New Mars Forums

The January 2004 edition of "Popular Science" has a 2 page article on repairing the Hubble Telescope using the Orbital Recovery Corporation's tugboat.  It says the tug will cost $110 million and can be ready by 2006.  The tugboat launches from a rocket (I assume the $110 million includes the launch but it doesn't say).  It clamps onto the Hubble and guides it anywhere controllers want it to go.  It could be parked next to the International Space Station so it could be safely serviced there.  The article says the primary drawback to this plan is it costs $245 million per year to pay for the engineers on the ground to keep Hubble going.

My thought is if we have to save money for Bush's Moon/Mars plan, why not pay the $110 million and park the Hubble near the ISS or attach it to it and don't use it for years.  Then it would be available again when there is money to operate it.  This makes far more sense that wastefully dumping it.

My question is how do we start grass roots e-mailing and contacting of officials to get them to change their mind and do this?  I could contact politicians in my state but for Hubble to be saved this will take a huge effort of people doing this.  Can this group help do this?

Brian.

I'm sorry I brought up the subject of life after death in my other thread on Send Astronauts on a One Way Suicide Mission.  I only brought it up to explain that since I've had experiences with it and know life after death exists I don't see it as morally a big deal if astronauts were sent on a one way suicide mission.  We expect spies to sometimes kill themselves for the sake of the mission.  If this is true, then perhaps there are morally accepted suicides (for the sake of a mission in which no other option is practical or best) and morally unaccpeted suicdes (the typical type for depression).    Perhaps people clump them all together.  Perhaps they are morally different and shouldn't be clumped together.

This group is much better at thinking about Mars issues than Life after Death.  I have seen many spirits of people who have died.  It doesn't look like a happy place with angels and people playing harps and everyone having complete full knowledge.  Instead, most of the spirits seem fightened, tormented, some of them are tormentors.  I have no idea if every spirit will be this way.  I doubt it.  I'm sure I'm only seeing the tiniest fraction of them.  The majority I've seen are evil but not all.  Their clothing  style sucks.  They usually dress in formal dark (often Polyester) church type clothing.  I've also seen people who have died about 100 years ago in clothing of that time, such as I saw a fat woman in big black cotton dress of that era.  Never have I seen any of them in Levis or casual clothing.  They are always dressed formally.  I'd be much cooler if they were white robes that glowed.  Perhaps some do but almost never those I see.  They also don't like you to see their face and they don't stay in one spot for more than about a second if they can tell you see them.  They will watch you but if suddenly they realize you can see them you can see the fear that sweeps over them.  One time this happened to a male spirit I saw.  He was so frightened he dove forward just like we would if we were diving into water.  But we would never do that on land since we'd land on our rib cage and it would really hurt or break bones.  He did it in a church.  What was interesting is gravity and all the other forces of physics seemed to react exactly the same to him as they do to us.  I mean he dove forward and fell at the same rate we would.  I saw him disappear before he hit the floor.  So he obviously dove since he was caught off gaurd that I could see him and there was a reaction time to him disappearing and he didn't want to be seen so he dove to hide.  Never can you see through one.  They look just like we do but their matter is different, it is finer.  You can tell they don't belong here since everything else is made up of hard matter, like your arm or a desk.  There are not words in English to properly describe it.  You can see them but their matter is finer.  Does that mean they are like a "ghost" meaning a shadow or faint?  Not at all.  They are as distinct as we are.  There is just something different about them, their matter is finer.  That includes their clothing and everything.  I've never seen one go through matter, such as door or wall.  They appear and disappear.  But they can play jokes on you such as walk a shoe across the floor with no one in it or turn a door nob or open a door or shake a glass full of ice.  I've seen all of that.  Do they reflect in a mirror and do they show up in a camera?  I have no idea.  I've been with people sometimes and they can see the spirits I see.  Other times the people can't see them.  Most of the time I feel them, not see them.  But I still see them more than I'd like to.

When I feel them and not see them I know exactly where they were standing and which angle they were facing.  It is like they leave an auroa my body can feel.  My mother years ago saw a male spirit on the stairs.  I didn't see it since I was in another room.  I walked up the stairs and I knew immediately which stair and which side of the stair and what angle the spirit had been standing.  I said, "Was he standing on this stair on this exact spot looking in this direction?"  She said yes.  That is how exact the built in meter is.  But sometimes I'm consumed in something and not paying attention, such as playing the piano at night in the dark.  I look over my shoulder and jump with a start because there is a male spirit standing behind me dressed in dark formal clothing.  One instant they are there, the next they are gone.  Only one has ever spoke to me and that was my grandfather.  They others say nothing and don't seem to want to communicate.  They seem to be watching, that's all.  And most of them appear at night and not during the day.  It is like the "veil" is thinner at night.  (This is an expression.  You see NO veil.)  I have no explanation why this is.  I know at night radio signals transfer a long way and in the day they don't transfer as far.  I can call them in, push them out.  I don't play with it much since it doesn't seem like something to play with.  I can't call any particular spirit, at least I don't think I can.  All I can do is crack open the veil and see whatever spirits are there.  You wouldn't want to do it since most of them are evil.  Perhaps this is because the good ones are off doing important things.  That sounds like religion talking.  I have no idea.  All I know for sure is what I have experienced.

What bothers me is how easily frightened they are, how scared they are.  Most people who believe in life after death think of Heaven as being a wonderful place.  That is NOT at all what I'm seeing in these spirits.  I can only hope they are in a holding place and it is not Heaven because it does not look nearly as nice as this life.  I mean in this life people are happier and not so frightened and filled with fear.  And we wear neater clothing designs.

I'm not offended at all by people who don't believe me or who don't believe in life after death.  This life is short.  Before long everyone dies and everyone will know there is life after death.  I would just tell you to live this life to the FULLEST because the next existence doesn't look too good!  Ha Ha.  It may just be a temporary holding place but obviously spirits are in it at least 100s of our years or much longer.  It doesn't look too good.

Go back to thinking about Mars.

Brian.

I agree.  If we go to the Moon I believe it will delay going to Mars by at least 20 years.  It'd be nice to do everything but it all takes money and we can't afford it all.  Priorities must be set.  For this same reason, I was against building the International Space Station.  And I was right, so far it has proved to be a huge waste of money.  It is the most expensive thing ever built by humans.  I think the finished price of it will be $100 billion.  They are doing very little research on it.  And the projects are junior high and high school type experiments.  The same for the shuttle.

We got saddled with the dangerous expensive shuttle because NASA gave a price for a good system and the government balked and said can you do it for half that much.  That's what the shuttle is, the cheap system.  But if you look at what it has actually cost to operate, it has been enormously expensive.  I am sorry the astronauts died but we are better off that two shuttle exploded.  That is what it takes for a wake up call.

The best thing that could happen to NASA is if the ISS was destroyed.  They wouldn't build another one nor would it be around to sink money into it.

If most of us are going to live long enough to see man go to Mars, the Moon has to be scrapped, Mars has to be the primary objective of NASA.  Right now it sounds like everything is just talk from the government.  That is better than nothing but still close to nothing.

Brian.

I want to explain why I suggested discussing this one-way suicide mission.  The reason is I know spirits don't end after they die.  For people who believe they do, then a one way suicide mission would be a terrible thing and immoral.

Why I KNOW (versus just believe) there is life after death is I'm one of the rare people who occasionally sees spirits.  It runs in my family on my mother's side and I have it more than anyone else in my family.  Other people have been with me and they've seen them too, or seen what they are doing.  I know at least some of them are people that lived and died because I have seen their pictures in our geneology.  When I was 4.5 years old my grandpa died.  Right after he died he came back and talked to me all night.  The dog knew he was there and barked all night long.  I once was somewhere and watched an elderly woman fall to the ground having a heart attack.  I watched as paramedics worked on her.  I could see her spirit had left her body, it was in the corner of the room looking down at her body.  Perhaps she could have went back into her body but I felt she would not.  Sure enough, I checked and she was pronounced dead on arrival  at the hospital.  This is NOT a fun gift to have.  I'm 39 and am still single because most girls are scared of it.  They don't want to be with me and have a spirit show up one night.  A real tough guy who had been a gang member once stayed a night at my place.  He saw a spirit and it frightened him so badly it reduced him to tears.  After that he never spent a night at my place again.  It's not that it is that scary, it is just people don't expect it and DON'T want to see it and when it happens it scares people.  Many movies have tried to portray this.  They show the "little boy who sees spirits."  I go to most of them and almost all of them get it wrong and are total fiction and Hollywood.  "Ghost" was more accurate than most.

Whether you believe me or not doesn't matter.  You will all die and you will all find out that there is a life after death.  The reason I'm telling you this is so you understand why I would suggest a one way suicide mission.  The reason is I KNOW without any doubt there is life after death.  So I don't see it as a big deal.  I don't want to get into discussions about life after death.  That would be another subject.

Brian.

I read an article in Popular Science the last year or so that told about a new invention which is a tiny networked electronic device that sends data by radio signal to the next device like it and so on until it gets to the server.  Each device can only transmit about 100 yards, so this uses very little power.  They are called something like "dust'" or "motes" or "mites."  Tiny rovers could have one of these in each of them.  It said they will get down in size to ant size.

Brian.

Perhaps Norwegian Oil Well workers are best.  They seem very robust.  They are used of extreme cold and darkness.  Their people used to be pirates!  They eat a lot of fish and a very good diet, which should be good for their heart and health.  The only problem is most Norwegians (and other Scandinavian people) have bad eyesight.

Brian.

If people are sent to Mars to stay long term, i.e. colonize it, what human traits are best?

I believe we need pirates, not Ph.D.s.  We need survivors!!!

The traits that make a good "astronaunt" might not be the same traits that make a good "survivor."  We don't need the brightest people to go there.  We need survivors, highly resourceful pirate type people, perhaps people with no families.  It would be best if they never had children since studies in fruit flies and other animals have shown that if animals can put off having offspring they age slower.  We would need people with excellent genes who age slowly and their minds stay sharp, who are not prone to cancer, heart disease, diabetes or other serious problems.  It would also be best to remove their appendics prior to them leaving.  On a short mission, such as to the Moon, you can send the brightest Ph.D.'s who have none of these traits.  But for a long term mission these traits would be important.

We also need a different "culture" than NASA has bred.  We need people who question decisions, who think for themselves.  I stood in Southern Utah in the cold and dark and watched the space shuttle fly over 3 minutes before it disintegrated.  It was a shock to learn it disintegrated.  It mostly happened because people didn't question decisions.  The pilot never questioned the flight worthiness of the craft because NASA told him it was okay.  The engineers who did question couldn't get their voices heard.  NASA asked for a spy satelite to look at the shuttle but then turned it down so as to not bother the government and make a scene.  It was all too polite, too orderly.  It was like the English Red Coats marching into battle in formation and getting slaughtered by the nontraditional tactics of the American colonists.  That is the character we need on Mars, survivors.  People who tell NASA to "Go to Hell" when necessary.  We need pirates, not Ph.D.'s.  We'll never send anyone dumb.  But we don't want geeks up there either.  Their genes have got to be fantastic.  They have got to be survivors.

To summarize, we need the following qualities:
1)  Survivors
2)  Pirate-like
3)  Questions Authority (A "Go to Hell" attitude)
4)  The best genes  (no family cancer, heart disease, diabetes)
5)  Perfect eyesight (no glasses or contacts)
6)  Never smoked or been around second hand smokers
7)  Preferable if never lived in a large polluted city
8)  Preferable if never had a major sun burn
9)  Must age slowly and live long with a sharp mind
10)  No offspring
11)  No family
12)  No spouse or girlfriend/boyfriend
13)  No unfulfilled dreams on Earth or major ties to anything
14)  Smart
15) Extremely handy.  A "MacGyver" Fix-It mentality.
16) Removed Appendics

Brian.

To everyone who has commented so far on my idea to send astronauts one way (even if it is a suicide mission), Thank You!  I agree with what everyone has said so far.

I have a degree in philosophy and spent a lot of time studying ethics.  This might sound ironic in light of my proposal but it is why I wanted to discuss this idea.

I agree that it would be far better if the astronauts' were given the necessary items to live indefinitely on the planet.  Perhaps they could come back years later or stay forever on the planet.  This would certainly keep the interest in Mars alive while humans are alive on Mars.  It would cause the governments involved to continue to send items to Mars and perhaps more people to Mars.  That is vastly different from what happened when we went to the Moon.  Twelve men walked on the Moon.  They came back heros.  Then they were forgotten, or at least they felt that way.  I heard they suffered alcohlism, divorce, depression, many problems because they had accomplished their big dream in life and had no other big dream that could equal it.  I don't think their return helped us that much.  The interest was high and then died.  If men continued to live on Mars this would keep Mars alive.

I believe our technology is still primitive.  I have doubts that people staying long term would survive.  Things would go wrong if given enough time.  The dust, radiation, cold and lack of a breathable atmosphere would constantly be enemies.  The people might also fight each other if there long enough.  Most certainly there would be deaths on the planet and maybe everyone would die.  I would hope they were doing good science and it wasn't in vain.  It makes me think of the first explorers to Antarctica who perished.  They are still remembered and heros today.  As harsh as Antarctica is, it is only about 2,000 miles from New Zealand (I've lived in New Zealand).  But Mars is so far away that if there was a major problem we wouldn't be able to send supplies in time to save them.  Even if the intent is for humans to live there long term and never return or possibly return a decade or so later, the reality is it would be a miracle if they survived.  But this approach is better than sending them on a "suicide mission."  It might be the same thing, just viewed differently since they have a "slight" fighting chance.  I like it.

I don't buy the argument that we can't afford to send our brightest people there and leave them (if we are just talking a few dozen people).  It sounds good but no one is that smart or important in life.  Everyone is expendible.  The traits that make a good "astronaunt" might not be the same traits that make a good "survivor."  We don't need the brightest people to go there.  We need survivors, highly resourceful pirate type people, perhaps people with no families.  It would be best if they never had children since studies in fruit flies and other animals have shown that if animals can put off having offspring they age slower.  We would need people with excellent genes who age slowly and their minds stay sharp, who are not prone to cancer, heart disease, diabetes or other serious problems.  It would also be best to remove their appendics prior to them leaving.  On a short mission, such as to the Moon, you can send the brightest Ph.D.'s who have none of these traits.  But for a long term mission these traits would be important.

We also need a different "culture" than NASA has bred.  We need people who question decisions, who think for themselves.  I stood in Southern Utah in the cold and dark and watched the space shuttle fly over 3 minutes before it disintegrated.  It was a shock to learn it disintegrated.  It mostly happened because people didn't question decisions.  The pilot never questioned the flight worthiness of the craft because NASA told him it was okay.  The engineers who did question couldn't get their voices heard.  NASA asked for a spy satelite to look at the shuttle but then turned it down so as to not bother the government and make a scene.  It was all too polite, too orderly.  It was like the English Red Coats marching into battle in formation and getting slaughtered by the nontraditional tactics of the American colonists.  That is the character we need on Mars, survivors.  People who tell NASA to "Go to Hell" when necessary.  We need pirates, not Ph.D.'s.  We'll never send anyone dumb.  But we don't want geeks up there either.  Their genes have got to be fantastic.  They have got to be survivors.

Any comments?

Brian.

If we want to go to Mars sooner and cheaper, I suggest we send astronauts on a one way planned suicide mission.  I'm serious.

There would be many qualified people who would sign up for the trip.  There are almost 300 million Americans, not to mention all the billions of people on Earth.  Is it morally wrong to sacrifice 6 people for something of this importance if the people know it's a one way trip and willingly sign up for it?  Consider all the soldiers the U.S. sacrifices for unnecessary wars that pale in importance to sending men to Mars.  As grizzly as it may sound, a human life has a price.  And that price is far, far less than the cost to bring humans back from Mars.

This is simply about dollars.  I'd prefer we bring the Astronauts back.  But at what cost?  If it delays the mission 20 years or 50 years is that delay worth it for 6 lives?  Also, all the billions of dolars spent bringing astronauts back we will have to pay.

Sacrifices have been made all through history.  Is sending men to Mars worth 6 lives?  I say yes.  I say let's go now and let's go cheap!  This option is never discussed.  It should be seriously discussed.

Brian.