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Hi Mr. Dyck,
Another interesting point about that is that Kernal Biologics recently presented at the ISSRDC convention this year about how their genetically engineered mRNA has been shown to selectively target cancer cells. It's still in clinical trials, but I'm sure the presence of treatments like that will help to dispel the fear around telomere experimentation. This will undoubtedly be a hot topic in research going forward, I wonder if in our dialogue we can try to isolate a scientific process to test this? I'd love to work with you on this if you are interested.
Some body cells have to, as they are responsible for regenerating the rest of our bodies cells. Maybe the question we should ask is when do THESE cells stop? Assuming they do and there is a general timeline, that would be the optimum time to do such a treatment.
Mr. Hanson helps add to my point...people with far more resources than us are debating this. I do have some friends who are studying for their masters in microbiology...if you like I can bounce your idea around to them and see what they think?
I am in agreement with Mr. Dyck and Johnson on this. I think Sunday will arguably be the best time for everyone...and to clarify what I meant, when I am on call I may have to step away to deal with a clinical issue. This does not mean that I will not be in the meeting, just that I may have to step away at a moments notice
I've posted before about reversing aging. This is a major theme of science fiction. Some cosmetic manufacturers claim to have products that have some effect, but if they worked those products would have to go through medical approval. None have.
Many of the symptoms of aging are caused by shortening telomeres. That's the ends of chromosomes. Each time a cell divides, 6 base pairs are snipped off. When all of the telomere is gone, the enzyme that unzips a chromosome for duplication cannot latch on, so cell division stops. When this happens, a cell is called senescent. That's Latin for asleep. The cell's metabolism becomes slow, it grows large. It literally becomes fat and lazy. When this happens to too many cells, you age. Furthermore, wear can cause bits of chromosomes to break off. A telomere protects genes from damage, but once telomeres are gone, genes at the ends of chromosomes are subject to damage. Senescent cells malfunction.
Telomeres are a count-down timer. It starts at full length at conception, counts down to zero. When your cells reach zero, they can't divide, cannot produce new cells to repair tissue. There is a disease that shortens telomeres prematurely: progeria. Symptoms show us which features of aging are caused by this. Symptoms:
Slow height and weight growth
A bigger head
Large eyes, which they can’t close all the way
A small lower jaw
A thin nose with a "beaked" tip
Ears that stick out
Veins you can see
Slow and abnormal tooth growth
A high-pitched voice
Loss of body fat and muscle
Hair loss, including eyelashes and eyebrows
Thin, wrinkled skin that shows spots
The body has a means to repair telomeres. If it didn't, babies would be born with the same cellular age as the parent. Meiosis is the special type of cell division that produces a gamete cell: sperm for a man, ovum for a woman. Each gamete cell has 23 chromosomes instead of 23 pairs, a sperm must merge with an ovum for a cell to have enough chromosomes for a baby. Meiosis does a number of things, one is production of an enzyme called telomerase. This enzyme repairs telomeres to full length. So sperm and ovum have full-length telomeres.
So how do we treat this? About 2 decades ago I suggested gene therapy. Humans have the gene to produce telomerase, all we need is to activate it. The only time telomeres are shorted is during cell division, so the gene to repair telomeres only needs to be activated then. It's currently activated during meiosis, let's add an activation sequence for mitosis (normal cell division). I suggested testing this with a laboratory mouse. Shortly after I talked to everyone I could find about this, someone created the "Methuselah Mouse Prize". The purpose is to create a laboratory mouse with significantly extended life span. I guess somebody did listen.
There has been research to give us more information. In 1996 a group in Scotland cloned a sheep. The idea was to produce an expensive pharmaceutical. The drug cost thousands of dollars per gram. Their objective was to add the human gene to produce this into a sheep. To ensure the drug did not affect the sheep's growth, they ensured it would only be expressed (activated) when the genes for milk were expressed. So the drug would be produced in milk, not in the sheep's blood. The sheep would only produce a single digit number of grams per litre of milk. The drug costs thousands of dollars per gram to synthesize, but just go to any grocery store to see how much it costs to produce a litre of milk. This would make production of that drug a lot less expensive. To clone, they took a sheep body cell, remove the nucleus, did their gene modification to that nucleus. Then punched out the nucleus of a sheep ovum, put this modified nucleus in the ovum, then gave it a mild electric shock to start dividing. It worked, however the sheep had an unexpected problem: arthritis. Basically, the sheep aged prematurely. They hadn't applied sheep telomerase to lengthen telomeres before putting the cell nucleus into the ovum. So the sheep was born with its aging clock at the same point as the sheep that donated the body cell. Basically, it was conceived at the age of its parent. Oops! Ok, so the they missed a step in cloning. Ok, that's what experimentation is for. So this tells us that cloning requires applying telomerase before starting the cell to divide. Either before or after putting the cell nucleus in the ovum, but before starting cell division. This reminds us of the importance of telomeres.
We now have an opportunity. COVID vaccines uses a lipid capsule to deliver mRNA. This lipid capsule was developed specifically for gene therapy. Remember how mRNA works. When your body needs a protein, the template for that protein is a single gene on one of your chromosomes. That short section of DNA is opened, a copy is transcribed into RNA, then that section of your chromosome is closed. This strand of RNA is called messenger RNA or mRNA. That strand is taken out of the nucleus to a structure called a ribosome. The ribosome reads the RNA, every group of 3 base pairs encodes for one amino acid. Small sections of RNA called transfer RNA or tRNA carry one amino acid, and have a matching triplet of base pairs. The ribosome matches these up, links amino acids into a chain to create protein. This is how the human body makes all proteins, including telomerase. So rather than gene therapy, what we could do is inject a sequence of mRNA into human cells to produce telomerase. This would not be a permanent change, because mRNA cannot modify your genes. It's only used as a template to create protein. Can we use this to repair telomeres, reset the aging clock back to conception?
The human body has several systems. Bone growth requires growth plates. Those growth plates disappear when we reach adulthood. Any further bone growth is not possible once those growth plates are gone. So don't expect this treatment would cause you to shrink into a baby. The best it could do is reverse aging to the equivalent of 20-something. And there are probably other features of aging that this could not reverse. But it's a major step. Reset a major aging clock.
Vaccine production for Pfizer and Moderna have shown mass production of a vaccine with mRNA delivered by bilipid capsules. The only difference would be the detail strand of mRNA. The vaccines have an mRNA sequence to produce a spike protein for COVID, in the hope the human immune system will produce antibodies to latch onto this protein. Antibodies that trigger the immune system to destroy whatever the antibody is attached to. Instead of mRNA to produce a surface protein for COVID, we could produce mRNA for telomerase. Would that telomerase get into a cell's nucleus to do its job? Or would it only work for a cell that's in the process of division, when the nucleus membrane is dissolved?
Definitely something that could be tested in a lab. It could be tested with cells in a test tube or petri dish. It could be tested with tissue samples. And could be tested with laboratory mice.
This wouldn't stop aging permanently, just one treatment to reverse aging one time. It could be applied more than once, but would only reverse aging each time it's applied.
Hi Mr. Dyck,
Thank you for such an interesting idea and detailed post! In response to your question, I think that this delivery method would be difficult considering that surface proteins and telomerase are going as you mentioned to two separate locations. The COVID 19 mechanism utilized mRNA to directly access ribosomes that are sending their products out rather than in (extracellular spike protein). My understanding as to how this is accomplished (although mostly only from my college education) is in order to to send a protein to the nucleus, it would have to be tagged with a nuclear localization sequence which could be attached to a telomerase end product. You raise another good point by asking about the nuclear membrane, from my understanding proteins are transported through the membrane, such as histones. I found this paper detailing the whole process more, while I have not been able to absorb it entirely due to time constraints in my life currently you may find some use in it:
https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/0092-8674(91)90233-O
Perhaps the same method could be used, but of course this is dependent on protein size, energy cost, etc etc.
The secondary problem which you mentioned was that would this work for somatic vs germline cells. I believe in order to induce the events of this in somatic cells, it requires that we first observe the germline cells to see what mechanism they are acting by. After having an idea of how this works, perhaps it would be possible to induce a somatic cell to do the same. With advances in stem cell biology such IPS cells, the realm of what is possible/what we can induce in a controlled environment is rapidly changing.
I wanted to ask further about the Methuselah Mouse Prize, what were the findings they had? I wonder if they learned anything about this mechanism from their competition.
@SpaceNut thank you for the additional reading material!
Good Evening gentlemen,
I was not able to find a specific mailing address for blue origin, but I have written the address of their company headquarters below:
21218 76th Avenue South Kent, WA 98032 United States
This is their phone number:
1-253-872-0411
Below is a potential resource for people to contact:
Good evening everyone,
Thanks again for everyone who was able to come yesterday! Was a pleasure to chat and listen to your thoughts. I just wanted to quickly follow up our discussion yesterday and inform you that when I went to the playbacks of Dr. Zubrin's presentations, I was not able to find his email. Perhaps someone else will be able to send him an email asking about potential buyers for the drill?
In the meantime, I have assorted my list of leads below, along with their websites for your reference:
- Axiom Space: building first private space station
- SpaceX (for obvious reasons)
- Blue Origin (for obvious reasons)
- Xplore: Commercial space tourism
https://www.xplore.com/xpeditions/mars.html
This company offers individuals the opportunity to plan their own expeditions, perhaps the drill could be used by them as a marketing tool (we have this new drill tech etc etc...could help draw scientific parties with drilling interests who undoubtedly exist)
- AsteroidMining Corp: focusing on mining near Earth asteroids (NEA)
https://asteroidminingcorporation.co.uk
- Offworld.ai: developing autonomous robots for industrial use, drill could be useful to them.
I still think this list could use supplementation from Dr. Zubrin however!
Hi RobertDyck,
My apologies for the delay, like tahanson43206 mentioned I am in the middle of applying to medical schools while working full time, so I have been having a few problems with being as active as I would like to be.
If it's alright with you, please give me today and tomorrow to read over this and gather my thoughts/current research. If you would like, perhaps after doing this I can recount my thoughts to you over a call to facilitate our discussion a bit faster than the forum?
Let me know what you think!
Hi everyone,
I want to recognize and acknowledge the original Technology Needed For Mars thread as the inspiration to my launching this. I hope I am not stepping any toes by doing so, and my reasoning is as follows:
In a conversation with tahanson43206, we discussed the need of new medical devices for Mars that could also potentially used on Earth for commercial applications. This could be anything really, but I think our idea was in essence try to recombine pre-existing technologies in interesting new ways that could potentially be profitable. The forum is essentially a place of discussion and dialogue, and so I want to create a space for people to float their ideas and seek feedback on what could and could not work by drawing on the expertise of others here.
For ex, I have zero training in any discipline of engineering, so I hope when I have a proposal for something that is physically impossible I am gently informed of my errors and why it would not work. Likewise, if anyone has any questions on the medical side of things, I would be happy to offer my thoughts and perspectives as well
I know that currently this is only a place to converse, but my hope is that the conversations that take place here lead to the birth of an idea that can bring a benefit to humanity. I'd hope that the same people in this forum will be able to cooperate and benefit from this personally.
I would like to invite tahanson43206 to kick off the discussion! I will try to return to this thread periodically as I grow more acclimated with the forum.
Confirmed, I will be there 1AM UTC.
Ah, Clinician_Antilles so when do we get to start building the death star.....well in this case RobertDycks large ship...
I have clear at least 350 bandit containing posts thus far.
SpaceNut don't think there are any grants on that one just yet, but rest assured you'll be the first person I call looking forward to reading more of your posts!
Clinician_Antilles,
Welcome to New Mars Forums.
While most of us are painfully aware of the inevitability of our death, some of us feel that everyone counted amongst the living should focus all of their energy on what they can achieve prior to the hour of their death.
Thank you @kbd512 for the kinds word of welcome! Glad to see someone who understands the symbolism and passion behind the phrase.
A thanks to @SpaceNut for the welcome as well!
Seeing as my name is drawing some speculation (I did not know the Antilles islands existed), I thought I'd take the liberty to explain. In Star Wars, there is a pilot who flies with Rogue Squadron named Wedge Antilles. In the books, he's one of the best pilots to exist and he was one of my favorite characters as a kid. Seeing as being a pilot is part of my eventual career pursuit, I thought it would be a fun little reference.
A Zoom meeting is in planning to provide an opportunity for our newest member, Clinician_Antilles, to meet forum members.
The first meeting I'll attempt is with C_A and GW Johnson. Their schedules are in review for any overlap that may exist.
For RobertDyck ... your new Zoom studio set up is noted ... please stand by for a meeting time opportunity.
(th)
Confirmed, thank you to @tahanson43206 for setting this up for us to use! My apologies in the delay in my own response, but the times I would be available are as follows:
Mon-Fri: after 5pm
Sat-Sun: 8am - 11 pm
I would ask that we try to meet this or next Sunday evening for a quick chat regarding the forum, its direction, and ways that I could help fulfill needs.
Hello,
Confirming account logon/registration as Clinician_Antilles.
For SpaceNut re new membership Registration procedure ...
It turns out that the FluxBB web site software will only allow one email address to exist anywhere in the database.
I won't report here in open view the email address you set for the account, but since that address was already in use, it cannot be used again.
Here is the report when I tried to change the email address to another account:
Logged in as TestID1 Last visit: Today 20:38:44Topics: Posted | New | Active | Unanswered
Announcement: We've recently made changes to our user database and have removed inactive and spam users. If you can not login, please re-register.
Info
Someone else is already registered with that email address. Please choose another email address.Go back
I'm not sure what account FluxBB thinks is using that email address, but it might be the new FriendOfQuark1 account I set up recently.
In any case, please note that when you change the ID name, if you change the email address, that address will not work even if the system does not warn you.
The new member will need to have a unique email address in order to receive the confirmation message from FluxBB.
(th)
For SpaceNut ... here is a login from TestID1 ...
So far, so Good!
A test email sent to the account has not arrived. I did look in the spam filter, and did not find it there.
Edit#1: I updated the "real name" and "location" fields
(th)
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