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#2626 Re: Not So Free Chat » Aldridge Commission - transcripts online. » 2004-06-17 10:17:00
Experience? The Apollo people are all retired.
Earth to LEO expertise? Zenit has crushed Delta & Atlas in the commerical launch field. Those boosters remain viable only because of US subsidies legitimately paid for national security reasons.
Space tugs? Orbital Recovery is a Dutch company IIRC.
Ion propulsion? SMART and Deep Space One are about tied, right?
Nuclear propulsion? JIMO is too small to be man-rated, is 10 years or more away, and may well need shuttle B/C to get launched.
Nuclear thermal? Are we ahead of the Russians on that? Really ahead?
= = =
Russians flying tourists? That is escaping from a single payor funding source.
Unless money flows into space from private sources, there are no private space ventures. Private contractors selling to the government as the sole customer isn't privatization.
#2627 Re: Not So Free Chat » Aldridge Commission - transcripts online. » 2004-06-17 08:06:43
CEV and Delta IVH or Atlas are not the same thing. Why not put CEV on a Russian booster?
After all, if a Kliper capsule cannot get to the Moon, all Putin and Chirac have to do is tell their engineers to spend some time on the internet looking at CEV schematics and then they can build their own CEV, and mate it to a cheaper Russian booster.
There is nothing Delta or Atlas can do that Zenit and Proton cannot do, and for less money.
= = =
I just read Dana Rohrbacher's comments. Here:
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.htm … ?pid=14407
I was pleased by his statement that he thought America's civilian space needs could be met by American companies forming partnerships with the Russians and Ukrainians.
=IF= American private companies can freely outsource lift needs to the Russians, I am less concerned about the need for shuttle derived boosters.
In summary - - IMHO:
Shuttle Derived beats Delta IVH;
Freely buying Russian/Ukrainian beats shuttle derived;
alt-space trumps all when (or IF) it comes on-line. Many here at NewMars would stress the IF. Elsewhere alt-space Kool-Aid drinking is a bit heavier.
But to give Boeing a monopoly and call it competition or privatization is just stupid.
#2628 Re: Not So Free Chat » Aldridge Commission - transcripts online. » 2004-06-16 13:46:46
Hmmm. . .
If Bechtel or Kimball, Brown and Root set up a wholly owned subsidiary in Kiev or Moscow and Zenit-2 #427 is allocated to that subsidiary which happens to be a US taxpayer entity. . .
Or if KBR leases a Kouru launch pad and that same subsidiary has possession of the R-7 production line for 6 months and thereby "makes" a few Soyuz. . .
Is that "made in America" ??
Ain't globalization grand?
= = =
Why can't a Kliper capsule go to the Moon?
On orbit rendevouz with a lunar lander and service module for propulsion and there you go.
One Delta IVH launch won't be enough to get CEV to the Moon either.
#2629 Re: Not So Free Chat » Aldridge Commission - transcripts online. » 2004-06-16 12:00:57
A quote from pages 30: (If anyone knows how to copy and paste from pdf, let me know!)
First they note the shuttle can carry 55,000 pounds to LEO; Saturn V could carry 250,000 pounds to LEO; and heavy lift EELV (DeltaIVH?) can lift 50,000 pounds to LEO. Then they say:
The missions to be undertaken as part of the exploration vision will likely require a lift capability beyond todays Space Shuttle and EELVs.
Sounds like either SDV or a clean sheet heavy lifter.
= = =
Page 29 - - Shuttle C gets a picture. Mean anything?
#2630 Re: Not So Free Chat » Clone! - I am now a clone » 2004-06-16 11:15:31
#2631 Re: Not So Free Chat » Clone! - I am now a clone » 2004-06-16 10:43:42
Bill is my middle name. Really.
But Ulysses is not my real first name.
U B White?
#2632 Re: Not So Free Chat » Aldridge Commission - transcripts online. » 2004-06-16 10:41:38
In the report, it talks about the prizes- they suggested a Billion dollar prize for getting humans to the moon and sustaining them there for a period of time... as an example, but perhaps as a suggestion too.
Can we fly Ukrainian? Is SeaLaunch American? (Boeing is a partner after all.)
Man-rate the Zenit 3SL and launch Zenit-2 from the SeaLaunch platform and living on the Moon can perhaps be done easily for a billion dollars by the private sector.
Delta or Atlas? Not so sure.
= = =
The problem America may have with an emphasis on the private sector is that the Russians and Ukrainians are already competing with a public-provate partnership that has already lowered launch costs.
#2633 Re: Not So Free Chat » Aldridge Commission - transcripts online. » 2004-06-16 10:37:13
Assuring appropriate property rights? Okay, cool. Now lets try to do that without international consensus. That would be interesting to watch.
Land on the moon, claim it, start awarding contracts. Done. Somehow I suspect other nations would, however much whining they do in public, be looking to get a piece of the action once the US gets the ball rolling.
Thats why the French and the Russians have agreed to launch Soyuz from Kouru.
Putin and Chirac have no intention (IMHO) of letting the space race be a one competitor event.
By the way, assume for sake of argument, the ESA and RSA find a suitable funding source. = IF = meaning its a thought experiment, dude. ;-)
Is there any reason to believe CEV will be capable of anything Kliper won't be capable of? And will CEV be cheaper to develop and launch than Kliper?
#2634 Re: Not So Free Chat » Aldridge Commission - transcripts online. » 2004-06-16 10:27:01
Assuring appropriate property rights? Okay, cool. Now lets try to do that without international consensus. That would be interesting to watch.
It is true that in the 1800s, the grant of western lands to the railroads helped spur the development of the American West. However, the American West was within Washington's right to give away.
#2635 Re: Not So Free Chat » Clone! - I am now a clone » 2004-06-16 10:23:58
Bill White still appears unable to receive private messages. And now Ikonboard as stopped sending them to my AOL account.
So I created a clone. BWhite.
If anyone sent me anything in the last week, I probably did not receive it.