New Mars Forums

Everybody is yepping away around here and does very little if anything, when it comes to actually working on getting to Mars, and I'M impatient... 

You are out of your mind, mein.  8)

Dude, you're totally missing the point and misrepresent what I'm saying. You jsut don't get it.

Just a quick example. I said: The past does not equal the future. I didn't say it's not based on it. Big difference.

Anyway, you will go on believing what you believe, and I will believe what I believe.

blueyes

I REALLY think that it is YOU who is misguided.

Let me tell you something and please pay close attention: The past does not equal the future.

Let me repeat that: THE PAST DOES NOT EQUAL THE FUTURE! Just because something was a certain way, even up to a minute ago, does not mean that it will be, or will have to be, that way in the future.

When I said "off the shelf" I meant off the shelf, as it applies to space technology. Many contractors, and subcontractors are already manufacturing the necessary devices, or have the engineering drawings and know-how, to revive others IF necessary. And since they already are manufacturing them, making more of them would just make the price cheaper. Granted, not by much, since only a few more would have to be built, but you certainly would not have to re-invent the wheel, so to speak.

The mini shuttle has been worked out both in Europe, and in Russia good enough, that reviving them would be no problem. And don't forget... the basics of a lifting body design have been around for a long time. That's what the shuttle is based on and Russia built the Buran, after all. 

And no one said that you would need to build a booster that would dwarf Energia or Saturn. You imply that you know exactly what's needed, in what dimensions, and at what weight, which is crazy. Besides, even when you know what's needed, there are many ways to develope it, even if you have to split the design in two or more blocks.

Scientific instruments... (see above response, regarding "off the shelf").

A suit might have to be MODIFIED, but that's not that much money in the scheme of things. And even a rover, with its hundreds of millions of dollars, can be acceptable.

Bottom line... where there is a will, there is a way. And the way does not have to be just wishfull thinking...

blueyes

All this is your opinion.

I completely disagree with most of what you write, and fully believe that most things can be solved.

All you need is will. YES it is not easy, but it is far from being as difficult as you make it sound. Sorry mein... I think you are a big doozer of a pessimist. From all you write here, you come across as someone who doesn't REALLY want this to happen.

Think about this... What do you think would happen if you just stepped back and let those who believe in a direct to Mars project make it happen? You don't lose anything, and if it really can't be done, you could have the last laugh. Why are you so adamant?  8)

blueyes

... officially open.

Who is in? And I mean business, so those of you who just want to mess around can move along.  8)

First order of business: The name of the entity that will manage the direct-to-Mars project, and what legal status should it have (working with billions and all)?

Second: The structure, and functioning of the entity and the individuals within it.

Third: The writing of business proposals for the purpose of gaining finances to fund Project Pegasus.

Now, GO!

blueyes

You guys... STOP! STOP right now.

You can go back and forth on the question of whether it can be done or not, to eternity.

This is the point: If we could go to the Moon with 60's technology, then no one can tell me we can't do it now with the technology we currently have. And if we can do that, then we can go to Mars.

Second, what separates the "can-dos" from the "can'ts" is belief... And if we "can-dos" believe that we are capable of accomplishing what the nay-sayers say can NOT be done, then we have to show them instead of getting into arguments with them.

When JFK decided to go to the Moon NO ONE believed it can be done, because it was never been done before. But, history showed us countless times that those who single-mindedly followed their beliefs many times showed that what seemed impossible is indeed possible, if one puts his/her mind to it. Pioneers are the ones who advanced this world to the next step, not doubting Thomases.

What we need for us to go to Mars is already available, including the knowledge and technology. All that needs to be done is the will to go forward and the decision to do so. Anything else is just good old fashioned planning and managing.

And, finally, just because NASA (or another government agency, or even a corporation) does something a certain way, that DOES NOT mean that that's the only way to do it, or that it has to cost as much as it costs them. Remember, Japanese corporations practicing Kaizen (Continuous Improvement) reduced the time and effort and money it takes to make cars to a level that's unparalleled in the auto industry. In the meantime the Big 3 were doing business as usual, and look where it got them. It IS possible to do something differently, and most of the time it doesn't take high-tech solutions.

Get this through your thick heads, stop arguing and instead let's focus on moving forward with going to Mars Direct, making it a reality. 

How about a smoke detector-like isotope cell?

blueyes

Alright folks, here I go...

I don't know if this will lead me anywhere, or if me posting here is the right thing to do, but here it goes.

I have read Zubrin's book a long time ago, and it caught my imagination. I am very much interested in space (always had been, since I was a child) and I have a wide field of interest. After reading Zubrin's book I was looking for news on any kind of Mars Direct project, but I don't have to tell you guys that it's slow in coming... Painfully slow.

So, just a few days ago somehow Mars Direct entered into my thoughts again (it was always in the back of my mind somewhere) and it sorta hit me... Mars Direct costs very little when you look at usual space costs (6 billion, according to Zubrin's last email to me) and I realized that such an amount could be covered totally through promotional tie-ins, and sponsorship of companies. Hell, they spend 100 million just for football players, and a project like this would be on an order of magnitude, and in scope, that's incomprehensible in terms of advertising.

So, I casually fired off an email to Robert (Zubrin) pointing this out to him, and he said he would be on board. Then he asked me if I know some individuals who would like to foot the bill. I answered back, that if I did, I would be doing what I love to do, instead of what I have to, and I proceeded to lay out some pointers as to how such a project should be done. I explained that the lead group that coordinates the whole project has to have all their members on the same page and there can not be a rift because of the gravity of the situation. I also mentioned that it has to be done right the first time, because there would only be ONE chance to pull off something like this. If the sponsor's faith is shaken no one will ever be able to convince them again to contribute hundreds of millions of dollars a piece to something like this. For this reason I offered that the best way to manage such a project would be to use the Toyota Production System, which is just a variation on the Total Quality Management System, but the Toyota way is much more effective, so much so that many companies around the world are studying it and are applying it. (And we all know how good the Toyota company is. If you don't, read "The Toyota Way".)

I mentioned several additional things as well... Because of the nature of the current aerospace landscape, Russia would probably play the biggest role in the project due to the fact that they need money and are more willing to assist private enterprises, than, say, NASA... just look at their space tourism "business" to the space station - Russia's.

The Russians also made a deal with ESA to cooperate in French Guiyana (Kouru) as well as on a mini shuttle. The biggest help would/could come from Russia and Europe, them being the "prime contractors". I bet they would even put up some of their own money, since the same technologies they're working on for themselves could be used for Mars Direct, and working with (or ON) Mars Direct would help them realize their own project at the same time, maximizing value for the money.

Most everything can be gotten off the shelf, like space suits (Russian), flight suits (American), space food (American), flight deck (Airbus) etc. etc.

The idea is to K.I.S.S. the whole thing (keep it simple stupid) and to go with things that already exist. Why would you invent a new electrical system when the current one they use on airliners is perfectly acceptable. Why do endless studies to find out how the body behaves and reacts in microgravity, when the practical and scientific experience is already at hand, from years being in space for extended periods of time (Russia)? Yes, you might have to adjust and tweak things, but use and integrate what you have and what has been proven.

Anyway, I don't know if Zubrin is busy right now, or he didn't hear what he wanted to, but I haven't heard from him since.

So, here goes the big question: Do you guys think that there is a way for qualified people here to start rolling the ball? I already called one of the biggest ad agencies and they were actually pretty cool about the idea. They say it could work, but there needs to be a solid business proposal that would show how the companies would benefit from their tie-ins. They DID raise a point about really thinking about, and having, all kinds of opportunities throughout the entire project, because otherwise the only point of really great exposure would be the last couple of months prior to the launch, so companies would have no reason to shell out money before that. And the point came up about the leading group having a unified front, so the project has a strong leg to stand on.

Any ideas?

blueyes