marc Sageman estimates the number of radical Muslims who can and would do significant harm to the US in the hundreds.
I know that most can't and wouldn't, but the number still seems a little low. I would be more inclined to guess in the thousands. But that's just a guess, without much of anything to back it up.
Agree, from Indonesia to Europe, several tenth of thousands would seem more appropriate a number.
I believe where Bill is coming from is pointing out the continuing PR disaster that is the War on Terrorism.
"War on Terrorism" is among the most stupid concepts I've ever heard,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jh … op.html]Is Big Brother watching us ?
grrrr. must. stay. in. closet. grrrr.[sigh]
Short of paper ? :shock:
How does a family with a child needing costly treatments or people with handicapping desease manage to pay their "own expenses"
For one thing, costs would drop for treatments just as they do with any medical procedure that isn't covered by insurance. Now granted, there are a number of conditions that can't be treated cheaply, not because of expense but because medical science has yet to find a solution.
To use your examples, the costly treatment for the sick child will not be nearly as costly with government/insurance cut out and market forces applied and let's be honest here, many of those with "handicapping diseases" can't be helped by modern medical science anyway. All that can be done is to make them more comfortable, barring some breakthrough. (...)
Chatchatchat, thanks, Cobra, Bravo! as we say in France, you have a remarquable art to "drown the fish" :mrgreen: i.e. not to frankly answer a simple question wich is: how do peoples with low incomes do to have necessary cares they can't afford ?
You should start a political career, bright future promised
LO
But if everyone covers their own expenses, prices come down and each individual can decide for themselves what level of risk is acceptable. That old freedom thing again.
From Ancient Greece up to the XIXth century, tradition for Doctors was to ask high fees to rich patients, or ask them donations so they could take care of the poors for cheap or free, following the Hipocrates Oath. Some equivalent behaviours in Asia.
Now, Doctors in Medecine mostly don't care about.
How does a family with a child needing costly treatments or people with handicapping desease manage to pay their "own expenses"
You just let them die for "that old freedom" ?
Or do you call "freedom" some return to jungle laws where the weak must die and the strong survive ?
Better watch out, someday some more powerful than you could treat you as a prey in the kind of world you defend.
LO
Must realize that before 1947, many Jews lived peacefully in many arab countries, as for instance in Morroco where Jews thrown out of Spain found refuge, and where there have never been any pogrom unlike in Europe.
After 1947, Israel made everything to attract the Jews which were living in arab countries. then the former hosts of these Jews saw them take weapons at other Arabs. So, in many arab countries, Jews from Europe are seen as caucasian western invaders while oriental Jews were seen as disgusting betrayers.
LO
The exact rhetorics Bush and Blair brain trust invented to avoid further questions about the consequences their politics.
*No, actually -- believe it or not -- those are my thoughts.
Unlike a large majority of the Brits :
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/polls/st … 91,00.html
So what turned peoples into fanatics ?
Fundamental religion and its attendant intolerances and bigotries.
Peoples are not naturally intolerant and bigot, there must be a background for.
I mean that they can be so in their own life, that do not spread to the others. The Koran is supposed to tell that Jews and Christians are to be respected.
Terrorism leaders manipulate the populace bigotry, but mainly the social despair to recruit and to turn to peoples to fanatism and serve political aims that have little to see with religion.
This is the case in Egypt where fundies provide social help, "education" and care to the poors.
This spreads a fudamentalist pressure into the middle classes in which peoples feel they are obliged to look like ordinary people, otherwise they would be endangered in their day to day life.
Egypt is now falling in same type of civil war as Algeria 10 years ago.
Algeria is just overcoming thanks to the oil price rise that gives means to its government to improve the standarts of living, but Egypt has no oil.
Trying to spread democracy to some countries without massive economic help would turn them into tough "islamic republics".
One problem is that if they compare military spendings in Iraq with the economic help given to them, they will regard it as an obscenity.
In Europe, we are facing aculturation of the immigation origin youth which rediscovers muslim religion with a distorted look.
French authorities have chosen to organise a "french" islam with the french centralized tradition: soon there will be a "National Ulemas School", only licenced students will be permitted to preach in mosquees. Any un authorized preacher will be banned or prosecuted.
LO
I still think we should have stayed the course in Afghanistan.
We have. We don't hear much about it largely because it's going reasonably well. Still there, staying the course.
Reasonably :? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4717905.stm
Last time evangelists knocked at my door, I said them "Out ! no communists here !"
before slamming the door to their noses.
I really hate them.
hoars? = whores
So what's the correct word for prostitutes ? :oops:
The phonetics (vocal sounds) are correct for "hoars" but the spelling is whores.
Thanks to improve my correct english
hoars? = whores
So what's the correct word for prostitutes ? :oops:
1. I still think we should have stayed the course in Afghanistan.
We have. We don't hear much about it largely because it's going reasonably well. Still there, staying the course.
Quite not enough means and money, talibans are still active and many places along the pakistanese border are without any control. Still too much opium production, and with no poverty decline and jobs rise, the population might turn to talibans again.
The Muslim fellow who sells DomPanic fruit doesn't desire anyone to die.
Yes, I know. Most Muslims are good and law-abiding people who desire peace, health for their families, safety and security.
Ah, we're on a agreement path if you admit that these people are not to be provoqued to wrath. I happened to dine in a muslim restaurant (Morrocan Couscous is really delicious) when Ariel Sharon was showed stepping on the Jerusalem Mosquee Plazza on TV, most of the muslims were madly furious, and their fury turned at USA too, when Sharon was so well received by Bush in Washington and in his ranch.
Now, I've always said that antiterrorist struggle was the intelligence services job. That is using all means, stealth assassinations, corruption, edition of compromising photomontages showing fundy islamic preachers with hoars, this is a mercyless and silent fight to lead on.
Being openly tough is counterproductive, that's just inner propaganda bullshit.
I wear glasses.
With our very costly Social Insurance system, an ophtamolgist visit and the eyeglasses making will cost about 50$, unless you want to have a fashionable mark.
I don't know your age,
I'm old enough to remember napalm and orange agent spread over the fellows of the country I was born in.
This has not made of me an antiamerican one because so many US young people demonstrated againts that war.
Of course, you'll tell me it's all America's fault. Sure, and the Spanish Inquisition of the 1400s was our fault too...right?
--Cindy
Caricaritural answers do not add anything to your argumentation, it would be the contrary, if you are kidding, try to be funny.
Better stay on facts.
*Anything is a pretext for fanatics. Anything. The Iraq war didn't exist in 1975 yet fanatics were hijacking our airplanes, killing civilian passengers and pilots, etc.
The exact rethorics Bush and Blair brain trust invented to avoid further questions about the consequences their politics.
So what turned peoples into fanatics ?
Ask yourself and you get the answers
how do we "change the hearts and minds" of people so completely prejudiced against us? America is evil and rotten, always has been evil and rotten, if something untoward happens in the UK it's -our- fault, yadda yadda, etc., etc.
First and main should be to stop always supporting Israel as if what's good for Israel is good for USA, and remember that Jerusalem is among the holliest places for the muslims too. Sharon on the mosquee plazza rose hundreds thousand volunteers to be human bombs.
While Israel gives back Gaza, what muslims see is that Israel still extends its territory on west bank stealing palestinian soils.
Then, stopping to think that USA, or France for froggies, are models that can be spread the world over, as USA are trying to impose "democracy" in middle East countries with tribal traditions and family share, then realize that seen by TV screens through US TV serials and TV movies, USA is a model of cynism, violence and gun loving, money and power greed.
LO
I believe where Bill is coming from is pointing out the continuing PR disaster that is the War on Terrorism.
"War on Terrorism" is among the most stupid concepts I've ever heard,
there are terrorisms, Kurds are supposed to be US allies in Iraq and support PKK terrorism against Turkey, member of Nato.
Palestinian and Saddam's intelligence services helped french intelligence services against Iran and Syria inspired terrorists in Lebanon, the same Palestinians being terrorists at Israel.
In Europe, we have IRA, ETA and corsican terrorists with no links with islamist terrorists.
In SriLanka, there is a tamul terrorism, with no religious, just potlitic purposes.
In Kashmir, anti-indian terrorism, very close to the Talibans, formerly supported by Pakistan leaders.
Algerian islamist terrorists set attacks in France much before bin Laden became a leading figure in terrorism.
US administration taking "terror" as a whole acts a an elephant in a porcelain shop.
LO
@ecrasez_l_infame
I don't live in some clean WASP country town far from any muslim, I'm not lost in theories.
My neibourgs are from all parts of the world, and there is a synagogue at the very corner or my avenue.
I live in Paris where we had our terrorist attacks, and we wait for some more terrorists attacks at any moment.
Each day, there are metro traffic stops and alarms for some forgotten luggage.
I feel as a global world citizen and side with everyone one living in megalopolis.
This is my avenue on bric à brac market day
He is my fruits and vegetables retailer, he's a muslim, and among the best men I know.
When he has seen you twice, you're his brother
"you've got no money, never mind, pay me when you can, in'sh'Allah"
You're attempting to portray the British cops as cold-blooded butchers.
NO ! I like the british cops much better than our "flics"
Precisely, theses police officers lost their cold blood, and I do comdemn the shoot-at-the-head orders given to them.
I live within two hours from London I guess I know it better than you, I know where Sheperd Bush is for having taken the metro there.
Siding with NewYorkers or Londoners do not oblige me to side with stupid orders or stupid politics.
LO
Don't you think that a man that has decided to commit a suicide trying to kill as many as possible round him would be fu..ing calm and would have seen police officers running at him with some sardonic smile while activating his bomb ?
LO
*DonPanic, would you have preferred the police simply let this man get away? What if he HAD been a bomber and 10 seconds later had detonated his explosives? To attempt to merely physically apprehend and take him down would have taken a lot more time -- time in which he might have blown himself and lots of other people up.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, don't they? The lives and safety of many other people were potentially at great risk.
We can't expect the police to be psychics. They couldn't read this man's mind.
The police have to be given a bit of slack. They aren't perfect; no one is.
--Cindy
P.S.:
Grypd: He had entered the UK on a student visa but this had run out more than 2 years ago.
This meant he was here illegally
*And so this situation could have been entirely avoided if a) he'd renewed his student visa and b) if he'd stopped running when the police commanded him to do so. He is ultimately to blame for the situation.
If you allow to kill people for "if"s and "may be"s you allow to kill anyone for any reason.
The man had been caught and kept on the ground by two police officers while the third one fired. I'ts merely an execution.
They where in civilian clothes, wouldn't you run if three guys ran at you with guns ?
The facts are that 3 police officers misbehaved and one turned into a murderer.
As for DonPanic's comment about "making Muslims hate us more": Well, should we do everything the radical Muslims want us to do? Should I log off from New Mars never to return (because I'm interacting with males other than my husband) and put on a burkha? If we in the West followed all their religious rules and regulations, would they "like us" then? Give me a break.
When I said it's happy Brit police didn't kill a innocent muslim, does that mean I said you have to be ruled by the Muslims ?
Are Intentions lawsuits in your manners ?
You react strangely with your guts and not your brain for someone who loves lumières.
Me, I get on a train everyday.
I don't, after terrorist attacks in Paris Metro I bought and customized this
by chance, there is no working place, shop or service under a range of 20 miles I can't go by bike from my house in Paris..
I always travel by train for hollidays, french drivers are much more dangerous than terrorists. (8000 killed per year) :cry:
I think that the "shoot at the head" policy is indeed criminal and stupid.
Or you can prevent terrorist attacks by intelligence, or you failed if a human bomb can go downtown; he will blast himself seeing a threat at himself before you can even target him.
If the policemen who shot the brazilian folk where cold blooded as trained police officers are supposed to be, they shouldn't have executed him.
Therefore I disagree totally with these barbaric methods.
"by chance" he happened to be a Brazilian, what if he had been a peaceful muslim ? riots ? retaliations ? more reasons for muslims to hate us ?
LO
I don't mind going to London even with terrorists' threat, but if is added a mad non uniformed cops threat, I'll go elsewhere.
* Ô lord, do protect me from my friends, I'm taking care of my ennemies...
LO
Hmmm, one French voter for President Clark? Not sure how far that will get me, but it is a start!
Not far at all, french voter sees too much of an Alpha dominant male chimpanzee behaviour :shock: masked behind a varnish of civilization and of technologies...
UK Police: Man Killed Unrelated to Probe
LONDON - The man shot and killed on a subway car by London police in front of horrified commuters apparently had nothing to do with this month's bombings on the city's transit system, police said Saturday in expressing their "regrets." .
So, the guy ran because he didn't pay, a very petty crime. The police were in a psychotic "everyone is a suicide bomber" mindset, and the guy was a minority, so obviously he's out of the norm and probably up to no good, yeah, he's going to blow everyone up.
What a messed up situation.
I saw a video the London Police avoid to show again: this man has been shot with five bullets while grabed and maintained to the soil by two policemen.
A policeman a lost his cold blood and executed an innocent from bombing.
The order given to shoot at head suspicious peoples which do not obey at once is somehow a terrorists success : London Police has gone mad.
LO
. Probably about time we nuked a few cities...
BRRRRRRRR
That's exactly what bin Laden supporters are thinking about our cities.