New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#1 Re: Terraformation » Tropospheric temperature lapse rate » 2014-07-01 12:29:23

Josh: actually, it's more like I have 2.5 data points (since data available for Titan is still quite controversial and imprecise right now). Unfortunately, it does not seem that we gonna have any more data points in any foreseeable future, so I have to do the vest with what what we've got.

Regarding the units... g is m/s², M is kg/mol and (1/R - 1/cp) is mol·K/J as both R and cp are J/mol·K. Since J = kg·m²/s² the g·M·(1/R - 1/cp) would be K/m. Thus, as the result of ³√(12·g·M·(1/R - 1/cp)) should to be dimensionless, this mysterious "factor 12" would need to be 12 m/K. This might be some relation I do not yet understand, but it could also be just another universal constant, like R or G, for all I know.

More measurements from Titan and some data from outside the Sol System would certainly help, but I cannot dare to hope for that anytime very soon, I fear sad

#2 Re: Terraformation » Tropospheric temperature lapse rate » 2014-07-01 10:58:40

Well, it was more of a blind guess than anything else actually... Basically, I was just looking at ISA and Venus mean values and it suddenly struck me that this relation was very close to the relation between the "speed of sound factor". I've played a bit with numbers and it turned that the relation between cube root of this number and lapse rate was nearly the same. Then I took a look at Titan data, but the relation did not seem to hold. So, I though to myself: "what might Earth and Venus have in common that could matter for lapse rate relation that is very different on Titan?". The obvious answer was g, because otherwise, atmospheres of Earth and Venus are radically different. So, I tried to introduce g into the equation and, I was astounded, when it turned out that factoring the relation by ³√g not only made sense in terms of Titan data, but also got me closer to the relation between Earth and Venus values - the relation was proportional by nearly the same number. I was even more amazed when I realized that this factor was almost exactly the cube root of 12! And I was completely shocked when I approximated this factor to ³√12 and result for Earth turned out to be exactly the ISA lapse rate - down to 2 decimal points precision! The results for Venus still appear to be a nearly perfect match of the actually measured values and the results for Titan seam to work reasonably well considering the scarcity and imprecision of the data we have so far. Probably this "factor 12" has some significance I do not understand yet... but since Earth, Venus and Titan are the only worlds we are currently able to study that actually have tropospheres, I cannot do much better than this for now.

#3 Terraformation » Tropospheric temperature lapse rate » 2014-07-01 04:23:42

agent009
Replies: 4

I've been trying to solve a puzzle... dry adiabatic lapse rate is normally calculated as following:

Γ = g·M/cp

where Γ is lapse rate, g is surface gravity acceleration, M is mole mass and cp is molar heat capacity.

However, if you calculate this for Earth, you arrive at 9.77 K/km, but actual environmental lapse rate, as defined in the ISA, is 6.49 K/km, which is about 9.77 * 0.665. So, I decided to take a look at how this works on Venus and Titan - the only two other worlds in the Sol System that actually have tropospheres.

On Venus (assuming tropopause at 55 km), the average lapse rate is about 7.9 K/km, but the above formula gives you 10.46 K/km, which means that you must multiply the result by 0.756 to get the actual value. On Titan (assuming tropopause at 42 km), actual average lapse rate appears to be around 0.5 K/km, but predicted lapse rate is 1.26 K/km - which gives you the coefficient 0.427. So I've been trying to figure what this mysterious coefficient depends upon - and, I think, I've found it. The following expression gives you almost exactly those numbers (using SI units, that is):

³√(12·g·M·(1/R - 1/cp))

where R is the ideal gas constant. Note, that M·(1/R - 1/cp) is what you must divide the temperature value by to get the square of the speed of sound (I call inverse of this number the "speed of sound factor" because it is constant for any arbitrary gas mixture and gives you the best idea how any changes in atmospheric composition would affect the speed of sound) .

I'm not sure why the heck this works, but the following formula predicts the actual mean tropospheric lapse rates for all 3 worlds with astonishing degree of accuracy:

Γ = (g·M/cp)·³√(12·g·M·(1/R - 1/cp))

For Earth this gives you exactly the standard ISA lapse rate - down to 0.01 K/km precision! For Venus, it predicts the average measured lapse rate with nearly the same degree of accuracy! For Titan, there is somewhat less actual data available and the situation seems to be complicated by the fact that mole fraction of methane apparently varies significantly with altitude, but all measurements reported so far seem to correspond with the result predicted by the above formula at least by order of magnitude.

A coincidence? Well, the lapse rate predicted for Titan (based on 95% N₂ / 5% CH₄ atmospheric composition) would be 0.42 K/km. We'll see if this actually turns out to hold true once more data is available.

#4 Re: Terraformation » Properties of atmospheric gases » 2014-06-30 21:54:26

Josh: I've actually found Midoshi's article on Wikispace while I was doing my research - that's how I found my way here. But, as I commented back on Wikispace, I believe his upper limits for human CO2 tolerance are greatly overestimated, based on various research data I have studied. My estimate is that 25 hPa ppCO2 would be the maximum, provided ppO2 was around the minimum safe levels (~ 160 hPa) and there would be no more then trace amounts of any inert gases other then helium or neon.

#5 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Jovian moons... » 2014-06-30 07:49:59

karov wrote:

agent009, tox & narc - couldn't they be mitigated with drugs?

Toxicity means that the certain concentration of a substance is going to have destructive effect on some cells of your body, and there is nothing short of wearing environmental suit which might possibly mitigate that. Narc effect could be mitigated to some extent, but prolonged exposure to such "mitigation" is probably not very healthy. Studies show that human body cannot adapt to inert gas narcosis beyond its initial biological tolerance limits - not in the short term, at least. Walking on a world with excessive narc factor would be like being perpetually drunk.

#6 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Jovian moons... » 2014-06-29 05:05:26

karov: First of all, do no forget that substance phase depends on both temperature and pressure and that H₂O has anomalous solid-phase curve (unlike with most other substances, pressure increase actually lowers its freezing point). So, under high-pressure conditions, water would be in liquid phase at wider range of temperature conditions, but this does not necessarily guarantee that such conditions would be compatible with human survival.

Secondly, as I have also mentioned, the only greenhouse effect Jupiter might have would come form H₂ and trace amount of compound gases. Helium does not matter since monoatomic molecules of noble gases do not absorb any IR radiations - if you pump a few teratons of helium or neon into Earth atmosphere, that would increase sheer pressure, but hardly rise surface temperature by a single kelvin. So, if your goal is to make the world hotter, any pressure increase you might get from those gases would be completely irrelevant.

Thirdly, Jupiter itself generates quite a bit of heat, but Galileans do not produce much geothermic energy to speak of. So, comparing temperature conditions you have under 8 bar of Jovian atmosphere with conditions you would have on Ganymede under the same pressure and atmospheric composition is not quite accurate.

So, the answers:

karov wrote:

Would we have liquid water temps underneath?

You would likely be able to engineer a high-pressure hydrox-based atmosphere on Galileans which would be compatible with liquid water and, more importantly, with human survival, if you manage to add the right trace amounts of potent GHG to it without boosting toxicity or narc factor too much.   

karov wrote:

Other factors involved which I'm missing?

See above.

karov wrote:

Why G Nordley requires 7-8 BARS (!) on surface, but does not reflect the shear atmospheric mass?

Because it is the the number of molecules of the relevant gases per unit of volume in relevant atmospheric layers that matters, not the sheer mass of he atmosphere. Easiest way to determine this is by estimating their partial pressure values at specific altitude, which may be roughly computed from surface pressure, gravity acceleration, "black body" temperature and mole fractions.

#7 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Jovian moons... » 2014-06-28 05:05:30

karov, chemical composition is very important for both human survivability and greenhouse effect. It is not the sheer pressure of density of the atmosphere that would matter for the latter, but partial pressures of the relevant greenhouse gases - most potent ones (among those that would be breathable for humans to greater or lesser extent) being SF₆, CF₄, H₂O and various hydrocarbons - see GWP values in the table I've posted here for reference (GWP index for H₂O has never been calculated, but it's greenhouse effect is estimated to be, at least, by several orders of magnitude higher than that of CH₄). You get very little greenhouse effect (by several orders of magnitude less then CO₂) from diatomic gases (i.e. O₂, N₂, H₂) and no greenhouse effect to speak of from monoatomic noble gases (i.e. He, Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe). So, if you're looking for greenhouse effect, you would be better of pumping some potent greenhouse gases into your atmosphere rather then increasing sheer pressure of diatomic gases (of which you cannot have too much without bumping narc factor or ppO2 beyond limits that are safe for humans anyway).

However, when speculating about various greenhouse gases, you should also keep in mind their narc factors, toxicity and flammability (the latter two may be estimated from NFPA 704 index values in "H" and "F" columns of my table). CO₂ is a very bad choice since it only has very moderate greenhouse effect, but is extremely narcotic and mildly toxic. CH₄ has better greenhouse effect and is non-toxic - but it is still relatively narcotic and highly flammable (which means, you wouldn't want to mix it with oxygen at any great ratios). N₂O (nitrous oxide, aka "laughing gas") is actually quite a bit better then CO₂ - despite its notorious reputation as potent drug (which it certainly is, but much less so than our good old carbon dioxide) it is much more effective as GHG. CF₄ is an even more potent GHG and has narc factor almost as low as N₂ - but it is mildly toxic, so you wouldn't want too much of that stuff in the air you breath either. SF₆ is about as narcotic as CH₄, but it is completely inert and non-toxic - and it has greenhouse potency by several orders of magnitude greater then anything else that may be safely inhaled by humans in more then trace amounts. Downside - SF₆ is quite a bit harder to come by then CH₄, CO₂ or N₂O.

EDIT: According to my simulations, the most effective greenhouse atmosphere that would be still safely breathable for humans would consist of 64% SF₆ and 36% O₂ pumped under 0.5 bar pressure. You might also want to add about 1-2% of N₂ and about 0.02% CO₂ to that in order to have a self-sustaining Earth-like biosphere.

Your second best option would be 68% O₂, 28% N₂O, 3.97% N₂ and 0.03% CO₂ under 0.3 bar. You would only have a fraction of the greenhouse effect you'd get out of the previous option, but this much nitrous oxide would be much easier to obtain. Do not mind the high NFPA "health hazard" index - it is greatly overrated mainly because of its reputedly high narcotic potency and its oxidizing qualities. In fact, N₂O is no more toxic than O₂ and not really that narcotic compared to CO₂ or Xenon, for instance.

Finally, your third best option is probably hydrox (H₂/O₂) pumped under 8 bar pressure. You would have about 1% O₂ in that mix and some trace amounts of N₂ and CO₂ - the rest being H₂. While hydrogen is not a very potent greenhouse gas, this much of it would probably still have considerable effect and it won't be any fire hazard with so small O₂ fraction (you cannot increase pressure above 8 bar, because H₂ would start having narc effect at point). Advantage - plenty of H₂ on Jupiter!

#8 Re: Terraformation » Rogue super-Earths/mini-Neptunes... » 2014-06-28 01:08:55

Josh: Basically, when a hot cloud of interstellar medium cools down enough to form molecules, any atoms of F you might have there will first form F₂ molecules, but those will readily react with anything they come in contact with except for Ne (though F wouldn't normally form any stable compounds with O, He and heavier noble gases). If lots of S happens to be nearby at that point, lots of different sulfur fluorides would be formed. Most of those would readily react with other stuff to form different compounds, but SF₆ is extremely stable and inert, so any amount of it initially produced would likely stay that way. As the cloud further condenses and cools down (below about 200 K), SF₆ would become solid - so, it would basically be rock under cool enough conditions and a rocky planet could get quite a bit of it. But then, as such ball of rock is heated by either a star or some internal processes, SF₆ would sublimate and form atmosphere - which would be unlikely to escape since those molecules are so heavy.

Nope, not publishing yet, but I'll be there eventually, I hope wink

Void: Noble gases have no greenhouse effect to speak of. Radiative forcing mainly comes from interaction of atoms in a molecule, and you can't have any of that if your molecule is a single atom. Diatomic molecules are slightly better in that respect, but not by much. Generally, the more atoms you have in a molecule and the more atomic weight difference there is between them - the stronger greenhouse effect this will produce. Hence, even CO₂ only has a relatively mild greenhouse effect (as carbon and oxygen are pretty close in atomic weight) compared to hydrocarbons and H₂O. This is also the reason why SF₆ is an extremely potent greenhouse gas - you've got 7 atoms in the molecule and sulfur is so much heavier then fluorine. In the environment you describe, you might get some marginal greenhouse effect from N₂ and H₂, but you shouldn't count on Ne and Ar to produce any. However your overall reasoning seems sound - nitrogen would behave much like water on Earth between 64 and 126 K, provided the pressure stays in 12.5 - 3395.8 kPa range.

#9 Re: Terraformation » Rogue super-Earths/mini-Neptunes... » 2014-06-27 15:07:15

Void wrote:

Although the Neon is heavier than Nitrogen (Apparently)

Not so. Atomic neon has mole mass of 20.18 g/mol. Molecular nitrogen - 28.01 g/mol. Neon, as "noble gas", does not form diatomic molecules as nitrogen does.

JoshNH4H wrote:

A Neon atmosphere would necessitate a large solar system around a cold star, which while not impossible seems unlikely.

Ok, I'm more of a sci-fi writer then an actual scientists - though I do like to write hard sci-fi rather then rely on suspension of disbelief wink For me, "not impossible" means "possible". And since Ne/SF₆ atmosphere certainly makes a more interesting setting then N₂, I assume it is possible until I have a conclusive prove of the opposite.

#10 Terraformation » Properties of atmospheric gases » 2014-06-27 14:52:48

agent009
Replies: 4

Here is a table of some important properties of most common (and some less common atmospheric gases) I've compiled, which could give you some idea when trying to "mix" an atmosphere o terraformed or imaginary worlds. Values for standard Earth air and some common breathing gases are also provided.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jye086s9xpq5whc/SubProp.pdf

A few remarks:

1. Mole mass (M), heat capacity (cp and cv) and narcotic factor (NF) values for an arbitrary gas mixture may be computed as weighted averages of individual components based on mole fractions.

2. If NF × pressure (in atm) value is below 2.5, it sould normally be safe for long-term exposure for humans. This value approximately corresponds to the depth of 60 fsw while diving on air, at which point SCUBA divers might start to experience the first symptoms of narcotic effects.

3. NF values I provide are my personal estimates, as explained in footnotes. Those values may differ from values you might find on the net - most authors seem to use the so-called Meyer-Overton rule (relation of narc factor to lipid solubility) to estimate narcotic factor of a gas, but this is not very accurate. First of all, it has been empirically proven that Meyer-Overton rule does not work for biologically active compounds (i.e. O₂ and CO₂). Secondly, while narcotic factor does seem to be related to lipid solubility for other substances, data obtained from actual experiments clearly demonstrates that this relation is not, in fact, linear, as most authors seem to presume. While inerts gas narcosis still remains a relatively poorly studied phenomenon and I do not pertain to absolute accuracy of my estimates, those mostly appear to correspond to actual data of experiments according to numerous spreadsheet simulations I have run. Values I provided for H₂ and Ne are likely somewhat overestimated (due to insufficient data) and value I provide for CO₂ may have as much as ± 15% error margin (due to the fact that the value assumed for O₂ could have an important impact on the outcome of my simulations in this particular instance). Value assumed for O₂ is basically a mean value of what most experts and divers seem to claim (which would, at least, minimize possible error margin) as the actual scientific data currently available is insufficient to compute a more accurate estimate. Thus far, I was unable to find any data which would allow me to predict (even very roughly) the NF values of C₂H₆ (ethane) and C₃H₈ (propane).   

4. While helium does not appear to produce any effects of inert gas narcosis at depths up to at least 2000 fsw (over 60 atm) and no reliable data is currently available for higher pressure environments, it is believed to cause the condition known as HPNS at partial pressures above 13 atm. While the symptoms of HPNS caused by helium and symptoms of inert gas narcosis caused by nitrogen or hydrogen appear to cancel each other out to some extent, we cannot presume that human body can safely tolerate such situation for prolonged periods of time. Until the further research on the nature of HPNS and inert gas narcosis has been conducted, it is best to assume that prolonged exposures to partial pressure of helium above 13 atm may be hazardous for human health and that "compensating" such effects with effects of inert gas narcosis could present additional long-term risks.

5. GWP and NFPA 704 values are only provided as indicative, since those values are strongly based on the Earth environment and may not be accurately applied to a world with radically different atmospheric conditions. However, GWP values may provide some indication as to relative greenhouse effect the particular gas could have. Likewise, NFPA 704 "H" column may give some indication regarding potential health risks a gas may present for humans (you probably would not want any significant amounts of gases with index values above 0 in a breathing mixture). Since non-zero values in "F" column mean that those compounds would readily produce an exothermic chemical reaction (a.k.a. "fire" or "explosion") with compounds marked as "ox" in "S" column, it is probably not a very good idea to mix such substances with each other at any significant ratios (e.g. mixing hydrogen and oxygen at ratios greater then 4:96 is known to be extremely unwise).

#11 Re: Terraformation » Terraforming the Jovian moons... » 2014-06-27 13:07:53

karov wrote:

7 bars breathable atmosphere would have to have lower then 3 bars N2 and lower then 0.25 bars of oxygen. The balast gases should be heavy and non-toxic - argon which is abundant in Jupiter and the Sun ( and universally ), etc.

Argon won't work as dill under 7 bars since it has two times greater narc factor then N₂. You'd want to use Ne or He (Ne would be better, but He is easier to come by). H₂ would work too under 7 bars since you've got lots of it on Jupiter - hydrox is perfectly safe and breathable for humans as long as your O₂/H₂ ratio does not exceed 4:96 and as long as ppH₂ stays below 8 bars. Methane is a good greenhouse gas and it would not be a fire hazard as long as you keep ppO₂ low enough. SF₆ is the best greenhouse gas you can think of and it is completely inert (almost as inert as noble gases) - but it might be bit harder to come by here in Sol System.

#12 Re: Terraformation » Rogue super-Earths/mini-Neptunes... » 2014-06-27 12:19:17

Terraformer wrote:

Argon is quite common on Earth. Maybe it will be a major component of any Plutoid atmospheres.

Argon is common on Earth for a completely different reason, actually. Most of Ar we've got here is Ar[40] - which is a product of radioactive decay of unstable K[40], of which there seems to be quite a bit in the Sol System (another anomaly?). Most of Ar produced through stellar nucleosynthesis is Ar[36], of which we've got nearly as little as we've got of Ne (which is actually believed to be the 5th most common element in the universe after O, btw).

You should take this into account when speculating about planetary atmospheres in other systems that contain argon, btw... because argon you would most likely have there would be mostly Ar[36], which is about 4 g/mol "lighter" than "common Earth argon" (that's about the mole mass of He and may make quite a bit of difference when estimating air density, buoyancy and speed of sound).

#13 Re: Terraformation » Rogue super-Earths/mini-Neptunes... » 2014-06-27 11:17:49

Josh, abundance of elements other then H, He, C and O (which are, by far, more abundant then anything else) in the Sol System is a purely circumstantial. For instance, we have anomalously high abundance of N and anomalously low abundance of Fe here judging by the estimated relative abundance of those elements in the Milky Way. There is nothing to say that there would be no similar anomalies in other places - thus there could be unusually high abundance of F and S, which would readily react with each other and produce SF₆ (which is one of the most stable compounds of F). Again, especially if we consider nomad planets, they would not be subject to stellar winds as much as planets closer to a star, so they would be able to better hold on to lighter inert elements and chances are, there would be much more Ne in the atmosphere then N₂ (since as Ne is estimated to be nearly twice more abundant in this galaxy). There could also be other factors that would allow rocky planets to hold on noble gases better then Earth, Mars, Venus and Titan managed. Again, as I said, there seems to be anomalously high abundance of N in the Sol System - but, even then, Earth and Titan seem to have gotten the most of it since you haven't got much of it on Mars and Venus (not to mention other rocky bodies). I really do not think we should regard all patterns we observe in a single stellar system as universally applicable.

#14 Re: Terraformation » Rogue super-Earths/mini-Neptunes... » 2014-06-27 08:10:59

karov wrote:

F is expensive.

F is expensive on Earth, and Ne is even more so, since we've got relatively few of that stuff down here. Doesn't mean such would be the case on some other world as both elements are relatively abundant throughout the universe. There is no particular reason why there cannot be a planet with natural Ne/SF₆/O₂ atmosphere (may be with just a little bit N₂ and CO₂ to support plant life). I don't get why people are so transfixed on N₂ as major atmospheric gas when thinking of "habitable" worlds - it's not actually required for life (not in the amounts it is present in the Earth atmosphere at any rate). All it does for humans and other animals is diluting O₂, which would otherwise be poisonous at partial pressure above 0.48 atm - but any inert gas could do that.

If tomorrow, through some bizarre magic or highly advanced alien technology, all N₂ in Earth atmosphere was replaced by Ne or Ar for instance, most humans wouldn't even notice. First people to notice would likely be the pilots, since both air density and speed of sound would change. SCUBA divers would notice pretty quickly too, since Ar is about twice as narcotic as N₂ while Ne is at least 12 times less narcotic. Finally (after a while), farmers would likely notice as well, since plants need ammonia which is produced by special bacteria form atmospheric N₂ - but, considering how little CO₂ it actually takes to sustain the carbon cycle, nitrogen cycle likely wouldn't suffer if even as little as 1% of N₂ was left.

#15 Re: Terraformation » Rogue super-Earths/mini-Neptunes... » 2014-06-27 03:16:20

Terraformer-

Well, aerostats based on "light gas balloon" principle have their merits since they require no power input for lift... How about you replace part of N₂ in the atmosphere with, say, SF₆ (sulfur hexafluoride) - which has more then 5 times the mole mass of nitrogen and lots of greenhouse effect, but is still completely inert and much less narcotic than CO₂ (it is still about 6 times more narcotic then N₂, but you could have up to 25% of it under 1 atm without getting narced - even more, if you replace the rest of N₂ with non-narcotic neon). An atmosphere consisting of 44% Ne, 33% SF₆, 21% O₂, 2% N₂ and some trace amounts of CO₂ would still be perfectly breathable for humans and capable of sustaining Earth-like biosphere under 1 atm pressure, but you would have 64.36 g/mol mole mass (which would give you more then twice the density of Earth atmosphere under the same pressure and temperature) and lots of greenhouse effect.

#16 Re: Terraformation » Rogue super-Earths/mini-Neptunes... » 2014-06-26 15:11:54

JoshNH4H wrote:

Agent009, I am of course aware of that.  However, my assumption was that if the gas giant is in interstellar space, it would be heated from below*. and if the temperature were to be that low at the depth where the pressure was high enough that Hydrogen turns metallic, it would also presumably be quite low at the depths where the Hydrogen would be liquid.

Ok, fair enough... I was basically theorizing about gas giants in general, not just nomad ones.

JoshNH4H wrote:

By the way, as a matter of curiosity but little practical importance, why ATA and not atm?  I've never seen ATA used to represent one atmospheric pressure.

ATA is "atmosphere absolute" which means you take into account the total pressure and express it in Earth "standard atmosphere" equivalent (101,325 Pa) - that is, if you go underwater, ATA means that you are counting both pressure of water and atmospheric pressure that is acting on it. Guess I've just spent too much time on divers' sites lately while doing my research on high pressure effects on humans wink 

JoshNH4H wrote:

Alternatively, you'd have nitrogen oceans under a nitrogen atmosphere, which would be interesting from a physical chemistry perspective because the equilibrium would be very sensitive to changes in pressure and temperature.

It would be even more interesting to have lots of same substance on a planet under temperature/pressure conditions near its triple point (or critical point, if you prefer). But then, conditions Earth (around the tropopause levels) are not that far off the triple point of water... would still be interesting to see such conditions on the surface though - boiling oceans covered with ice!

Void wrote:

Open water oceans?? (Under very very thick Hydrogen atmosphere

It would have to get pretty hot to have liquid water (well, at least around 0 °C) and, considering H₂ has no greenhouse effect to speak of, the planet would have to be pretty close to a star – it would need to have a damn strong magnetic field in order to prevent solar winds from blowing away the hydrogen.

#17 Re: Terraformation » Rogue super-Earths/mini-Neptunes... » 2014-06-26 13:10:48

JoshNH4H wrote:

If the entire gas giant is at, let's say, 15 K (or simply doesn't exceed the critical temperature until you get into the metallic Hydrogen zone), Hydrogen will naturally rain out.  You might actually end up with quite a deep ocean, if the amount of helium is high enough.

Don't forget that the substance phase is a function of both temperature and pressure. A substance can exist in a true liquid phase only if both temperature and pressure are between triple point and critical point values (though it could also exist in solid and gaseous phases depending on particular temperature/pressure values). If pressure is below triple point, the substance will transition directly between structured solid to gaseous phases and vice versa with temperature variations. At pressures above critical point, there will be no clear boundary between supercritical "gas" (which still behaves very much like any normal gas), "compressible fluid" (which would be as dense as liquid but retain some properties of gas) and amorphous (unstructured) "solid" - but there would still be a distinct boundary between compressible "liquid" / amorphous "solid" ans crystalline/metallic solid at some point of pressure/temperature curve. Helium, technically, becomes supercritical at pressure above 227 kPa (≈ 2.3 ATA), though we would never be able to tell it from a "normal" gas at temperatures compatible with human survival.

#18 Re: Terraformation » Rogue super-Earths/mini-Neptunes... » 2014-06-26 11:00:04

JoshNH4H wrote:

Welcome to newmars, agent009!
Interesting post.

 
Thanks wink

JoshNH4H wrote:

I'd always written gas giant aerostats off as infeasible, myself, but I guess I was wrong to do so

Well, that mainly depends on pressure, temperature and exact atmospheric composition. Aerostats would certainly be very inefficient around cloud layers of Jupiter and Saturn, but "hot air balloon" principle could become more effective within the deeper layers (provided you can find appropriate temperature/pressure conditions where hydrogen would still be in gaseous phase). The outlooks on Uranus and Neptune are better, since there is some helium in the atmosphere, and buoyancy effect resulting even from minuscule mole mass difference between that mixture and pure hydrogen would be greatly amplified by high pressure and/or low temperature.

JoshNH4H wrote:

I always wonder about the possibility of hydrogen oceans on rogue planets.  According to some back of the envelope calculations, the radioactive decay energy produced in the earth's core is enough to heat a planet to an average temperature of about fifteen kelvins.  Under a helium atmosphere of appropriate pressure I see no reason why hydrogen oceans wouldn't form.

That would basically depend if you find temperature/pressure conditions somewhere inside those gas balls that would be compatible with the liquid phase of molecular hydrogen and gaseous phase of helium at the same time. Such conditions could, in principal, exist within temperature range 13-32 K and within pressure range 7-1290 kPa (triple and critical points of H₂).

#19 Re: Terraformation » Rogue super-Earths/mini-Neptunes... » 2014-06-26 05:43:09

Terraformer wrote:

Which is good news for anyone looking to colonise the planet itself, since it means there's both more carbon available for building and more buoyancy can be obtained from our hydrogen aerostats (and more lift from our wings).

Yes, it would be very difficult (see impossible) to build an aerostat based on "light gas balloon" principle that would work in hydrogen atmosphere, though "hot air balloon" and "low pressure balloon" principles would work just as fine in hydrogen, given sufficiently high pressure and sufficiently low temperature. But true, "light gas balloon" principle is usually the most efficient, since lighter-then-air lifting gas maintains its volume and density by itself under ambient atmospheric conditions and neither any power input (as with "hot air balloon") nor any particularly strong and heavy support structure (as with "low pressure balloon") is required in order to achieve buoyancy buoyancy. 

Lifting efficiency of a wing, on the other hand, has no immediate relation to the mole mass of the environment - it is mainly a function of the global value of density, airspeed, wing area, wing aspect ratio, angle of attack and gravity (since g has no effect on the lifting force, but lifting force needs to offset weight which is a function of g). The global value of density for gases is pressure * mole mass / (R * temperature) but, as far as dynamic lift is concerned, you do not particularly care how much of that density comes from pressure, mole mass or temperature as long as your density/g ratio is high enough. Efficiency of winged aircraft is also directly related to the speed of sound (which is a function of temperature, mole mass and specific heat capacity) - the higher this value is, the more airspeed (and thus lift) you can achieve without hitting the critical Mach and being subjected to negative effects of reduced lift, wave drag and amplified skin friction (this is also a limiting factor or propeller/rotor blade lengths and RPM rates). In this respect low mole mass is a good thing since it usually results in higher speed of sound under the same temperature (e.g. the sound travels about 4 times faster in hydrogen then in nitrogen at 20 °C). 

Terraformer wrote:

karov, I'm not sure the pressure difference between a trimix atmosphere at 293K will give that much lift in a Helium/Hydrogen/Methane atmosphere, even when said atmosphere is at 50K (would there even be much methane at such a temperature?).

Relying on extreme pressure difference between inside and outside environment might not be a very viable concept, as that would either entail super-strong (and thus super-heavy support structure) or reliance on some dynamic forces (which could lead to a disaster in case of power failure). We are talking more about temperature difference here, which has nothing to do with pressure. Neutral buoyancy equation for gaseous environments looks like this:

m₀ = p[env]·M[env]·V[disp]/R·T[env] - p[L]·M[L]·V[L]/R·T[L]

where m₀ is the mass of your aerostat (without mass of the lifting gas), p[env], T[env] and M[env] are pressure, temperature and mole mass of the environment (atmosphere), p[L], T[L], M[L], V[L] are pressure, temperature, mole mass and volume of the lifting gas, V[disp] is total volume of the environment gas displaced by the aerostat and R is the ideal gas constant (8.3144621 J/mol·K). This comes from the fact that, under constant gravity, total mass of your aerostat must be equal to the total mass of the displaced environment gas and terms on the right side of the equation are merely masses of the displaced environment gas and the lifting gas expressed in terms of their volumes and densities using the ideal gas law.

For all practical purposes, you can consider that the any useful volume of displaced environment gas the same as the volume of your lifting gas, since you do not normally get much useful buoyancy from the volume of gas displaced by solid/liquid substances. Which gives you this:

m₀ = (p[env]·M[env]/T[env] - p[L]·M[L]/T[L])·V[L]/R

Basically, in order to maximize the useful mass of your aerostat (m₀) you would want the mole mass of the lifting gas to be as low as possible and its temperature as high as possible. You do not really want to mess with pressure too much, however - although decreasing pressure of the lifting gas could potentially increase your buoyancy, in practice, it would also oblige you to reinforce the structure and, usually, lead to increase of mass by greater magnitude (and thus nullify any theoretical buoyancy advantage you might have gained).

Now, if your environment gas is mostly H₂/He you haven't got much room to play with mole mass of the lifting gas, though you'd still want to keep it as low as possible - so, you would likely want to use heliox, hydrox or hydreliox as breathing gas inside your habitat. Humans can safely breath heliox under pressures up to about 14 ATA - above that pressure, helium causes HPNS which is likely not healthy in the long-term. Under high pressure, you can also add some hydrogen into the mixture (hydrox or hydreliox) but, for obvious reasons, you do not normally want to mix H₂ with O₂ at ratios greater then 4:96. Hydrox (H₂/O₂) with 1-4% oxygen mole fractions is perfectly safe and breathable and for pressures between 5 and 8 ATA (lower pressure would force you to increase O₂ content above safe ratio and higher partial pressure of H₂ could cause narcotic effect).

Trimix (He/N₂/O₂) would have no real merit for your floating habitats - humans do not really need any nitrogen and it will only unnecessarily increase mole mass of your "lifting gas" (they use trimix on deep dives because N₂ narcosis somewhat compensates for HPNS effects of He, but that's probably not very good health in the long run). If you want pressure above 14 ATA, H₂ and Ne would be much better options for diluting heliox.

Since hydrox atmosphere inside the habitat would give you best aerostatic efficiency, and pressure amplifies lifting effects you get out of mole mass or temperature difference, 8 ATA outside pressure would probably be ideal. So, let's see how heavy you can make hemi-sphere habitat of 1 km diameter filled with 1/99 hydox at 20 °C (293.15 K) in 20/80 helium-hydrogen atmosphere at 8 ATA (≈ 8×10⁵ Pa) pressure and 50 K temperature.

Volume of the lifting gas would be approximately equal to 2/3·π·500³ m³. Mole mass of 1/99 hydrox is 0.00232 kg/mol while mole mass of 20/80 He/H₂ mixture is 0.00241 kg/mol. Thus:

m₀ = (0.00241 kg/mol / 50 K - 0.00232 kg/mol / 293.15 K) × 2/3π × 500³ m³ × 8×10⁵ Pa / 8.3144621 J/mol·K = 1014794730 kg

That's about 1 million metric ton - not bad!

Now let's see how well 10/90 heliox (M = 0.00681 kg/mol) at 2 ATA pressure would perform (we cannot drop the partial pressure of O₂ much below 0.16 ATA if we want humans to live there and even 8/92 hydrox would be already be a major fire hazard). 

m₀ = (0.00241 kg/mol / 50 K - 0.00681 kg/mol / 293.15 K) × 2/3π × 500³ m³ × 2×10⁵ Pa / 8.3144621 J/mol·K = 157244535 kg

About 150,000 metric ton. Still impressive, but would that be enough for a structure of 1 km diameter?

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB