New Mars Forums

I posted this in the "Mars City - Your Vision" thread, but I calculated that New New York could theoretically hold up to roughly 250 million people, New Manhattan alone having roughly 25 million, so I doubt any horizontal expansion would be an issue with it, despite what some, including initially myself, might worry about it.

I think the soil should also be manufactured so that these conditions are all self-replicating, to aid in Terraformation. |

I also wonder how former volcanic activity could affect the soil. On earth, former volcanoes leave behind cooled lava, which make the soil more fertile. (http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/mauisoil/b_andisol.aspx)  This would seem to make such places as the base of Olympus Mons and such planitiae as Syrtis Major Planum. The fertility effect is reduced if the soil is highly-weathered, but on pre-terraformed Mars that shouldn't be an issue. However, the minerals present therein also bind to phosphorus, leaving less of it for the plants, which would require more of it for the colonists. Also, this entire branch of thought assumes that the volcanic activity of Mars is similar to that on Earth, not unreasonable but also not, to the best of my knowledge, certain.

You forget that we also measure heart rate every 6 seconds in order to multiply by ten to get beats per minute.

Which leads to another thing, to play the devil's advocate, against redefining the minute, similar to why redefining the second is bad. Even though a minute is not an SI unit like the second, and therefore its redefinition wouldn't throw completely everything into cahoots, there are still several things defined by it. In addition to beats per minute, the rotational velocity of automotive engines is often measured in rotations per minute, or rpm. Such units would be confused between Earth and Mars.

That is the caveat on redefining any unit of time below that of the day. That's why I'm not enthusiastic of any such redefinitions. If we must redefine one of the three units (hours, minutes, or seconds), though, it should be the minute, as that has the least effect.

I think that NASA video is a good representation of an early Mars settlement, suit and greenhouse issues aside. For the greenhouse, some want hydroponics; I can go for that, but I'd also like to see some tilling of the regolith to aid in terraformation, but that's another conversation.

I think such a hodge-podge would work decently enough in the early days, but I feel roads will become inevitable, even if only as building/block separators, especially with a city of 80,000 as Musk wishes, as such an arrangement with that many people would feel cramped and hostel-like, with insufficient bonds between residents, though it is quite possible that the original setup would survive in the city center, either as a hotel or museum.

The power is similarly fine given the type of settlement; I'm leaning pro-nuclear by the time the city reaches 80,000, but who says we can't have both? The bigger issue would be distribution - assuming above-ground buildings and blocks with their mini-domes, power lines could be put through the domes, but that could be a structural defect and vulnerability. Rather, they could be brought through the connections of the domes - I originally thought of such connections at ground level, where the domes immediately touch, but an underground or overground tunnel system, similar to Minneapolis or as you've said Winnipeg, would work. The power lines could be brought through such connectors, but bringing such high-voltage lines near where the people are is not the best idea.

The truck would be useful for out of city or simply agricultural purposes. The Martian landscape is not the most forgiving when it comes to vehicles, and I doubt many people would be avid drivers unless out of necessity. Perhaps it can be specialized to be a tractor, steamroller, street sweeper, bulldozer, and what have you.

I'm still suspicious of the redefinition of the second. I know it's been done before in simulations, and I know Louis insists that scientists, etc., would still use Earth seconds for SI purposes, but the second ultimately defines so many of the SI units for things not even directly related to time such as the meter, and thence the Newton and the Ampere, Ohm, and Volt, and so much more. The margin of error for seconds is roughly 2.08%, close to the Earth second but noticeably different at large quantities. The margin of error in most of the derived units, especially those not directly derived from the seconds, would likely be much smaller, but all the same nonzero, and thus noticeably different at a sufficiently large quantities. Ultimately, a new second would ultimately uproot the vast majority of the metric system as we know it. Especially in public consciousness, this would likely result in a dual system of Earth-based SI and Mars-based SI. That might be hypocritical of me to say, as I proposed a dual calendar, but it's still something to consider. Otherwise, I like Louis's idea.

Thank you for your feedback, Louis.

1) The way you put it, a colony of initially 400 makes sense. With regards to "the right stuff", trying to control that with children born in the colony is dangerously close to eugenics, but I realize I might have been overly optimistic with reproduction, and few of the colonists in practice would be natives. Especially prior to the layman having any comfort in a harsh environment, most of those willing are either hardcore civilians and/or professional/governmental astronauts. I also took a Mars One view of it being a one-way trip, which, while IMO ideal, is also unfeasible. In practice, I think most colonists would voluntarily return at old age.

2) While true, the resort would likely still want to make some profit somehow. That being said, a debit/credit card, or for the old-fashioned even a Traveler's Check issued in the tourist's native currency, would likely suffice, thus making a currency moot until economic output becomes serious. Criminal penalties often involve fines, but until a currency is developed this can also be simply replaced with a point-rationing system, fines being levied in points.

4) I personally think it'll be based in large part on the dominant nationality/culture of the colony. It would be useful, and indeed natural to those from the Anglosphere, to have common law fill in the gaps of codification, so to speak having common-law mortar with statutory bricks to form the wall of law. However, that leads to such nebulousness as common-law offenses and common-law marriage, which might be abolished by statute. Though, as you said, a lot of it will be dictated by unwritten social norms, as I said earlier.

In conclusion, I thought of a more mature colony, in that stayers are a sizeable part, if not the majority, of the populace, and a more libertarian colony, wherein the colonists are far more individually autonomous, which is indeed an indicator of maturity. I still stand by such a vision, and indeed still think of it as expanding enough such that a single dome would be constrictive, and thus also stand by the small modular dome model, but have pushed back the timeline upon hearing your remarks.

I imagine a city, not necessarily the first on Mars, that is more industrially than educationally based; I'm not saying education won't be important to these colonists, as they'd initially be, or descended from, some of the more educated Earthlings, and such education would be passed on, but the backbone would be less eds and meds and more either natural resources or manufacturing, or a combination of the two. There might also be services to prevent it from going the way of the Rust Belt (although it is on the Rust Planet haha), but ultimately this means that there might be a local University, but one which does not influence local culture nearly as much as in Louis's city. 

This city is otherwise initially almost identical to Louis's city. I'll detail here how it starts to diverge a it matures.

I imagine that, like Louis's city, it would originate under the provenance of a Earth-based consortium that initially finances and controls it. However, it would gain independence, whether by peaceful or violent means here irrelevant, within its first fifty years, as such consortium becomes increasingly distant to local affairs, and thus possibly resented.

As of 20 years since its founding, it would likely have far more than 400 inhabitants, but, unless it's on a rare-on-Earth resource mine, it would likely experience only steady growth, and thus be at most moderately sized by Earth standards, although it would be a contender for the largest on Mars.

I imagine an infrastructure based on a grid system of roads subject to local geography, much like Manhattan and especially my hometown of Chicago. The city would be built for expansion, and thus a single dome would be unsuitable for it. I imagine a series of many modular square domes, usually being one city block in size but often being bigger for agricultural purposes. They would have an entrance on each side, whereby they'd be connected to each other, allowing the city to grow at a natural pace without having to replace an entire dome at certain points. As for buildings themselves, government buildings would be at the center, with industry being at one section and agricultural homesteads at another, with residences placed where suited. It would be mostly, if not entirely, overground, essentially an Earth city on Mars. The government would initially be a Mayor/Governor appointed by the consortium, and post-independence an elected Mayor and City Council, the latter mostly by wards.

Using the five same points as Louis:
a) Money would initially be absent from the colony much for the same reasons as it is in Louis's city; there is little if any external interaction with an outside economy, and a points rationing system would thus be more useful. "He who will not work shall not eat" could very well be a factor in such a system, but I assume that the initial colonists are motivated enough where this isn't an issue. However, as it's an industrial city, there will inevitably be exports from it to Earth, and thus plenty of exposure to the outside economic universe. As such, even if only for the travelers on business trips or tourists, currency becomes a must; in the absence of any sufficiently scarce resource to back the currency, it would almost certainly be fiat, and thus backed by the colony's economy. To be completely honest, however, I think the colony would use the United States Dollar or a similar highly-used currency, at least until "nationalism" makes an independent currency symbolically desirable.
b) Criminal Justice would also not be an issue with the initial colonists, who all know each other, thus making the shame of engaging in criminal justice both a sufficient deterrent and a punishment in its own right to stop most crime. However, as the colony grows larger and people become more distant, some sort of codified rules would be necessary; the actual contents thereof are irrelevant here, belonging rather to the Dorsa Brevia subfora, but such criminal offenses, procedure, and punishments would initially be as in Louis's city, some sort of semi-summary judgment by an executive, until there are enough people to sustain a judicial branch, Department of Corrections, legal profession, etc., thereafter becoming much like on Earth. Whether it would be Common Law, as in the Anglosphere, or Civil Law, as in most of the rest of Earth, would likely be based on the predominant nationality/culture of the colonists.
c) English would likely be used as a lingua franca, as on Earth. Depending on how many nationalities are represented and how diverse they are, a pidgin might develop. Neologisms would also develop.
d) Industries would dominate the culture, being collectively the sole employer other than the consortium or homesteads.
e) There would likely be a far higher proportion of stayers; as they are the Martian working class, and especially if technology allows them to contact loved ones on Earth remotely, there is little if any reason for them to ever return other than on vacation.

I have a couple thoughts.

Since the Martian sol is only roughly half hour longer than an Earth day, it could be that the time of day of Mars would be identical to that on Earth, e.g., a valid time would be 18:07 or 6:07 p.m., as the case may be. This is important if, say, a colony wants to impose a curfew on its residents; no one under the age of 18 shall leave his or her house/room/domicile after 22:00/10:00 p.m. unless for legitimate business, for example. This is particularly easy for the earthling natives to be accustomed to, but that half-hour difference is artificial as Clark says, building up over time, to the point where it could be possible for it to be high noon during "midnight", and vice versa! The colonists could simply, as Rob has put, make minutes and seconds 1.22 times longer, but an issue with that is that the second is the SI unit of time, and redefining it would entail having to redefine, among other things, the speed of light and other SI and SI-derived units such as the Newton and even the meter, thus complicating science considerably. A redefinition of only the minute to be 1.22 times longer would still lead to a 73.2-second minute, which is not an integer, and a rounded-down 73 isn't nearly as easily divisible as 60. On the other hand, the colonists could indeed simply ignore the incongruity and artificiality, and use darkened blinds when the sun is shining (to the extent that it can given Mars's extra distance) at midnight, and artificial lights when it's almost pitch black at noon, but this might be a waste of resources, and especially of energy in the latter case. Which solution the colony chooses in practice will be interesting.

My curfew example above gives the age limit for a curfew of "18", which is meaningless without specifying 18 of what. Obviously on Earth it's implied 18 years, but on Mars that's itself meaningless without a specification of what is defined by a year. If we define it as 18 martian years, that would be the equivalent of a person being in his mid-30s on Earth still being subject to a law intended for teenagers! We could indeed simply reduce the age to 9 or around so, but that leads to the question of how to measure birthdays and whatnot.

Both the time problem and the date problem show there are two options, with both of their pitfalls; make a calendar based mostly on Martian cycles, or one based mostly on Earth cycles. A potential solution, if rather inelegant, is to use two calendars: one Anno Domini, or the Gregorian Calendar, exactly, and the other a calendar based on the Martian calendars, independent of the Anno Domini calendar.
The A.D. calendar would mostly be intended and used for administrative and legal purposes, as well as interfaces with Earth; such years would be marked in statute/law/etc. as "years of our Lord" or something of that effect, such as "the age of majority for this colony shall be eighteen years of our Lord." The Martian calendar, on the other hand, would be used as an Almanac sort of time, with actual relevant seasons that exist on the surface, rather than dates for legalese. These two purposes could eventually lead to some class differences, A.D. possibly being "city time" and the Martian calendar "country time", or the like, though ideally everyone in the colony would learn both. The advantage of this would be that the disadvantages of each respective calendar are balanced out by the advantages of the other, reducing if not outright eliminating the need for compromising either. The disadvantage would be that each colonist would need to learn two dates, each of systems that might not perfectly line up.

Indeed. I personally think a lot of the larger applications, like greenhouse heat, and some of the more essential ones, like the air pressurization apparatus for the colony, would have their own power sources or generators, either exclusively or as backup, either to accommodate their own power needs or as a failsafe whenever blackouts happen.

As for the original question of generation, I'm pro-nuclear for a colony that is mature enough to handle the waste, but I think either solar or a biofuel-powered power plant is the way to go for a small nascent colony.

Thank you all for the welcome. The Mechanical Counterpressure Suit looks like it would be the most feasible, in my opinion. It seems like it is the most efficient and, as is the intent, the most flexible. I thought it could be used, sans life support, as underwear within the colony, much like a union suit or long johns, continuously to avoid having to go through the trouble of donning, but circulation problems seem to put a damper on that, and it would still have to be donned daily due to showering, etc. Nonetheless, outside the colony, it would indeed help with longer expeditions, being limited only by the oxygen available.