New Mars Forums

Thanks

I wasn't really referring to reuse, but using the materials from the spacecraft. Or parts at least.

They are? Didn't know that, i thought their current goal is the Moon by 2020.

Really cheap access won't happen with rockets imho. The cheapest way is to built everything as light as possible. Inflatable habs are extremely light compared to the pressurized cans.

Agreed, more or less. Experience is necessary, tests are necessary, but a manned landing just for doing a manned landing doesn't add anything constructive to the ultimate goal apart from the manned landing. For robotic exploration, i think after tomorrownight, everything is explored unless you want to dig deep into the surface. And that requires a bit more then just robots.

Why a permanent outpost, probably manned by only scientists on a rotating schedule? Takes way too much energy to ship crew back and forth, and it would increase complexity, mass and costs enourmusly. I know that that is the NASA way and the extremely safest way, but that would take ages and trillions of dollars & euros.

I think i will work my ass of to become multimillionair so i can at least try it my way

Thanks again

Allthough i'm new here, i will jump right into the discussion here if i may. I have been following this board on and off for the last few years.

I never quiet understood why they keep sending up the supplyships and then simply destoroy all the energy and mass that goes with it. They could use it for radiation shielding.  Not to mentio the engines, solar panels and potential habital volume is destroyed.

To Mars. I'm not entirely sure, but these are the forums for the marssociety? If not, i stand corrected. I'm not sure if anyone has seen the mars underground documentary from Dr. Zubrin, but there was a NASA official in it that more or less responded to the mars society as 'it's great to fantasise, but it's different if the nuts have to fit the bolts'. With that i have to agree. Doing the analog missions is fun, but it's not very constructive. For testing waste processing and human life systems, it's not necessairy to go to the arctic.

Another point which i find weird. The marssociety only focusses it's efforts on NASA, at least from what i can tell. NASA has proven after the Moon landings, that it cannot do anything cost-effective. Allthough i admit that i don't know the inner workings of NASA, i do know that it can be done much much cheaper the private way.

The biggest problem from my perspective is the amount of usable mass you can land on Mars cheaply. I'm not sure if it was on this board, but i can remember that there was someone who rebuilt his sewerpiepes in his own house to recycle all the water and human wastes he made. Though i think it destroyed his marriage, it showed that this is not superscience. We are doing it for ages, and we will be doing it for ages. On Mars, recycling waste is a bit more simple since it's a sterile environment, so the recycling system doesn't have to have a few things that such a device whould have on earth.

Another problem is with Mars missions in general is that we go there for pure science. Yes this is needed, before anything else, but we have sufficient data (especially after tomorrownight) to make descisions for a startupcolony. But, if we keep doing science, there will never be a colony. Scientist don't create colonies, colonists and adventurers do. The problem within this, as we can so on the ISS, is that the science instruments requiere a tremendous amount of energy while the actual energy energy needed to be alive in spac or on Mars, is much much lower.

With that in mind, if i would be a multi-millionaire and would have to spent my money on a Mars colony i would design the first stage on the following requirements and nothing more:
- has to be lightweight, so inflatable design rigidized with pressurized air/atmosphere;
- enough greenhousespace to grow enough food;
- a simply device which can drop seeds and water in the greenhouse for testing purposes;
- led-lights for greenhouses if necessary

You either can send a few people along, but testing it and see if the plants grow is not a bad idea. However, this can be done on earth as well for the most part. On another note, since this is only the most basic of startups (only creating food and recycling everything), the colonists would have nothing to do. Maybe some empty inflatable place and some handmining equipement like a shovel and a pick so they can at least do something.

Second phase would be to send industrial machinery so the colonists could build more livingspace. That would be my only requirement for the second phase. It doesn't make sense to me to do anything else. You simply need the extra livingspace to grow in a hostile environment as Mars is. This phase, i think, is the difficult part. If you want to do it cheaply, you'll have to do it in one launch on a cheap rocket (SpaceX, Dnepr) so that limits your mass. I know you can't make industrial machinery for mass production that light for Mars, but who said anything about mass production. If you could create 2 to 5 additional living spaces in a year is more then enough. Again, it has to be small enough to fit onto a rocket and it has to be light.

Third and nth phase:
Create more industrial equipement for melting iron, creating steel, etc etc. When this happens, energy requirements go up and up. Apart from nuclear power, solar power in orbit transmitted onto the surface is a good choice imo.

I'm sorry if that was (a bit) off-topic.

About a support staff on earth. I think a very small staff on standby is needed at most. If there is a life threatening situation, there would be nothing the support staff can do anyway and since it would be self-sufficient, there would be no need for support staff back home. imo.